MSTS Penalties Annoyance

(I've become paranoid about being flamed whenever I post on any forum but here goes)One of the biggest annoyances I have with MSTS 1 are the penalties for doing something wrong, like running a red signal by even a knuckle or on occasion failing to blow your horn at a signal. Your whole run is shutdown (even if you've been at it for an hour) and you're force to start all over. Yet I haven't seen anyone mentioning a fix to this on their MSTS 2 wishlist. Does anyone else find this annoying as I do? It is my one of my BIGGEST wishes for MSTS 2.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Motley24Crue2, Jun-03-03, 08:56 PM, (1) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., CajunRon, Jun-03-03, 10:34 PM, (3) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heffed, Jun-03-03, 10:57 PM, (4) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., dicedealer11, Jun-06-03, 05:00 PM, (20) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heffed, Jun-03-03, 09:49 PM, (2) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Wurger, Jun-05-03, 01:08 PM, (11) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Ty_train11, Jun-07-03, 11:17 PM, (25) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., IcyFire, Jun-04-03, 00:38 AM, (5) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., robertlearmont, Jun-05-03, 08:06 PM, (13) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heffed, Jun-06-03, 10:36 AM, (17) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Woozley, Jun-04-03, 06:30 AM, (6) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heffed, Jun-04-03, 05:29 PM, (7) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., CajunRon, Jun-04-03, 07:14 PM, (8) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heffed, Jun-05-03, 00:29 AM, (9) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Swissie, Jun-06-03, 09:45 AM, (16) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., brucek, Jun-16-03, 03:39 AM, (32) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Woozley, Jun-05-03, 07:55 PM, (12) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heffed, Jun-05-03, 10:29 PM, (15) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., dispatcher618, Jun-15-03, 11:32 AM, (30) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Brando, Jun-05-03, 11:05 AM, (10) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., CajunRon, Jun-05-03, 08:24 PM, (14) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Matt Vince, Jun-06-03, 01:47 PM, (18) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., wrr20891, Jun-06-03, 03:28 PM, (19) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., Matt Vince, Jun-07-03, 08:46 PM, (24) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., MarkMyers, Jun-07-03, 02:02 PM, (21) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., OTTODAD, Jun-07-03, 07:37 PM, (22) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., MarkMyers, Jun-07-03, 08:08 PM, (23) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., sniper297, Jun-08-03, 01:16 AM, (26) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., OTTODAD, Jun-08-03, 07:40 AM, (27) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., dispatcher618, Jun-20-03, 11:25 PM, (39) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., CajunRon, Jun-08-03, 10:09 AM, (28) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., JonRoma, Jun-11-03, 01:14 AM, (29) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., brucek, Jun-16-03, 03:34 AM, (31) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., wpfan, Jun-17-03, 11:07 PM, (33) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., wrr20891, Jun-17-03, 11:12 PM, (34) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heavymetal91, Jun-19-03, 06:30 PM, (35) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., JonRoma, Jun-20-03, 02:28 AM, (36) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., heavymetal91, Jun-20-03, 06:11 PM, (37) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., JonRoma, Jun-20-03, 06:49 PM, (38) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., rdawes, Jun-26-03, 12:02 PM, (40) RE: MSTS Penalties Annoyance., flarrfan, Jun-27-03, 07:31 AM, (41)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-03 AT 08:58 PM (EDT)

well actually there is a pretty easy fix for this "Problem" Simple stop running Reds and Blow when you see the "W" Sign for grade crossings and the sim will not close!i know every railroad i have seen or been around Every train Blows at crossings "Even though the gates are down" They still blow and as for Running Red lights well they do not do that around here "Unless you want to see the 6oclock news about a Derailment!" oh say an Acela plowing the local fright through Holmesburg Jct. on the NECoh and for penalties.... lets just say you might not have a job if this where "Real"Robert Steskal
Philadelphia, Pa

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-03 AT 10:42 PM (EDT)

