After tonights debates who would you vote for. (Please

I still like the NetZero guy. He sends a good message to our youth.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-04 AT 09:41 AM (EDT)

I have to admit that Kerry won this debate. It wasn't a smackdown, mind you but Bush was never a strong public speaker or debator.Now, the vice presedential debate (Cheney vs. Edwards) will be most interesting to watch indeed: Cheney is a shrewd debator and a veteran politico, and Edwards is a lawyer...As for whom I'd vote for if I was an American, I think I'd still go third party...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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If Kerry won, it was b/c Dubya wasn't quick enough on his feet to catch him in obvious contradictions. My wife and I were sitting at home begging Dubya to call Kerry on stuff that we were catching him in. There were a few times when he came back to it in another question, but George hardly ever called Kerry on things right after Kerry said them. I loved the split screens showing Kerry madly scribbling, but showing George fuming and being exasperated.

Clayton

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Got to give it to Lurch in the style category.
Dubbya had more substance but did miss some obvious chances to smack Kerry down when Kerry told some whoppers right on stage.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Yeah but remember Lurch is a smooth talking, looks cute in a suit, lawyer type who has had 20 years practice in the world's least productive debating club, the US Senate!
Any one that smooth and greasy is IMHO usually up to no good!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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I doubt the debate(s) change anyone's mind about who they vote for. By now the vast majority of us have already decided...and those who haven't are probably not keeping up with politics at all. At this point the debates are merely a formality.Blake Harris
Manager/Engineer, Jefferson and Cypress Bayou Railway
http://www.jeffersonrailway.com

Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies

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Chuck
That's why I gave it to Lurch on style,we all know Dubbya says what he means, does what he says and real beats out plastic everytime but hey, we can let the Moveon types dream for a month till their hopes and dreams of an appeasement prez get crushed smashed and totally destroyed and Lurch heads back to being the junior senator.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Instead, dubbya should go back to his ranch and hunt armadillos while the position of running the country is left to someone more competent.

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Who will outsource the defense of the US to someone like the French???? After getting a permission slip signed by Kofi Anan?
Sheesh!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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"Please no posting please, we will delete this thread at any hint of a arguement"Hint, hint y'all.

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Who's argueing?Lurch did'nt answer any questions.He never does.POS lawyer.He's slick and too many Americans like slick over substance.My favorite part was the "Global Test" the US must pass.Sorry Lurch,it's the other way around.Besides the US can't possibly EVER pass this French/UN test.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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Only one side is following the rules here.

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Now that's a 1st!
Or did you miss the posts from the guy in the outback who mocked 9/11?????But you are correct! This will only spin out of control...
Guys let's not get too partisan here or we will hurt the politically correct feelings of our socialist friends! After all we don't want to tax their minds with the truth do we?
LOL!
(What??? You were expecting me to be conciliatory????)
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LOL!Go get 'em Chuck
Visit-> -

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I heard alot of talk about Kerry being a flip flopper, but after that debate, I am really beginning to doubt his "flip flop" status. Kerry spoke in a strong decisive voice and he looked straight into the camera. When Bush spoke, Kerry wrote down notes and plan his next move. He even said in a strong voice "I will hunt down and kill Terrorist!" Yes Kerry voted yes to go to War on Iraq, but he did not like how Bush carried it out. Kerry answeared most of the question. He acted like a President, he acted like someone who knew what he was talking about. Bush on the other hand spend 30 seconds to a minute saying "ummm" *silent* "ehhh", and towards the end he was sweating. When Kerry spoke he had on this weird looking face. (Yes CNN did do reactionary shots, yes that wasn't part of the deal but get over it.), and Bush just repeated the same ol' song and dance to every question. That just made it paintfully obvious that hes been "coached". If John Kerry was "coached" he did a damn good job of hiding it. Man I can really see Bush's coach saying to him "Do not have any new thoughts, new thoughts are bad for you." As for substance, I'm sorry I'm going to have to give that to Kerry. Why, because he acted like a President, he spoke like a President and he laid out plans for what he would do with foreign policy like a President. Bush tried to play "the guy next door" card. But honestly I would never vote for my next door neighbor. I would vote for someone who KNOWS what hes doing, he knows how the system works and he knows the best way to handle situation. Here are part of the debate that I found intresting.Bush: I went after the people who attacked us (in question to the invasison of Iraq) Kerry: But it was Osama Bin Laden that attacked us...Bush: I know that... (You can see that he was backtracking badly here) Now this brings up a good question. What did happen to Bin Laden? Why do we have Saddam and not Bin Laden? Wasn't Bin Laden responsible for 9/11? Here is what Bush said about Bin Laden.BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_MAIN010917.html...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.htmlSo Bush thinks that just because we got some of his officals the threat has been eliminated. **buzzer sound** WRONG! Bin Laden can and will and have trained other people to take their places. Have we forgotten about the Midrid Bombing? That was Al Queida work! Now this is my FAVORITE Part. The part where we were SUSPOSE to be talking about RUSSIA. Of course with Bush "coaching" being painfully obvious, he screwed this up badly.EHRER: All right. Mr. President, this is the last question. And two minutes. It's a new subject -- new question, and it has to do with President Putin and Russia. Did you misjudge him or are you -- do you feel that what he is doing in the name of antiterrorism by changing some democratic processes is OK?BUSH: No, I don't think it's OK, and said so publicly. I think that there needs to be checks and balances in a democracy, and made that very clear that by consolidating power in the central government, he's sending a signal to the Western world and United States that perhaps he doesn't believe in checks and balances, and I told him that.I mean, he's also a strong ally in the war on terror. He is -- listen, they went through a horrible situation in Beslan, where these terrorists gunned down young school kids. That's the nature of the enemy, by the way. That's why we need to be firm and resolve in bringing them to justice.That's precisely what Vladimir Putin understands, as well.I've got a good relation with Vladimir. And it's important that we do have a good relation, because that enables me to better comment to him, and to better to discuss with him, some of the decisions he makes. I found that, in this world, that it's important to establish good personal relationships with people so that when you have disagreements, you're able to disagree in a way that is effective.And so I've told him my opinion.I look forward to discussing it more with him, as time goes on. Russia is a country in transition. Vladimir is going to have to make some hard choices. And I think it's very important for the American president, as well as other Western leaders, to remind him of the great benefits of democracy, that democracy will best help the people realize their hopes and aspirations and dreams. And I will continue working with him over the next four years.LEHRER: Ninety seconds, Senator Kerry.KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary experience of watching up close and personal that transition in Russia, because I was there right after the transformation. And I was probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith of New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them.It sort of brought home the transition to democracy that Russia was trying to make.I regret what's happened in these past months. And I think it goes beyond just the response to terror. Mr. Putin now controls all the television stations. His political opposition is being put in jail.And I think it's very important to the United States, obviously, to have a working relationship that is good. This is a very important country to us. We want a partnership.But we always have to stand up for democracy. As George Will said the other day, "Freedom on the march; not in Russia right now."Now, I'd like to come back for a quick moment, if I can, to that issue about China and the talks. Because that's one of the most critical issues here: North Korea.Just because the president says it can't be done, that you'd lose China, doesn't mean it can't be done. I mean, this is the president who said "There were weapons of mass destruction," said "Mission accomplished," said we could fight the war on the cheap -- none of which were true.We could have bilateral talks with Kim Jong Il. And we can get those weapons at the same time as we get China. Because China has an interest in the outcome, too.LEHRER: Thirty seconds, Mr. President.BUSH: You know my opinion on North Korea. I can't say it any more plainly.LEHRER: Well, but when he used the word "truth" again...BUSH: Pardon me?LEHRER: ... talking about the truth of the matter. He used the word "truth" again. Did that raise any hackles with you?BUSH: Oh, I'm a pretty calm guy. I don't take it personally.LEHRER: OK. All right.BUSH: You know, we looked at the same intelligence and came to the same conclusion: that Saddam Hussein was a grave threat.And I don't hold it against him that he said grave threat. I'm not going to go around the country saying he didn't tell the truth, when he looked at the same intelligence I did.http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
So at the end, Kerry=1 Bush=0

