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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-02-01, 05:41 AM (EST) "Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" It's better than nothing I suppose for people who don't get to run trains, but it's not something I would actually pay for.
Scenery is acceptable, and comparible to current flight simulators as far as terrain and texture.
The operation from the cab gives a very generic experience. The panel has the essential functions, but it's hard to tell how realistically they react from the demo. It does not visually come close to any real engine control stands, and screenshots from upcoming MS Train Sim indicate it's interior views and panels will simply blow Trainmaster away.
The sound is quite decent. Increasing and decreasing throttle sounded pretty realistic to what it actually sounds like from within the cab, and the delays between throttle positions and loading and unloading dynamic brakes is also covered. It won't satisfy a lot of rail buffs who are accustomed to the more throaty rumble heard as a train passes. But if you want realism, you have to go with the muted engine sound. Its sort of like people complaining that they don't hear tire screech when they land a 737. Pilots have said you don't actually hear that from the cabin. It's more of a passenger or external thing. Same applies to trains. We only get to appreciate the powerful engine sound when going through a tunnel. Well, I've officially began to ramble, so I'll wrap up.
If the Trainmaster 4 demo is in fact full functioning as advertised, I'll pass on purchasing the sim. I'm still psyched for MS to get their version on the market. Master Qui-Gon
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Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Nels_Anderson Apr-02-01 1 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-02-01 2 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Nels_Anderson Apr-03-01 4 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-05-01 5 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Nels_Anderson Apr-05-01 7 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-06-01 9 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-06-01 10 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-06-01 12 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-07-01 13 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-07-01 14 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-07-01 15 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-08-01 16 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-08-01 17 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-09-01 18 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-09-01 19 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-09-01 20 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-10-01 21 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-10-01 22 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-10-01 23 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-10-01 26 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-10-01 24 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-10-01 27 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... redryder Jul-04-01 61 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Jul-04-01 62 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... redryder Jul-05-01 63 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Jul-06-01 64 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-02-01 3 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-05-01 6 RE: Independent brake crund Apr-05-01 8 RE: Independent brake Master Qui Gon Apr-06-01 11 Question for Master Qui-Gon Robber Baron May-04-01 36 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-04-01 37 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jimmccarthy May-04-01 38 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-05-01 39 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jimmccarthy May-05-01 40 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jimmccarthy May-06-01 44 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-06-01 45 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jimmccarthy May-06-01 46 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Robber Baron May-05-01 42 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jimmccarthy May-05-01 43 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Robber Baron May-05-01 41 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-06-01 47 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jm1941 May-07-01 48 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-07-01 49 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jm1941 May-07-01 50 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-07-01 51 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Robber Baron May-07-01 52 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-07-01 53 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon jimmccarthy May-07-01 54 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-09-01 57 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Robber Baron May-08-01 55 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-09-01 58 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Robber Baron May-08-01 56 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Master Qui Gon May-09-01 59 RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon Robber Baron May-10-01 60 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jm1941 Apr-10-01 25 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-10-01 28 RE: Old times jm1941 Apr-12-01 31 RE: Old times jimmccarthy Apr-12-01 33 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-11-01 29 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... davereage Apr-11-01 30 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jm1941 Apr-12-01 32 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Apr-12-01 34 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Apr-12-01 35 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... denodan Jul-15-01 65 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... landnrailroader Jul-27-01 66 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... jimmccarthy Jul-28-01 67 RE: Not terribly impressed with Tra... Master Qui Gon Jul-28-01 68

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Nels_Anderson (411 posts)
Apr-02-01, 06:50 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" I've been using TrainMaster 4 since it first came out last fall. I recognize the weaknesses that you mentioned. But one thing I've been curious about is the train physics...does it move realistically? That, supposedly, is one thing that was not new in version 4 but something they've had years to work on even previous to the 3D version. If I understand right, though, you said the demo doesn't allow you to accurately evaluate this?
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-02-01, 01:23 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" That's correct. The few miles they give you on the demo doesn't give you a lot to work with. What I did notice is that the air brakes don't take effect as soon as you apply them. That's accurate. It takes a few seconds after going to idle, before it lets you go after the dynamic brakes. Also accurate.
I hope the full retail version gives a timetable or map so you know where the speed changes are. Going from 60 mph to a 35 mph curve is something you need to know in advance.
Again, it's better than nothing for rail enthusiasts, but I've been spoiled by MS' realism in flight sim with regards to panel and cab views. Plus I know where all the controls should be on a modern diesel, so everything is out of place for me. When you get a bad signal and need to slow down in real life. You don't need to go looking for the controls. I doubt I'll ever go so far as to buy throttle and brake desktop controllers for a train sim, but If they are on-screen in the right places in MS version, I'll feel comfortable with where they are and controlling them with the mouse, although, like flightsim, I'll probably memorize the key commands.
What's really odd with locomotives compared to aircraft...I'm assuming when Cessna or Boeing builds an aircraft, it's identical to the one before and after it of the same model. With modern diesels, the rule is: "if the wire, cable or pipe will reach, they'll put it anywhere." When I get on a train, I literally have to check to see where some of the switches are, because it varies. One day the ditchlights are on the lower left panel at my knee. The next day, I'll board the same model engine, but the ditch light toggle is on the upper right panel at shoulder level. Same thing inside the engine compartments. Where's the dipstick on an EMD SD-50? Hell if I know. I'll have to look.
Don't worry though. The throttle, automatic brake, independent brake and reverser are always in the same place. Thank God!I'm rambling again. More later.Master Qui-Gon
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Nels_Anderson (411 posts)
Apr-03-01, 04:31 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" OK, I'm glad to hear that the things you could test were accurate. I would expect that they would be but only someone who has done it for real can tell.The full version does come with charts of stations, speed limits, etc. but unfortunately it's buggy Actually that brings up something I've been wondering about...what do real engineers use? You must have some sort of map, or profile chart, or something that defines the speed limits and significant locations (stations, yards, etc.) on the route. How exactly is that done? Any chance you could scan an example for us to see?Funny what you said about controls...I'd actually like to find a real control stand and wire it up to my computer. I just think that would be neat. I never really enjoyed flightsim until I had a good yoke so I kind of think this would help here too.Also interesting what you said about the controls being located all over the place. That will make a challenge for the panel designers...although I guess they can argue that where ever they put something, they are right since some loco could have it there.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-05-01, 02:04 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Regarding your question about maps and profile charts. This is where railroading is very different than aviation. There's no short way for me to explain this, so here goes. First, from this point forward, anything I say or describe applies to my territory on CSX' Baltimore Division. There are some standard laws, rules and practices in railroading, but believe it or not, it varies greatly from one area to the next, even within the same company.
Having said that, we are issued rather unprofessional looking, hand-drawn yard maps that are basically used by young trainmen/conductors until they learn the yard, since they're the ones lining the switches for you.
On the road, the timetable for your territory tells you the mileposts where speed changes are and other significant information like terminals and crossovers, but what it basically comes down to is this. When you train and work as a conductor, and then train as an engineer, you are expected to essentially memorize the railroad you are to be qualified on. Knowing that the speed drops from 50 mph to 25 mph at milepost "XYZ" doesn't mean anything if you don't visually know where that is. It's all repetition.
My territory covers just over 200 miles of track. Most through mountainous terrain, and a portion through Pittsburgh, PA.
I had to learn over 100 signals and know exactly where they are, because with a freight train, you can't wait until you see a stop signal to decide to stop. You have to know where it is before you get there. I'm sure this is sounding rather vague and a LOT less precise than what people want to hear, but that's how it basically is. We have to trust signal indication and radio communication with a dispatcher 1,100 miles away to keep us from running into each other head on.
Again, a lot of information is provided in the time table for a division or subdivision, but that's basically for reference if you should forget some detail. Knowing the territory and the terrain is essential. And Murphy's Law is heavily practiced on the railroad. If I have 100 signals, 85 of them are around blind bends and can't be seen until you are on top of them.
I hope you can pick out a legitimate answer to your question somewhere in all my ramblings. One day soon, I'll begin putting some of the basics is clear, brief terms. I'll wait to see what MSTS provides in the way of manuals and basically expand upon that.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Nels_Anderson (411 posts)
Apr-05-01, 09:38 AM (EST) 7. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Actually, that helps a great deal! And probably explains why the TrainMaster 4 manual is the way it is...they don't really have a real world standard to base it on.I guess we won't be seeing anything like Jeppesen SimCharts for train-sims then will we?I've heard of an engineer being "qualified" before, and now the term makes sense...it's qualified for the route, not just as an engineer in the general sense. From your description I can see how important that is, and I bet engineers don't change routes much. You're really a lot more like an air traffic controller than a pilot, since controllers have to memorize their sector to be qualified to control it. Pilots can just look at a map and go It looks like this is an area where some allowances need to be made in a simulator, since I don't think most people will want to run the same route over and over again. So hopefully some sort of charts and timetables will be provided for each route. I noticed the importance of radio communication over trackside signals too...TrainMaster does not have this at all (even though it's supposed to simulate modern U.S. railroading) so I wonder how this will be developed in other sims? Should be interesting.
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jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-06-01, 03:11 AM (EST) 9. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hi Qui-Gon:
Thank you for the very enlightening explanations of the way you find your way around your route and the use of the ammeter and independent brake. The more I become familiar with the mechanics and dynamics of trains, the more I think that Trainmaster v. 3.2, the earlier version of Trainmaster, without the ability to see out the cab window, is the better product and more fun to use. It comes with lists of each track, giving each Milepost, distance, 3 or 4 different speed limits for different types of consists, degree of curvature of the track, track grade, station names and required stops for passenger trains. For a typical track it requires 15 pages to print out. These print outs more than make up for the lack of a view out the cab as far as getting the information needed to know where you are on the route. As you point out, only familiarity gained by repeated travel over the route, is the ultimate way to know the route well enough to pilot the train. I think, in one of your notes on Flightsim, you mentioned that you live in Cumberland Maryland and worked the CSX Baltimore division. I wanted to send my printout of the route Trainmaster calls the B & O Old Main Line and Low Grades Line. I think you might possibly be familiar with it. It runs from Curtis Bay to Pittsburgh through W. Baltimore, Point of Rocks, Brunswick, Harpers Ferry, Shenandoah Junction (where there is a 0.852% grade),thesumitHobbs, Martinsburg, North Mountain, Randolph Tunnel, Cumberland, Hyndman, Pinkerton, Shoo Fly, Connellsville,McKeesport and Pittsburgh. A total run of 326 miles and 315 named and numbered mile posts with all the above data. I tried to download this so I could post it here for you but I couldn't figure out how to do it. If you'd like to look at it I can mail you a printout of it. This is the kind of information Trainmaster 4 lacks and needs badly. Some of the tracks in the new version are short pieces of tracks covered in the old version. I tried using these printouts with the new version and though very close, the mileposts and speed limit placement is slightly off for some unknown reason. Pardon my screwup in this paragraph back at the Hobbs summit. I tried to insert something and found that this thing doesn't allow insertions.
