Formal Permissions List

What would people say if there was a kind of "Charter" i suppose that some route/train etc authors could sign saying that any of the things they have made can be used in other freeware addons (for BVE) without the person who wants to use it having to email the author asking for permission.So. . .
If Anthony Bowden agreed to the charter, then he would list what files he didnt want people to use (as i think there would be less of these) and the rest people could freely use, providing they have given credit in the readme, AND sent out an email to Anthony explaining what he is using.
Then if Anthony didnt want the person to use it, then he can email back saying so.If you have got what i mean so far well done.
I think this would greatly speed up route and train creation, and so long as someone manages it properly, then it could be quite effective.What do you think?

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RE: Formal Permissions List, Tim Frost, Sep-11-03, 03:38 AM, (1) RE: Formal Permissions List, ferrovipathe, Sep-11-03, 03:53 AM, (2) RE: Formal Permissions List, Technical Numpty, Sep-11-03, 04:41 AM, (3) RE: Formal Permissions List, cl180, Sep-11-03, 05:11 AM, (4) RE: Formal Permissions List, Technical Numpty, Sep-11-03, 05:13 AM, (5) RE: Formal Permissions List, ferrovipathe, Sep-11-03, 07:36 AM, (6) RE: Formal Permissions List, Technical Numpty, Sep-11-03, 08:55 AM, (7) RE: Formal Permissions List, ferrovipathe, Sep-11-03, 10:16 AM, (8) RE: Formal Permissions List, Technical Numpty, Sep-11-03, 10:52 AM, (9) RE: Formal Permissions List, Wulf_9, Sep-11-03, 01:30 PM, (10) RE: Formal Permissions List, Mr Gizmo, Sep-11-03, 01:43 PM, (11) RE: Formal Permissions List, Anthony_B, Sep-11-03, 03:02 PM, (12) RE: Formal Permissions List, NathanWhitington, Sep-11-03, 04:15 PM, (13) RE: Formal Permissions List, cl180, Sep-11-03, 04:42 PM, (14) RE: Formal Permissions List, NathanWhitington, Sep-11-03, 06:14 PM, (16) RE: Formal Permissions List, Routemaster J, Sep-12-03, 06:49 AM, (18) RE: Formal Permissions List, TomBeevers2000, Sep-12-03, 11:07 AM, (19) RE: Formal Permissions List, mailer_diablo, Sep-11-03, 04:53 PM, (15) RE: Formal Permissions List, Tim Frost, Sep-11-03, 08:33 PM, (17)

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Here we go again.Let's face it, getting permissions takes about 1% of the total time to build a route. It's honestly the LEAST FRUSTRATING PART for me! I send out a quick email with the list of stuff I've used to the respective authors and I usually hear back within 3 days. I have never gotten a "no", knock wood. The authors like to know WHO is using their work, WHAT route it is going into, and WHERE it will be available. The why and the how are obvious but those are reasonable questions. While ANYONE can use any of MY (ones I myself have created entirely on my own) objects, sounds, or textures, I do appreciate knowing where they're being used so I can keep track of them. I'm not going to turn down any reasonable request but I do want to know where my stuff is. It's not unreasonable, and I suspect that most people who suggest ways to get around it are just too lazy to make a list and ask. Look in one of my routefiles in the object definition section. Next to every line there is a notation of where the object came from and who made it. I do this when I add the object in. It makes it very easy to just make a list at the end when I ask for permissions. I use objects before I ask for permission (never publicly), figuring that if the author says no it won't be too hard for me to whip up a replacement for whatever it is.It's just not that hard to ask for permission to use something. Most of the time, when you're "done" with a route, it'll be a few days before it's ready for release anyways. There's always something else you have to change to make it just right. Take my word for it on that one at least! Tim Frost
NVTA Subway routes for BVE:
http://nvta.co.uk

The Union Atlantic Railroad: Your stuff's important!
http://union-atlantic.com

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That's exactly I said a long time ago.
The web is a freeware space, and everything published on it can be 'raped' by 'Hackers' without difficulty. You can find special freeware tools to do that on it .... So, there is only two ways:
- freeware (with copyright if wanted)
- shareware or commercial.As BVE is freeware, I don't think shareware or commercial have great future with it. Who want to pay for something free ?That's the same for permission. The rule must be: everything is freeware, and may be reuse without permission, with copyright's respect, except if author write he don't want so. But, in that case, what about web spirit ? What about BVE community, and Mackoy wishes?Why recreate wheel again and again? If some one create a fine viaduc, why may you not reuse it in an other route?Remember: Southern route is a sequel of Sandymill, with few new things, but a fine route too.All the best.