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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Sean what you and the effete media are missing, You accidentally them on purpose, Is that Kerry always sounds good and decisive when you hear or watch him.... Especially if you only watch one appearance.... He's very convincing...
Just don't watch 2 appearances and compare notes! LOL!He's like a chameleon running over different colored rocks....He also is a loose with the truth as he was again last night....IMHO A very convincing liar.....Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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>Sean what you and the effete media are missing, You
>accidentally them on purpose, Is that Kerry always sounds
>good and decisive when you hear or watch him.... Especially
>if you only watch one appearance....
>I actually avoid mainstream media, because CNN is biased to the left, FoxNews is biased to the right. I basically get my news source from the internet. I also avoid Rush Limbaugh and Micheal Moore. Both of them IMHO need to shut up. I go to Kerry website, and to Whitehouse.gov. One time accident got .com and .gov mixed up but lets not go into that. What you are forgetting Chuck is President Bush performance. I have paid attention to Bush performance since he was "elected" into office. I am not happy with his performance. I am not happy with the way Iraq is going, and I am not happy that Bin Laden (who was suspose to be at the top of the list of most wanted) is still able to roam free. At the beginning of the Iraq War, Bush stated that Saddam HAD Weapons of Mass Destruction. Now hes saying, Saddam had the capability and desire to make WMD's. Which one is it? >He's very convincing...
>Just don't watch 2 appearances and compare notes! LOL!
>I actually followed Kerry since the Democratic began their little competition. I know what he stands for, and he showed what he stands for ever since then, and tonight he once again showed what he stand for.>He's like a chameleon running over different colored
>rocks.... Bush is the cameleon, check out this website about how coloreful Bush can be. http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=118263 >
>He also is a loose with the truth as he was again last
>night....
>Meanwhile Bush tries to do damage control with medicare and national health. Umm, this debate was about FOREIGN POLICY. The Domestic debate is on Friday. Bush can't stay on the subject. He doesn't like to be question and he hates opposition. IMHO, if you are going to shut out people questioning you and your policy, then you are never going to be a good Commander in Chief. Look if something doesn't work and its been proven that its not working, maybe we should try something else? Its like trying to hammer in a nail with a screw driver. This method isn't working, its been proven that it doesn't work. But if you're refusing to use other tools on the table, like a hammer, then you aren't very bright.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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Sean
I went and took a look at that weblink and yes Dubyya has changed some posistions in most cases over several years or due to changing world circumstances(and in the case of the war on terrorisim is winable vs. we can't win the war on terror was just out and out taking the words out of context),there is however a very distinct difference changing ones opinions over time or as circumstance dictates and what Kerry has done repeatedly in the last couple of months let alone years of what ever way the political winds blow go that direction.
Kerry does have a record and I tend not to go with campaign conversions but to look consistantly at what the man has done for years,(1) came home and sold out his "band of brothers" (2) has addmited that he met with the VC reps in Paris(old interview but still Kerry's own words)during the peace talks (3) has consistantly sided with the Soviet Union or Soviet satelites during the 80's (4) voted to kill most of the weapon systems we are currently using.
(5) despite having the allies he claims we need now, voted against the first Gulf War (6)Proposed gutting CIA/intel funding after the first WTC bombing.
Yes Bush has his faults but I've yet to see that Kerry has truly changed, he still lets things slip that he'll go back to a 9/10/01 mode such as his "global test" for US self defense,the fact that he has addmited to being "too busy" to be briefed on terror alert levels but then insinuates that raised levels are politically motivated,consistantly runs down,dismisses and bad mouths our allies as well as currently has his sister running around Austrailia claiming they're targeted by Al Queda and to vote for the candidate that'll pull out of the alliance further trying to rip the collition apart.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Gary,I looked at that site also, it reminded me of something I could never figure out. When Bush went before the 9/11 Commission, why did he have to take Cheney with him? He is unable to answer questions without a script or someone next to him acting as coach?Personally, I still think he's as dumb as a bag of lint. Sean, you are correct. CNN and Fox News have a slanted view, after a while a person can't stand to listen to it anymore. I prefer a straight-forward, unbiased report, such as PBS or 'The O'Franken Factor'.
I'm off to Talladega!Bob