Re: the information you and another reader so kindly gave me about the Ammeter and the Independent brake, you confirmed my suspicions, thank you both. Maybe I should send a copy of this note to the Trainmaster people suggesting they include these printouts with the Trainmaster version 4.Thanks again gentlemen for your sharing of the information you've learned on the job.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-06-01, 12:38 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Yeah, I work out of Cumberland and am very familiar with the route you're referring to, but only West of Cumberland. Curtis Bay, Brunswick and the rest of those points east of Cumberland, I have heard of, but never worked that direction. Hyndman, Pinkerton, Shoo Fly and the rest is my territory. Beautiful scenery through those mountains that, except for the rails, is for the most part undisturbed by man. Hell, the animals don't recognize we're even there. I see deer, beaver, bobcats, mountain lions, black bears, all variety of snakes and other wildlife on that route. That's why I'm glad I'm an engineer now. I once had a relatively close encounter with a mountain lion while walking my train as a conductor. It was probably a good 150 to 200 ft. away, but that's waaaay too close for me. I found myself staring at it, while absently feeling for the grab irons on the car next to me and wondering just how fast I could climb it. Now I sit in the safety of the cab and nap while the conductor walks the train. Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-06-01, 03:26 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" I'm green with envy Qui-Gon. By the way is there a story behind your odd nom de plume? Is it a character in a story I haven't read? So good to meet a guy doing a job he loves for a change.
I don't remember ever saying it but my dad used to say that I said to one of the nuns at the kindergarten I went to when she suggested I become a priest when I grew up, "Will I be able to take my electric trains with me?" Evidently, she must have said no because I declined the offer.I've driven through some of that country and I agree it is beautiful and still relatively wild. I'm enjoying picking your brain about railroading and if nothing else, I've gained a little knowledge from our association with these computer trains. In my case, I'm afraid it must remain useless knowledge.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-07-01, 03:20 AM (EST) 13. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" The name Qui-Gon Jayy or Master Qui-Gon is a Star Wars reference. I am a major Star Wars geek. That is to say, I dig the story and visuals and grew up with the movie series. I do still like chicks, sports and cars, so I'm not THAT kind of geek.
If the name still doesn't sound familiar, it's from a character that was not in the original trilogy, but introduced in 1999 in Star Wars: Episode I, The Phantom Menace. First Star Wars flick in 16 years.
While the movie disappointed some because visuals were prioritized over content, one highlight was the performance of actor Liam Neeson (Schindler's List, Rob Roy) as Jedi Master, Qui-Gon Jinn. If you saw the flick, but don't know the character Qui-Gon Jinn, he was Obi-Wan Kenobi's mentor who wore the long hair tied back and a beard. (like me until just yesterday)
When the movie was released, my friends and family adopted Star Wars sounding nicknames. My real name is Jay, so I became Qui-Gon Jayy, and it just stuck. I'm even referred to as Qui-Gon on the radio by passing trains. Sometimes, I'm called Vader, because I have a deep clear voice and am not afraid to throw the occasional Darth Vader impression on the radio, unless the FRA is listening, of course.
So anyway, that's where the name comes from. Hope you're not too disappointed. LOL :-OMaster Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-07-01, 11:01 AM (EST) 14. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Thank you for the explanation Qui-Gon. I'm kind of ashamed to admit that I have never seen a full Star Wars movie, only short pieces of it on the TV.Back to railroading. I have an extra program I acquired for the Trainmaster 3.2, the early version, that allows me to make up my own trains. There is quite a wide selection of locomotives and cars available to choose from. One of the trains they give me with that B&O Old route I talked about, is a 150 car coal train pulled by one SD50 East of Sand Patch (near Cumberland) as far east as East as Brunswick. From that point East it needs helpers. I tried this run and could not make it without my motors showing very high amperage. I switched to one 6000 HP SD90MAC and off I went, no sweat, until I reached the hills East of Martinsburg where I hitched on a couple of SD90MAC helpers. The SD50 is listed as 3500 HP. Trainmaster claims they actually observed this train doing this route with the SD50. What is your professional opinion of this? I know you are not familiar with that route but is it common practise to run 150 car consists with a weight up around 19000 tons?I can also use the train builder program with the new Trainmaster 4 sim and I'm having a good time trying all sorts of equipment with all sorts of lengths and weights of consists in all the terrain they offer. Has your outfit any of these big MACs? Must be quite a sensation to have all that horsepower under your control. I've conned ships with that much horsepower but that is a different ball game. Are you limited to the number of hours you may work continuosly as an Engineer? I'm sure you are like Airline Pilots. I would imagine that it is a good career with stable employment and good benefits. We'll always need the railroads as they are the most efficient way to move heavy products in large quantities, coal for example.Enough for now. Hope you and your family enjoy a good weekend.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-07-01, 02:46 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" I won't say it's never happened, because I don't put anything past CSX, but there's no chance in hell I'm taking any loaded coal train up or down any grade as long and steep as Sandpatch with only one engine, no matter the model.
We don't like to run with one engine anyway, just because engines die sometimes, especially since we still have some old models from the 1970's still in service.As far as going uphill on my route, a coal train gets helpers without question. We don't even have to request it, it's waiting for us when we get to Connelsville (the beginning of the hill when eastbound towards Cumberland)
At the top of the hill (Sandpatch) if I only had one unit, I'm getting a helper on the head end to take us down the hill. If you don't have operating dynamic brakes, you need to have helpers tie onto your head end to go down the hill, per rule.I've never personally run an SD90MAC, so I'm not sure we use those yet or not. I'm carrying manuals for SD70 and SD80 MAC's, but not 90.
Any big slammer I run, whether it's GE or EMD, gives you a hell of a feeling of power. I ALWAYS have the right of way. Wanna play chicken? I win. You get a little bit of an attitude. Some idiot pulls up to a crossing and thinks about running around the crossing gates, I'm thinking (and sometimes saying outloud) "OK, Bubba, you just stay the hell off my tracks!" Once I can see you, it's too late to stop. It's the single most stressfull part of the job, almost killing someone every single day I run a train, just because they're stupid.
Just yesterday, a brand new engineer hit a man who was for some reason standing on the tracks on a blind curve. That's a hell of a way to start one's career. The fact that it wasn't his fault, and there's nothing he could have done to prevent it, doesn't make you feel any better when they're cleaning up the remains.Per federal law, we are allowed to work 12 hours, and required 8 hours rest between tours. If you are on duty 12 hours or more (not operating, but waiting for relief crew or ride or whatever) then 10 hours rest is required.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-08-01, 04:49 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" >I won't say it's never happened,
>because I don't put anything
>past CSX, but there's no
>chance in hell I'm taking
>any loaded coal train up
>or down any grade as
>long and steep as Sandpatch
>with only one engine, no
>matter the model. Hi Master Qui-Gon:
I mentioned Sandpatch because I thought the Trainmaster book did.
I looked it up today and found that Sandpatch is West of Cumberland so that was wrong. Today I took the train that the Trainmaster people say they observed near Paw Paw, An SD50 3500 HP, hauling 150 coal cars, gross weight 17310 tons, from Cumberland to Brunswick. The first 50 miles of this 100 mile trip is mostly along the Potomac River and quite flat, with grades less than 0.04%. The SD50 handled this OK with average speed around 20 to 25 m/h once it got rolling which took 4 or 5 minutes. At Hancock, about the halfway point, I hitched on the 2 SD40 (3000HP) helpers Trainmaster made available, and hit the hills. Again it did OK with speeds still around 20 and the slowest speed up the grade about 8 MPH. At no time in the trip did the Amps go up to the high red level, they were almost always in the green area on the guage, occasionally hitting the yellow caution area for a moment or two on the grades. Trainmaster v. 3.2 gives you a summary of the trip at the end. This trip took 4 hours, 55 minutes to travel 99.53 miles at an average speed of 20.22 Miles/hour. It burned 1107 gallons of fuel averaging 11.12 gal./mile. For the first 50 miles with the lone SD50, it burned 322 gallons. On the last 50 miles with the two helpers attached it burned 785 gallons. Of course the second 50 miles had much greater grades but also had a lot of downgrades with the engines just coasting or in dynamic breaking.
The maximum speed enroute was 43 MPH. The throttle was in position #8 (Full throttle) 52% of the time. The speed limit was not exceeded at any time.Now Jay, I'll ask a little favor of you. On your next day off, will you please borrow a 150 car coal train and duplicate this trip for me and give me your results ?? If your boss questions you, just tell him that Jim, that crazy old Irishman, said its OK. (smile) >We don't like to run with
>one engine anyway, just because
>engines die sometimes, especially since
>we still have some old
>models from the 1970's still
>in service.
>
>As far as going uphill on
>my route, a coal train
>gets helpers without question.
>We don't even have to
>request it, it's waiting for
>us when we get to
>Connelsville (the beginning of the
>hill when eastbound towards Cumberland)
>
>At the top of the hill
>(Sandpatch) if I only had
>one unit, I'm getting a
>helper on the head end
>to take us down the
>hill. If you don't
>have operating dynamic brakes, you
>need to have helpers tie
>onto your head end to
>go down the hill, per
>rule.
>How do they handle the helpers? Do they send them out to sidings near where they will be needed and just sit there until they're needed ? I imagine they are expected to do some maintenance or something. How many men are in a long train crew these days ? Say one with 4 engines and 150 coal cars?> Once I can see
>you, it's too late to
>stop. It's the single
>most stressfull part of the
>job, almost killing someone every
>single day I run a
>train, just because they're stupid.
>
>Just yesterday, a brand new engineer
>hit a man who was
>for some reason standing on
>the tracks on a blind
>curve. That's a hell
>of a way to start
>one's career. The fact
>that it wasn't his fault,
>and there's nothing he could
>have done to prevent it,
>doesn't make you feel any
>better when they're cleaning up
>the remains.
>
That experience must be terrible. It must give train crews nightmares. I know it happens all the time. When will people ever learn that haste makes waste and in the case of playing Russian roullette at grade crossing it means death.After just spending $50 dollars on the new Trainmaster 4, I'm spending most of my train time with my old Trainmaster version 3.2. One of the features I like with the old version is the ability to compress time when the route is easy. You can compress time up to 8X real time. Its handy when chugging slowly up a long steep hill. The tracks available on the old version are much longer than the short segments of track that the new version has.Enough for now, don't forget to send me the results of your testing that route.
Jim
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-08-01, 08:39 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" In the real coal drag that Trainmaster observed with one SD50, they must have been short on power or something, because it's definitely not the norm, but it happens. I was woefully underpowered last night (Saturday night), when I took only 4,700 tons up the hill. Get this. I had a SD40-2 and a GP-38 on the head end, had TWO SD50 helpers shoving from behind, and spent most of the 30 mile run to Sandpatch under 15 miles per hour.