Do you know of any REAL train that is teleported or even driven back to the beginning of the run to start all over again because the engineer ran a red signal or forgot to blow his whistle. Fire the crap out of me, give me a pink slip, defame my name in the newspaper, demote me to cleaning bathrooms but don't teleport the whole darn train back to the beginning! Let me become the replacement engineer who will do a better job.I don't promote not having penalties. Just make them truely realistic. If you want REALISM, build a promotion/demotion, reward/demerit, pay raise/pay cut system into the sim. Not this rediculous teleport to the beginning penalty.And as always, set it up as an option for those who like the Star Trek teleporting penalty.The reason some of us run reds or forget to blow the whistle is because some of us enjoy "out of cab" experiences and while awing at the sight of the BigBoy churning up Marias pass we just might not remember to blow the whistle. And while admiring the sights and sounds of a yard switching operation from the brakemans point of view we just might not stop exactly, precisely within the "bounding box" limits of the red signal. There's other ways to enjoying this sim besides strict "by-the rules-and-only-by-the rules" operation.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Do you know of any REAL train that is teleported or even
>driven back to the beginning of the run to start all over
>again because the engineer ran a red signal or forgot to
>blow his whistle. Again... Save often. The only reason to start back at the beginning is if you don't save. >The reason some of us run reds or forget to blow the whistle
>is because some of us enjoy "out of cab" experiences and
>while awing at the sight of the BigBoy churning up Marias
>pass we just might not remember to blow the whistle. I rarely drive from the cab.If you want to sightsee, why not run "explore route" instead of running activities??? No red lights or anything to bother you. Just run and gawk all you want. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

There are exceptions to the whistle at crossings. One I know of is the ex-CB&Q mainline from Chicago to Aurora. Sounding of the whistle on this line is prohibited, except in certain situations specified in the special instructions for the subdivision and emergency situations.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hmm... Well, you can save more often.As for the penalties, without penalties, what fun would it be? Aren't you trying to accomplish something here? After all, MSTS is billed as a train simulator. Simulator meaning, simulates the real thing.Just a thought.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

MSTS may be billed as a "simulator" but really, it's just a game. No matter how real we would like it to be, it will never come close to the real thing. With that in mind, penalties/rule violations should just be listed in the evaluation and not end the activity IMHO.

I'd just be happy if they modeled the damm brake pipe correctely, have couplers break when they're supposed to, and had a proper EOT device. Wurger

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Hmm... Well, you can save more often.
>
>As for the penalties, without penalties, what fun would it
>be? Aren't you trying to accomplish something here?
>
>After all, MSTS is billed as a train simulator.
>Simulator meaning, simulates the real thing.
>
>Just a thought.
Well you don't have to start all the way at the begining of your run in real life!

Ty, future Union Pacific engineer(I'm only 11 )
My dad's
e-mail: dalejane@netzero.net
good train sites: espee.railfan.net/spgp38-2 www.drydentidbits.com/montana/guide/ http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/cars/cebx800/cebx800.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Run a red, or fail to blow the horn, and you could be leaving your locomotive in a ambulance, In real life. For what it's worth, i'd rather be teleported to the load a saved game menu any day

Shawn Kenselaar, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Screen Shot Forum Mod; Repainter for TKW & YLW
The NYO&W is Gone, But never forgotten!!!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-03 AT 08:17 PM (EDT)

I'm with you, IcyFire!

Robert Learmont
Future and Current BNSF Engineer (I'm only 12 years old but drove some real BNSF locomotives and plan to work for a railroad when I grow up.)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hey Robert, enough with the large colored text already! -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I'm with you on this one CajunRon. For signals the penalty for passing a red should be like the real world - eg. if another train is around then you could collide head on or catch up to a preceeding one, but if the line is clear / no catch points then nothing physically would happen just like in real life. You could then back up / report to the dispatcher / get directions and at worst get a 'pink slip' or something for your error. Your debrief at the end of the activity could include signal etc voilations in a similar vein to the current assessment of freight durability exceedances. The fun / challenge comes with a clean slate at the end of the activity.Repeatedly saving an activity to cover against an accidental red signal violation and subsequent activity restart is not exactly realistic ... I wish I could save my life once in a while and reload if a judgement error occured

