Standards, consistency and all that

This may be a long posting so I’ll try to save time here and now by saying I'll be deliberately vague in identifying routes and that nothing in what I say is intended as an attack of any sort upon any given route, train or author.
First off, I am a freeloader and admit it – I download routes and keep those I like, but people like me are, I think, largely the target of those of you who find the time and talent to code trains, objects and routes, arrange appropriate sounds, then simply give them away. (With, as discussed in another post, no more than a perfectly reasonable request that permission is gained for use of any such work by another person and due credit accorded.) I am very grateful for these efforts but I have to beg that such authors do not succumb to the unreasonable pressure I know is put on them to release work that really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
I like my routes to have something more than basic scenery and feel rather cheated, however much others may rave, when a route supposedly passing through a major city is depicted as having green fields either side from end to end. There is nothing wrong with that – it’s what the author wants and is totally satisfactory to many of the drivers, but, I feel I\ve wasted my time downloading the files and finding they lack what I, personally, consider basic and appropriate scenery. Authors, if that’s what the route is like, say so – tell us it’s basic, no scenery, let us decide if we want to download it. A little of that sort of description would work wonders on how I, and, I’m sure, many others view your future work. After some downloads I’m afraid there’s no way I shall go near certain authors’ works in future, it’s simply too much time and bother to download, install and subsequently delete. That, by the way, is my decision and not those authors’ fault.
I can be very picky too because it is often the small things that make a difference. Having written to one developer with some picky points I was invited to beta test that developer’s latest venture. I could not help but remark on receipt of the files that what this developer considered about right for beta testing was of a higher standard by degrees of magnitude than many routes released as complete and including a list of so-called beta testers. What do people think is the purpose of beta testing? Answers, from most of them I suspect, on the back of a postage stamp.
Oh, sorry, PLEASE.
Consistency is something else I think developers should also pay a lot more attention to. Consistency of markers for speed restrictions, for example. How many routes have a speed restriction warning that doesn’t give you time to brake to the restriction itself, then follow it with another warning that has you doing a Pavlov’s dog and throwing out the anchors only to spend the next twenty minutes wondering where the hell the restriction is? Or, vice versa. Too many, I’m afraid, and surely such inconsistencies are things that a beta tester should at least mention, given the developer has the last word. As a developer, how difficult is it to get the actual restrictions right, then do a search on the relevant markers/objects file call and at each hit go back a consistent distance to place the warning marker? Likewise stop markers and other instructions. I’ll break my own rule here and quote WJMK and Birmingham X-City South as superb examples of consistency. Many could learn much from adopting the standards applied to those routes – a very big thank you, Anthony B, for routes that are a total delight to drive.
And how can routes get into the public domain amid heaps of applause when, should the route be a real one, major accidents are inevitable? Ballast that’s level when the track is on a downward gradient – nice overrun trap but, er, on the main line? Vans parked such that they foul the train’s kinematic envelope? 20 mph crossovers on a 75 mph stretch of track with no warning, even of the restriction itself? Stations where temporary coding (possibly to allow a train to start from a normally passed station during route development) is left in on release and means trains are expected to stop while the .gif says ‘non-stop’? I can tolerate Mr Angry getting livid but worry somewhat about having punched an innocent van on the snout. Just a question of, if you like, a 'final check before going public'.
Details, ladies and gentlemen, please. I don’t like the thought that developers are in the game of coding BVE solely for the purpose of catching us punters out but, well, that is the impression I get all too often. Another old proverb is about ‘spoiling the ship for a ha’porth of tar’ - why spoil your route by rushing to get it into the public domain before it is really ready? What would it really cost to take another hour or two – one more day before release - to get some of the little bits right? Yes – bugger all as opposed to a route that you are forced to withdraw or revise within days of its release. And what does THAT do for the reputation?
There’s more but, well, discretion is, they say, the better part of valour.

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Standards, consistency and all that, ... [View All], Largslad, 04:59 PM, May-27-03, (0) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Rufus, May-27-03, 05:43 PM, (1) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Largslad, May-27-03, 06:44 PM, (2) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Wulf_9, May-27-03, 06:46 PM, (3) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Bluetrain048, May-27-03, 06:53 PM, (4) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Wulf_9, May-27-03, 07:15 PM, (5) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Largslad, May-28-03, 03:40 AM, (6) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Wulf_9, May-28-03, 03:50 AM, (7) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Piccadilly_Line, May-28-03, 04:26 AM, (8) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Rufus, May-28-03, 05:49 AM, (9) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Stooopid_person, May-28-03, 05:52 AM, (10) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Piccadilly_Line, May-28-03, 06:04 AM, (11) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., TomBoyRacer, May-28-03, 07:51 AM, (12) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Largslad, May-28-03, 01:19 PM, (13) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., etjason, May-28-03, 01:52 PM, (15) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Largslad, May-28-03, 04:46 PM, (16) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Stooopid_person, May-29-03, 07:07 AM, (18) RE: Standards, consistency and all that, ..., Largslad, May-28-03, 01:39 PM, (14)

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Ufff... I don't know if coding routes, objects and trains is permitted within authors' permission.
Furthermore, I think those routes are made in order to enjoy them.
If not, ask to some authors if they make their routes (work or enjoying mode). I made three fictional routes because I like making routes.Greetings,
Rufus.