That's just pathetic for a train under 5,000 tons. I think they (CSX) might have cheated on the tonnage. Also, the horspower and tonnage ratings for engines are based on what they do when they roll off the assembly line. My SD40 on the head end was built in 1979. Do you really think is was running by the numbers in the book? Doubt it. As far as fuel efficiency and exact running times and percentages of time I'm in the 8th notch and all that. We don't monitor that ourselves. The numbers I pay attention to, are current speed, various air brake pressure gauges, report when fuel reading falls below 1,000 gallons, and how much time before I go on the law (reach 12 hours of service).Helpers for westbound trains from Cumberland to Sandpatch are dispatched from Cumberland. Helpers for eastbound trains from Connelsville to Sandpatch are dispatched from Connelsville.
Usually, you determine in advance that you need a helper and you have them tie on at those points. Sometimes, if you get stuck on the hill (which will catch you some hell for delaying the train), you have to wait for the helpers to come up after you. Same thing if you get to sandpatch and need double-headed down the hill (having helpers on your head end) If you don't let them know in advance, or if you do, but they forget to send them, you have to wait for them to arrive from one of those two locations. Or, if there's one coming up the hill on the rear of another train, when they're done with that shove, they'll cut off one train, and on to another.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-09-01, 12:16 PM (EST) 18. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hi Master Qui-Gon:
I made up a train with the engines you had Saturday night and 49 coal cars grossing 4700 tons. Left Pittsburgh and went as far East as Shoo Fly without any problems. Could go along at 40 where the speed limit allowed without a problem. My track sheet does not show Sand Patch but there is a steep grade between Confluence and Brook. Is that Sand Patch? In which direction were you traveling? It seems by my sheet to be nearly 100 miles from Pittsburgh to what I think is Sand Patch and about 65 miles from Cumberland. You say you spent most of the 30 mile run under 15 MPH. Just from where to where is that? I wonder how closely your mileposts agree with the mile posts on the data sheet that I have. I'm using what Trainmaster labels the Old B&O track. There is also another track called the B&O Met that runs from Washington to Pittsburgh but does not take the "Low Grade" cutoffs that it says are used mostly by heavy trains because of lower grades but have sharper curves and therefore low speed limits. I noticed some pretty sharp curves between Indian Creek and Ohio Pyle, 250 degree curves and 30 MPH speed limits. Learned a new trick, let me try it out. Nope it didn't work. I was trying to make the little yellow character with a smile. I guess I was born 30 years too late for computers. (smile)
If you ever come down Florida way be sure and stop by.
Good choo chooing to ya,
Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-09-01, 06:08 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hope this works in text form. I'll try to scan the employee made charts I use for reference from time to time.
The train I referred to that was underpowered was actually a westbound from Cumberland to Connelsville, not the other way around.
It basically works like this. Cumberland is essentially the bottom of "the hill". It's a 30 mile run up to Sandpatch, which is the peak of the mountain. Then it's a 60 mile downhill run to Connelsville. The area you asked about "Brook" is the signal just before Shoofly when traveling east. That's still about 25 miles west of Sandpatch.
When travelling east, such as you were in your run, it's not as steep an incline for as great a distance as climbing the other side of the hill in a westward direction. Cumberland to Sandpatch reaches the same elevation in 30 miles, that Connelsville to Sandpatch does in 60 miles. The very last few miles on the eastward trip to Sandpatch is the steepest part.Hope this helps.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-09-01, 09:04 PM (EST) 20. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Okay Jay, now I savvy. Looking at my track sheet going West out of Cumberland it starts rising steeply around milepost PEN 189, just before Hyndman. Summit is at milepost 211 just before the SA Tower, whatever that is. Steep downgrade all the way to Connellsville all the way to Connellsville. Cumberland is
CMB 178. The summit is about milepost 211. Just a little over 30 miles. I'll mark that on my chart as Sand Patch.
You started from a dead stop at Cumberland? I'll run that train from Cumberland to Connellsville. Might give us a good idea of the realism of the dynamics of this simulator.
This program was written for DOS. My old computer ran it with good realistic sound just like the new Trainmastr 4. The old computer bit the dust a few months ago and we had to buy a new computer with Windows Me. Now the sound does not work on Trainmaster 3.2 I was in touch with the Trainmaster people and they told me that Microsoft Windows no longer supports the old DOS programs. So I'm stuck without sound on the old Trainmaster sim. but I still like it for things like this.
I'll let you know the result of my running that section soon. Then we can compare notes.
Jim
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jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-10-01, 01:53 PM (EST) 21. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-01 AT 02:36 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-01 AT 02:25 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-01 AT 02:10 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-01 AT 02:02 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-01 AT 01:57 PM (EST)Hi Master Qui-Gon:
Here's the breakdown of my attempt at your Saturday night run. Trainmaster 3.2 spits this all out automatically. I wish I could figure out how to copy it into this note without having to transcribe it manually.B&O Old Track Train file: Jay.Trn
1 SD40-2, 1 GP38, 2 SD50 Helpers
Gross tons: 5421, Ttl length 2270' Rotational Mass 268
Trailing tons 4704 ttl horsepower 12310
Horsepower/ton 2.27 Power/trailing ton 2.62
Combined resistance coefficients
RTO 11407 RT1 97.58 RT2 2.57Traction factors
For SD40-2:
Highest efficiency at 30 MPH
Max. operating speed = 71 MPHFor GP38:
Highest efficiency at 30 MPH
Max. operating speed = 65 MPHHighest efficiency for SD50 at 20 MPH
Max. operating speed = 71 MPH
(I omitted the tractive effort and calculation factors in the interest of brevity. If you'd like to see them Jay, I'll give them to you later.)Train maximum operating speed = 65 MPH
Maximum time at overload = 30 minutesLOCATION / MILEPOST / DISTANCE / TIME / SPEED / SPEED LIMITCumberland /CMB 178.30 0.00miles 0:0time 0.0MPH 15
Viaduct Jct/PEN 178.9 0.60miles 0:4time 11.3MPH 25
Eckart Jct PEN 180.2 1.90miles 0:8time 25.8MPH 25
Mt Savage JcPEN 181.4 3.10miles 0:11time 25.4MPH 35
Ellerslie PEN 184.0 5.70miles 0:16time 44.5MPH 50
Slip Rock PEN 189.3 11.00miles 0:23time 46.3MPH 50
Hyndman PEN 191.4 13.10miles 0:26time 42.2MPH 50
Hoblitzell PEN 192.7 14.40miles 0:28time 28.1MPH 30
Brackens PEN 195.5 17.20miles 0:36time 17.1MPH 30
FO Tower PEN 199.6 21.30miles 0:47time 21.5MPH 30
Glencoe PEN 201.0 22.75miles 0:51time 25.7MPH 30
Philson PEN 205.6 27.10miles 1:02time 20.3MPH 30
Mance PEN 208.2 29.70miles 1:10time 18.4MPH 30
Manila PEN 208.8 30.35miles 1:12time 18.9MPH 30
E end tunnelPEN 209.6 31.10miles 1:15time 19.8MPH 30
Summit PEN 210.8 32.30miles 1:17time 28.5MPH 30
SA Tower PEN 211.3 32.80miles 1:19time 26.9MPH 35
Keystone PEN 212.9 34.40miles 1:22time 34.7MPH 35
Meyersdale PEN 214.8 36.35miles 1:25time 33.0MPH 35
Salisbury JcPEN 217.7 39.20miles 1:30time 28.4MPH 35Throttle was fully open from Slippery Rock to the Summit.Summary Report:
Cumulative Distance: 40.59 miles
Trip time = 93.22 minutes
Average speed 26.13 miles per hour
Fuel consumed: 758.9 Averaging 18.7 miles gallons per mile
Maximum speed 49.88 MPH
Excess MPH/Minutes = 0.1
Number of Penalty Stops = 0
Percent of time in throttle positions:
Dynamic brake: 13.03% Idle: 1.56%
Run 1: 0.25%
Run 2: 3.40
Run 3: 3.62
Run 4: 4.18
Run 5: 2.83
Run 6: 2.70
Run 7: 3.30
Run 8: 65.14%I seem to have made a little better time over Sand Patch than your real life train. Either your equipment was not putting out their book value power or the sim locos are overpowered.I'll be very interested in your comments Jay.
Jim
P.S. The reason for all my editing is, I'm trying to straighten out the columns in the table. This forum is not very friendly to a guy trying to tabulate. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-10-01, 02:38 PM (EST) 22. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" There's probably nothing wrong with the sim power. It's probably by the book, and real power just doesn't put out the horses like it did when it was new. Also, I don't know if the sim takes traction into consideration. The rails were wet, creating a lot of wheel slip and so on. It sounds fairly realistic as far as speeds and total time to make the run. Cumberland to Sandpatch is about an hour run if you can make track speed. Many of the signals and milepost locations are real ones. Others are no longer there, and some new ones have been added. For the record, SA tower is Sandpatch tower, judging by the milepost. The Sandpatch tunnel starts at about milepost 210, the tunnel is 4,600 ft. long and the tower is just on the west end of the tunnel around milepost 211. The two words you'll hear most on a real railroad is "about", and "should".
The track "should" be clear. I'll give you the signal in "about" 15 minutes.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-10-01, 02:57 PM (EST) 23. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hi Master Qui-Gon
You're not kidding, Trainmaster should use the word "about" for most of its documentation for the new Trainmaster 4. Its prettier than the old Trainmaster 3.2 sim but I think they did a better job of putting the old sim together accurately. I had a helluva time trying to line up the columns in that table showing the location, milepost, distance, speed etc. They wouldn't stay in column when I sent it to be posted.
Hey, I've been meaning to ask you, what are "ditch lights"?
I see that term used all the time. I have a model train setup on the back porch, (which isn't too popular with my wife) and I read ads about locos having ditch lights. I assume they are lights mounted low to light up the ditches??I'm glad to hear that you think the dynamics in the sim are fairly accurate. I kinda felt they were somewhere in the right ball park. Trainmaster said they had real life engineers working on that. They also do computer programming for the real railroads so they might know a little bit about what they are doing. I'll try to run the rest of that down to Connelsville when I get a chance and we can compare notes again. I sure wish I could just upload the tables to you that the program generates automatically.
My son is coming down from Massachusetts tomorrow and staying a week and my wife's mother is celebrating her 85th birthday with a big party, so if you don't hear from me as often don't worry I aint dead, just busy.
Best wishes,
Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-10-01, 07:13 PM (EST) 26. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Ditch lights are, in fact, the pair of lights on the lower front portion of the locomotive. We run with them on constantly, and they flash automatically when the horn is activated. They also shut off by themselves. Sometimes referred to as crossing lights or road crossing lights.
The Cumberland to Connelsville run is what we refer to as the short pull. Connelsville is only the halfway point for our Interdivisional (ID for short)runs. They run from Cumberland to New Castle, PA through Connelsville and Pittsburgh, PA. Just over 200 miles. Takes 6 hours at track speed, but usuallylonger because there are several areas of single track on the western portion of that run where you have to wait for opposing trains. An 8 or 9 hour day is considered a good one on the ID runs. Of course, anything less than 12 hours is good. My longest day was 18 hours on a train. Twelve hours running (or waiting to run) and 4 hours waiting for ride after being relieved, and two hour ride to terminal. Not fun, but hells of overtime.