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>So. . .
>If Anthony Bowden agreed to the charter, then he would list
>what files he didnt want people to use (as i think
>there would be less of these) and the rest people could
>freely use, providing they have given credit in the readme,
>AND sent out an email to Anthony explaining what he is
>using.
>Then if Anthony didnt want the person to use it, then he can
>email back saying so.
>
>What do you think?
Hi Gang!!I don't see the difference between this and the current "system".To take Anthony's work as an example, each file is clearly labelled to say that he has exercised his right to copyright his work, and that it may not be used without his permission. To me, this is actually far better than having to maintain a seperate database of files. In addition, given the freeware nature of BVE and the community spirit, I actually don't believe that any developer has any files that absolutely cannot be used by anyone else whatsoever, which would make a "central list" pointless.E-mailing the developer about files not on a list is exactly what people do (or should do) now. A brief explanation of the project together with a full list of files and a polite request is usually all that is needed to secure the author's permission.I actually think that a better idea would be for developers to clearly label their routes as being entirely copyright, copyright free or mixed content using the relevant banners available from the BVE Developer Guidelines website. These would alert other developers to the need to request clearance.On a personal note, my own personal preference would be to contact the author of any file to let them know what I was intending to use and why, whether it was copyright or not.Just my two cents...Technical Numpty

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i was just interested thats all

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That's cool. Technical Numpty

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I think you make a mistake between copyright and permission.
If you create something, especially in writing, you get the copyright of it. It's your work, it belong to you.But, when you create a route, if you have the copyright on the route, you must prove you had created objects and sounds from scratch to have the copyright.
And, even if I'm not a lawer, everybody know stories of people making lawsuit each time there is a little chance to get money back. (For example, with Harry Potter (C) )What I want to say is that you may not put copyright on an object or a picture without giving proof of your work. And it is very very difficult to do that for every little picture, as you can find nearly the same freely on web without great difficulty. And it is not because you 'create' an object that it's belong to you. And even if yes, it is so easy to change coordinates a little, or lines' order, that it is quite impossible to put copyright on it. And web's objects are virtual, not real. And BVE's objects are virtual things inside a virtual space.So, if you are not the author, or , and it means the same, if you can't prove it, you get not the copyright. And without copyright, no permission needed. That's the international's laws.But, if you want to be kind with the author, (and there no reason to be not), you can contact him, (and I think it is the best way), but if you don't do that, no matter, no lawsuit, because copyrighting something without proof is not legal. And I persist to not understand why some need than other ask for permission for files they put freely on web... Are they so in lack of recognition from others ? Aren't able to make a gift to others ? Our Judeo-Christian society is it so ill ?

Yes I am utopian, but I still think that sharing things with others is the best way to cement, to stick a community, to make it growing and powerfull, not asking permission for every thing.All the best.

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Hi Fella!!Sorry my friend but, for the UK at least, your understanding of copright law is not correct.The following link will take you to a factsheet about UK Copyright Law. You will see that copyright belongs to the author of a work (a computer programme counts as a literary work) if it is regarded as original and exhibits a degree of labour, skill or judgement. The factsheet makes no mention of having to produce any proof whatsoever.http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/law(01).htm
(You'll need to copy and paste this to the address bar so that you get it all in.)Whether we like it or not, copyright exists under UK law on all original work carried out in BVE. However, certain developers have decided to waive their rights under law and allow people free access to re-use whatever they wish, while others have decided that they want to retain some degree of control over what happens to their work as the law allows them to. Contrary to popular belief, the internet is not one huge source of copyright-free information. Placing files there for open download does not mean that they are free to use as people please. As with all decisions that people make, whatever decision developers make must be respected.I agree that it benefits the community if work can be shared, and I believe that it is. Developers are happy to allow the modification and re-use of file in different routes if only people would take the time to ask. However, we should not take this for granted, as wholesale abuse of the freeware side of BVE is going to put people off from making routes and trains, and we would be the poorer for it.I hope that this helps.Technical Numpty

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"Copyright arises whenever an individual or company creates a work: A work is subject to copyright if it is regarded as original, and must exhibit a degree of labour, skill or judgement.
Interpretation is related to the independent creation rather than the idea behind the creation. For example, copyright will not exist in names, colours or ideas, but will exist in a work composed of these elements. In short, copyright may protect a work that expresses an idea but not the idea behind it. "That's I was writing: If a route is protected by copyright, objects can't, because 'copyright may protect a work that expresses an idea but not the idea behind it.'
It is so easy to transform a little an object or a picture that it is quite impossible to protect an BVE's object.
- You create an object, and put your copyright on it.
- Someone want to reuse it, and ask for permission.
- If you answer no permission, what's happening: The object is rewrited, with small changes, and that's all. If the picture's table of colors is changed too, your copyright is falling down.
So, there is no reason to put copyright on objects or pictures because it is not possible to protect them, even if you had tagged pictures.And for what? That's really the big question. For what ? a BVE Big Boss,a V.I.P.? I complain those who want that. There are too many more important things to do in life than playing BVE... Remember, it is only a game, and people are dying during that...I don't think it will be a lot of abuse of the freeware side of BVE, because there is no money behind that.
And, no money, no war. Perhaps some 'robberies' from youngers(?) for fun, or from beginers (to learn how do..), but not a lot.
And I still think that flaming others on forum is a better way to put off people from making routes than roberries ( aren't these showing the quality of the original work ? Nobody, except a fool, will pirate an huggly object or picture...). All the best.

