Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?

I heard people comment on bugs they saw on screenshots. They say they hope it will be fixed before the release date. Others have said they want something slightly changed. But really, knowing MS, will they really change anything? They were willing to show it at E3, have designed the box, and even got it rated. Think, they were quite a few bugs when they released MSTS 1!Thanks!
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RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, precentor, Jun-03-03, 07:02 AM, (1) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, metraup, Jun-03-03, 10:57 AM, (2) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Motley24Crue2, Jun-03-03, 09:06 PM, (3) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, heffed, Jun-03-03, 09:46 PM, (4) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, amtkfan79, Jun-04-03, 01:12 AM, (5) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Woozley, Jun-04-03, 06:50 AM, (6) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, metraup, Jun-04-03, 10:08 AM, (7) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Jonatan, Jun-04-03, 12:20 PM, (8) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, heffed, Jun-04-03, 05:23 PM, (9) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, heffed, Jun-04-03, 05:33 PM, (10) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, BNSF4723, Jun-04-03, 09:51 PM, (11) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Coonskin, Jun-05-03, 10:33 AM, (12) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Woozley, Jun-05-03, 07:56 PM, (13) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, angelanvil, Jun-05-03, 08:34 PM, (14) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, heffed, Jun-05-03, 10:25 PM, (16) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Woozley, Jun-06-03, 01:23 AM, (17) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, plainsman, Jun-07-03, 04:26 PM, (19) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, xlspecial261, Jun-08-03, 11:49 AM, (20) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, plainsman, Jun-09-03, 05:14 PM, (23) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Woozley, Jun-16-03, 01:29 AM, (26) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, plainsman, Jun-16-03, 01:10 PM, (28) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, Engineer, Jun-05-03, 09:18 PM, (15) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, thomil, Jun-06-03, 04:36 PM, (18) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, buzzbenz, Jun-09-03, 04:41 PM, (21) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, plainsman, Jun-09-03, 04:59 PM, (22) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, buzzbenz, Jun-09-03, 05:24 PM, (25) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, buzzbenz, Jun-09-03, 05:23 PM, (24) RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?, sd70mac666, Jun-16-03, 11:17 AM, (27)

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I don't want to see MSTS1's bugs appearing in MSTS2.

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No one does, but MSTS 2 will probably have its own and MS isn't to caring about what people like, if it doesn't hinder sales.Thanks!
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well this makes me think of Flight sim.... what was the first one like? now whats the most recent one like? there ya goRobert Steskal
Philadelphia, Pa

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Errmmm.... The version at the show was still very early in development.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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I agree -- A lot of people seem to think that programmers have the entire thing all written, and are just sitting on it waiting for the promised time to come so they can release it. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

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I would prefer to see the developers spend more time on new features between major releases rather than zapping every last bug out. Don't get me wrong - I would like the big bugs stomped on before release and subsequent patches where required but the more perfect you want new software the later the release date. I'd rather have it sooner !I'm simply pleased that the product is profitable enough to continue with a version 2 and beyond. I will buy it for the new route content alone. An improved graphics engine and new features are a bonus.Constructive feedback from the users that a developer responds to would be the ideal world ?

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If they are willing to show the world their software, they must think that not too many changes need be made!Thanks!
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As I ain't to much for caring about release dates I'd say that MS should finish the game and use bugspray elminating all bugs and when tested to ensure that all will work as it should THEN they can release it.I will however wait on what you guys have to say about it first before considering purchasing it as I'm happy with V.1.I don't intend any flames as it's just my opinion./JonatanSteam rules!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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>If they are willing to show the world their software, they
>must think that not too many changes need be made! You couldn't be more wrong.They weren't showing the world their "software". They were showing the world the "capabilities" of their gaming engine. There is quite a big difference here.There are many games "shown" at E3 that don't actually come to market until three years later. Many of the games shown are simply pre-rendered movies of the games characters and action shots. No actual gameplay whatsoever.The version of MSTS2 "shown" at E3 was extremely limited in scope. It could only do certain actions, and show certain things. Much of it was largely inactive. You couldn't even really call it a "game" at this point in development, as the actual "play" value is almost non-existant.If they thought there weren't actually many changes to be made, why was the release date pushed back? Certainly not because they want to lose money by releasing it later.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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>I would prefer to see the developers spend more time on new
>features between major releases rather than zapping every
>last bug out. Don't get me wrong - I would like the big bugs
>stomped on before release and subsequent patches where
>required but the more perfect you want new software the
>later the release date. I'd rather have it sooner ! I think this is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen.I think deveplopers releasing shoddy software due to the ease of patch distribution through the internet is the worst thing that has happened to games.I would much rather wait longer for something done right, then spend $50 bucks on some half @$$ed release that I need to wait for a patch (or several patches) to be released for the program to function properly. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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RE: Is MS really gonna change anything with MSTS 2?No, they're just gonna repackage the original version, sell it for $70 CDN and hope nobody notices Looks Like a Pony RUNS LIKE A STALLION