I see I'm rambling again, so enough for now.
Say hey to your son, and happy birthday to your mama in law.Master Qui-gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-10-01, 03:16 PM (EST) 24. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Traction is adjustable with Trainmaster. I have the adhesion limit set at 24. The default on the old Sim was 18 which seemed a bit low. I noticed they have it set at 24 on the new Sim. I got the 24 figure from the EMD web site. They are claiming and adhesion factor as high as 45 for their new big MACs.
I checked out the CSX website looking for a good map, no luck.
Union Pacific has a good site with specs on all their rolling gear.Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-10-01, 07:17 PM (EST) 27. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Yeah, CSX' website is weak.
Actually, the one fault we find in newer units is traction on wet rail on a grade. Don't really remember with the MAC's, but the GE CW40's and CW60's tend to lose traction more than old models. We just throw down some extra sand and hope for the best.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
redryder (18 posts)
Jul-04-01, 06:50 PM (EST) 61. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hello Jim,I've just become interested in getting a train simulator and I have a couple of questions. In writing this post I'm replying to a message you posted in April to a CSX engineer named Qui-Gon (what a great guy to have to talk to about trains!). In your message you mentioned seeing some information, from Qui-Gon, on the use of the ammeter and independent brake.
So, my first question is how can I get a look of that information?
My second question is have you had a chance to try Microsoft Train Simulator and how does it compare to the Train Master sim?
I'm really looking forward to getting started with a train simulator, so I'd like to have the benefit your experience and of others who care to comment, so I can make a good choice.Thanks in advance,
Ted Ryder Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Jul-04-01, 10:26 PM (EST) 62. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hi Ted,
All the correspondence I had with Qui Gon was right here in this forum and this "Not terribly impressed" topic. If you sift through it you will find lots of useful information in Jay's notes.
I have MS Train-Sim and I'm quite impressed with it. In comparison to the Train Master sim MSTS is far ahead in graphics but TrainMaster is way ahead in the accuracy of train simulation.
I have both the Train Master version 4 with the cab view of the track ahead and the older version 3.2 which shows the train in a profile view. I prefer the older version. They sacrificed some very useful things to fit in the cab view in the new version. For one, the old one lets you print out very detailed route data for each point where the grade,elevation, degree of curvature or speed limit changes. We could really use that information with the new MSTS sim. After a route is completed it prints out a very detailed breakdown of the train performance on the trip, including fuel usage, gallons/mile, average speed, percentage of time in each throttle notch, tractive effort, efficiency , etc.
At the beginning of each trip it gives the total train weight, horsepower of each locomotive in the consist, length of consist and horsepower/weight ratio. All this information is sadly lacking in MS Train Sim. Train Sim is much closer to reality in its modeling of tractive effort, the affect of Newton's laws and other laws of dynamic physics. Much of my correspondence with Jay, (Qui Gon) was his confirmation of these things in his practical experience. Train Master sold sets of tracks totaling thousands of miles and I had them all and I had the track in Western Maryland that Jay was running on every day and it was most interesting to compare his practical results with varying consists with the same consist running the same route with Train Master.
I enjoy using the new MS sim. I wish MS would get together with the TrainMaster people and incorporate some of their work into their simulator.
It would be a hard choice to pick one sim over the other. For me with an engineering background I like the old version of Train Master v. 3.2 but for sheer fun watching the beautiful scenery roll by the window, MS Train Sim can't be touched.
It boils down to your choice, what is more important to you. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
redryder (18 posts)
Jul-05-01, 11:37 PM (EST) 63. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Thanks Jim, for your detailed response. Since I'm just getting started (I have no real or virtual experience as an engineer) I may start with MSTS & then try Train Master. Perhaps in the next release Train Master will put back all the goodies that they had in 3.2. Would you know if 3.2 is still available? (I may end up flipping a coin before I buy).Thanks again Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Jul-06-01, 10:23 AM (EST) 64. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" The last time I visited Trainmaster's web site version 3.2 was still available. One caution, I found that when I updated my computer from Windows 95 to Windows Me, I no longer had sound with Trainmaster v. 3.2. Everything else in the program worked OK. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-02-01, 03:04 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hi Qui:
First let me congratulate you on your recent promotion. I read Flightsim too.
I'm glad you're aboard, we need a real train engineer to answer our questions. I'm an engineer but not that kind.
First, do you ever allow the ammeter reading to get up in the red area? On trainmaster, it is red from about 1400 up. I suspect that prolonged running at high amperage would be very damaging to the generators and traction motors. In Trainmaster it shows an allowance of 30 minutes at high amperage before it stops the train because of motor burnout. Is this realistic?
My second question is about the locomotive independent brake.
When is this brake used? The operators manual doesn't have much to say about this brake. I've noticed that it doesn't have the power to stop the train and if used while the train is in motion it would cause the cars to slam forward against the cars ahead of them.
I just got Trainmaster 4. I had the previous v. 3.2 for a long time. The old version shows only the profile of the track and train and leaves a lot to your imagination but not knowing any better, I had the feeling that it might be fairly accurate in demonstrating the dynamics of the train. At any rate I enjoyed fooling around with it and trying out different things.
I agree with your observation that Trainmaster is far from what could be expected in this day of brilliant graphics.
Enough for now, hope you visit this site often and I look forward to hearing from you.
Jim McCarthy Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-05-01, 02:32 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hey Jim,First, regarding amp meters. You're correct. Running in the red for extended amounts of time will definitely burn up a traction motor. The time allowed to run under such conditions varies from one locomotive model to the next, with the newer engines enduring more than the antiques. (We have a lot of models, but they fall under two basic categories..."Big Slammers" or "Old Junk".
As far as preventing such conditions, since it usually takes place when you're hauling a heavy train up a long steep grade, we avoid taking such trains without sufficient power. If our original locomotive consist is not rated for the tonnage of the actual train, we have helpers tie on the rear and let them shove us up the hill. This protects both the engines from heavy amp usage, and cars in the middle of the train from having too much tonnage pulling in both directions. (locomotive pulling on head end, and gravity pulling on the other).
There are actually rules regarding stopping your train if you run over certain amperage for a specified amount of time to let the traction motors cool. Again, it varies from one engine model to the next. We never stop anyway. If you're loading that many amps, and it lasts that long. Chances are you got "hung up" on the hill anyway and had to have a helper come up behind you and shove you the rest of the way.Secondly, you asked about the independent brake.
Wow, I could spend days going over that. Here's the simple description for now. Think of the automatic brake as applying brakes to the entire train, engines included. The independent brake only applies brakes to the locomotives, not the cars.
As to when you use it, you use it when you stop. When you apply the automatic brake and the train slows, just as you come to a stop, you apply the independent. It holds the engines in place. When running just engines at relatively low speeds, like in the yard, it becomes the primary brake.
You're right about not using the independent to stop a moving train. Not only will the cars slam into your engines, you'll flatten the wheels on your engine, because the brakes WILL stop the engine wheels from moving, but won't stop the 5,000 to 20,000 tons behind you from shoving you for a few more miles.
Now, when the train is already moving very slowly, say between 5 and 10 miles per hour, some engineers, myself included, will use the independent brake to bring the train to a gradual stop if we are slow enough not to slam the cars around, only plan to be stopped for a few moments and are on flat enough terrain with a small enough train that we know it will sit still with just the engine brakes on. This is done so as not to have to apply the automatic brake, which takes time to apply, and more importantly, takes time to recharge when you're ready to leave.
If you're ready to leave, you just knock the indpendent brake off and start pulling. Saves time.
Like I said in posts to Nels, I hope there's some useful info buried in my ramblings.
I'll talk to you later.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
crund (11 posts)
Apr-05-01, 09:21 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Independent brake" Some more thoughts on the independent...It also comes into play when starting a train on an ascending grade. The engineer will begin applying throttle while the independent is still set and holding the train from rolling backwards.Kind of like starting a stick shift car on a hill.Also, when applying the automatic brake at higher speeds (above 18-20 mph), the engineer has to manually release or "bail off" the independent to save wear on the locomotive brake shoes. He does this by holding the independent brake handle down for a count of 4 seconds per locomotive in the consist. (So for a five-locomotive consist, he has to sit there and hold down the handle for a full 20 seconds!)When I did time on a pro simulator, occasionally a student would forget to bail off the independent brake when he applied the automatic. The instructor would usually wait a few seconds without saying anything, and then sniff a couple of times and say, "Do you smell something burning?" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-06-01, 12:53 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Independent brake" Exactly, everything Crund said applies to us to. Like I said, you can spend days going over all the details of using air brakes.
The hard part is sitting at my pc and remembering all the steps I take when starting and stopping trains, that are second nature. That was also a distraction when doing my final examinations. An instructor asks how you peform a certain brake test or procedure, and I know how to do it properly, but sitting in a classroom, I would forget to say a step I do automatically, like bailing off the independent...er....I mean "actuate" the independent. LOLMaster Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (53 posts)
May-04-01, 04:24 PM (EST) 36. "Question for Master Qui-Gon" This is a question for Master Qui Gon: How would you handle a long descent down a fairly steep hill? The example I'll use is the descent from Moffatt Tunnel down to Denver, which is featured in TM4, with say a heavy coal train. I've tried this a few times with one or two of the trains included in TM4 and have fairly quickly realised that once it starts going downhill, a train develops a mind of it's own and very quickly becomes almost unmanageable. Are the trains preloaded in the program representative of a real-life situation or would you want more helpers on the descent to assist with dynamic braking? Would you be controlling the train speed entirely with dynamic braking or would you be using a combination of dynamic and air braking? Any other nuggets of wisdom you care to share would be greatly appreciated. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-04-01, 10:19 PM (EST) 37. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" AHHHHH, THAT my friend is the biggest issue when learning to run on our territory. While the Sandpatch grade is surely not the worst in the world, or the U.S., taking a loaded coal train weighing upwards of 20,000 tons (18,000 was the most I've had behind me) down a 20 mile length of track with a grade of more than 2% in more than one place is the part of our run that requires the most experience to do right. And even then, there's no one approach that everyone uses. Here are some rules of thumb.
By rule, and certainly by preference, we are to have working dynamic brakes on our lead unit.
As I crest the hill, I'm usually still pulling with everything I've got, because even though I'm starting down hill, I have (?)teen thousand tons still coming up the hill. With a train that heavy, there will certainly be helper engines shoving me from the rear. We stop with the least amount of air brakes possible to let them cut away and go back to their home terminal where they tied on. Once on our own and starting down the hill, I already have minimum set on (6 to 8 lb. reduction on air brakes).