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Unless you're the lead cow, the view never changes

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>I prefer a straight-forward, unbiased report, such
>as PBS or 'The O'Franken Factor'.
>Bob,
If you think PBS and Al Franken are fair, unbiased and balanced have I got a deal for you on a bridge in Brooklyn!
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-04 AT 07:26 PM (EDT)

I'll simply add, it's not like these dabates truly matter: Presidential debates are almost an afterthought in US elections, because by the time their held, most voters have already made up their minds (I'd bet my bottom dollar that everone who voted in this poll would have picked the same choice before the debate), the debates are held in a ridiculous format (one pundit said they're nothing more than "paralell press conferences"), and winning the first debate has no correlation to winning the election: Recall the last 5 winners for the first debate: Gore, Clinton, Perot, Dukakis, and Mondale. Of these, only Clinton won the following election, but then Dole didn't have much of a chance of winning the election anyway...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-04 AT 00:11 AM (EDT)

they both suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CG

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We did try the Global test following 9/11.We failed.We are the big kid in the neighborhood and no matter what we do we will not be popular.Kerry answered nothing.Bush stumbled but spoke from the heart,and unlike a POS lawyer.Kerry used smoke and mirrors.He flip-flopped within the debate.Once the US was attacked,as per long standing US doctrine,we have the right and obligation to act alone.But Bush still went to the UN.The sad thing is that those who stood with us aren't important.I'm not talking Spain here.They're cowards.The Global test.Imagine leaving US national security to France,Russia,China,and Germany.Vote for Lurch and change the name of the US to UN.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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Excuse me, but following 11 Sept, most countries supported the "War on Terrorism". It wasn't until Bush decided to attack Iraq that the support began to fade, not only by those governments, but also by the majority of the citizens of many countries.Of course for me I will not be voting this election. Why throw away my vote when I do not believe in either candidate. Isn't that what the "Right to Vote" is all about, voting for something/someone you believe in? I will say, if Dick and Donald were to vanish off the face of the planet and Bush took Powell as VP, then I probably would vote for Bush. Powell is about the only person in the current administration that I have respect for.Mykel

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I half wondered what Kerry was writing on his "notes." My guess is he wasn't writing anything important, but was rather putting on an act so that he wouldn't get portrayed as Bush did, i.e. with all the funny faces. A good tactic, but that doesn't make him a better president; it only makes him a better debater. I also loved the "heartfelt" story Kerry had to tell about the soldiers in Iraq who had to get body armour as Christmas presents. Guess who voted against buying new military equipment?? Hmmm. . .Bush stated throughout the debate that Kerry called the war a diversion (even after he voted to in favor of the war) and Kerry denied it. Kerry stated several times that he wanted to defend the troops and that he supported them. However, near the end of the debate, he stated that the war was an effort to divert attention from some other political arena (I forget now, and don't have a transcript, but it's in the last 5 questions of the debate if I remember right). Yep, Bush gave us "more of the same" and Kerry's ideas were better thought out. However, Kerry's ideas exist in the world of theory, while Bush's ideas exist in the world of experience. I trust Bush more than I trust Kerry. Kerry seems like a true politician--out to gain popular opinion before making a decision (just like Clinton, I think). Whereas Bush has convictions (even if people don't agree with him) and he makes decisions based on the convictions. Anyway, I think Bush has more to lose by participating in these debates, so I think he has some balls for even showing up.

Clayton

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"Kerry's ideas exist in the world of theory, while Bush's ideas exist in the world of experience. I trust Bush more than I trust Kerry"World of theory? If you want a world of theory, then trust George Jr. to give you one--concocted by draft dodgers like Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney who thought it beneath them to put their lives on the line for their country. The ivory tower neocons who told us that Saddam bombed the World Trade Center, had (or almost had) nuclear weapons, that the peace-loving downtrodden Iraqis would be strewing rose petals at our feet and go to Faneuil-Hall-on-the-Tigris to draft an 18th-century Enlightenment constitution and issue a new reign od democracy in the Middle East. Oh, never admit you were wrong. Just do the same things over and over again and keep expecting different results.Real world? George Bush? Give...me...a...break!PaulS

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Yep, George W. Bush has more real-world experience than John Kerry when it comes to the issues we have been discussing. He's personally talked with leaders in N/S Korea and China, he's had many discussions with Putin, and he has experience dealing with terrorists. His ideas for the future aren't based on some feel-good, sound-good idealistic theories, but real world experience. Want to defend your position that John Kerry's ideas are experience-based rather than theory-based?

Clayton

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>>>I got a deal for you on a bridge in Brooklyn!Sold Chuck! How much and where do I send the check?Still, no answer to my question: "Why did Bush have to take Cheney with him before the 9/11 Commission"?BobTwins take the Yankees in 4 !!

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Unless you're the lead cow, the view never changes

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>>>>I got a deal for you on a bridge in Brooklyn!
>
>Sold Chuck! How much and where do I send the check?
>
>Still, no answer to my question: "Why did Bush have to take
>Cheney with him before the 9/11 Commission"?
>
>Bob
>
>Twins take the Yankees in 4 !!Naw, I think it was Chaney taking Bush with him.....
If I was guessing, I would guess they went together to make sure their testimony agreed....After all the 9/11 commission was anything but non-partisan!Don't believe me? The Clinton appointed Deputy AG who wrote all the rules for the DOJ that prevented the FBI from talking to itself let alone the CIA and who managed the section that ultimately rejected all the search warrant requests for the Al Quida punks already here and of course made the determination that Al Quida was "Law Enforcement Problem/to be prosecuted in court" as opposed to a Military problem was the person managing the commission's inquiry into all that.....
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Chuck, I'm so disappointed with your response, a man with your intelligence. Really!>>>? The Clinton appointed Deputy AG who wrote all the rules for the DJ that prevented the FBI from talking to itself let alone the CIA...<<<Are you trying to tell me the CIA and FBI were the best of buddies and shared everything until Clinton got in office? Sorry, that seems like quite a stretch to me, even from you.You guys have to try and stop blaming everything bad that happens on Clinton and place it where it belongs, in the lap of Bush. He's been in there almost 4 years, the economy sucks (struggling to keep the DJIA above 10,000), jobs suck and health care is beyond more and more people everyday. Almost forgot, the Bush signed another tax cut today, lets add to that record deficit, our kids and grand-kids will pay for it somehow.Have a nice day,Bob

