A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2

my opinions, nothing more, in no particular order, while I'm eating lunch. Comments, additions, rebuttals most welcome.
a) move the display horizon of sky, satelites, and distant mountains from 2km to at least 5km.
b) add the other 11 subdirectories to terrtex so anybody who needs to can offer alternative seasonal and/or precipitation terrain textures.
c) allow specification of water textures and height by subtile (e.g., if I have a lake here and a river there let me choose which water texture to go on each).
d) Let me put seasonal water and sky texture files in the seasonal terrtex directories instead of coding their names in the .env files.
e) get rid of the .ace format
f) Throw away RE and start over again. Let users enter numeric data via the keyboard in addition to rollers.
g) Don't "close" the data architecture of the .w files from use by the developers.
h) Add more camera positions & angles w/o having to do finger-contorting key combinations.
i) Allow water behavior set on the subtile level (e.g., flow direction, wave action, etc.) instead of hardcoding it in the .env files.
j) Don't abandon track segments in favor of a so-called "all purpose" spline track that is similar to dynamic track.
k) If any new turnouts are included, set their dimensions to allow use in ladders (unlike the existing Kujo 10d).
l) Improve the signaling/ AI Train code to allow developers more flexibility in matching real RR practice.
m) Allow alternative shapes (e.g., oblongs, circles) in the terrain editing function.
n) Fix the PITA bugs, like the front coupler.
o) Lastly, and perhaps closest to my heart, don't turn MSTS 2 into the Lionel set I had as a kid, the one with the loading milk platform, log unloader, and aquarium car.IOW, give me the tools to do the job (or to do a better job) and otherwise get out of my way.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950

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RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, vince31874, Jan-09-04, 07:37 PM, (1) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, dgauci, Jan-09-04, 08:41 PM, (2) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, Hobart, Jan-09-04, 11:28 PM, (3) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, muskokaandtahoe, Jan-09-04, 11:54 PM, (4) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, OTTODAD, Jan-10-04, 08:37 AM, (5) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, muskokaandtahoe, Jan-10-04, 03:52 PM, (7) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, OTTODAD, Jan-10-04, 06:31 PM, (8) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, dgauci, Jan-11-04, 11:07 AM, (11) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, OTTODAD, Jan-11-04, 01:44 PM, (12) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, dgauci, Jan-11-04, 02:07 PM, (13) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, ctillier, Jan-10-04, 02:06 PM, (6) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, joffie, Jan-11-04, 01:59 AM, (9) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, OTTODAD, Jan-11-04, 09:42 AM, (10) RE: My Top Request, OTTODAD, Jan-12-04, 05:17 PM, (14) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, Jason_369, Jan-25-04, 00:18 AM, (15) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, OTTODAD, Jan-25-04, 01:24 PM, (16) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, mikedc3, Jan-25-04, 08:26 PM, (17) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, plainsman, Jan-26-04, 02:40 PM, (18) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, StoneC0ld, Jan-27-04, 05:36 AM, (19) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, muskokaandtahoe, Jan-27-04, 07:15 PM, (20) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, OTTODAD, Jan-27-04, 10:03 PM, (21) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, robertlearmont, Jan-28-04, 07:38 PM, (22) RE: A few thoughts on what should be in MSTS 2, CVL_Post, Feb-03-04, 05:56 PM, (23)

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-04 AT 07:38 PM (EST)

I am pretty sure of one thing....Route Editor will most likely be a totally new thing.I would imagine they are taking there time with this feature alone. One thing is for sure.... You always listen to your customers. Of all the things that need improvement... its the fact that so many people have said the route editor needs to be re-done. Also, the fact that their competition (Auran), has such an easy Surveyor (Something I use alot), they know that they want thier own product to blow theirs out of the water.Microsoft is about making money, and beating the competition.Expect to see The Route Editor be much more user friendly. A much more user friendly Route Editor means much more freelance content to be made for MSTS, and in result, that will increase users for MSTS alone.

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>o) Lastly, and perhaps closest to my heart, don't turn MSTS
>2 into the Lionel set I had as a kid, the one with the
>loading milk platform, log unloader, and aquarium car. Especially that last point, I also don't want a child's game but a realistic RR simulator. There are other products available if you want to play with toy trains. (You also didn't mention the ICBM launcher and operating searchlight car.)

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I would Add to the list...
1) Tab between cabs. i.e. 2 locos back to back for switching without having to wye all the time. Use runaround tracks like real RR's. 2) Trigger AI traffic with location events instead of relying on the timer. That way switching retards like myself can take all day switching and not have to worry about corn field meets out on the high iron.