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>You could then back up
>/ report to the dispatcher / get directions and at worst get
>a 'pink slip' or something for your error. And be forced to take unpaid leave for a month or more until your disciplinary hearing. Then a probationary period or demotion if found negligent.Yes, lets make the game be more like real life. You run a red, then can't play the sim for a few weeks. Then you might only be able run it with restrictions. That sounds fun! -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-03 AT 07:44 PM (EDT)

I'm not asking those who like the teleporting idea to give it up. All I'm asking for is an option switch to turn if off to make the sim much more realistic (i.e simulate bringing in a replacement engineer to the location of the train where the infraction occurred...that's what would happen in REAL life). (Flight Simulator doesn't stop and teleport me back at my departure airport if I fail to use a procedural approach on landing.)I don't want to only run in Explorer, for one there's no other interacting traffic to gawk at. I don't think about saving often and it's still not realistic to teleport back to some random point. Since I don't completely isolate myself from my family while "playing like I'm an engineer" I have all types of disruptions that a real engineer doesn't encounter, so yes I will still run reds and forget to the blow the whistle. So why not just put an option switch in MSTS 2 and make both sides happy? That's all I would like to see.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>I don't want to only run in Explorer, for one there's no
>other interacting traffic to gawk at. I don't think about
>saving often and it's still not realistic to teleport back
>to some random point. Since I don't completely isolate
>myself from my family while "playing like I'm an engineer" I
>have all types of disruptions that a real engineer doesn't
>encounter, so yes I will still run reds and forget to the
>blow the whistle. If you don't like saving, pressing F11 effectively pauses the game. When real life intrudes, press F11. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi CajunRon,I'm perfectly with your point: No where in the world is a train blown of the rails when running a red light, but there are other, severe consequences.What would sound right for me is that running a red would immediately set off the alerter and slam your train into a full blown emergency stop at the same instant. In an advanced programming, also the AI train would get a red at the same instant. You'd then get instructions from dispatch on how to sort things out, or even better, had to change into the role of the dispatcher resetting the situation.Needless to say that your evalutation sheet would look pretty bad...With many RR's, red lights tend to have a built-in safety margin so that running over them should not instantly lead to a crash. It could either be that the red light is far enough away from the switch / section of track it protects that a train who runs over the red at the signposted speed is stopped ahead of the critical point by the emergency braking triggered by the signal. In railroad terms of my country, this safety distance is actually called - loosly translated - a "slippage margin" (Durchrutsch-Strecke for those familiar with German). If there is geographically not enough room for such a safety distance, then RR operations manuals require that the block past the erd signal must be kept clear until the train approaching the red has stopped at the red signal. In practice, this would mean that when two opposing trains approach the siding on a single track main where they are scheduled to pass each other, only one of them will get an "advance" indication light when he approaches the siding, while the train coming the other way will have an absolute stop at the signal protecting the entry of the siding. Once the first train has come to a halt in the siding, the second trains signal to enter the (other track of) the siding will turn to green. In such as set-up, the track inbetween the red light at the exit of the siding for the first and the red light at the entry to the siding for the second train serves as safety area.Now why would these be necessary, as some of the other guys here have stated that the only right thing to do is not to pass any red signal? Well- the brakes of the train might malfunction, which the engineer only detects when trying to apply them approaching the red- the rails might be slippery by rain / fallen leaves / oil patches etc, which the engineer only detects when trying to apply the brakes approaching the red.- the engineer might pass out just when it is about time to hit the brakes, and the alerter would catch this only some 30 secs later...- the engineer might make that most dreaded mistake an engineer could make in his career (although an alerter goes off by default when the train passes the yellow approaching signal of a red light.You think this is rarely happening? Think again... About two weeks ago, the Swiss Federal Railroads published their safety records for 2002. The RR operates on 2000 mi of track, with some 5000+ trains running a day. In 2002, there where 704 cases of running a red light. They all get registered thanks to the automated block system. No accident resulted from this cases, thanks to the built in safety margin - luckily. Most seem to have occurred when a waiting train started to move into a still red signal after a regular stop.It makes me think, and it makes the management and the unions think. Every engine cab therefore sports a large sticker that reminds the engineer to- check signal
- check train state
- check doors and plattform for pax trying to board late
- check signalbefore notching up.Lukas a.k.a Swissie

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>What would sound right for me is that running a red would
>immediately set off the alerter and slam your train into a
>full blown emergency stop at the same instant.That is exactly what occurs in Train Master and BVE and it is certainly effective.Bruce.