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Well actually they didn't share stuff with each other very often...
However, thanks to Jamie Gorilla, it became illegal under Billary not just distasteful....
What was worse it also became illegal by department regulation for different parts of the FBI to share with each other....
I believe the thinking there was the FBI is so bad and intrusive that we have to protect ourselves against it, even against violations it hadn't done yet.... And oh BTW while doing that shut down the counter intelligence operation against who got the Chinese Intelligence Service political contributions in '92 and '96...Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Bob
Actually a number of the restrictions on both the FBI and CIA went back to the late 70's and 80's to prevent the supposed abuses by both during the Vietnam war in investigating anti war and radical groups.
Jamie Gorrelic(sp?)signed the orders that strengthed the wall by making contacts between CIA and FBI that were legal strictly verboten.You guys have to try and stop blaming everything bad that happens on Clinton and place it where it belongs, in the lap of Bush. He's been in there almost 4 years, the economy sucks Actually Bob if you remember there was talk of the economy heading downward before the election due to Janet Reno deciding to try to kill Microsoft thus killing the tech boom, so Bush inherited the recession(unless you're going to try to say that Bush was so bad that he killed the economic boom in just six weeks)and said economy took several body shots(9/11 and the various corporate scandals)this economy has made a darn good turn around.
jobs suck Bob IIRC the last I'd heard the unemployment rate is 5.4% how come 5.6% unemployment under Bill Clinton is "Hooya! record job records" but .2 under that is depression level jobless claims.and health care is beyond more and more people everyday.That might have a bit to do with the dem's current VP candidate IIRC didn't he make his millions by filing frivilous malpractice lawsuits, belive me a trial lawyer in charge of fixing health care is not a good idea, one can't bring down costs by suing it to death.
Almost forgot, the Bush signed another tax cut today, lets add to that record deficit, our kids and grand-kids will pay for it somehow.Not another tax cut but extending current tax cuts slated to expire in Jan 05 thanks to the democratic controlled senate(thank you Jumpin Jim Jefferts)slipping in sunset provisions into the first tax cut bill(so much nicer to have those taxes automatically go up rather than that nasty business of having to explain to the folks back home why you voted to take more of their cash)among those tax cuts Bush reimplimented was the marrage penalty, yes Bob my wife and I get hit with a higher tax simply because I made an honest woman out of her rather than to shack up and I benifited from those "evil" tax cuts and trust me, I ain't rich by any strech of the imagination.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Hi Chuck,Unstead of clamour against the French, could you please tell your Administration to keep the US nuclear waste at home.
We are not your garbage-can...
You are a great lessons giver, but please keep on living in your small world and let us in peace!Jean-Louis

Make your job seriously, but don't take yourself as serious.

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-04 AT 02:27 PM (EDT)

Oh yeah,all sorts of Nations offered support after 9/11.How many actually helped?Many who did lost their spines as time went on.As James Brown sang"Doin' it and sayin' it are just two different things.No,France is not the US's garbage can.Just garbage.This war has brought out into the open who our allies really are.It makes me all warm inside to know that the billions of dollars lost by Saddam's business partners,France,Russia,China and Germany, will never be recovered.It's you "enlightened ones" that built his palaces and funded his research.Here's a Mig-25 recently uncovered in Iraq.It's a later model and was most likely sold to Iraq by the Russians in violation of the various UN resolutions.It wasn't found until recently,despite the tail sticking out of the sand.I wonder how much more stuff is buried,especially WMD type stuff.And I wonder how much of it has French instructions.http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_200493023.asp

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-04 AT 02:58 PM (EDT)

Lurch doesn't have a theory.What he's got is a bunch of words stuck together to sound good.He's got no plan.Just rhetoric.Now don't get me wrong,I'm only 50/50 on Bush.I agree it was quite idealistic to think that Iraqis would "throw rose petals at our feet."It would be nice if the Iraqis would build a democracy based on Islam.It would be nice if Middle Eastern countries would stop supporting terrorism.Isn't going to happen.Yes Bush is quite idealistic,but so am I.Do I agree with all of his ideals,no.You forget this nation was forged with ideals.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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James,Kerry doesn't need any theory, or any plans. Any theory is better than a bad theory, and no plan is probably better than an absolutely rotten plan. Besides, I don't agree with your assessment of Kerry's plans or abilities. Not that it matters. A guinea pig would have done as good a job as President as Dubya.And I haven't forgotten how this nation was forged. Tom Paine said it better than I could, refreshed and watered from time to time with "the blood of patriots." As far as I'm concerned, most Americans these days are a pack of gutless wonders too concerned about the security of their precious skins and not enough concerned about their hard-won freedoms, which is why they cheer on things like the Orwellian-nightmare "Patriot Act" and other repressive measures in the name of "security."
PaulS
Ex-SGT E5, US Army, Republic of Vietnam, 1969-70

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Well,Paul at least we can agree on your second paragraph.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-04 AT 05:02 PM (EDT)

>Well,Paul at least we can agree on your second paragraph.Not entirely! I see my memory has never been good:"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to William Stephens Smith, November 13, 1787.—The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).EDIT: and let me add that the tyrants we have to worry about are real ones like Osama or home-grown ones. Not pathetic straw-men like Saddam, thank you all the same.PaulS

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I meant we could agree on content.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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>A guinea pig would have done as good a job as
>President as Dubya. Then it's a good thing Al Gore didn't get voted in. . . My guess is things aren't going to get better for the ole U. S. of A. regardless of who gets voted in. People hate us because they hate us, not because of who are leaders are. I'm glad at least Dubya recognizes that. Anybody know for sure which nation has the longest recorded Republic form of government? Wasn't it Rome? Do you remember what the downfall of Rome was? I believe it was expanded anarchy (i.e. the abuse/perversion of Democracy). Only time will tell, I suppose, how long the US will continue to exist. Perhaps the downfall will begin with the new president, or perhaps it has already begun. At any rate, it's a good thing we don't have to rely on government to save us ultimately.