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>"Copyright arises whenever an individual or company creates
>a work: A work is subject to copyright if it is regarded as
>original, and must exhibit a degree of labour, skill or
>judgement.
>Interpretation is related to the independent creation rather
>than the idea behind the creation. For example, copyright
>will not exist in names, colours or ideas, but will exist in
>a work composed of these elements. In short, copyright may
>protect a work that expresses an idea but not the idea
>behind it. "
>
>That's I was writing: If a route is protected by copyright,
>objects can't, because 'copyright may protect a work that
>expresses an idea but not the idea behind it.'
>It is so easy to transform a little an object or a picture
>that it is quite impossible to protect an BVE's object.
>- You create an object, and put your copyright on it.
>- Someone want to reuse it, and ask for permission.
>- If you answer no permission, what's happening: The object
>is rewrited, with small changes, and that's all. If the
>picture's table of colors is changed too, your copyright is
>falling down.
>So, there is no reason to put copyright on objects or
>pictures because it is not possible to protect them, even if
>you had tagged pictures. ResponseNo, that's not right. I have reproduced point 7 and highlighted the relevant part;Acts restricted by copyright
It is an offence to perform any of the following acts without the consent of the copyright owner: copy the work, rent, lend or issue copies of the work to the public, perform, broadcast or show the work in public, adapt the work.As you can see, it is an offence to adapt any work covered by copyright without the author's consent. It doesn't matter how many colours, vertices or faces you change it does not make it your work, whether it's a route, object or sound file.To re-quote what you've put above;"copyright may protect a work that expresses an idea but not the idea behind it."What this means is that you cannot copyright an idea. If you think to yourself "I know, I'm going to recreate the seawall at Dawlish" but do nothing with it, you can't copyright that idea to prevent anyone else doing it before you. However, if you actually go ahead and make the seawall at Dawlish in BVE, you have produced a work that expresses that idea and have the right under UK law to assert copyright over the files that make up that work, which includes any objects and texture that you produced as original work.>And for what? That's really the big question. For what ? a
>BVE Big Boss,a V.I.P.? I complain those who want that. There
>are too many more important things to do in life than
>playing BVE... Remember, it is only a game, and people are
>dying during that... ResponseI quite agree. However, I think you are blowing this issue out of all proportion. The experience of most people is that a polite request to a file's author is usually enough to secure their agreement for it's re-use.What the law is there to do is to protect the work of people who have put in the hard graft from being ripped off. OK, so it's mainly written with commercial works in mind, but it applies equally to BVE. What you are suggesting is that I can re-release anyone else's work and claim it as my own provided that I move a tree 1 metre to the left. I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong.>I don't think it will be a lot of abuse of the freeware side
>of BVE, because there is no money behind that.
>And, no money, no war. Perhaps some 'robberies' from
>youngers(?) for fun, or from beginers (to learn how do..),
>but not a lot.
>And I still think that flaming others on forum is a better
>way to put off people from making routes than roberries (
>aren't these showing the quality of the original work ?
>Nobody, except a fool, will pirate an huggly object or
>picture...). ResponseOh dear, oh dear. Flaming is not the answer. The answer is to respect everyone, whether they are a developer or a player. If that means respecting their wish to assert their rights under law, then that's what we have to do.I also disagree to your suggestion that "theft is the sincerest form of flattery". Why do you think that Anthony Bowden isn't on this forum today? Was it because he was flamed? No!! It was because he got pissed off with people nicking his work without the courtesy of asking him first. Or perhaps I should also draw your attention to the more recent arguments between John Owen and Peter Mackosh over the unauthorised use of John's work...?I'm sorry, but what you are suggesting is a "free-for-all" that will eventually lead to chaos. You call yourself a utopian, but what you are suggesting could so easily lead to BVE hell. Yes, it would be great if everyone could live together happily and copyright was never an issue, but that just isn't the case. As I've said before, what people need to do is to respect each other and the decisions they make.I'm available via PM to discuss this further with anyone who is interested.Best RegardsTechnical Numpty

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-03 AT 07:29 PM (EDT)