As you start to feel the rest of the train cresting the grade and "coming against you", you take the engines out of throttle and go into dynamic braking. To answer that part of your question, yes, you use both dynamic and air brakes in unison. The secret to not letting the train run away is getting a hold of it at the top and not playing cowboy. Even though track speed is 30 there, with a train of that size, I'm probably at 10 or 15 mph. Then you basically adjust the dynamic brake to meet the speed you desire. Being familiar with the territory, you know where the train will come after you, and you'll increase the braking in anticipation of an increase in speed. Often times, dynamic braking with a minimum air brake application is not enough to hold back a train that heavy, so you apply more air. This is where is gets tricky. Once you apply air, you CANNOT do a partial or full release on a grade. Not while running at least. What you put on at the top of the hill is what you have on for the next 20 miles. This comes into play later when the terrain levels out, or in one spot even goes back uphill for about 1/8 of a mile. You have to apply just enough air to keep you from running away at the steepest parts, but not so much that you hang up and stop at that uphill portion I mentioned, called "the sag". Air brake applications are made in 1 and 2 lb. increments. If you get too much air on, and hang up later down the hill. You have to stop, let the conductor tie handbrakes on 30% of your cars, release the brakes completely, recharge your air and start all over. You DO NOT want to do that to your conductor if you can help it.
If you have the right amount of air brakes applied, you just throttle modulate through the sag and any where else you need to. You're in dynamics for most of the trip down, and when you get to those known areas, you gradually come out of dynamic and starting hauling on them (putting engines back in forward power) before you get there. There's a lot of timing involved, and you have to account for the length of your train and the terrain it's on behind you. Again, the air brakes are still applied until you get off the hill. It seemed weird to me at first that I would be pulling on the train in the 8th notch of power, but had air brakes on, but that's how you have to do it.
Once you get off the steep grade and the rear of your train has cleared the speed restriction and you're ready to do 50 mph again, you leave the dynamic brake on to keep the head end bunched up and release the air brakes. You'll feel the train come against you as the brakes release gradually over the whole train. You still may need to reapply the air once you are charged back up, but on level terrain, you can apply and release the brakes as needed to control your speed if the dynamics are not enough. I hope this was in plain enough language to make sense. I try to avoid as much slang as possible, but we simply don't use the technical jargon too much. At least not the old heads I work with.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
May-04-01, 11:29 PM (EST) 38. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Excellent note Jay. I just tried to print it but found that the printer starts at the beginning of the topic and prints the whole 37 messages so I gave up. On Trainmaster, it is possible to fully release the brakes on a downgrade but not partially release them. Not that anyone would want to fully release the brakes without coming to a stop and having hand brakes applied as you say. Is that how they work? the brakes will fully release downhill but you don't do it ?
I have an enlarged map of Sand Patch, I've been meaning to try getting 200 cars from Cumberland to Connellsville by running 100 cars at a time up Sand Patch and combining them there for the rest of the run to Connellsville . Is there a siding at the top of Sand Patch? Lots of goofy things I can try with the old version of Trainmaster and the train builder accessory.I know your note was addressed to another fellow but I appreciated it and I'm sure he will to.

Thank you Jay, Jim McCarthy Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-05-01, 00:49 AM (EST) 39. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Jim,Yeah, that's correct. The air brakes on modern diesels used for freight have no partial release. It's full release only, and you just know not to do it on the mountain. Now that applies to the automatic brake (trainline brakes). The independent brake (engine brake) can be applied and then adjusted up or down as needed.Regarding Sandpatch, there is a relatively small siding for setting out or picking up cars about 7 miles west (Garret signal/Garrett siding, but it's not used the way you intend, putting a large number of cars to be added to an existing train. Trains coming out of Cumberland, whether built there, or through trains from Baltimore, go by Sandpatch as they are. Same applies to eastbound trains out of Connelsville to Cumberland. If they want to add cars, they do it at Connelsville, not enroute. Now, occasionally, if you have a low priorty train (which is basically whatever train I get called for ) they may have you stop and pick up a bad order or defective car or a cut of cars that was set out by another train, to be taken back to Cumberland for repair, as that's the nearest car shop. But it's a simulator, right?!? Go for it. What the hell, I land 747's at Greater Cumberland Regional (KCBE VERY close to Cumberland train yard) in FS2000 when in reality, a jumbo would crack the tarmac and send hundreds of people rolling into the Potomac River.
We have trains in excess of 100 cars, and up to two miles long, but I've not yet seen a train with 200 cars on our territory. 120 loaded cars is enough to ruin your day. Even with a helper, heading to Sandpatch out of Cumberland is going to be a long, slow ride. It takes an hour at track speed. With a lot of tonnage, it can take 2 or 3 hours, averaging 12 miles per hour. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! What fun LOLOLOLOLOLOL Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
May-05-01, 01:27 AM (EST) 40. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" That was my thought too Jay. What the hell, I'll build a siding right where I want it to hold 100 cars while my two SD50s go back to Cumberland for another 100 cars. I have 3 SD90MACs as helpers going up Sand Patch, from there I'm going to try making Connelsville with all 200 cars and the 2 SD50s.I plan to figure the relative cost with crew, engine use and fuel against tonnage hauled and time, with various consists and try to figure the most efficient consist. With a product like bulk coal, I wouldn't expect that time is as big a factor as money. I'll play with this little problem for a while and keep you posted. I think I'll try again to print your letter re: downgrades. I'll just tell the printer to print only the last 3 pages. And yes I flew my Piper J3 Cub out of that field near Cumberland and guess what, the scenery doesn't show anything, just the usual default scenery.Good to hear from you again Jay,Jim McCarthy Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
May-06-01, 09:16 AM (EST) 44. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Jay:
With 2 SD50MACs on the head end and 3 SD90MACs helping up the Sand Patch, I hauled 200 loaded coal cars (net tons 100/car, tare weight 30.5 tons) from Cumberland to Connellsville in 6 hours and 28 minutes. This includes the time to haul each 100 car split up to a siding I made near Salisbury Junction, for the head end power units to return to Cumberland and pick up the remaining 100 cars, pick up the first split and proceed to Connellsville. Cumberland to Salisbury Junction time was 1 hour and 59 minutes. Salisbury Junction to Connellsville 2 hours and 15 minutes. I did not include the time used to stop and pick up the split. I made a rough comparison of the cost of haulage with this rig and the 2SD40s and 49 cars you hauled on a Saturday night a few weeks ago. I duplicated that trip with Trainmaster and made the trip in 3 hours and 39 minutes. The cost ratio between the 200 car consist and the 49 car consist came out to be 1 to 1.2. In other words, if the actual cost to haul the 200 cars was $1.00/ton/mile it would cost $1.20 for the 49 car train.I made a number of assumptions. I based the operating costs of the locomotives as directly proportional to their horsepower and multiplied it by the time in use. Just out of curiosity I referred to CSX.com and found a freight price table. I priced haulage for open hopper loads between Cumberland and Connellsville at $8.27/net ton or about $0.09/ton/mile for a minimum 90 ton order. I'm sure the big customers like the power companies, and customers at longer distances pay much lower prices per ton/mile. actually my figures came out to about 1 cent per ton/mile but then you have to throw in fixed costs like track maintenance and a million other things like overhead and profit so I think I'm somewhere in the right ball park.At any rate I think it shows that hauling bigger tonnages pays off. I'll try a few more consists when I have the time and see what I come up with.Now a few questions Jay if you don't mind:
How closely does management monitor your obedience to the speed limits? Do you have a speed recorder or a GPS that records your speed and location?
On my route chart I have Pinkerton (WEDT) and Shoo Fly (EEDT). Are the WEDT and EEDT abreviations for West end and East end of a tunnel?Enough for now.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-06-01, 08:05 PM (EST) 45. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Regarding speed monitoring. Engines have a speed recorder. In fact, they have event recorders that monitor every action taken, including throttle, horn, bell, lights. It's like the black box of an airplane. If there's an accident, it's not hard to see if the crew was doing what they were supposed to. They don't download every engine, every day, so some may take the chance and run a little over speed. I, for one, do not. It only takes a few minutes off your run, and if you hit someone, and you're speeding. It doesn't matter if they jumped out in front of you or ran around a gate, you're probably going to jail. Not worth it to me. It's also a firing offense. You can be terminated for running over speed.I don't know what WEDT and EEDT mean, but there are two short tunnels between those signals on that stretch of single track. Each one is close to, and named after, the respective signal. Pinkerton tunnel and Shoofly tunnel.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
May-06-01, 08:13 PM (EST) 46. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" WEDT = West end of damned tunnel ???
EEDT = East end of damned tunnel ??? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (53 posts)
May-05-01, 11:09 AM (EST) 42. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" If you want to print off a post you might want to try highlighting the desired text and copying and pasting it to a text editor or word processor. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
May-05-01, 02:09 PM (EST) 43. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Hi Robber:After a couple of hours and several wasted sheets of paper, I finally solved the riddle of how to print a particular message on this forum. Just click on the message in the list. It turns pink and then click on the word "print" at the top of the screen and Voila !! You have your chosen note printed out.I finally printed Master Qui-Gon's message for future reference. Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (53 posts)
May-05-01, 11:07 AM (EST) 41. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Excellent description! Many thanks!! I THOUGHT that in that situation you might want to set the brakes at the top of the hill and leave them on but I always had this nagging voice in the back of my head saying that if you leave the brakes set for too long, they will eventually overheat and burn out, but I guess that's FAR better than putting it in the dirt! How long can a car be rolled with the brakes applied before the brakes overheat and diminished braking occur?I also found a very informative description here, which filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding. I've always liked trains and would trade jobs with you in a heartbeat. I started searching for train sims for the PC a couple of years ago and was a little suprised to find that there wasn't a great deal out there. I thought at the time that given the number of people who have dreamed of driving a train, there would be more sims available, but I guess in the eyes of most software developers people's desire to run around in a maze with a shotgun was greater... Anyway, I played around with Mechanik and RailSim and tried to decipher something I downloaded from Japan but I really felt that there was a large gaping hole in the simulation department. I really thought that that hole would be filled by Trainmaster and to a certain extent it was though not to the extent I had hoped. In their defense, it must be acknowleged that they are a small outfit and accurately simulating the physics of a train is a daunting task. However, I would have liked to see a little more variation ie: a schedule, meets, being put on different tracks etc. I also think that no variation in the control stand and not being able to see your own train was a big mistake. Also, they were late getting it out! Grrrrr! I had heard about it via Vern almost a year before I actually got my hands on it, which was about six months after the promised release date. Oh well, MS was late releasing Win95...I must say, I'm extremely excited about MSTS, especially the route editor. You might bee seeing Kicking Horse pass, complete with spiral tunnels sometime in the future. For now, I still run TM4 from time to time, though I've taken to increasing the probability of an adverse signal to make it interesting... Hmmmmm, that leads to another question: Do you ever get hit with a stop signal when taking a heavy train down a steep hill? Bet that leads to some colourful language... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-06-01, 08:15 PM (EST) 47. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Do you ever get hit with a stop signal when taking a heavy train down a steep hill? Bet that leads to some colourful language... Well, hopefully, if you have a serious tonnage train and you're heading down a grade, the dispatcher will be on the ball and let you know in advance that he/she may have to stop you, or better yet, avoid that situation if possible.