Clayton

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"People hate us because they hate us, not because of who are leaders are"Right you are, Clayton! A sad commentary on human nature, but after all if you're poor and feel powerless, you've gotta hate someone, and why not hate the richest and most powerful nation on earth? Of course, it might be nice if we didn't go out of our way to make the situation even worse...I don't know quite what to make about your comment on Rome. What do we learn from history? Species go extinct, people die, and countries fade away. Will the United States exist in 500 years, let alone a thousand years? If it does, will it be anything more than a name, a country with a monarch, an emperor, a dictator, or a province of some world government? Who knows. It's our business today to make it the best country it can be in our lifetimes, at least.PaulS

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Paulbut after all if you're poor and feel powerless, you've gotta hate someone, and why not hate the richest and most powerful nation on earth? Of course, it might be nice if we didn't go out of our way to make the situation even worse...Poor has little to do with the ideology behind the islamofachists though it does help if one is poor(living in a nation ruled by the fanatics keeping you at a middle ages tech level keeps you poor)and educated only to hate, but remember Osama's manifesto that he released about 2 years ago of things we must do to avoid more attacks that included among other things,get rid of the constitution and impose Islamic law as our legal code,cover our women and agree not to interfere with Al Queda's efforts to impose their will around the world.
By OBL's own addmission our not providing aid to his fellow Muslims or our support of Isrial has nothing other than some window dressing to do with his attcks on the US but has everything to do with the fact that we stand in his way of world domination by Islam(his warped view of said).Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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>Hi Chuck,
>
>Unstead of clamour against the French, could you please tell
>your Administration to keep the US nuclear waste at home.
>We are not your garbage-can...
>You are a great lessons giver, but please keep on living in
>your small world and let us in peace! Uhh, doesn't that waste come from your own reactors, which would come as no surprise, since few (if any) nations get a higher percentage of their electricity from nuclear power than France (including those 5 nuclear plants dedicated to powering the TGV network). Last I heard, the US dumps it's nuclear waste at a place called Yucca Mountain, Nevada...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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What he is referring to is a transfer of weapons-grade plutonium from the US to France. In France, it will be "downgraded" (sorry for the lack of a better word) for use as fuel rods in nuclear power plants in the US. The concern the French people have is the way this weapons grade plutonium is being transferred. It is being transferred on a ship that is not escorted in the open sea. Upon arrival in France, it will be transferred by truck to the de-militarizing facility. The concern is the trucks could be attacked in a confined place (such as a tunnel) and the heat would build up enough to cause radioactive fallout. Sounds like a valid enough concern to me.

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But Mario,according to the French gov't,there's nothing to worry about.And,despite the headscarf law,the French have worked long and hard to appease the terrorists,like the cowardly Spanish.I don't think they'll attack their greatest ally in the UN.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-04 AT 06:47 AM (EDT)

And as far as poor and powerless,poor yes,powerless no.If they were powerless we wouldn't have the war on terror.If they were educated they would hate the Mongols and direct their attention there.After all,the Mongols almost pushed Islam off the face of the Earth.If it weren't for a bunch of white slaves(imagine that)from Egypt called the Mamluks we wouldn't have Islamic terrorism.The hordes were called home to Mongolia to choose a new Khan with a token force left behind.The Mamluks crushed this force and,unfortunately saved Islam.That was the mid 1200's.How far have Muslims come?In Iraq,they have the opportunity to succeed,with help.We have our one flavor of Democracy(for all its faults),the Israelis have theirs.Why can't this happen in an Arab country?Why can't we have a democracy based on Islam?Maybe Islam doesn't allow for it.Maybe some of our friends in the UN don't want it.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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"What he is referring to is a transfer of weapons-grade plutonium from the US to France. In France, it will be "downgraded" (sorry for the lack of a better word) for use as fuel rods in nuclear power plants in the US. The concern the French people have is the way this weapons grade plutonium is being transferred. It is being transferred on a ship that is not escorted in the open sea. Upon arrival in France, it will be transferred by truck to the de-militarizing facility. The concern is the trucks could be attacked in a confined place (such as a tunnel) and the heat would build up enough to cause radioactive fallout. Sounds like a valid enough concern to me."Sounds like a concern the French should take up with their own leaders rather than blaming us for it.

Clayton

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-04 AT 05:30 PM (EDT)

>Hi Chuck,
>
>Unstead of clamour against the French, could you please tell
>your Administration to keep the US nuclear waste at home.
>We are not your garbage-can...
>You are a great lessons giver, but please keep on living in
>your small world and let us in peace!
>
>Jean-Louis Hey J-L you might find these articles interesting...
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041007-123838-3146r.htm
http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/431489|top|10-07-2004::01:46|reuters.htmlFWIW it would appear that there is at least a suspicion that your government, elected leaders and press were personally bribed by Saddam along with those of Germany and Russia....
So if you are not our garbage can, maybe you were Saddam's????
LOL!
Chuck Schneider

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Hi ChuckWho armed Saddam against Iran? Who let Sadamm kill the Kurdes peoples?
And what about Bush and Ben Laden families? Where is Oussama, who armed him against the URSS?Don't blame the others for yours troubles, he who sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind. You are in the process to fall out with a great part of the others countrys by your stubborn attitude.You are living in your bubble and, almost for some of you, don't whant to see what is happening around you. The US administration drive your nation in a no-way avenue, and send your boys and girls to the death for a revealed false reason... There's none so deaf as those who will not hear, and for sure some of you are deaf and blind.Not so LOL many peoples dies and this is not the end!
Jean-LouisPS: about the politicians corruption, it's easyer to look in the others garbage can than inside your owns.

