Want MSTS 2 ?… Promote the hobby!

With all of the anticipation, uncertainty, speculation, guessing, second guessing etc about MSTS 2 there is one certainty. And that is that the people who will decide the future fate of MSTS is "us" the consumer. Here is a little interesting statistic. The number one download for Flight Sim 2002 aircraft at the sister site has had 83,677 downloads (since 12/5/01). The number one Train-sim download here has had 19,387 downloads in about the same time period. Granted there is nothing scientific about this but it might indicate that MSTS has about 1/4th the following of MSFS. So if you all really want MSTS 2...then WORK for it! Promote the hobby, stop the Microsoft bashing, stop the speculative dooms-day forecast and HELP newbees instead of complaining that their question has been asked 20 times). Every negative word about MSTS, Microsoft and Kuju, every speculation about "vapor ware" or a 2 year release date, every newbee that is sent away insulted or dejected, is a possible loss of one "would-be" MSTS fan and one less chance of getting the illusive MSTS 2 that we all crave. (No, I don't work for any software developers, wholesalers or retailers. It's just plain common sense.)(Anti-flame disclaimer - The above reflects the opinions and views of one member of the Train-Sim community.)

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RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, OTTODAD, Jan-02-04, 05:51 PM, (1) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, CajunRon, Jan-02-04, 09:35 PM, (2) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, OTTODAD, Jan-03-04, 09:00 AM, (3) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, CajunRon, Jan-05-04, 11:37 PM, (4) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, OTTODAD, Jan-06-04, 12:41 PM, (5) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, smokeyjoe, Jan-11-04, 04:46 PM, (6) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, Koziolean, Jan-11-04, 05:54 PM, (7) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, OTTODAD, Jan-11-04, 06:15 PM, (8) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, Koziolean, Jan-12-04, 03:37 AM, (9) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, OTTODAD, Jan-12-04, 10:13 AM, (10) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, Koziolean, Jan-12-04, 06:02 PM, (11) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, CajunRon, Jan-13-04, 00:06 AM, (12) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, Vern, Jan-13-04, 01:41 PM, (13) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, OTTODAD, Jan-13-04, 02:17 PM, (14) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, jtr1962, Jan-13-04, 02:45 PM, (15) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, plainsman, Jan-13-04, 03:56 PM, (16) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, buzzbenz, Jan-13-04, 04:45 PM, (17) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, OTTODAD, Jan-13-04, 05:41 PM, (18) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, jtr1962, Jan-13-04, 09:54 PM, (19) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, plainsman, Jan-14-04, 09:37 PM, (20) RE: Want MSTS 2 ?....Promote the hobby!, jtr1962, Jan-15-04, 07:47 AM, (21)

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There is no point in kidding ourselves that anything we do or say has the slightest effect on what MICROSOFT will decide as to what the future of MSTS is going to be. Neither will it affect any Newbies or others Railway Fanatics and Lovers. They just keep coming back for more punishment and similar to drugs, being hooked on Train Sims ! All we can do is stew in our own juice and let off steam of now and then to prevent frustration giving us ulcers or worse ! O t t o

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-04 AT 10:11 PM (EST)

Now Otto, what if Orville and Wilbur had had such a defeatist attitude, where would we be today....we'd still be riding trains (and that's a bad thing?)

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They did not have to rely on MICROSOFT to get their bird off the ground ! O t t o

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Actually, Microsoft DID get their bird off the ground (MSFS 2002). It just took them another 100 years! (Just a joke, no bashing intended)

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Which reminds me, Ron !Haven't tried flying the Wright Brothers bird in FS-2004 yet.Now that should be a new experience for a real pilot like myself, usually flying single engine planes and 777s if somebody were to ask "Is there a Pilot on board ? ". Take Care, O t t o.

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-04 AT 05:01 PM (EST)

I have Flightsim 2004 installed and have flown the Wright Flier with it. The flight is reproduced exactly as the brothers flew it. You can simulate each of the flights. The biggest drawback i found was that you couldn't gain altitude and fly around Kitty Hawk. Of course, neither could they. Smokeyjoe

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-04 AT 05:56 PM (EST)