If not, all stop signals are preceded with an "approach" at the preceding signal, and since the engineer knows the terrain from memory, they know they have to stop in approximately 2 miles, or whatever the distance to the next signal. I don't know how one would handle that particular situation, since applying enough air to stop anywhere on the hill would result in having the conductor tying 30+ handbrakes and releasing and recharging the air before proceeding. I haven't had that happen yet. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jm1941 (42 posts)
May-07-01, 03:27 AM (EST) 48. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" G'day Jay,You have put the train handling in this post very well and simply put.
Never handled a 20,000ton train or experienced helper engines shoving, except when an engine failed and had to be pulled back or pushed out of a section. Our old load limits were 2,000 tons. (this is years back now) Can you please enlighten me a bit on a point in your post 37.I've been now catching up on Diesels of late mostly about the US engines for now and came across a web page of a fellow who chased and photographed a big train that had Helpers to help push the load over a steep grade. One particular photo showed twin diesel helpers detaching while going uphill to get ready to return to their station. The following is what was stated below under the photo. "The pushers cut off on the fly at Terra Alta. The train itself NEVER stops, but the pushers stop and change ends for the trip back down to either M&K Junction or back to Newburg for another shove."I'm not from the US so have not idea where this place is, but that is not important. Here is stated the train NEVER STOPS, so I take this to mean they must PUSH with NO AIR hoses coupled to train they are pushing.
It appears here that the 2nd person (Conductor) must while the helper engines are pushing lift the pin (Coupling lever) to release the engines from the back of the train. Is this correct.In your post 37 you said:- "With a train that heavy, there will certainly be helper engines shoving me from the rear. We stop with the least amount of air brakes possible to let them cut away and go back to their home terminal where they tied on."Here you stop your train. Does this mean the helper engines have the air cut into your train and need to stop to uncouple the engines and air hoses. (Is so, is there an air test involved) Is this correct, or is this sort of thing done either way in the US on certain Railways. Very Interested on this point. John. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-07-01, 12:08 PM (EST) 49. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Ahhh, very observant John.
Actually there is an easy explanation to the descrepancy between desciptions of stopping to cut off helpers, and having them cut off on the fly.
Again, what I say applies to the territory I run on and may vary elsewhere.
We have for years had helpers tie on to our rear and they do couple the air hoses and cut in our air. To do this, they have to take off our EOT (end of train) device that tells us how much air pressure we have on the rear. We do an air test that is communicated between the head end crew and the helper to make sure brakes are applying both on front and rear of train. Once at the top of the hill, we stop, let them cut away and we each continue on to our respective destinations.
Only recently, we have begun using what is called a helper link.
This lets the helper couple to the rear without tying any brake hoses at all. The conductor on the helper dials in our EOT # to the link device which is located on the rear/coupling end of the helper unit. From inside the helper cab, the engineer can read our air reading and can do an air test as normal. Instead of reading his air guage to tell us when brakes are appying and releasing, he reads this helper link device to observe the same application and release. A 5 lb. reduction or increase represents application and release of brakes. Then at the top of the hill, once we have most of our tonnage over the summit, the helper throws a switch and the pin is pulled. Sometimes it doesn't work and the conductor, does end up having to go physically pull the pin.
Not all helper units have this link yet, so we do both practices. Sometimes we stop, sometimes we keep rolling and let them cut away on the fly.
Hope all this makes sense.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jm1941 (42 posts)
May-07-01, 06:03 PM (EST) 50. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" G'day Jay,Thanks for that much apprciated, I understood that perfectly, and well put too.
Now it all makes a lot of sense, that had me a bit baffled, where the air is involved.
My observations comes from being 30 years in the job until 1992, now retired, and I pick up those sort of things.
Would like to see one of those whopping trains in action from the Cab of the front and those helpers just to see the difference from then, to now.Just had a thought, I nearly piddle myself everytime in all those movies where trains are concerned. I do not think I've seen one movie that is realistic where the air and the uncoupling of trains or engines in the plot is concerned. What a lot of crap to reality hey.John. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-07-01, 06:53 PM (EST) 51. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" When they incorporate trains into movies, there are always some small things that railroaders know are unrealistic, but the one that seems most glaring, and is almost always done wrong; Most movies, no matter the budget, plot or intent, show a character step out or fall in front of a train. They don't get out of the way and WHAM!!! they're dead. Rarely, do the trains EVER stop in the movie. In reality, if a train hits you, they are going to put the train in emergency and stop. Most will be relieved from the "critical incident" and sent home. Obviously, with a two mile long train, if you are riding cars or playing around and manage to get under my train somewhere back where I can't see you, then I'll keep going, unaware that there's been an accident, but unless every engineer in the movies is asleep, he's going to ##### a brick and dump the air if he hits someone. Even as much as I act like I've shut my emotions off regarding people running crossings, if I get close, my adrenalin is coursing, and my hand is on that pretty red handle, just in case. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (53 posts)
May-07-01, 08:00 PM (EST) 52. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" I hear ya about movie realism. My favorite example was Stephen Segal leaping onto a moving train and landing on both feet with only a slight bend of the knees...Anyway, to more interesting (and fun) matters, I tried to set up a few runs in TM4 similar to what you described earlier. I used the DRGW eastbound track and the 80 car unit coal train (might as well go for the gusto!). While about 1-2 miles from the east portal of Moffatt tunnel I began to slow the train down using a combination of gravity and dynamic braking and was doing about 10-15 mph when exiting the tunnel and beginning the descent. I found that as the bulk of the train was still moving up a slight grade (inside the tunnel) I had to give it a little throttle until it was roughly balanced on the summit. At that point I switched to dynamic braking and began a brake pipe reduction. With the default brake pipe feed pressure of 90 psi, I ended up needing a 20 psi reduction to control the descent. Now seeings how a 26 psi reduction gives you full braking, this didn't leave much left over for stopping. So I went back and re-read this article and decided to try it again with 100 psi brake pipe pressure. Talk about a difference! That time I only needed a 12-13 psi reduction to achieve the same level of control. But I can really see how this isn't something you can just learn in a book but is a "feel" developed over many years...Now what speed would one typically maintain in such a scenario? Even though the track speed was 25-30 mph, I wasn't terribly comfortable letting it get up much past 15 mph. That's one of the other complaints with TM4. There are a lot of unfilled gaps in their explainations. Would you want to be running such a behemoth down 40 miles of 1.8% grade? They've included it as a typical consist so it must be representative of day to day operations. But I guess there's another potentially huge topic for discussion: Railroad traffic issues and track speed issues and how they affect train consists and scheduling and...aaah! maybe I should stop thinking about all this extra stuff and just enjoy the sim for what it is.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-07-01, 10:09 PM (EST) 53. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" We use 90 lbs. of brake pipe pressure for freight, and that is not allowed to be adjusted enroute. The only time we're supposed to change that is when shoving a cut of 50 cars or more(presumably in a switching or doubling move within the yard) Then brake pipe pressure should be set to 80 lbs.
Regarding slowing when you're cresting the grade. One usually wouldn't use dynamics while still going uphill because it would cause the rest of the train to run in on you and that's a real bad place to risk a bunch leak. You would also have a helper shoving, increasing the risk. (not to mention putting his nose against his window, which he won't like) You found out that you had to go after the throttle again. Instead, try notching off the throttle in advance, but keeping some throttle on to pull you over the top. If track speed is 25-30, you're good to be exiting the tunnel or starting your descent at 10-15. That's identical to what I do with a tonnage train. If speed starts to pick up more than you want, don't go after dynamic right away. apply minimum air instead. this will cause entire train to retard instead of just the head end, and will prevent having the train smack you in the a$$. Then go after dynamic to see if you can keep train at desired speed without applying more air. On our grade, you can't exceed 18 lb. reduction, so in reality, you would have had to stop your train in the description you gave. I had a 15,000 ton, 112 car coal train on Sunday. I had two AC's on the head end and it handled like a dream. I had it under or on speed most of the way down the hill with just minimum air application. I got 3 mph over speed towards the bottom because I was too busy shooting the breeze with the conductor and got complacent. I went after it and got it back to track speed right away though. If your power works properly, it's all about paying attention to what the train is doing. Now when the brakes release, or the dynamics fail halfway down the grade....THAT's when things get interesting. But that's a discussion for another day.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
May-07-01, 10:47 PM (EST) 54. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Hi Jay
The more I read your very informative notes I think the old Trainmaster program is pretty close to reality. you mention 112 cars at 15000 tons = 134 gross tons/car. Their standard 100 ton capacity coal hopper is 31.5 + 100 tons = 131.5 tons.
Am I correct in assuming that when using dynamic brake alone everything slams up against the engines? When I tried those 200 cars, some 26,000 ton with those SD50MAC AC powered trains it worked pretty well no problems. I don't quite understand why the traction is so much better with AC powered locos. Do you have any idea what the theory behind their traction is?
Enough for now. Have a good ride tomorrow Jay.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-09-01, 11:07 PM (EST) 57. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" I can't really get into the technical side of traction motors and dynamic braking myself. I'm not particularly mechanically inclined. I know that sounds wierd for an engineer, but the training program in the last few years has essentially eliminated the mechanical portion, or at least limited it to the bare minimum. I am definitely more of an operator than anything. My skills lie in tonnage train handling, as opposed to mastering the mechanical side. Others know every nut and bolt of the engine, but can't get a train over the hill without it running away on them. And then there are the few that just know it all inside and out. Mechanics, rules, handling etc. I'm not there yet. My focus is on handling and safety, being fairly new. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (53 posts)
May-08-01, 09:37 AM (EST) 55. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Aaah! I see! That's something else missing from TM4...in train dynamics, though I'm not sure how that would be simulated. Loud bangs maybe? Actually, the reason I tried it with 100 psi air is that I read that this is used by some railroads in mountain territory. Not sure if that is true with DRGW (or is it UP now?). I tried slowing for the crest of the hill a couple of times just using the throttle. Definitely a move that needs a great deal of practice. I can see why they assign you guys to one section of railroad as once you've learned it well the only variable (other than weather!) is the train itself which is probably enough of a challenge.
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-09-01, 11:10 PM (EST) 58. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Absolutely. There are rules of thumb, but every train is different. Even trains of the same weight, lenght and type of car can react completely differently from one trip to the next. And don't even get me started on the different engines.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (53 posts)
May-08-01, 01:44 PM (EST) 56. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Another question I have is in the (rudimentary) cab control setup in TM4 there is an ammeter that reflects both current drawn by the traction motors, as well as current generated when in dynamic braking mode. On the dynamic braking side there is a "red line" at about 450 amps. Can this line be exceeded (DB set to level 7 or 8) or would one be doing a little "arc welding" at that point? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
May-09-01, 11:25 PM (EST) 59. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" If you still have some dynamic to give (meaning simply that the handle is not all the way "on" or at "8" in dynamic braking), and you're not slowing down, or are already going over speed, you can put it all on. The redline is something that you wouldn't want to occupy for extended periods of time, but if you're in the red that long, then the train isn't slowing or holding the way you want, and you'll be applying more air anyway to supplement the dynamic braking that has proven to be insufficient. Something I forgot to mention when discussing your applying air when experimenting with coal trains on 2% grade...after making a minimum air reduction (6 to 8 lbs), any further reductions are made in 1 or 2 lb. increments. Of course, if the brake handle is overly sensitive, you might go for 2 and accidentally get 6. Then you're in trouble when you get to a level area or sag. You'll find yourself pulling at full power and still have your rear end hanging up. I've said it many times, it's quite embarrasing to get stuck going DOWNHILL.