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I forgot some:p) Manage textures for track, satelites, and terrain like any other texture. IOW, get rid of Kujo's solutions wherever they've put a texture in some other directory than /texture/*;
q) provide documentation worth the time to read.
r) adjust the eliptic to match latitude. Fix lighting to match.
s) another PITA bug is anything to do with white voids.
t) let the new RE push terrain below sea level.
u) Optimize whatever to squeeze a few more frames into the display rate.
v) Error Bias doesn't seem to respond to real numbers. It should.
w) Allow the user to save any draw subtile as a graphics file (e.g., .tga or .bmp).
x) add a new marker type for "surveyor" which will display tangent lines in RE between the pairs of a linked list.Dave Nelson

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Dave,not all these suggestions and many more voiced since the release of MSTS-1, such as more user-friendly functions asked for by me and others, can be programmed into the next release without us having to wait longer than necessary.Better Graphics, Editors, moving Route Maps and some basic functions like changing Cabs and Trains in an Activity would do to start with and get the Developers fired up replacing their no doubt outdated Routes Objects, Tracks and Rolling Stock Graphics Technology ! Other improvements will give Microsoft an excuse to generate an ongoing revenue stream, releasing new versions, adding more and more functionality as time goes on. That's what they usually do with all their Software ?! O t t o

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Well I doubt anybody on the MS MSTS2 design team is watching these threads anyway so it's all just so much talk. But talk can be fun so let me continue here. Most of the suggestions I made I strongly suspect would be realized as code simplifications, not extra complexity. Why did Kujo treat textures of track differently than textures of other shapes? Dunno, but since they did they had to *add* extra code to handle the difference. Ditto for terrtex/snow and the .env files. All of the textures in the sky and water could have simply been put in a subdirectory of terrtex and handled exactly like the snow subdirectory and used a simple case_of statement. But Kujo didn't do that. So they had to write more code to deal with the anomolous differences. Doing water at the subtile level means managing the water texture *exactly* the same way as any other terrain texture you use on a subtile. Kujo's solution of managing it in a completely different way means they had to write more code. And so on.I've been doing systems specification and design for nearly 28 years now and in my experience what I see in Kujo's work is an absence of coordinated design and coding. Their solutions are only possible in an environment where the left hand is totally unaware of what the right is doing and then the discovery of gaps and problems pop up very late in the schedule. That's when everybody cr*ps their pants and does really weird dances.If you think about it, Kujo probably worked very hard to get the basic grpahics engine working properly, no doubt their best people too... took a bit more time than expected, and then the dogs had to eat their own dog food and come up with some routes in less than planed-for-time. And lo and behold a whole bunch of non-graphics stuff had not been thought through properly and it hit them in the face and this part, supposidly the easy part, had probably been assigned to rookies, who like most amateurs, don't know design but do know how to do expedient code. Voila: we get code that asks us to hit the Q key to cycle thru the terrtex textures, the end button to increment by 1 the elevation integer, turnout shapes that can't be used to make ladders, etc., etc., etc.Dave Nelson

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Dave,I think that's one of the most accurate assessments of what happened during the development of MSTS by KUJU, only forgetting to mention the hot breath of Microsoft Marketing executives down everybody's neck at KUJU.I have been in similar situations after having designed and created Software for clients when all sorts of "Afterthoughts" crop up, forcing re-writes, bolting this and that and the other on where it was not intended and messing the whole project up. Not that bad where just TEXT and NUMBERS based DOS Software is concerned but a nightmare changing Graphics based programmes and their underlying design.To me as a programmer, the whole MSTS backbone is as inefficient as can be, files strewn all over the place, duplications everywhere. Perhaps MSTS could have done with a REGISTRY too ? We shall have to see what MICROSOFT can do with it. But with their reputation for creating "Bloatware" one can only wonder ! O t t o

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>We shall have to see what MICROSOFT can do with it. But with
>their reputation for creating "Bloatware" one can only
>wonder ! Microsoft's reputation for "bloatware" refers to their history of jamming every possible feature no matter how esoteric into their products, not shoddy programming. We could only be so lucky to have that many new 'features' introduced.

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Dennis,the main purpose of many of these "New Features" is that they are there simply to justify paying for another "Update" and not because users have asked for nor needed them ! O t t o

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>the main purpose of many of these "New Features" is that
>they are there simply to justify paying for another "Update"
>and not because users have asked for nor needed them ! Which circles us back to the point of why it's called "bloatware", not because it is shoddy programming.

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My top request:Canted track! I can't stand flying around a curve without properly leaning into it.cheers

--
Clem

http://www.tillier.net/speedworks/index.html

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since flight sim is made by thre same company train sim 2 has to be as good

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Hi Clem !Perhaps MICROSOFT should consult Mr. Mackoy of BVE ? O t t o

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Starting to investigate the LEHIGH there is one thing I would like most of all and that is a Moving Map like TRS-2004 has got so that I can see where my Player Train is in extensive Routes like this one ! O t t o