Make your job seriously, but don't take yourself as serious.

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I think the main question that should be asked at this point is, Where is Bin Laden? What has become of our chase of the man that masterminded the attacks of 9/11? Nevermind the Clinton years, lets just pretend (humor me) that the Clinton years never happened (yes but its a stretch, but lets concetrate on the present). Now chew on this. If we have the same amount of troops that we have in Iraq, go after Osama Bin Laden FIRST! The Bin Laden would be in custody by now. My question to the Bush administration is. Where is Bin Laden?

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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>I think the main question that should be asked at this point is,
>Where is Bin Laden?Some have speculated that he's dead. After all, in 2001-2002 he used to release his jihad videos regularly, but now all the new ones are being done by Ayman al-Zawahiri...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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I am pleased to speak with very well informed guys ( they think they are ), but after all may be we don't care about the opinion of fascist guys.
They are of the same kidney than inquisitors, integrists or nazis:
they are the only truth possessors, all the people with a different opinion must be eliminated! Sorry guys but you are on the dark side of the force, in the same train than Ben Laden and others.Jean-Louis

Make your job seriously, but don't take yourself as serious.

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Jean
Excuse me but with all due respect,truth is truth and two towers missing from the New York skyline,a new section on the west side of the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania that still bears some scars are all the truth one need see.
As for comparing us to Nazis, well pardon me for being blunt but there are quite a few graves across France filled with members of the US armed forces and in their memory allow me to remind you that if it weren't for us "lying fachist,inqusitor, allies of Osam Bin Laden" you'd be speaking German.....twice.To the others on this board, my apologies for seeming rude but I've had it with this "blame America first and always" crapolla.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Hmmmm,let's see.Prior to WW2,on paper,the French military was one of the strongest in the world.The Germans invade,there's some early resistance,then the cowards surrender with army intact.The quality of German equipment throughout the war varied.Panthers built in France didn't break down much.There also seems to be considerably more animosity towards American Liberators than German Invaders in France.Those graves are constantly vandalized.The French gov't does nothing.The US gov't should seriously consider relocating those men to American soil.And,don't forget "inquisitors,integrists,nazis",that's all European history.Then Lurch demeans the contributions of our true allies.We do have a coalition Lurch,it just doesn't include your friends.http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc58.htm

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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Hi Gixxer86g,And please tell me where come you ancestors from?
The whole US story started with the Indians People genocide...
YOU are your own worst ennemy because you are using the same method than "inquisitors,integrists,nazis".
End of the conversation...Jean-Louis

Make your job seriously, but don't take yourself as serious.

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//EDITED// Not worthy of a reply!!!PLONK!!Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Chuck
Agreed, lets just hope when the islamofachists in their midst take over in France at some point(with loose imigration policy it's coming at some point) and the call for help goes out maybe we "evil Americans" will just forward the call to the UN.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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I'm not a Brit,if that's what you mean.I'm Irish,a Celt.It seems I've hit a nerve there.It's you who have given us Hitler,Stalin,the Inquisitions,etc.Our ancestors left Europe to escape this distinctly "European" behavior.We left your sorry arses behind,achieved what you couldn't,and most of Europe can't except that.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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>>I think the main question that should be asked at this point is,
>>Where is Bin Laden?
>
>Some have speculated that he's dead. After all, in 2001-2002
>he used to release his jihad videos regularly, but now all
>the new ones are being done by Ayman al-Zawahiri... Of course this is speculation at best. I say keep on hunting for Osama until we have produced a body!

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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But rather information like this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134625,00.html

Clayton

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>But rather information like this:
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134625,00.html Kerry better take advantage of this.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-04 AT 12:41 PM (EDT)

The problem is that Kerry voted for the war based on the same intel that Bush had. BOTH screwed up, though Bush should be held more accountable for the screw up. EDIT: More news/different angle here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6196962/?GT1=5472

Clayton

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-04 AT 05:45 PM (EDT)

Just because they didn't find the stuff doesn't mean its not still buried.There was a massive fish kill in the Tigris a couple of days before the invasion.And how much did he truck to Syria?The problem is we don't know in either direction.That's the angle Bush should have played.We know Saddam was playing us and the UN.We know the UN inspection team was compromised by certain European elements.Bush should have put it like this:"We will never know for sure if we keep counting on the UN teams.We're going in to find out for sure."But instead he staked it all on finding WMD's.Foolish.I don't trust this report.Stuff Saddam buried may never be found.The man is a master deception artist.I think the truth here lies someplace in the middle.
I redirect your attention here:http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/mig25-1.asp

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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Gixx
They do however note that they can neither confirm nor disprove if stocks were moved or destroyed(remember collition forces did discover NBC suits and chem weapon antidote syringes stored near supposed front lines,if you haven't got chem weapons why protect your troops?)but also most of the media(and Lurch) are convienently overlooking the latter half of the report regarding how Saddam had bought off France,Russia and China(so much for Kerry's Global test,not easy to pass when those grading have been bribed to flunk you) to stall off a US invasion and to push for sanctions to be dropped so he could get right back into the WMD business.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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So, basically everyone is angry at France, Germany and Russia because they were making money off Saddam prior to the last war? IE; following the example of the US in the previous decades. Does anyone have any hard facts to support such a hypothesis coming from sources outside the US? Probably not, so this is still speculation at best. Besides, if you happen to remember back far enough, maybe you remember that the majority of the population in France and Germany did not support the war in Iraq either. So, are you saying that Saddam was also bribing the civilians too? I mean, heavens forbid a government might listen to its people. Afterall, most Americans supported the war in Iraq, mainly because the president put 11 Sept, Osama, Saddam and WMD's in the same paragraph. He may not have explicitly made a connection between these, but what he stated was pretty suggestive and left little to the imagination as to his point. Scare tactics. Bottom line, the countries in question made a decision freely. So what if they did not follow the "super power". Does freedom only apply to those that keep in step with the "super power". I don't think so. Freedom exists naturally throughout the universe! If you believe in the principles of freedom, then you should accept the decisions of others even though you may not agree with it. Each and every country has the freedom to decide what is best for their own security. So, my biggest question is, in a world with close to 200 countries and only what, 30 or so in the "coalition", why are you guys not making such a big deal about the other 150+ countries that did not join in the war? What, are you giving them a break because they are not as advanced as us?Mykel