September 11th, 2001: I stand united! Peace to those who perished... R.I.P

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-03 AT 10:34 AM (EDT)

I tend to see it your way too, Jeff.Had it not been for the fixes I found through this forum, don't know if I'd ploughed through this thing or not. If I ONLY had what came in the box: Fun for a while, but short lived.IMHO, it needs to be a much better FINISHED product that's placed in the hands of the consumer so that add-ons ENHANCE and not FIX the fool thing. Love it as I do, MSTS1 is buggy, buggy, buggy. Andre Ming

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>I think this is perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen. You must have a dull world Jeff>I would much rather wait longer for something done
>right, then spend $50 bucks on some half @$$ed release that
>I need to wait for a patch (or several patches) to be
>released for the program to function properly. Heh heh I'd wager $50 bucks you buy MSTS 2 within days of release regardless of the write ups...I'm not saying half @$$ed is okay - not at all - I expect software to be functional and _strive_ to be perfect at release too. MSTS 1 has flaws and the standard at release could/should have been higher than it was, but it wasn't far off. I have purchased several games that were much worse at release bug wise, eg Grand Prix 4, Unreal, Stronghold etc. Trainz crashed my computer regularly on first release.The alternative to releasing software with minor bugs is removing features or delaying release, as you prefer. I say a regular product cycle (with support) that takes advantage of the latest graphic hardware and new features is better. A 3 or 4 year development cycle means the software released is dated at least graphics wise. Less likely to sell. No profit = no software.

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We would all like a nicely developed, well thought out, accurate, BUG FREE program. But, realistically cash flow is going to have to hit sometime and the pressure will be on to release the product.I am a big fan of small incremental improvements. If we didn't have small incremental improvements there might be conversations like: "Well Wilbur and Orvil, so it only flys 400 feet. Its no good unless it goes around the moon." It would be great if M$ and Kuju could deliver a truely bug free software. Then, on a regular informal schedule offer incremental, bug free, improvements for a small nominal fee. This would keep the cash flowing and still offer the community the entertainment that they want. Eventually a new level would be reached that would require a new release. But, there is a better chance the new release would be free of bugs, wow our socks off, be very entertaining and satisfy everyone except those that do not want fork out the money for the new rev.In closing, we know it is unrealistic that all products will be bug free. But, under no circumstances should we ever have to pay to fix bugs. We purchased the software in good faith that it works as intended and advertised. It is then incumbant upon M$ and Kuju to correct the bugs in good faith. Otherwise, the advertising should clearly indicate the software works mostly as intended, except for the the things that don't work, but the you the customer, has to deal with those. The Marketing guys would really endorse that copy.
Bug fixes should be offered for no charge. My company repairs or replaces defective product, because we all take pride in our workmanship and want repeat business. Customer satisfaction is the key and its just plain good business sense. Finally, sorry for the rant 'n rave in the last couple of paragraphs. It was not menat to be an attack on bugs, but sorta turned out that way.