We seem to be dragging the conversation away from the subject here - the original post. Which is a shame, because I think it is one of the most insightful and profound comments this forum has seen, as opposed to the usual whinging and bashing that goes on.I'm reading the original post again and again and I'm realising it's all so true. We all know that M$ is very profit orientated and in this day and age where they are virtually monopolizing the entire market - they're only in it for the big league. It is well known that MSTS has a much smaller following than MSFS (as demonstrated probably about a quarter of the size). So we should be doing all we can to increase numbers and sales, so that in turn M$ realises that the MSTS franchise has a large following and that their time and effort in developing a quality sequel will yield both alot of happy customers and alot of profit.As also mentioned before by CajunRon, this forum is becoming all to negative with the bashing and the complaining and the 'vapor-ware' rumours. M$ members WILL visit this forum to see what's going around - especially if they are in two minds about continuing the franchise. So we should be putting on our best at this time - welcoming all newcomers and encouraging them to go out and support MSTS. Every new MSTS player is one more number on that tally taking MSTS up towards Flight-Sim territory - and I know that if we can achieve even half the popularity of MSFS - then the franchise will be secured for a long time to come.Koz(P.S - hats off to CajunRon once again for the most intelligent comment we've seen)(P.P.S - Edited for grammar)

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Koz,we all would demonstrate how popular MSTS is by buying a copy of the next version ! The one thing stopping us doing so is that there are none and barely any old versions either.There are guys trying to buy MSTS-1 and have a job finding retailers and Online suppliers still stocking it. A bit difficult increasing sales of MSTS if there are none to be had ! The "NEGATIVITY" about the future of MSTS is created by MICROSOFT themselves, not letting their MSTS customers old and prospective know what they are planning to do ! Difficult to hide that fact from parties interested in buying it ! O t t o

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Yes I agree - buying MSTS 2 would be the ultimate sign of support - but until then we have to contribute what we can to get it happening. I agree M$ is being difficult - but it is also our job - as the people they are doing this for - to make it worth their while.Koz

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I would gladly pay them more than twice as much as it is worth if I could only lay my hand on a copy of MSTS-2 !!! Any on the "Black Market" anywhere, Malaysia, China ? O t t o

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>Any on the "Black Market" anywhere, Malaysia, China ? Meet me @ base of Centrepoint @ 22:41 on 18/1/04..................

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>There are guys trying to buy MSTS-1 and have a job finding
>retailers and Online suppliers still stocking it. If this is the situation, I'm fairly certain it's because the retailers aren't restocking. And the retailer's aren't restocking because the software isn't selling well. So again, it comes down to one thing as I "opined" in my original post...the consumer. This is just more proof that success of MSTS is on the retail level and rests with "us" the consumer. We need to support the hobby and the software producers and encourage and help newcomers. The people trying to buy MSTS=1 need to make a ruckus and demonstrate astonishment that the retailer isn't carrying it. If enough people demand it, believe me the retailers will begin stocking it.But as Pogo once said..."We have met the enemy and they are us." I'm afraid that just might be true. (For those too young to remember, Pogo was a political satire comic strip cartoon of years ago)

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Like many MTS users I am promoting the hobby both through my web site (which covers more than just MTS) and an ongoing programme of route building. So long as there is demand, I will continue to do my bit and I'm sure there's always going to be a hardcore of support from those of us who already have the programme. Expanding that user base for what is, essentially, a three year old programme though is a tad more tricky. Three years is a relatively long lifespan for a software product and, along with MS attending to the production and distribution, potential users will need to be convinced it isn't old hat. Of course it is only now that some of the commercial add ons (and some freeware too) are starting to show what can really be done with the programme and I feel the frustration of those who want to get into MTS to enjoy some of this new content but can't obtain the original programme to run it.However there are some practical issues, particularly when it comes to starting major projects. The main one is that of time - in the six months or maybe even more it might take to complete a major route project, i.e. late summer 2004, how much demand is going to exist? Maybe this is more an issue for the commercial guys than freeware developers like myself, but no one wants to spend weeks slogging away at the RE to just do 150 - 200 copies of the route. Then the other concern, assuming MTS2 does happen, is compatability. While there will undoubtedly be some residual demand for MTS1 stuff post MTS2, most people are going to upgrade. Not much point in slogging away on that 200 mile masterpiece if it won't work in MTS2 and you finish it 4 weeks before MTS2 is released.At the end of the day, if MS are serious about continuing the TS franchise the solution is in their hands - to confirm exactly what is happening, if it is - then will our route etc. content work (so we can pursue those major projects without concerns over wasted time) and in the meantime get a re-press of the original version out to the retailers to keep things ticking over.

