Inclined tracks?

Does anybody knows if in msts2 the curves are (or can be) inclined?
It makes the simulation much real!And the sound? How is it? There are a tipic sount at switchs?thanks

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: inclined tracks?, ssw_96, May-17-03, 09:15 PM, (1) RE: inclined tracks?, OhioCentral6325, May-18-03, 03:37 PM, (2) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-18-03, 07:10 PM, (3) RE: inclined tracks?, Motley24Crue2, May-18-03, 08:00 PM, (4) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-18-03, 08:08 PM, (5) RE: inclined tracks?, Motley24Crue2, May-18-03, 08:11 PM, (6) RE: inclined tracks?, Hack, May-18-03, 09:00 PM, (7) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-18-03, 09:07 PM, (8) RE: inclined tracks?, Hack, May-18-03, 09:14 PM, (9) RE: inclined tracks?, crow357, May-18-03, 09:23 PM, (10) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-18-03, 09:35 PM, (11) RE: inclined tracks?, crow357, May-18-03, 09:38 PM, (12) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-18-03, 09:41 PM, (13) RE: inclined tracks?, sstyrnol, May-20-03, 09:52 AM, (31) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-20-03, 10:16 AM, (32) RE: inclined tracks?, sstyrnol, May-20-03, 10:53 AM, (33) RE: inclined tracks?, dyvach, May-19-03, 01:45 PM, (14) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-19-03, 02:05 PM, (15) RE: inclined tracks?, ruifonseca, May-19-03, 06:44 PM, (16) RE: inclined tracks?, dyvach, May-19-03, 07:05 PM, (17) RE: inclined tracks?, ruifonseca, May-19-03, 07:19 PM, (18) RE: inclined tracks?, OhioCentral6325, May-19-03, 09:01 PM, (19) RE: inclined tracks?, ctillier, May-19-03, 09:49 PM, (21) RE: inclined tracks?, OhioCentral6325, May-21-03, 04:11 PM, (34) RE: inclined tracks?, Hack, May-19-03, 09:43 PM, (20) RE: inclined tracks?, ctillier, May-19-03, 09:57 PM, (22) RE: inclined tracks?, ruifonseca, May-20-03, 07:14 AM, (27) RE: inclined tracks?, ctillier, May-19-03, 10:13 PM, (23) RE: inclined tracks?, asamtrak911, May-20-03, 01:36 AM, (24) RE: inclined tracks?, dyvach, May-20-03, 04:34 AM, (25) RE: inclined tracks?, xlspecial261, May-20-03, 06:15 AM, (26) RE: inclined tracks?, ruifonseca, May-20-03, 07:34 AM, (28) RE: inclined tracks?, ctillier, May-20-03, 08:11 AM, (29) RE: inclined tracks?, crisjss, May-20-03, 08:52 AM, (30)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

From what Macster said, the sound will blow you away. I hope it does not have that horrible clanking noise that it did in version1

member of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SP_MSTS

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Are you talking about superelevation?

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

First sorry but I don't understand much English... When I say inclined track on curves I want to say track with some pith... inclined to the center of the curve, so that the train can do the curve with more speed. Like in the real tracks. If msts2 don't have this it's very bad!thanks

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

you mean Banked Curves? Robert Steskal
Philadelphia, Pa

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

YES!
It's that!Anybody knows if msts2 have BANKED CURVES?tkx

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Well i guess no one knows for sure, it's way to Early to really say what it has, hopefully in the next few week we will all know a lot more about msts2.Robert Steskal
Philadelphia, Pa

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

OhioCentral6325 used the correct terminology - banked curves are refered to as "Super-Elevated" or "Super-Elevation" on the prototype. Banked curves are on race tracks. As for MSTS-2, super-elevation will not be in the sim. Perhaps in MSTS-3...Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-18-03 AT 09:16 PM (EDT)

Then, I'm very disappointed with msts2...
(Look, BVE can have super-elevated curves in which trains tilt!)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Yes - BVE still has the best physics (I've been told), but lacks the rich graphic environment of MSTS or Trainz.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Who cares whether the trains tilt or not. I just want to run trains in a prototypical manner and actually be able to create scenarios without a dang PHD.Heck, what I want is a scenario creation utility. It looks at all the sidings, businesses on the route, creates a timetable of AI trains and gives me a work order.Make it playable, THEN make the trains tilt.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-18-03 AT 09:35 PM (EDT)

Yes... but it still have the word "simulator" in its name...
(I care)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I agree crisjss, but IMO superelevation is a minor point compared to the huge void of operation that was found in MSTS.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hummmm... well... in fact it is minor point!
lol