AustRail

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Yes, lets make the game be more like real life. You run a
>red, then can't play the sim for a few weeks. It real now ! Nothing stops you from not starting the SIM for a month or demoting yourself if you run a red. I bet you couldn't do that.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>It real now ! Nothing stops you from not starting the SIM
>for a month or demoting yourself if you run a red. I bet you
>couldn't do that. Maybe not, but I don't run reds. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hee hee, they could make it where you could only play "Whitefish Yard Switching" for a couple of months, then maybe allow a few activities on the Kalispell branch for another month or so, before allowing you back into signaled territory. What I don't like is how kicking the brakes into emergency counts as a penalty on your evaluation. Why should you be penalized for trying to avoid a disaster?

- DISPATCHER 618

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I agree with CajunRon, the penalties that occur when you make an infraction aren't very imaginatively implemented.CajunRon gave the examples of running a red, not blowing for crossings, but there could be far more - not reducing speeds at yellows or for switches, etc etc.As for penalties, some imaginative penalties when running a red could be:1) Supervisor hiding in the bushes spots it, calls to have you stop the train and replaces you2) DS sees you ran the red, and asks over radio what you're doing.3) worst case is of course a collision. Broken coupler - train goes into emergency, both halves, and hopefully stops, depending on speed and grades time wait while conductor replaces coupler and train air is pumped back up. We can dream.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-03 AT 08:29 PM (EDT)

Let's see, if we carry this mentality to other games:NASCAR - "You idiot, do you know you just exceeded the pit row speed limit. Do you realize you could have run over a pit crew member. How horrible of a gamer are you to reak such carnage. Just for that you have to start your 150 lap race all over again. I don't care that in a real race you would just get black flagged and would have to pit again after your next lap. In this game, we take those type things alot more seriously than in real life."FLIGHT SIMULATOR - "You forgot to get clearance before landing. Don't you know what can happen on the runway. A terrible pixel against pixel collision, with imaginary, unseen bodies all over the place. You horrible person...go back to your departure airport and start all over and get it right this time or you'll have to do fly those 1000 miles again."FALCON 4 - "You just shot a FRIENDLY, you traitor. I don't care that in real life things like that happen and you just have to move on. In this game we make you START THE WAR OVER! You say you were about to win after three weeks of playing the campaign...tuff bazookas."Hmmm, yes, I can see the fun in it. (Okay, I quit...I'm starting to take this way to seriously)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I have to agree with the original post, the 'you messed up, go back and start again' message is pointless. If you pass a red, you stop, call the dispatcher, then get permission to proceed. This needs to be included in MSTS2.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

While we are on the signal kick, I hope they also fix the errors with approach signals, etc.You're running on a green signal and then reach an approach. Real world you reduce to the required speed as soon as practical with good train handling. MSTS has you overspeed the second you pass the signal. On some activities that are made with speed restrictions enforced, you kill the activity right then and there.
David

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

That should be simple - they just haven't bothered to sort out the ASAP flag. UK signalling is easier, you get a yellow, all it says is, next signal is red, it may be 'advisable' to start slowing. I didn't get the default NEC's signals, you're happily speeding along at 125, and then you get a 45 limit. ARGH!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-03 AT 02:03 PM (EDT)