Back to putting dynamics in the red on the gauge. It's the same as I described when in power. It won't blow up if you go into the red, it's just not advisable to stay in those zones for long periods of time, or you do risk burning up traction motors.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Robber Baron (53 posts)
May-10-01, 06:55 PM (EST) 60. "RE: Question for Master Qui-Gon" Yeah I've been experimenting with the same run, setting it up the way you described: Burning off speed on the hill and once the train starts "tipping" over the crest (at @ 10-12 mph) doing a 6-8 lb set and gradually adding dynamic brakes and further 1-2 lb reductions. It's hard to see exactly what the brake pressure gauges are reading and I'm hoping MSTS does a better job of providing indications. I know it's just an approximation but it's still interesting to learn approximately how it's done.On another note, I've found a few railroad preservation societies in England who offer various "packages" where for a fee one can learn how to fire and drive a steam loco. Does anyone know of anyone who has been to one of these and is the experience worth the travel time and money spent? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jm1941 (42 posts)
Apr-10-01, 04:30 PM (EST) 25. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" I have been following with much interest the posts in "Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster Demo" between Jay and Jim, especially the Independant and Train brakes part, good stuff lads, enjoyed it. Been retired from the railways for some 9 years now. Good to read some first hand railway experiences again, have missed that.Perhaps Jay can tell the readers here that on those long and at times slow trips and that you cannot doze off because of that little button called the Vigilance control ( I suppose USA engines have them) that must be depressed every five minutes or so. Also what happens if you get waylaid during your Cab duties and it does go off before you get the chance to press the button. Am interested in your remarks about it.
I only say this for those serious future Train-Simmers as it will show them that this is another regular chore for the engineman, engineer, driver.... I'm not from the USA, so not conversant with the exact rail terminology used.By the way can you tell me do all your engines (trains) have one or two crew on board these days in the USA. I'm not interested in using Trainmaster, as I'm waiting to see MS Train-sim, because like FltSim for the future add-ons that will be created for it, and for my age I do not like the continual learning curves of different programs, one reason I always stayed with MSFS only from its very early days.
Here is one question for anyone using the Trainmaster Sim, as I know nothing about this Sim at all.
Can you tell me, is your Trainmaster Sim that real life, that it has this vigilance control installed. Curious.... Hope it is in MS Train-Sim, it is a very necessary button, and it will drive you nuts at first. It's to stop you dosing off in those nice comfy warm air conditioned closed in cabs, not like the good old real air conditioned steam train days, fried on one side, frozen on the other.
I reckon the first thing that will appear as a post here is… "Help??? Where in the Sim can I turn this darn thing off". But in real life you learn to develop what we called "the 5 minute jab" after awhile you do it without even thinking about it. Interesting hey…. You do not do this in FltSim….. This next bit is to do with every train, but it could not be truly replicated into a Train Sim with the true feeling in as much as to real life, this has to be experienced to appreciate, if you could call it that.
Yes Jay, I can very, very much relate to how you feel concerning those B......y idiots who think they can beat, or fail to keep a sharp look out for trains. I personally think that everyone caught doing this, should be made to do a trip on the front of the engine (not in the cab) just to see what it feels like… CLOSE UP. It is frightening stuff. Even being in the engine as the observer is bad enough, but much harder when your hand is actually on that air brake handle and it's up to you to try and judge a possible situation you cannot control. Yes it is an engine driver's worst nightmare.
I use to hate travelling through the low Mallee country in a 2 or 3 set Passenger Railcars, one foot on the deadman's pedal doing the track speed of 70MPH and these Mallee trees which grow thickly to about 15feet high nearly right up to the track. It was always a worry belting along at 70 mph (max track speed) and every few miles would be these dirt road crossings and every couple of trips or so, one would have a farmer's ute or truck just tear out from behind the trees not even looking and across the track right in front of you. Most times when they go across the track there is never any trains, BUT then one day there is one and do they get the shock of their life (so do you) your tearing at the horn rope and slamming the brakes full on trying to judge just if and when to vacate the driver's cab of the railcar. I tell you your heart rate goes from normal to 1000 beats a second, well it feels like that. I know a few Railcar drivers over the years who did have that terrifying experience of flinging the cab door open and yelling at the top of their voice to the passenger's astonished faces sitting in the front car "HANG ON EVERYONE...we are going to hit... bearly having time to brace for the impact... and then BANG, or should I say a huge EXPLOSION, I'm told it is something you never forget. This was one reason you always leave the cab door slightly ajar.
The door was suppose to be closed,,, BUT..... I think preservation, before rules, comes into play here.But I think the worst railway crossing scenario is and Jay you would certainly relate to this one I think.
It is that clown who is travelling rather fast up the road towards the crossing at a bat out of hell, he has already seen you way back or the crossing gongs going, so he knows your coming, no high heart rate for him or her. Here you are coming up the track, you look at the driver in fast moving vehicle and he is NOT looking at you coming down the track, but his head is looking straight ahead and your getting a bit worried by now that he has not noticed you and is he going to try and tear across the crossing and you start nibbling the air slightly, not that you can do anything if he hasn't seen you anyway and the longer the train, the worse it is. Then this clown stands on his vehicle brakes and comes to a sudden stop just as you about hit the crossing, and he or she looks up at you as you shoot past with a silly grin and waves to you as you are recharging the train pipe (cursing) from the slight brake reduction you made back some way. THAT sort of thing use to bug us off the most, and one would be surprise just how many times this scenario happens somewhere on just about every trip. All you do as you go past is shake your head and give a little wave back and say under your breath.. "YES,,,, Some mothers DO ....... have them" and your then heart relaxes a bit for the moment. It can be very stressful on you at times, big or small trains. xC
Jay's definition of this was interesting:- "I'm thinking (and sometimes saying outloud) "OK, Bubba, you just stay the hell off my tracks!" So to others who may be reading this post and are not real time engine drivers, the next time if you tear up to a rail crossing and are not trying to do something stupid, then at least look towards the coming train. Then at the very least that gives the engineman some relief in as much as to know that he sees you looking at the train coming and hopefully of course you are really going to stop and not going to commit suicide. Better still start slowing your car down way back, not the near instant dead stop at the last minute, just short of the crossing. The driver may give you a more enthusiastic wave then. Sorry got a bit carried away here, but Jay you touched on a sore point concerning Railway crossings in general.Note any newspaper headings, "Train HITS vehicle"
Instead it should be written:- "There was a collision at such & such crossing and the stupid driver of vehicle failed to stop". The write-up is most times printed in such a way that this train leap off the tracks, headed down the road, grabbed this vehicle and pulled it back onto the tracks and smashed it to bits. I shake my head in wonder every time. Like I said IF only they knew what is like from the train's driver view.Ex Railwayman.
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jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-10-01, 11:15 PM (EST) 28. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Welcome aboard Ex Railwayman:
I'm sure Jay will be happy to chat with another railroader. I'm a retired engineer, but a civil engineer, not a railroad engineer. I've been fascinated by trains since I was a toddler and my dad would take me down to the rail yard to watch the steam trains shuttling back and forth. When one of the men on the locomotive waved at me that got me all excited. I feel the same way conversing with you. The conversation between Master Qui-Gon and me started out about the pros and cons of the new Trainmaster simulator. We quickly got into real railroading. My only experience with railroads in Europe was in Germany when I was in the military. I once hopped a ride in the cab of a steam locomotive barely making walking speed up a steep grade near Garmisch in the Alps mountains. Your language in the UK might be quite different from ours but I'm sure your experience is very similar to American railroaders.Please drop us a note often and share your experiences with us.
Best wishes,
Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jm1941 (42 posts)
Apr-12-01, 03:57 AM (EST) 31. "RE: Old times" G'day Jim and thanks for the Welcome aboard.I see your retired as well, being retired boy one wonders where the years went, but made lots of memories though.You stated:-
"I've been fascinated by trains since I was a toddler and my dad would take me down to the rail yard to watch the steam trains shuttling back and forth. When one of the men on the locomotive waved at me that got me all excited."Just Loved that, especially the last part Jim, that really made my day. Those times as a youngster certainly touched one's imagination. For as a second generation railway youngster myself. My dad was a Railway Station Master and I spent my childhood days in and around steam locomotives etc. I know especially in my own early working Railway days, the kids would hear the steam loco coming and rush to the side of the track and wave madly, and when you would wave back they thought it was just great and then to give them a short blast on the whistle, they were ecstatic.
But sadly in the later years this sort of thing has faded away, probably about when Diesels appeared. I guess with kids today not much imagination anymore, too many other distractions for them, or that Steam trains were treated like a living breathing thing.
So nice to see you are still a toddler (meant in a very nice way) at heart. Yes riding the Steam footplate at that slow speed meant the locomotive was getting stuck into the steep grade and the engine would have been working full bore, fantastic hey and I bet you will never ever forget that feeling and that day either.... Hence I guess your interest in the Train-Simulator. I can hardly wait for MS Train-Sim myself now to get up and running, as I have had no Railway contact for some 9 years now as the Broad Gauge 5' 3" railway has been abandoned here since 1994, when the inter-capital city standard Gauge 4' 8" cut us off (Politics).
When I retired I took up Computing and then when FltSim came out, I got quite involved with that over the time, as when I was a toddler also had a dream that one day to fly an aircraft, but with the poorly paid Railway pay (but loved the job) could never afford to get a Pilots Licence. I have flown hands on of late a few times for real, (not logged) so FltSim has given me that great opportunity in my now elderly years, much like the Train_Sim is giving you the chance to fullfill that childhood dream. By your posts you are settling into the Train Sim quite well too.You stated:-
"Your language in the UK might be quite different from ours but I'm sure your experience is very similar to American railroaders."Er Jim, the UK, sorry try again... The clue from where I am from is in this post. And yes from what I see, yes Railways are Railways, no matter where you are on the globe. Just different rules and odd bits.Best Regards,
Ex Railwayman John. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-12-01, 12:58 PM (EST) 33. "RE: Old times" Dumb of me not to recognize your Aussie greeting wasn't it John?The Aussies are so independent minded that each Railway man chooses his own track gauge. Must lead to some inconveniences ie. carrying two sets of trucks for each train.Its really so amazing to me how these computers have brought the people of the world so much closer together. I can remember when I was in Korea, how long it took for mail from home to reach me. When I was in Vietnam the time had been shortened considerably, and now the mail travels between you and me almost instantaneously. Should go a long way toward peace on earth, as people who know each other often become friends and friends don't make war against each other.I too enjoy MS Flight simulator. I took up flying quite a few years ago. Did quite a lot of flying during my military service and after my retirement managed to get all my licenses with our GI education bill picking up most of the tab. Haven't done any flying as pilot for a few years now due to partial deafness but enjoy the simulator.As for the train simulator, I too am looking forward to the introduction of the MS simulator. Hope it is not a disappointment.