Hi TN,Thanks for that - sometimes it's necessary to bring something into the full light of day so that all may see how it is, you speak more sense in a few words than many do in long diatribes.... keep on contributing, I for one am happy to have such a perceptive and magnanimous member in our midst.Ferroviepathe, your intentions are honourable, of that there is no doubt, but you must come to accept that the overall effect of the work in hand is what people pay attention to, not the amount of changes 'under the skin' to objects or textures. If this 'synergy' is destroyed by modification then the original integrity of the work is lost, and the creator, quite rightly, feels aggrieved if such changes give an inaccurate representaton of their skill and diligence. Were it always true that a modified or updated route, sound or object was actually better than the original then the idea of 'compliment' would be fairly shown, however no-one can say for certain that whatever the thing is will be 'improved' by being changed, therefore the original author would like the world to know that the quality of that work is a direct result of their own personal input.In a nutshell this is the principle that copyright law tries to set down, that it is the author's right not just to be recognised as such but to demonstrate the fact that it was their effort that makes it what it is.CiaoSaxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-03 AT 02:02 PM (EDT)

Well Said Wulf, and TN!I couldnt agree more, let me point out that here is my stance on the whole debate from a developers point of view...The few objects i have created may be used (THATS USED NOT ALTERED) without an email, i will however require recognition in the readme file!But remember different developers will have different rules! For train sounds and cabs its a different story i will require an email for extraction of any components and alteration of cabs done by myself or any of my co authors. Rest assured, unless your name is on my list of NO NOs you will not be refused, if thge sound isnt mine you will be reffered to the relevent person! Id just like to know whats happening with any of the sounds i have released into trains before they go elsewhere, a simple email and i am only too happy to help!
and after that a mention in the readme is also required.Dont agree? then its quite simple DONT USE THE COMPONENT!Slick managed it in his class 150/1 with the few sounds he reused why cant anyone else who doesent agree with the current situation?Mr Gizmo

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>What would people say if there was a kind of "Charter" i
>suppose that some route/train etc authors could sign saying
>that any of the things they have made can be used in other
>freeware addons (for BVE) without the person who wants to
>use it having to email the author asking for permission. That's what my "BVE Object Collection" is for, only I haven't had time to sort out the files I want to release as freely re-usable yet.Re. copyright, can't be bothered to comment on it again, same argument with the same people making the same points holding the same views, been there done that.Cheers,
Anthony.
--
www.railsimroutes.co.uk
www.bvetrains.co.uk
www.railsimroutes.co.uk/bvehelp/

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>That's what my "BVE Object Collection" is for, only I
>haven't had time to sort out the files I want to release as
>freely re-usable yet. I built quite a few objects in my own downloadable object collection however I removed it due to lack of interest.......

--
Nathan Whitington <><

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its the story of everyone's life.
I think we should all write to the governmant and tell them that we're sick of being busy.
Its just i emailled a few authors about using some objects for my route, and they have not replied, but i did this a fair few weeks ago.
But what i thought, is that if they had signed this "Chrater" then i could use the objects, and send them the download with a list of the files used, so they can see where ive used it.
No matter- i will wait more

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>I think we should all write to the governmant and tell them
>that we're sick of being busy. Who? :|>Its just i emailled a few authors about using some objects
>for my route, and they have not replied, but i did this a
>fair few weeks ago. Could we see some screenshots Joe?>But what i thought, is that if they had signed this
>"Chrater" then i could use the objects, and send them the
>download with a list of the files used, so they can see
>where ive used it.
>No matter- i will wait more Supprisingly (I really do mean that) some people here have real lives to attend to, and when those people are busy its often not easy to reply to emails allowing people to manipulate objects etc. However if there is anything from my ever expanding object database you would like to use, please conatct me, nwhitington<><@aol.com (remove the fish to reply) I don't bite.

--
Nathan Whitington <><

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I downloaded it, it was very helpful I especially liked the Semi-Detached houses The resources are there for people and I my self am planning to release a few objects such as the buses I have made, to be used as they are without permission but with a credit acknowleging where it is from. However I will state that permission is required if any of the objects are to be altered in any way, like re-skinned textures etc.That will be AFTER the bus route is released.

Joshim,
currently constructing the DLR Route for BVE & Oxford Street BUS ROUTE! Check out my website http://joshimsbveroutes.gamehorizons.net/

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I have used the Semis, Flats, Apartments and one other I think in Picc v3. Very helpful!--
Tom Beevers
http://brj.rr.nu

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>What would people say if there was a kind of "Charter" i
>suppose that some route/train etc authors could sign saying
>that any of the things they have made can be used in other
>freeware addons (for BVE) without the person who wants to
>use it having to email the author asking for permission.
>The proposed IBOD (International BVE Object Database) by Tim?

http://koti.mbnet.fi/rogorox/

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Working on that...It's ready for testing/building and eventually opening pending the installation of the server pack, which is out of my hands. Tim Frost
NVTA Subway routes for BVE:
http://nvta.co.uk

The Union Atlantic Railroad: Your stuff's important!
http://union-atlantic.com

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