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lol

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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MykelSo, basically everyone is angry at France, Germany and Russia because they were making money off Saddam prior to the last war? IE; following the example of the US in the previous decades. Does anyone have any hard facts to support such a hypothesis coming from sources outside the US? Probably not, so this is still speculation at best. That's basicly the whole UN oil for food scandal,not that France,Germany(though Germany is not implicated in the report so they're actually in the clear)and Russia(Russia gets a pass in my book due to Putin giving us a heads up that their intel ops had discovered Iraq planning to back a terrorist attack in the US) were making money(that's just them looking out for their own national interests) but the fact that their officials took bribes from Saddam with the intent of stringing the US along with the "give inspections more time" song and dance making it look like they were also concerned about Iraq but just wanted more time for inspections when they had absolutely no intention of ever allowing it and delaying action until sanctions could be dropped and Saddam was ready to go back into the WMD business as soon as that happened.Besides, if you happen to remember back far enough, maybe you remember that the majority of the population in France and Germany did not support the war in Iraq either. So, are you saying that Saddam was also bribing the civilians too? I mean, heavens forbid a government might listen to its people. A good number of the populace of those nations are socialists and think the US needs to be knocked down a peg or two, I'd heard something today about a terrorist bombing in Paris so it sounds like that whole appeasement thing is working out splendidly.
Back in the 1930's the US goverment listened to it's people about staying clear of that whole mess Adolf was stirring up in Europe and Tojo was stirring in the Pacfic,it was so far away,lets not get involved,well that attitude came round to bite us in the rears on the morning of Dec 7 1941(BTW we did go to war with Germany even though Germany never attacked us)so in some cases the "will of the people" should be over looked if said will is essentially a suicide pact.
Afterall, most Americans supported the war in Iraq, mainly because the president put 11 Sept, Osama, Saddam and WMD's in the same paragraph. He may not have explicitly made a connection between these, but what he stated was pretty suggestive and left little to the imagination as to his point. Scare tactics.From the intel avalible it looked for all the world that Saddam had a functional WMD program(he brought this all down on himself if he had no WMD but refused to prove it)he'd also actively supported terrorists ,a good number of the worlds most wanted terrorists(most non affiliated with Al Queda but this is a war on terrorists not just Al Queda) were taken into custody when they didn't seem to realize getting out of Dodge might be a good idea when Baghdad fell.
Yes Bush did mention 9/11, not in as "they were responsible for" but in "I'm not going to allow another" even knowing now that Saddam's WMD program was waiting for sanctions to be dropped till it was fired up again but do you honestly belive that he'd have not made sure that some group intent on using such weapons on the US would not have gotten all the support and VX/athrax it could carry?the countries in question made a decision freely. So what if they did not follow the "super power". Does freedom only apply to those that keep in step with the "super power".They made their decision, that's fine, they live with it.
I'd have no problem if they'd simply decided to sit on the sidelines, they instead used every means at their disposal to undercut our efforts and to try to force us to stay on the side lines Freedom exists naturally throughout the universe! If you believe in the principles of freedom, then you should accept the decisions of others even though you may not agree with it. Each and every country has the freedom to decide what is best for their own security.Freedom is the natural state that mankind yearns for, if it existed naturally we'd not be in Afganistan nor Iraq, the natural state is for those of the Taliban's or Saddam's ideaology to impose their will if not for force of arms to hold them at bay.
Yes every country has the right to decide what's best for themselves, France for example,however has ABSOLUTELY no right to try to force the US to adopt their "feed the alligator in hopes it eats you last" ideaology. So, my biggest question is, in a world with close to 200 countries and only what, 30 or so in the "coalition", why are you guys not making such a big deal about the other 150+ countries that did not join in the war? What, are you giving them a break because they are not as advanced as us?Any number of those 150 countries are in no posistion populationwise,any number don't care or have problems of their own.
In all actuality the ones we are causing a stink about are those that claimed allied status with us during the cold war but now backstab us at any opportunity.IIRC in WWII the numbers of those allied countries 12
Gulf War I- number in the coalition 34
Gulf War II 30, geeze just 4 short,could that 4 be the Axis of Weasels? what makes that coallition so much better with the additional 4 that don't want to be there?
Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Thank you Gary.Yes It does seem that appeasement is working for the French.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-04 AT 06:31 AM (EDT)

This thread's boring me.So,I'll leave it with this.A Kerry election scares me.I've said it before.Leadership change is dangerous during time of war.It can go in your favor,like replacing Chamberlain with Churchill.But it usually will be taken as a moment of weakness by one's enemies.Especially if the "new" leader is seen as weak.Which Kerry and most post-Vietnam Democrats are.Let's call Kerry Chamberlain.Let's not go backwards.Those we've ticked off around the world aren't our allies.We don't need them.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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Good wind...Jean-Louis

Make your job seriously, but don't take yourself as serious.