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi,
Yes, BVE is quite good concerning physics as well as sounds! Another thing I greatly miss is some movement of the train itself like when the track is uneven, that you're jostled around in the cab or the rythm created by the drivers of a steam engine. Something like that can be seen in this freeware Southafrican steam loco simulation.
If MS were a little bit more open to all those good ideas around, it would be a perfect simulation.Cheers,Sebastian

---
Sebastian
sebastian.styrnol@gmx.de

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-20-03 AT 10:20 AM (EDT)

Yes it would.
But I think if we wait till msts have so versions as ms flight sim... we will have a near perfect train simulator.After all we (I) pass the time playing msts!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

But: With all the nitpicking, we shouldn't forget one thing. It is still a game, it is a hobby and therefor we ought to enjoy it, even with all the bugs in it. IMO even MSTS I was (is) already a great game and I haven't had another, on which I spend so many hours!

---
Sebastian
sebastian.styrnol@gmx.de

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

(Look, BVE can have super-elevated curves in which trains tilt!)Are you sure it's really super-elevation you want, or just trains tilting on the curves?..Am not sure if the latter actually requires the former -- track in curves is typically tilted by no more than couple of degrees, which is barely noticeable (although given, not difficult to implement) Trains on curves on the other hand, can tilt much more than that...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Is super-elevation I want... (tilting trains would be nice too).
I know the BVE beta version route Keisei, made by the BVE author himself, that have realistic super-elevated curves. It's very good.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-19-03 AT 06:45 PM (EDT)

>(Look, BVE can have super-elevated curves in which trains
>tilt!)
>
>Are you sure it's really super-elevation you want, or just
>trains tilting on the curves?..
>
>Am not sure if the latter actually requires the former --
>track in curves is typically tilted by no more than couple
>of degrees, which is barely noticeable (although given, not
>difficult to implement) Trains on curves on the other hand,
>can tilt much more than that... Acttually, the super-elevation is no more than 2º, at least in Europe.
An besides, super-elevation and tilting are quite interconected.In straight track, the mass vector of the train is perpendicular (think it is said like that in english), to the track-bed
In Physical terms, super elevation's objective is to keep the track 'perpendicular' (i think it is said like that in english), to the vectorial sum of mass (wich correspond to a Force -> F=m*a ) with the centrifugal force that exists in a cruve. the effect beeing, compensated Centrifugal force, decreesing the lateral momentum that could make a train turn over to the outsid of the track.Dimensioning a super-elevation requires a compromisse of many variables two of them beein, the max speed of the fastest train and the max speed of the slowest. This compromisse means that when a fast train passes, not all the centrifugal Force is compensated... and when a slow train passes, it is over compensated... don't worry, the security factor of this is 4 (so in a lenght of track with a max speed limit of 220kph, for the train to derail, it should be going at about 880kph... really...)Because of super-elevation is not interactive with the trains that pass in a curve and attending to the slight unconfortable effects for passangers caused by under-compensated centrifugal Force, tilting trains were invented to make it easier for the mass vector to stay perpendicular to the track. If you can not bend the track... bend the train

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-19-03 AT 07:06 PM (EDT)

Acttually, the super-elevation is no more than 2º, at least in Europe.Which is exactly why i wrote "couple of degrees". From the game engine standpoint the visualization of super-elevated track spline is trivial. The effect however is so subtle it's probably not worth the bother -- i did some tests of it, and in the end couldn't even tell which parts of the spline were tilted by these 2 degrees....Which is not to say it can't be done; just IMO isn't something that deserves top priority.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-19-03 AT 07:20 PM (EDT)

taking the physics aside... an implementation of super-elevation would be good just for visual purposes... and adding a tilting animation...for tilting trains...... for actual train physics.... it's very complicated, not to say impossible for a simulator program. To build a track with that, one would need to have a few fundamentals of Engenieering and Physics... mostly because cuve super-elevation cannot be solved for a single curve... one must take the problem has a whole... a complete track with sucessions of curves... and that's where other variables come into it: like transition curves with variable radius, for smooth transition from a straight track to a constant radius trackand back again to straight track.. or sometimes to another curved track... for the same side... or for the oposite side...Ok I've bothered you too much with rail engineering already