I have had an old version of Trainmaster for quite a few years. It is not for people with little imagination. The graphics are sadly lacking. The sound is excellent, although I have lost the sound in updating to a new more modern computer. The old DOS program sound is not supported by my new Microsoft Windows version Me, so now I have to have an even better imagination. I still enjoy that program because it allows me to choose all kinds of locomotives (American only) and cars and make all kinds of experiments with power and grades, etc. on a very extensive choice of track, much more extensive than is offered with the new version of Trainmaster and it looks like it is more extensive than the MS Sim will offer initially, although the MS sim may gain a lot of track as it goes on.I've been enjoying chewing the rag with Master Qui-Gon and I look forward to doing the same with you John.
Best wishes,
Jim McCarthy Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-11-01, 09:42 AM (EST) 29. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Greetings Ex Railway Man (sounds like a new super hero )
I'll try to answer your inquiries in order.
We have something similar to your vigilance control button. In the U.S., it's called an alerter. Every so often, if the throttle, horn or brakes are not used or don't change position, the engine recognizes the inactivity and sounds an alarm or shows a flashing light display or various combinations of both. We have to hit a button, plunger or smack a metal spring that sticks out of the control panel in any number of places. It goes back to what I was saying about no manufacturer of engines putting everything in the same place all the time. Usually referred to as an "acknowledge" button. If you don't push (or usually smack the $hit out of in annoyance ) within a set amount of time, it applies the brakes and will stop the train. It's called a penalty application. Contrary to what some think, it does not initiate an emergency application, but enough to stop the train. I forget exactly how much air is applied.CSX and most U.S. railroads I'm aware of use two person crews on freight trains. An engineer and a conductor, both ride in the engine cab as cabooses are no longer used. The company would love to move to one man crews for cost, but it's simply not practicle at this point, and most state laws require two people.Regarding people running crossings. If I see you well in advance and see you're stuck on the tracks or stalled, I'm going to put the train in emergency and try to stop, or at least slow down enough to give you a chance to get out of the way. Here's the cold sounding part and I hope people can understand. I run freight, with loaded HazMat cars with various levels of toxic or explosive properties. If you're playing chicken with me, or trying to run the crossing at the last second, or standing on the tracks deliberately. Guess what. I'm going to blow the horn like hell, and hope you make it, or move. I WILL NOT put that kind of train in emergency and take the chance of derailing my train and killing everyone in town with poisonous gas or a series of explosions. I'll throttle off, or make a brake application and hope you have a brain. If you don't move, or your survival instinct is not developed to the point where you yield in a game of chicken....I win. If I hit you, THEN I'll stop the train by putting the train into emergency as required. It's a judgement call, but I can't kill many to save one. If I have 15,000 tons of train, putting the train into emgergency wouldnt' stop me anyway. Not in time that is. Maybe 3/4 of a mile later. Like I said, I don't want to hit anyone, but it's a hell of a lot easier for them to move, than for me to stop. Simple physics. I'm a believer in Darwinism and evolution. You play chicken with a train and lose, you don't spread your genes to another generation of idiots. I'm making light of a serious situation, but it's just my way of not getting upset about it. Not only do they often die, they kill us or innocent children who are passengers in the back seat. NOTHING pisses me off more than some person running the crossing gates and I see kids in the back of a mini van. Or worse yet, I almost ran over some idiot on foot running in the rain with a baby stroller. Horn blaring, gates down, lights flashing. GRRRRRRRRR
I got so upset, my conductor had to tell me to sit down and shut up, we didnt' hit them. The rest of the trip I was fit to be tied.
Talk at you guys later.Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
davereage (123 posts)
Apr-11-01, 12:11 PM (EST) 30. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hi guys, although I'm not a railway engineeer (although I'd love to be!) I grew up right beside railway tracks on CN's Oakville subdivision in Mississauga Ontario. These are very busy tracks with frequent freight trains, along with Amtrack and Via Rail Trains bound for Toronto, on top of that, this section of track was home to the busy route on the GO Transit commuter rail system (I lived between Long Branch and Port Credit stations for anyone familiar with the area).I was only young then, but I can remember soooo may times when people were killed along these tracks simply for being stupid. People darting around crossing gates etc.. It must be horrible for an engineer who kills someone, I can't imagine the guilt, even though the engineer is at no fault.I also agree with the statement made about stopping a long chemical filled train in an emergency. These tracks run through a very highly populated area, the results of a chemical spill would be disasterous. Actually, in 1980, a train full of chlorine derailed and a record (which I think still stands to this day) was accomplished by the city of Mississauga: Largest evacuation without loss of life.Dave Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jm1941 (42 posts)
Apr-12-01, 04:05 AM (EST) 32. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" G'day Jay,
First of all, I am definitely NOT (a new super hero) but not sure what you meant here.I am a just an very ordinary now retired second generation Railwayman. My father was a Country Railway Station Master and during all my childhood we have always lived on or very close to Railway Station Premises. Sort of been on the job all the time till this latter part of my life. I've grown up with Railways in my blood so to speak and as soon as I was old enough I joined the Railways as well. Looking back over the many years of service, I have had a very fortunate and enjoyable time. From the Steam days, through the transition of Diesels, to all Diesels. For me I have served in many different parts on the Traffic side of railways, hated being in an office, always loved the hands on part and I had been very fortunate to be able to swap to different parts and areas of the job in that respect. A good deal of my time was as a Supervising Ground Shunter, that for me that was much better than driving diesels. Home with the feet under the table every night. But those younger Steam engine days well.... that is another thing... Ahh yesss... Even spent the last 2 years before retirement and by my choice, working in two yard signal cabins. So been around the traps a good bit over the years, giving me a good insight into most aspects of railway working.Thanks for explaining the alerter, my, my, things have certainly changed a bit. When I last was on a Goodwin Alco 930 class (going back quite some time here and those diesels would have been a baby in comparison in horsepower to the engines you use now) the vigilance control on these engines only worked over a certain time span only, requiring it to be depressed at around every 5 minutes (never actually timed it) but it was not interlocked with any other parts of the engine like you have explained. Fail to depress this button and at first a slow air whistling sounded and gradually building up to a very high pitched shriek till it was absolutely ear splitting. (no one could doze through that) If not depressed in sufficient time, then the brakes were automatically applied. The high pitch sound was so great and totally unbearable that I doubt very much if any engine ever had its emergency brakes applied, well I never witnessed it anyway.
To get your train going again meant you had to break a seal and open a panel to reset the air brake control back". No way you could hide that this had happened, not only is the seal to the panel broken, but it registered on the Clock Roll for all the heads to see. Steam locomotives never had this or clock rolls.Good to see that the 2 crews are still on the diesel engines. It would be a catastrophe waiting to happen with one man crews. But with these modern times, money and profits more often than not come before people.Well Jay your point on the cold sounding part concerning rail crossings had certainly seem to touch my whole point exactly. I can really appreciate your attitude as in my time under the circumstances we never carried train loads of toxic or dangerous chemicals etc, well not in large quantities that could cause a major catastrophe / disaster, so one never had to think of that sort of scenario you mentioned and I do not envy the loco drivers today. Worst case scenerio for us was loaded fuel tankers and they were always marshalled on or near the back of the train, with ordinary loading between them and the engine(s) for such safety reasons.
In a way now I wished I had not said anything about this crossing bit, but initially I thought I would try and convey the feeling of what it is like to other interested readers here from a driver's (engineers) and 2nd person's (Conductor) point of view as to what it is really like in the cab. I think this subject is well covered now. My sincere apologies if I upset you by bringing this up, but I think it has shown that driving an engine(s) is definitely not all beer and skittles. (the beer comes afterwards, to settle the nerves) Best Regards
Ex Railwayman John
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Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Apr-12-01, 02:15 PM (EST) 34. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" No problem, it didn't upset me, it's just one of many subjects that have caused me to lose my faith in humanity's average intelligence. When I was in school, I was accused of being intelligent. Since that time, I've discovered I'm damn near genius compared to the masses. I don't know about other countries, but of the 250 million people in the U.S., 245 million of them are idiots. Hence the popularity of professional wrestling among grown people. Master Qui-Gon Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Apr-12-01, 03:28 PM (EST) 35. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Hi Master Qui Gon:I was very good at hiding my intelligence from my school teachers. None of them ever accused me of having the least bit of intelligence.
Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
denodan (34 posts)
Jul-15-01, 01:10 AM (EST) 65. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" TrainMaster is rubbish. Reminds me of a very old program. Not worth buying. I had the Demo, and totally rubbish. Looks like a really old game, and comes no where near MSTS. Microsoft Train Simulator is the only train Simulator worth buying, and is light years ahead of Trainmaster. TrainMaster truly sucks bigtime. And looks so old compared to MSTS. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
landnrailroader (3 posts)
Jul-27-01, 08:40 PM (EST) 66. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" I have had a copy of TM4 for several months, and really like it. Although I have not run any real trains recently, I did get to as a scab when I worked for the Southern many years ago. The sounds are quite correct when running freight, but suffer terribly when running passenger. F-40 diesels run at a constant speed, and tra ction power is varied by changing the field excitation on the main alternator. This is because the prime mover must also supply the 60hz. HEP. If you get called out to run one of the CSX inspection trains you will know what I mean.Robert Leilich, whose father, George, was once VP Ops. of the old WM, is the perpetrator of TM-4. He is planning more stuff for it, but I doubt he really intends to compete with MSTS.J. H. Sullivan, P.E.
RETIRED from CSX Engineering Dept.(and proud of it, and proud to have been with CSX for 20+ years) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jimmccarthy (91 posts)
Jul-28-01, 01:31 AM (EST) 67. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Thank you for this interesting note Mr. Sullivan. I think you intended it for Jay,(Master Qui Gon) who is an engineer with CSX but I'm interested too. I didn't know about the F-40 diesel running at constant RPM, like the lighting plant diesels do.A while back I emailed an inquiry to Trainmaster and Ms. Leilich answered it, so she must be still associated with Trainmaster.Having recently purchased the new Microsoft train simulator, it rekindled my interest in my old Trainmaster version 4 and version 3.2 simulators. For accuracy of simulation, Trainmaster has it all over Microsoft but I enjoy running both simulators.
It is interesting to see how many real railroaders have taken an interest in these simulators. Is there a possibility that a simulator might be produced to familiarize prospective engineers with the equipment and the routes? Or is this already in use?Jim McCarthy, P.E. MSCE Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Master Qui Gon (102 posts)
Jul-28-01, 11:10 AM (EST) 68. "RE: Not terribly impressed with Trainmaster demo" Where did you work for CSX, J.H.?
I run freight west out of Cumberland, Maryland, but only hired out in 1998. Received my engineer certification in March.Master Qui-Gon
aka: Jay Eyler Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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