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6 of my friends I made aware of MSTS during the past 6 months have purchased it, including one of the major U.K. Märklin Importers / Distributors, who is now worried about his future Sales of Model Railways ! Not to mention all the Computing Magazines I have pestered in the past asking them to feature more articles about it, some actually obliging, including getting in touch with Microsoft to find out what the latest is regarding MSTS-2 ! Can't do better than that ! As I said before, Letters, not E-Mail, personally addressed to the top Executives of MICROSOFT could convey the message ! That's what I usually do, go to the Horse's Mouth, Steve Ballmer, that is ! O t t o

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While I agree promoting the hobby is a good thing, there is one very good reason why MSFS has a greater following than MSTS. Most people have been on airplanes at least once or twice in their lives, and frequently more. On the other hand, a large percentage of people in the US have never been on either a passenger train, or even mass transit. The best way to promote our hobby is to encourage people to take trains. If they don't get interested, perhaps their children will. I can thank the NYC subway for my interest in trains as they are something I regularly use. As for planes, I've been on a plane exactly once in my life, and since 9/11 I'm boycotting the airlines forever, so you can imagine which mode of transport I can relate to more. On a related note, since cars are another popular mode of transport, car games are also more popular than train games. It's all about what you see and use on a daily basis. I would imagine in Europe and Japan train simulators are way more popular than car or plane simulators.Want to encourage the hobby still more? Get Congress to authorize the construction of a national high speed system coupled with connecting local systems. Get a $5 to $10 gasoline tax passed to discourage driving and fund public transit. These are all good things whose benefit extends far beyond promoting our hobby anyway. Less auto and plane usage in the US would inarguably be a good thing.

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-04 AT 03:58 PM (EST)

Hi Joe,
Not to argue but just a different point of view. I think the discussion of ridership misses two key elements which MSTS should have going for it.
First, many of us enjoy trains as a hobby from our model railroad experiences. I still have my first Lionel from more than 50 years ago, and a little HO stuff still hanging around, although the simulator has really replaced that as a much more desirable alternative. Not only can the operations be more realistic than any reasonable HO layout, but the variety would cost a literal fortune to purchase in HO and it is either free or comparatively inexpensive for the sim.
Second, for those of us out West, the real romance of the railroad likely started as freights when we were kids. Although I do take the train on some trips, the real excitement is still being able to get up close to a 17,000 ton coal freight and feel the ground shake as a pair of AC units move it down the track. I still have fond memories of the 4 unit diesels working a long reefer freight at 70 mph in the 50s and 60s. I still get a little of the same feeling when 3 C60ACs blow past at 75+ with a 30 car set of pigs.
Also, I can now revive those Alcos and Dash 7s and U50s and the MILW and T&P.
Still lots of reasons to have a popular simulator in my opinion. The biggest obstacle is still the shoddy testing and implementation of the V1 of the sim. When folks try it and can't complete the default activities because of program glitches, they tend to loose interest instead of taking the time to acquire all the repairs and modifications many of us have added to fix those problems.
Bob

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I'll agree with Bob on the Ridership thing - my 19-month old has never been on a train, yet he knows them well, and "choo-choo" is one of the few things he can say My daughter was the same way (of course, now she has been on several train trips ). Just like how i also am a big buff of Titanic history, yet i obviously never rode on it The love of railroading has to involve more than just a ride on the train - maybe the earth shuddering as that coal drag runs by, or the lovely tones of a K5LA in the distance at night, or maybe something else... Heck, being the 3rd generation of train nuts, my kids may even prove it's something genetic! HeheThat aside, I for one am not too concerned about MS releasing the sequel. I believe they will. I believe that the sales of MSTS1 were strong enough to warrant it, and i believe that MS has already invested too much in the sequel not to go through with it. FS IS more popular than TS, true - but FS has 20-years worth of evolution behind it. Virtual railroading has really only been alive less than 3 years now. In time, as more and more people learn about it and it evolves, i believe TS will be equal in sales to FS. As a space-free alternative, i for one think that many who never had the room for a good layout will return to the railroad hobby in the form of MSTS.In the meantime, i will continue to promote the hobby the same way i have since the release - making more stuff for it. I also am not even going to figure MSTS2 into the equation there, i'll keep going just as if there is no sequel. If it comes out a mere week after i finish some big project for MSTS1, then so be it. Hopefully others feel the same way too ------ BUZZ