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"That's basicly the whole UN oil for food scandal,not that France,Germany(though Germany is not implicated in the report so they're actually in the clear)and Russia(Russia gets a pass in my book due to Putin giving us a heads up that their intel ops had discovered Iraq planning to back a terrorist attack in the US) were making money(that's just them looking out for their own national interests) but the fact that their officials took bribes from Saddam with the intent of stringing the US along with the "give inspections more time" song and dance making it look like they were also concerned about Iraq but just wanted more time for inspections when they had absolutely no intention of ever allowing it and delaying action until sanctions could be dropped and Saddam was ready to go back into the WMD business as soon as that happened."Has this not only just begun being investigated? Meaning that we do not know 100% what has transpired. Besides, this could be coming from the same people who brought us the WMD fiasco. Just saying we shouldn't be adding gas or water to a fire until we are certain as to what we are dealing with.
"A good number of the populace of those nations are socialists and think the US needs to be knocked down a peg or two, I'd heard something today about a terrorist bombing in Paris so it sounds like that whole appeasement thing is working out splendidly."I have to disagree with this. I will give you that many Europeans probably do not like US government policy, but I doubt those same people have problems with the ideas and principles on which the US was founded upon. You have to remember that Europeans have grown up with a different lifestyle and society than here in the US. They may not agree with how we live, just like we may not agree with how they live. Personally I think the current state of the US has strayed from far from those original ideas and principles on which this country was founded, even before 11 Sept.
As for the bombing in Paris, it seems it has more to do with Indonesia than Iraq.
"Freedom is the natural state that mankind yearns for, if it existed naturally we'd not be in Afganistan nor Iraq, the natural state is for those of the Taliban's or Saddam's ideaology to impose their will if not for force of arms to hold them at bay."Freedom does exist naturally. Saddam was free to take power, to build up his army and force his ideology on his subjects through terror. And why, simply because no one stopped him. Same goes for the Taliban. We live in a country that respects freedom and believes that freedom of its people is more important than government control. Sadly in this country, we are seeing some freedoms slip away. Probably because most people take freedom for granted, over respecting it, and don't want to take any resposibility for having it.Its like with voting in this country, from what I have seen and read, most people seem not to like either candidate. But yet they will end up voting for one simply because they have "the right to vote". Why is this? Afterall, last I remember, the only requirements for running for President was that you are a US citizen and that you are at least 35 years old. It doesn't mention you HAVE to be a millionaire or belong to a party. But yet every year we have only 2 main choices and the American people are happy with this. What ever happened to this being a "Government of the People, For the People and By the People"?
Especially in an election where, at least at Trainsim, people are going to vote for the lesser of 2 evils.I hope that no one takes my questions and ramdom thoughts in a negative way. I am mearly wanting to learn more as to why people think the way they do, and the best way to find out is to pose a question. Though I may not agree with some of the ideas or views posted, I still respect those that post and hope I don't offend anyone. Personally I see these forums as a way to chat in a friendly and respectable atmosphere and hope this is how I am being perceived.
Have a good weekend all!Mykel

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Mykel
Hope you're not taking my comments negitivly,I firmly belive that we can debate and disagree with out being disagreeable, just simply noting some facts that I think you might be just a bit off on, that's all.Has this not only just begun being investigated? Meaning that we do not know 100% what has transpired. Besides, this could be coming from the same people who brought us the WMD fiasco. Just saying we shouldn't be adding gas or water to a fire until we are certain as to what we are dealing with. Actually this has been under investigation for a bit now(I've been hearing bits and pieces since May or June IIRC it's just that the recent WMD report has sort of forced the mainstream media to actually mention it.I have to disagree with this. I will give you that many Europeans probably do not like US government policy, but I doubt those same people have problems with the ideas and principles on which the US was founded upon. You have to remember that Europeans have grown up with a different lifestyle and society than here in the US. They may not agree with how we live, just like we may not agree with how they live. Personally I think the current state of the US has strayed from far from those original ideas and principles on which this country was founded, even before 11 Sept.Actually, in some of these cases these countries feel they are living in the shadow of the US and feel if we were knocked down a peg or out of the picture they could reclaim their former glory, for example take the comments made by Chirac just this last week about the english language "polluting" French culture and bemoaning the fact that American movies are so popular, that is out and out hatred aimed towards the US because, dispite claims by our "betters" US culture is more popular and emulated than his.Freedom does exist naturally. Saddam was free to take power, to build up his army and force his ideology on his subjects through terror. And why, simply because no one stopped him. Same goes for the Taliban. We live in a country that respects freedom and believes that freedom of its people is more important than government control. Sadly in this country, we are seeing some freedoms slip away. Probably because most people take freedom for granted, over respecting it, and don't want to take any resposibility for having it.Ah Mykel, I think I see the problem here, we are using the same words but with slightly different semantics.
I think we are going with you thinking freedom when in reality you mean free will(free will does exist naturally, provided your the one with the guns ala Saddam)whereas I'm hearing freedom and thinking liberty.
Now with the philosophical stuff out of the way actually look into what the Patriot act is and does and what safe gaurds are in place and not take the word of the ACLU(I support BTW) at face value and look back at history during times of war, certain freedoms are always curtailed as one supreme court justice once stated "the constitution is not a suicide pact" the supposed abuses of the Patriot act are nothing but hot air and the parts of the act struck down last week are actually part of a bill passed in the mid 90's(the NY Times had to print a retraction to their Patriot act story)and the parts of the law that the court struck down have nothing to do with the PA(in actuallity those parts that mesh with PA were deemed constitutional.Its like with voting in this country, from what I have seen and read, most people seem not to like either candidate. But yet they will end up voting for one simply because they have "the right to vote". Why is this? Afterall, last I remember, the only requirements for running for President was that you are a US citizen and that you are at least 35 years old. It doesn't mention you HAVE to be a millionaire or belong to a party. But yet every year we have only 2 main choices and the American people are happy with this. What ever happened to this being a "Government of the People, For the People and By the People"?
Especially in an election where, at least at Trainsim, people are going to vote for the lesser of 2 evils.Unfortunately advertising cost money, putting together a staff takes money,yes anyone can run but it does take serious cash but money is not the real problem, ballot access is and that is not just a republican/democrat issue, here in Illinois IIRC during the campaign that gave us George Ryan(the govenor we just prior to the last election, implicted in the licences for bribes scandal,just genrally a corrupt putz)both republican and democrat candidates were so repulsive that there was a very good chance that we might have elected our first Liberitarian Party govenor, guess what? both parties got together and found a judge that found "iregularities" that took all the third parties off the ballot and in this current election cycle one need look no further than Wisconsin(among other states considered close for Kerry)for the democrats trying their damndest to keep Nader off the ballot(can't have those undecided voters voting the "wrong" way now can we?)and bear in mind if having money bears on who you support just remember it's a case of the millionaire(Bush)vs the billionaire(Kerry).
Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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