For all the discussion here, I have only seen one mention of the switch that stops the things that you are grumbling about. Explore mode. So play exlore mode and then you don't have to worry about red lights and level crossings. You don't see it on anyones "wish list" of fixes because 1) It's not broken. 2) Most "gamers" understand the limitations of coding vs performance. Now to the meat of my opinion...Red Lights. Running Red lights should be allowed. With the same penalty as in real life. Either a Collision or a Virtual Pink Slip. Just a you're fired message at the end of the run or in the case of a collision, a you either died, or have been severely injured message at the end of the run on the performance report. This would mean fixing a peeve of mine with MSTS, that AI trains ignore speed limits, which would also mean setting a timetable for AI trains so that meets could be planned well. A hassle in the activity editor that I would put up with.Whistle "Stops": That one -is- silly. A warning would suffice, maybe a stop penalty that throws you off schedule. Rather like the overspeed penalty on passenger runs. The autos stop for the reds on the roads without fail. Unless they have no crossing. Since for the sake of frame rates, (you would bitch about jerky animation wouldn't you?) Automobiles have no bounding boxes, you just pass through them anyway. Not very realistic, but, concessions have to be made to let those that do not have SuperDuper Liquid Nitrogen Cooled PC's with HyperDiaperOverRoverOverDrive Video Cards and ram space as big as Baltimore use the sim and get satisfactory performance from it.I know that I am getting a little verbose with this, but the bottom line is this: My hope is that they make the play with more with more realistic, with a code that is streamlined to assist in upping frame rates, and a less buggy editor. And information on how to get Mike Vones Guide to Route Building. That is worth it's weight in Platinum. A much better tome than MS-Techwriters could ever do on their own. And try to remember...the "Game" is intended to be a Simulation. Not truly a game. BTW....if you drive your car the way you want to drive your trains, remind me not to move to your neighborhood.<edited for spotted late spelling error>

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I agree with what you said, Mark, except perhaps the "EXPLORE" Mode suggestion. It's my favourite because of the FREEDOM it gives you, but then you can't have AI traffic doing that. I would like ALL to be combined the same as TZ does.This was on my Wish List to KUJU as was the suggestion to have Random Trains Spawners the same as FS2002 has moving Planes on the ground and flying Traffic in the air.I have been grumbling about the "You passed a red Signal" and "Failed to blow Whistle" nonsense many a times for the same reasons outlined by SWISSIE. It just does not happen on Real Railroading that your train is taken off the rails because you failed to pay attention.Lets have a "Scoring" System, the same as many other Sims and Games ! Intermittent "Saving" of the Activity is really "Cheating", defeating the object of the exercise as it stands at the moment !And if the Swiss Railways Driver pass Red Signals, having a good reputation for running their trains, mostly on time too, you want to read the reports of what goes on with British Railways ! Makes your hairs stand on end !O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-03 AT 08:10 PM (EDT)

I never thought of a traffic spawner. What a truly great idea! I am truly blown away by that thought. Setting switches would be easy with the spawner path, but if that path can be made general (for lack of a better word) and the AI dispatcher the true intelligence to control switches and signals based on the player train...the activites that can be created could have unprecedented complexity. I think that this topic deserves it's own thread to kick around. If enough of us "suggested" to KUJU and MS, and I know that they must lurk here as well as elsewhere, would we put up with a delay in the release of MSTS II if they think it's a good idea too? Being a Driving Sim person (Porsche, NASCAR etc; I pilot like a brick flies)I didn't know about the random plane traffic in the flight sim. Don't hold that against me. Food for thought....

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-03 AT 01:33 AM (EDT)

MSTS 1.25, anyone?
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=11521&forum=DCForumID3
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/18386.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Yes Mark, we will eventually get what the Majority of Train Simmers are asking for. Yes, M$-KUJU are monitoring the Forums, so they say !It will come in stages and bits and pieces, giving M$-KUJU good reasons for other UPDATES and incoming Revenue Cash Flow, MSTS-3, 4, 5 .... ! Just would not do to get it all at once. The excitement might give us older folks heart attacks ! O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

There is one thing that I haven't seen mentioned, and this was an experiment I tried once to see what would happen:Try going into the activity editor for any given activity, and set the expected player performance to 0%. Save, then try your activity. I did this on a Marias Pass activity, and flew through the red light at Conkelly where the double track goes down to single track. Man, you should have seen the head on collision on that one... It seems the AI trains, if given enough distance, will figure out you've crossed into their block and try to stop as soon as possible.