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>You must have a dull world Jeff Nah, I just surround myself with intelligent people. >Heh heh I'd wager $50 bucks you buy MSTS 2 within days of
>release regardless of the write ups... Then you'd be out $50. I always wait for the haze to clear before I purchase something. Regardless of how long I've been waiting for it. Especially software.>I have purchased several games that were much worse at
>release bug wise, eg Grand Prix 4, Unreal, Stronghold etc.
>Trainz crashed my computer regularly on first release. I would take them back if they're that bad. It doesn't matter if a store has a "no return on opened software" policy. If the game doesn't operate as advertised, they have to take it back. Tell them to take it up with the publisher.>The alternative to releasing software with minor bugs is
>removing features or delaying release, as you prefer. I say
>a regular product cycle (with support) that takes advantage
>of the latest graphic hardware and new features is better. A
>3 or 4 year development cycle means the software released is
>dated at least graphics wise. Less likely to sell. No profit
>= no software. Buggy software = No profit.Yes, a regular product cycle would be nice, but unrealistic. It takes an amazingly long time to develop a good game. Granted, some things such as graphics suffer a bit as technology moves on, but a great game can overcome bad graphics. If the gameplay is excellent, eye candy isn't as much of an issue. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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>Nah, I just surround myself with intelligent people. Is that to make up for something you lack ? Smart people recognise the difference between stupidity and a difference of opinion. If you always wait for the haze to clear before making a decision that sounds dull to me. If you delay then buy it anyway then all you've done is delay yourself possible enjoyment.I've put $50 aside and will be patient for release date. Anyone who is defending a product as strongly as you even before release can't wait for it to turn up.

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I notice from your # of posts you have not been around here very long. I think those of us who have fought the battle from the first have a little more understanding of what Jeff is saying. There may be a reason to release software with many annoying bugs, but that should also obligate the developer to patch or fix the product, once realistice evaluations reveal serious problems. Many of the most frustrating bugs in MSTS1 have never been fixed or the fix only partially helped. A very large part of the problem is not time constraints, but a beta program made up of folks who are not capable of understanding the actual problems. I do wish the developers would seek more sophisticated beta input and at least try to accomodate those of us who want more operational simulation than glitzy gaming. You can't simulate railroads with people that don't know, understand, and like railroads.
Bob

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A very large part of the problem is
>not time constraints, but a beta program made up of folks
>who are not capable of understanding the actual problems. I
>do wish the developers would seek more sophisticated beta
>input and at least try to accomodate those of us who want
>more operational simulation than glitzy gaming. You can't
>simulate railroads with people that don't know, understand,
>and like railroads.
>Bob Well, I offered my services when Kuju was looking forsomething like this.They weren't interested in an experienced engineer that knows how a 18,000 ton train stops and goes......Todd

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Todd,
If they had people like yourself on the beta testing team, they couldn't explain how that 18,000 ton train ought to stop in less distance than I can put a 15 pound shot. Sure the SD40-2 develops 700kN of braking force, that is only about 41% of its weight, no problem???
Bob

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>I notice from your # of posts you have not been around here
>very long. Wrong actually.I've been here since shortly after the software was released. My first posts were feedback on the early versions of Demex, several MSTS1 bug reports and later suggestions for MSTS2. So I haven't been totally sitting on my backside.I just don't feel the need to say much except when someone gets insultive.I stay fairly quiet also because the abuse some people cop here for a point of view is unwarranted. Some of the flaming competitions and dummy spits on this forum have been incredible.I do sometimes pipe up when an important counter view is missed. I have no doubt the developers read this forum, or at least they did in the past before the praise for MSTS1 stopped and abuse bacame the norm. I actually still think MSTS1 has a damned good terrain engine and set new standards in 3D simulation. I hated the bugs but am far away from needing to return the software for a refund. I suspect very few others did demand a refund.I look forward to MSTS2, will pre-order it and am glad there will be one or more sequels.I do hope there isn't a competition or kudos attached to those with the most posts ?I totally agree with your comments otherwise, and I do appreciate the effort many have made to keep on MS's / Kuju's case and improve the product.
Paul

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-03 AT 01:13 PM (EDT)

I was honestly not trying to insult you. I didn't mean you were less intitled to voice an opinion, but folks with more experience with the bugs in the sim are probably more frustrated by them, even though I agree totally, I enjoy the sim very much and want it it get better, certainly not go away. I do think, however, that KUJU has brought a lot of the consternation upon itself by not attempting to repair many of the well documented problems in the first version before now. I don't mind if the realease is premature, but fix it when you learn what is wrong.
Bob

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-03 AT 09:18 PM (EDT)

I like what has been promised in the hype, I'm buying it. I can accept incompatibility if they thought of a better way to do it. I didn't mind giving up DOS for Windows, did you?? Time goes on and we step over the bodys. I'm not going to throw away MSTS1 just because MSTS2 comes out.