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Same with my Grandchildren. Hardly ever seen trains before other than the occasional distant 100+ freight cars Union Pacific in Utah.But this was their reaction when they saw my Märklin Gauge-HO and 1 layouts. The Gauge-1 layout got shipped to them the year after and they were fighting over who could use it ever since ! Planes and flying are a normal occurrence, creating not much interest nor excitement.Kids that age and older are more likely to be interested in MSTS than MSFS and would not worry too much about Activities and proper Railroading practises. They just want to play with trains.Having said that, got them FS-2002 and CFS-3 Christmas 2002 and they have been flying planes like pros from the start. Mind you, having a Granddad who happens to be a real pilot helps ! O.K. there are other Train Games you might say, but that is liking shutting the door on anybody who is not following your standards of how to use MSTS ! It is with kids and their dads and mums where the true scope of massive sales of MSTS lie. Our lot is difficult to please, costly to satisfy and Sales limited to 10s of thousands, judging by the number of members in this Forum and others.Whenever I make practical suggestions of what should be included in the next version of MSTS I usually think of majority users and what would appeal to them as well as me rather than the hardcore Train Simmers ! In fact there should be two version of MSTS, one for average users and another for "Professionals! ! Whatever, lets keep on to MICROSOFT in what ever way possible and sooner or later there should be a response !!! O t t o

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I agree with you, Bob. Seeing trains can have as profound an effect on interest as actually riding on them. I'm just wondering how many Americans stuck at grade crossings actually bother to really look at the trains passing by. That's why I said that if we could get more people to actually ride trains, there would be more interest in both model and virtual railroading.Interesting how you mentioned freights sparking an interest in railroading for many out West. I tend to think that what you like most in railroading is what you see (or saw) every day. Here in the Northeast I would think we would have a greater proportion of railroaders interested in passenger as that's mostly what you tend to see here. I never even saw a freight train in action until I started riding the NEC in college, so my interests tended towards what I saw and used every day-passenger. They still do, although if not for the limitations of MSTS, especially the stupid coupler bug, I might actually run more freight than I do. I never did have the opportunity to see really long freights blow by at speed the way you did. I'm certain I might have more interest in freight if I did. Then again, I guess you never saw an AEM-7 with 5 or 6 Amfleets in tow fly by at 125-130 mph on a snow-covered track, stirring up a blizzard and "relocating" every loose paper within 50 feet. That has to be one of the most awesome sights in railroading.The limitations of MSTS are no worse than those of model railroading, I suppose. I think of MSTS1 the way I might think of a relatively inexpensive, mass-produced HO trainset. Sure, it won't run as smoothly as a remotored train, not will it look as nice as a super-detailed one, but it's good enough to at least get people interested in railroading as a hobby, and with a little work it can be made much better. Hopefully, MSTS2 out of the box will be the equivalent of a super-detailed trainset with a first-class mechanism.

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Hi Joe,
I included a couple of shots I took of the UP triple which is only 2-3 miles from my house. Almost 150 of these a day.
I do have to admit, I got to ride the PRR from Baltimore to DC behind a pair of GG1s, and that was quite a thrill for a 7 year old. But then you may have missed getting to ride in the cab of an old 8 driver steamer as it switched freight. I also got to ride the Doodlebugs. I got to see the first GP7 come through replacing that steamer. I still remember that as a little frightening, kind of a lose of innocence, I must ahve been 4 or 5 at the time. Got that cabride when I was 4, no lawsuits in those days.
Bob

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Thanks for the pics Bob. If you can see 150 of these a day then you're blessed as far as living in a great place for railfanning. Those trains must be awesome in person as they roll by and you feel the ground shaking along with the air turbulence. I've noticed from the relatively few freights I've seen that they seem to be going a lot faster than they really are. A freight going by at 50 mph seems like it's really flying. I can only imagine the effects at 70+ mph. I've never ridden behind a GG-1 as you did, but I did see some on the NEC when I used to ride regularly to college in the early 1980s. And I've personally ridden behind AEM-7s, ALP-44s, and E60s. In fact, I remember being on a train once when the AEM-7 broke down (it appeared to be pantograph contact problems), and we were rescued by an E60. And then there was another time riding on an Amfleet that either had a bad bearing or a flat spot. Anyway, it made for an interesting trip in that it sounded like a muffled jackhammer as we were doing 110 mph through northern New Jersey on the way to Penn Station in NYC. Lots of memories from my years riding the rails.I haven't been lucky enough to get cab rides as you did, but then unfortunately I didn't ride regularly until we were well into the era of lawsuits. I did look inside the Arrow cabs quite a bit and watch the engineer, although that doesn't count as a cab ride.

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