- DISPATCHER 618

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-03 AT 10:11 AM (EDT)

Good discussions and I've learned some things in reading the different post. And it was all done without name calling or personal attacks, though there were a few bits of sarcasm sprinkled here and there. Since there does seem to be differing opinions about what type of penalty system should be used for rules infractions like running the red, I created my first ever poll for those interested. (For those not interested in polls, please just ignore it.)Perhaps Kuju will look at the poll results and take note of where peoples preferences are on this issue...but then perhaps not, in which case, in the big scheme of life, it's no big deal either.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

My comments on the preceding discussion, for what [little] they're worth.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Doesn't worry me - or a lot of others, by the lack of concern - because of the "save" function.And before anyone says "but that's not realistic", remember, this is a game.There's a whole host of things that I'd like to see incorporated in MTSv2 but this isn't anywhere on my list.Bruce.

AustRail

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

One instance of this that truly pissed me off was when I was running an activity on Sandpatch as a helper. The activity ended because I failed to blow my horn for a crossing. The only problem is it is hard to see when the front is nearing a crossing when you are tied onto the rear of a coal train and prefer to operate the train without using the "2" view. Signalling was a little easier through the use of the track monitor but the only soloution I could see to the horn issue was to constantly be blowing my horn.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I don't blame you for being "hacked". Totally unprototypical.
David

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Personally I agree I find it very annoying especially when I can still see the signal from the cab, and I don't think it's going to be the end of your engineer career if you go a coupler length past a red signal. The company may not be too happy about it, and may even yell at you, but as long as there is no damage done. In my opinion none of us really know what the rules and regulations are, unless you have worked for a railroad,are currently working for a railroad, or are in a postion to access such information. As someone stated in this thread it is a Simulator, but it is also a game. I seriously doubt that when someone applies for a train service job and puts playing train sim 1 as a qualification the company is going to take seriously.
There are just to many variables that they haven't put into this game yet to make it even close to being real. One is engineer fatigue,on Al Krugs website there is a section on where he talks about operating a locomotive for hours and you can see a signal in the distance and it appears green, but you get a little closer and it turns out to be yellow or red. I suggest that some of you who haven't read the articles on there do so, he is an engineer for BNSF, and there is a lot of good information on his website http://www.vcn.com/";alkrug/home.html Another variable to consider is wind resistance, no matter how small a part it plays it is still there
think of it in terms as in driving a car down an interstate the stonger the wind resistance is the more fuel you use, opposite for going with the wind the less fuel you use because the wind is pushing you along. When slowing down to stop wind resistance will make the car slow down more rapidly and going with the will make the car slow down more slowly.Well thats a lot more than 2 cents lol
Joel