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I think that before we worry about superelevation, something must be done about the speed limits for each curve. On any of the routes, there have been places where I could swing a 55-mph curve at 81-mph. But a 30 mph curve, specifically the curve near the Essex Pit Sidings on Marias Pass, the train would derail at 31-mph. I have also noticed places where there's a slight curve may have a limit of 35 mph. But then the next curve is very sharp and its limit is 45!So has for superelevation, we should cross the bridge when we get to it. Right now the guys over at Microsoft and Kuju need to get their act together on those curves.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Actually there's no secret here, in my experience at least. MSTS computes whether or not you derail based on the radius of the track piece as well as the mass and derail force of the rolling stock. That part of the sim works properly in my experience-- if you set your derail force to 0.3G and calculate the speed at which you hit 0.3G of centrifugal acceleration, bingo, that's the speed at which you derail.Blame the .eng and .wag settings, not Microsoft or Kuju cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Then you is responsible for the .wag and .eng settings? Marias Pass was an orignal TS route.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>... for actual train physics.... it's very complicated, not
>to say impossible for a simulator program.No more complicated or impossible as one of Papyrus' Nascar sims. The precise calculations for any super-elevated curve can be taken directly from the coordinates of a lofted 3D model, and then transfered via plugins to a definition file (tsection, or whatever's to be used). Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I think there are two separate physics problems here1) figuring out what the superelevation should be at each point along the track. This is an art and you rightfully point out its complexities.2) once the superelevation is chosen at each point along the track, simulating the forces imparted to rolling stock.The first is hard and would probably have to be simplified to specifying a given critical speed for a given stretch of track (with appropriate interpolation at the ends, which a spline method can accommodate mathematically). The second is relatively trivial as dyvach points out.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-20-03 AT 07:35 AM (EDT)

You are right about the 180mm, in fact... it can absolutely go to a maximum of 200mmWhen I said 2º, I was talking about the general average in a conventional track with fast and slow trains. (sorry for not mentioning this) That problem does not apply to a LGV has you have the same kind of rolling stock, etc etc... that makes it very simple.if anybody is interested, the equation for calculating the maximum speed absolute speed in a curve, i.e., with maximum value for super-elevation:
v=sqrt
v=velocity (kph)
r=radius (m)
h=super-elevation (mm/m)being the maximum h, 180mm/m, comes
v=sqrt(25,55*r)And if you want to calculate the minimum radius for a given speed:r=0,03914*v*v

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ah, so much to say on this topic... In France, you can have up to 180 mm of cant on high speed LGV lines. Do the math, that's over SIX degrees... and quite obvious visually. In fact, the curvature is much less obvious than the superelevation-- see for example the opening screen for LGV Med. That's why I'm a bit disappointed that MSTS 2 won't allow me to lean my TGVs into curves. Oh well, can't have everything. cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I had an idea the other day that increased my frustration over only being allowed two animated bogies, at least in MSTS 1...As those of us who model rolling stock know, if you screw up your pivot points, your shape will be totally messed up in the sim. Bogies and wheels will spin along the wrong axes. Now, if we only had more bogie animations at our disposal, we'd be able to do some pretty neat stuff - among them, tilting trains. If you made your main object something other than the body, let's say the centersill, you could have the body as a third bogie, with its pivot points oriented such that whenever you hit a curve, it banks to the side! Granted, I'd hope the wrong-way-bogies-when-shape-is-flipped problem would be fixed too. But wouldn't that look cool??Extra bogies could also be used to make couplers pivot, especially for streetcars that traverse tight radii. Also for streetcars, you could set the trolley as a bogie so that it would pivot to follow the wire on curves. Anyway...we'll have to see what awaits us in MSTS 2.Alex Stroshane
Amtrak Prototype & Model
Photos, Train Gifs, and more!
http://www.trainweb.org/asamtrak911

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

In France, you can have up to 180 mm of cant on high speed LGV lines. Do the math, that's over SIX degrees... and quite obvious visually.Whoa. I was using just some technical papers on the local railways for the reference so didn't know that... you're right, this sort of cant would be worth simulating.That's why I'm a bit disappointed that MSTS 2 won't allow me to lean my TGVs into curves. Oh well, can't have everything. Well, it just means there is room for some new simulator which does have support for this sort of features.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

To put an American spin on this arguement, the Milwaukee Road elevated 1 degree curves at 4 1/2" to allow 100MPH operation.As far as saying people would have to go through a bunch of mathematical gymnastics to come up with the proper numbers, that would only be the case if they were building a fictional route.The prototype profiles include this information.Since the sim will not include this, it is all kinda academic for now anyway.Todd

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON May-20-03 AT 07:36 AM (EDT)

To Clem TillierI've seen the opening screen and it's a wonderfull route. please expand it...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hello,LGV Med was created by LucWeb (not me). I only made a few scenery objects for him. Luc has done a fantastic job with it, and I hope he will continue his efforts for MSTS 2.Thanks for the interesting discussion.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Anyone knows if Trainz 2004 will have superelevated curves?
The original Trainz have?Thanks

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.