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I Think If Msts 2 Is Going To Be A Hit They Need Good Routes.1. John Reagon's Route 2. NS Dixie Line3. UP Kansas City Route'4. BNSF California Southern & Northern Parts5. And Some Other Not American Routes.And Locomotives & Rolling Stock.1. UP's Big Boy 2. SD80MAC3. SD4024. 4-8-2 5. Some Work Trains6. Norfolk Southern Trains7. Amtrak Trains.1. 40 Ft. Boxcars2. Wood Chip Cars (Loaded & Unloaded)3. Cabooses 4. Passenger Cars5. Intermodel 6. Manifest Cars ( Early 1990's To Present.)7. N & W Big Steam Locomotive.
Jason

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Jason,none of what you suggest is more important than for MICROSOFT to produce a MSTS which will allow Developers, using the best in Graphics Tools like GMAX, to take advantage of the latest developments in Graphics, DirectX-9 and Cards from ATI and nVIDIA !They would love nothing better than that, taking the reigns off their ability to produce more STUNNING MSTS ADD-ONs !!! O t t o

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-04 AT 08:27 PM (EST)

Couple of things I'd like to see are:Moving Maps,Maybe a small arrow with a number you could turn on and off or something showing weather your moving up or down grade.Activation events that start AI trains or other services. A way to prioritize trains. That way the player train isn't always the one with the highest priority. It's not very realistic to have Amtrak waiting for your 5 car local.A better way of saving games where you could label them like on most other games.Some way for the player to override the AI dispatcher and signals. Say your switching a siding and there is a signal stopping you from getting back to your train, and Mr. Permission Denied won't let you past. You could do something to pass the red sig without the sim ending. A system where you could get "ownership of a section of track for switching purposes, This way you could have exclusive rights to a section of the RR so you could switch customers, run around your train etc. without having to use reverse points and being stopped by signals. This way you could run through reds and throw all switches manually to deliver and pick up cars without having to follow a set path or having any AI trains to worry about. You go to the map click on a section you want to "Own" and it's yours until you're done with your work. Then you release it again.Something I would really like is, night time lighting of your train. The way it is now, if you run at night you can't see anything past the first few cars. I would like the train to be visible so you could switch at night and see what your doing. Maybe a mouse click or some other way to see a few cars at a time. Say if your using view #2 or 3 and your arrowing down your train, you could hit a key combo that lights up the cars you are viewing. Most of the local switching around where I live is done at night.ALL bugs need fixing, From front coupler on down to wait points.Completely new editors especially the route editor!The ability to go into a route editor and make changes without having to remove all interactive objects. This is very important to me. Adding a new industrial siding, crossover's or a grade crossing shouldn't have to take hours to do. Better graphics engine.

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-04 AT 02:40 PM (EST)

Ok, My list:
1. I agree on trian priority assignment. This will add a lot to the realism of the simulator, and add a layer of interest.
2. Ability to make throttle response realistic without fowling up the cabview.
3. Ability to set both total weight and the weight on the drivers. This is important not only to steam, but also to designs like the A1A truck.
4. Since TA is working with MS, I presume they will enable big steam to be modeled more accurately, Chris Lee has more practical steam knowledge than I do, they should listen to his steam input.
5. Enable better curve resistance modeling
6. Provide a MUCH improved anti-slip simulation for modern diesel electric locomotives. It should model actual controled slippage as reality, complete with sound and shudder.
7. Much better model for AC traction (AC does not really rely on the same electrical info, readouts are not the same in AC cabs), and their operating ranges extended much slower than DC or the current model (which won't even accomodate some DC models).
8. Power limiting, the ability to model power limiting.
9. The ability to model transition.
10. Side sway on locomotives.
11. End of train info in cab.
12. Better modeling of distributed power and pusher action.
Others, but this will do for now.
Bob Boudoin

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- Let us shut the diesel engines down, and start them up, with at least relatively realistic procedures.... Activities using diesel engines should have the option of starting with the engines running or not.- Level crossing signal lights that actually flash, as appropriate to the signal type/country/etc.- Improve the handling/physics/etc....

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There are probably lots and lots of people who cringe at the suggestion of showing the public how to start a diesel locomotive, and no doubt for good reason too.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950

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Dave,unless there is a MSTS function like MS-FS has got, Start Engines and never mind switching on the Batteries, Magnetos, Fuel, Fuel Pump, etc, etc. first ! O t t o

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On real locomotives the engine takes a little while to warm up.

Robert

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Hi guys,I think MS has already disided what features they will include in MSTS2 and what not. To add all wanted features will cost MS to much time and money, like a full programmable dispatcher window or multplayer.One thing i hope that they will abandon is the Global\tsection.dat file, instead make this file unique with every route, so every 3party route developer can make custom tracks in his (payware) route I think it has no use to talk about the current play-bugs we have in msts1.2, because now Kuju stepped/pushed out, we probably get a allmost complete new version with new bugs.We collected all wanted features in a letter at the Christrainsforum for 1.5 years ago, Chris Longhurst then sended it to MS/Kuju, i will put this letter as a attachment to this message.Greets from Dereck

Greets from Dereck, The Netherlands; You might think i'm a newbie but I've MSTS since june 2001 and made some nice Dutch MSTS-Signals, see website at the left at "Dick's seinen" button!

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