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Personally I agree I find it very annoying especially when I
>can still see the signal from the cab, and I don't think
>it's going to be the end of your engineer career if you go a
>coupler length past a red signal. The company may not be too
>happy about it, and may even yell at you, but as long as
>there is no damage done. In my opinion none of us really
>know what the rules and regulations are, unless you have
>worked for a railroad,are currently working for a railroad,
>or are in a postion to access such information. As someone
>stated in this thread it is a Simulator, but it is also a
>game. I seriously doubt that when someone applies for a
>train service job and puts playing train sim 1 as a
>qualification the company is going to take seriously.
For the last dozen years, passing an absolute stop signal without authority is not just a railroad rule violation in the United States and it's no longer a matter between man and his employer. This infraction is now a violation of federal regulations and can lead to the suspension or revocation of the engineer's federal locomotive certification, making the engineer ineligible to operate a locomotive.Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations provides thatSec. 240.305 Prohibited conduct.After December 31, 1991,(a) It shall be unlawful to:(1) Operate a locomotive or train past a signal indication, excluding a hand or a radio signal indication or a switch, that requires a complete stop before passing it; or(2) Operate a locomotive or train at a speed which exceeds the maximum authorized limit by at least 10 miles per hour. Where restricted speed is in effect, only those violations of the conditional clause of restricted speed rules (i.e., the clause that requires stopping within one half of the locomotive engineer's range of vision), or the operational equivalent thereof, which cause reportable accidents or incidents under part 225 of this chapter, shall be considered instances of failure to adhere to this section; or(3) Operate a locomotive or train without adhering to procedures for the safe use of train or engine brakes when the procedures are required for compliance with the initial terminal, intermediate terminal, or transfer train and yard test provisions of 49 CFR part 232 or when the procedures are required for compliance with the class 1, class 1A, class II, or running brake test provisions of 49 CFR part 238;(4) Fail to comply with any mandatory directive concerning the movement of a locomotive or train by occupying main track or a segment of main track without proper authority or permission;(5) Fail to comply with prohibitions against tampering with locomotive mounted safety devices, or knowingly operate or permit to be operated a train with an unauthorized disabled safety device in the controlling locomotive. (See 49 CFR part 218, subpart D, and appendix C to part 218);[ ... snip ... ]Those who want to read the Federal regulations in detail can read the list of violations and the regulations regarding revokation of certification. In the real world, passing an absolute stop signal is now a more serious infraction with more serious consequences than ever.I agree with your comments that MSTS experience would be next to worthless as a metric toward someone's capabilities as a locomotive engineer in the real world. We simulator devotees have it easy; even if a derailment or a signal infraction ends our MSTS session, we're free of the inherent dangers of railroading and free of the fear of a career-ending mistake.There was a typo in the URL of Al Krug's excellent Web site. It should be http://www.vcn.com/~alkrug/home.htmlHappy railroading.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Thank you for correcting me i forgot that there are federal rules regarding this i should have remebered that the government has it's hand in just about everything, if not everything. They changed the rules in the trucking industry too (oops did i say trucking? I meant alternate transport. This is a Train Simulator forum after all pardon my mistake PLEASE!!) LOL
Joel

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Thank you for correcting me i forgot that there are federal
>rules regarding this i should have remebered that the
>government has it's hand in just about everything, if not
>everything. They changed the rules in the trucking industry
>too (oops did i say trucking? I meant alternate transport.
>This is a Train Simulator forum after all pardon my mistake
>PLEASE!!) LOL As is often the case, government regulation is introduced following a catastrophe where it's evident that private industry didn't do a sufficient job of self-regulation.In the case of federal locomotive engineer certification, these regulations were the result of a terrible high-speed collision between some light freight engines and an Amtrak passenger train on the Northeast Corridor on January 4, 1987. Details of this accident (in which 16 people died and 174 were injured) are on the Trains.com Web site: The wreck that changed modern railroading. The legislation and regulation following this wreck led to mandatory drug and alcohol testing for numerous classes employees working in the transportation industry, as well as the railroad locomotive engineer certification mentioned earlier. Ironically, though a train's conductor is nominally in charge of the train, the federal certification regulations do not affect his craft and only apply to engineers.I suspect the regulations affecting the trucking industry were a similar response by the federal government to either a single incident or a series of incidents following a pattern in that industry, but I'm not familiar with the pertinent specifics in that industry.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I'm with you on this one.Give me a reprimand but don't make me start a complicated activity over. I don't usually go roaring through red's but may back through by a few feet or juggle over the line while trying to get the signal to clear.On the horn blowing issue, I spend a lot of time changing the crash probability settings to avoid this. It bugs me that MS gives you the option of easy driving with the automatic fireman and turning the alerter off but is so unforgiving on these issues.Bob

Bob Dawes

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-03 AT 07:33 AM (EDT)

As my rant in the TP2 activities thread on the main forum demonstrates, this is a key PROTOTYPE REALITY issue for me. Those of you who love GAME OVER Gotcha's are missing the point...rules violations can be easily made more prototypical in MSTS2. Here's how...I have yet to see those critical of my views explain why this is not a more prototypical solution than GAME OVER gotcha's:The place to put demerits for rules violations that stop short of causing an accident is in the EVALUATION, not in the activity. A more prototypical penalty for a non-accident rules violation could be if you are ordered to stop your train in a safe place and escorted off the property to begin your suspension or termination, but ACTIVITY ENDED simply does not SIMULATE reality.Somebody please explain why that is not more prototypical than GAME OVER gotcha's.

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.