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Now this whole thing about bugs is beginning to bug me (no pun intended)! Granted, MSTS has some problems, some big ones, and I believe that MSTS 2 will have vthat same problem. Programs these days have become so complex that you cant avoid all bugs. And from what ive seen, even that E3 presentation of MSTS2 was much better than some games i checked out yesterday. Being an aviation buff, i checked out Airport Tycoon 2, now THAT is BAD! And im normally very tolerant when it comes to bugs. I personally think that MS and Kuju learned a lot with MSTS 1. They will implement their new knowledge into MSTS2.
Lets see how it turns out!
Greetings from frankfurtThomas

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Bugs nothing!!! They TOOK OUT all of may favorite features in Airport Tycoon 2!! I was hoping they'd FIX the stupid object placement issues when you build your own terminals, NOT remove the option to build your own terminals altogether!! And people complain about MSTS! That'd be like fixing the front coupler bug by removing front coupling! ------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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Buzz! Buzz,
Don't give these guys any foolish ideas. Foolish ideas might appeal to them.
Bob

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LOL!!!!PLEASE!! KEEP THE FRONT COUPLER!!!Hopefully that'll fix my mistake! ------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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Here's my take on all this...There are a LOT of factors to consider as to when to release a game...
YES, you DO want as many bugs eliminated as possible. And i agree, MSTS 1 was released with some rather large bugs (which, however, have never seemed to end my enjoyment of the program - hmmmm, maybe i got a different version than everyone else or something! ).BUT...No program reaching the scope of MSTS will ever be 100% free. Look at the enormous factors you have! First off, there is a mind boggling amount of hardware this sim has to run on. Some people have had problem after problem with the sim crashing - i, on the other hand, am still on my original installation (well, since i re-formatted to put XP on, over a year and a half ago anyway). Then, you have to make this program so that people can add in their own content. That aspect of a program is what usually just invites bugs. Think about it - Trainz is not without it's share of problems, nor is FS2002 or MSTS.So you get into the thing where you must make a choice. Personally, as i have enjoyed MSTS very much, i think Kuju and MS made the right choice to release when they did. Continual delaying to eliminate EVERY bug SOUNDS great, but we'd never get the program! First of all, money will play a factor in that. That has already been mentioned in this thread. BUT - ya know what happens if you wait even 6 more months? A brand new batch of hardware comes out! It may take you a while to test everything on the new hardware, making sure you don't screw it up for the old hardware, and PRAY you get it all accomplished withing the 6 month product development cycle before yet ANOTHER new rash of harware hits the market!On top of that, you have to make sure 3rd party content can be added in! There, you end up removing a lot of "checks" to keep things running smooth, or you end up with a massive amount of code to check and verify everything. You do the first, the program would probably never run. You do the second, you'd need a Cray Supercomputer to run it. Somewhere in the middle, you get a program with some bugs, but generally runs pretty good. And you still get your third-party add-ons. Which pretty much is where MSTS falls.True, Kuju/MS DID leave a couple of hideous "glitches" in the software (none of which really affect us in the Passenger Train world though...). But i would stand to reason that they have learned from that...Just before ripping too much on the creators of the game, think about that kind of a duanting task, creating something that does what MSTS does. And the fact that if they tried to hammer out everything, either we would not be able to add our own content, it would run only on a limited set of hardware, or we'd still be waiting 5 more years for MSTS 1 to come out... Personally, i think i'll take the glitches...That's my 82 cents....Feels like i should wrap this up with "Thanks for watching, and good night" or something!! ------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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82 cents aren't you 80 cents over?
BNSF Detector Milepost 666.
No defect
Train Speed 66.6mph
Axle Count: 666
Ambient Temperature 66.6 degrees
outI'm otherwise known as the SatanTrainOh I remember now Dr. Satan. God damn it everyones got to know about Dr. Satan and you know what I'm going to do you a favor, I'm going to let you meet the old geezerIt's all true, the boogie man is real and you found him(Rob Zombie, House of 1000 Corpses)

Soon I discovered that this rock thing was true. Jerry lee Lewis was the Devil, Jesus was an architect previous to his life as a prophet. (Ministry, Jesus Built My Hotrod)

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