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I would suggest that use of any author's work is permitted with the consent of the author. Few people would be so narrow-minded as to upload anyhting to the net without knowing that once there it is essentially in the pulic domain. As has been stated in other threads permission can and should be asked to use someone else's work and from what I have seen as very much a bystander in the Copyright debate, this permission is usually readily granted with the small and reasonable rider that the original author be credited for his or her work. I do not see that as a problem and with all due respect this was not the purpose of this posting. See my diatribe on Copyright for a fuller discussion.
You are perfectly right to say routes are made to be enjoyed and I had hoped I had made that point. If someone makes and posts a route that I don't enjoy, that is my problem, not the author's.
My main point, perhaps not properly expressed, was that if an author releases a work to the world then he or she should ensure the work is to a high standard of compliance with railway rules and with reality.
I have no problem, and said as much, with routes that are released in basic mode. People like them so there is a market. It's not my choice but that is my choice and I do not condemn or deride such routes. What I asked is that someone releasing a route, say, supposedly representing the Newcastle Metro system tells us whether it's basic, that is route and major features only or one that tries to emulate the atmosphere of a big city. The word 'atmosphere' is important; I don't know Newcastle that well but all I'm asking for in such routes is at least an impression of a large and vibrant city or, and stated on the download page, a basic route.
It's impressions that count and if a BVE developer doesn't want to code that impression I can not dispute his or her decision.
You enjoy coding routes, I have no problem. If, however, you go public, just, please, tell us what level of realism to expect. Basic, some or full, remebering that none, in my book, has to be 100% acurate, just a reasonably realistic view. Put all sorts of rubbish there in an urban environment - all the driver will note is a 'built-up area', but please, don't have green fields on the approach to, again, say, Kings Cross.

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LAST EDITED ON May-27-03 AT 06:50 PM (EDT)

Got out of the wrong side of bed today did we?This is too much like 'sledgehammer to a nut' for my liking... if you have a beef with a particular route, contact the author, if you have a beef with loads of them (as you indeed seem to) then just delete the thing and say nothing.The problem here is that a young developer-to-be might come in here, read this post and think 'hell I won't bother if I'm gonna get ripped apart because I don't know all the ins and outs of railway practice and one or two things might be out of place' etc.... discouragement to further effort is, in my book, a far bigger crime than not being 100% perfect.Please moderate your attitude, your previous posting about copyright was lucid and well-argued, this is not, it's pure vitriol and as such is getting deleted after people have had a chance to see this reply.
Saxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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LAST EDITED ON May-27-03 AT 06:56 PM (EDT)

A valid point there about beta testing.Getting good testers however, is something easier said than done, and it requires a fair bit of trial and error. With BVE hardly being a serious profession, it makes the task a whole lot harder still.There are far too many people begging, pleading and bribing to be a beta tester, completely unaware of the responsibility and work that comes with it. A lot of people seem to regard the task as 'getting a quick preview' of something in production, and that all they need to do is download it and say thanks (with the thanks being optional in a lot of cases).Far too many times have I trusted someone to test my work only for them to bugger off and never respond, or even in the worst cases, spread my work around like wildfire to the extent that there's no damn point releasing it myself.Being a beta tester requires patience and good observation skills. It requires you to be frank and honest, and not be afraid to insult the author. It takes up a fair amount of your time, as in the case of a route, you should drive it from start to finish using various traction several times. And even if you don't find a problem, there should still be a certain level of feedback that an author expects from a tester.Maybe now, you can see why in the software profession the last thing people enjoy doing is testing something properly (edit: can't get used to this damn thread-within-thread thing, I'm in the habit of just hitting the closest reply button, usually the one at the bottom.)DavidBVE in Glasgow:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/zerosignal/bve/

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... and therein lies the reason why a good route takes a long time to get to release standard. I remember a certain SR v2 being driven to death by a whole team of people who are, at least, competent drivers and at best railway professionals, this process has taken nearly a month to complete... bugs and errors, updates and tweaks have all been addressed prior to any file going live.Not everyone has this kind of help and so I would say to all would-be route coders out there - find youself a small competent test team who you can trust, give them the chance to thoroughly drive every permutation you have made, and be prepared to make corrections/rewrites as needed, unless you decide there and then that it's as good as you want it to be. Only then should you consider going public.CiaoSaxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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:-( Apologies, unreserved, that the original posting has caused offence. This was not intended and it is heartening to note that the main point I was trying to make has, in fact, been picked up. Thank you, David for doing so and Wulf for your response. When, Wulf, you delete the original post may I ask that you leave those responses and advice?
Thank you.

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Ok,No problem I might now leave the original, as it gives a spring-board into the rest of the threads in the topic, but it's not my usual policy to allow contentious or damaging posts to remain, unless there is good contextual reason. This is one such.CiaoSaxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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If you don't like a route then the delete key will always oblige.Re beta testing hear here David. The number of people I get, when I post a screeny, saying "Can I beta test?" is huge. The number of people who you send the beta to and get no response off is about as large. At a guess I only know 6 testers who can test properly.--
Tom Beevers
http://brj.rr.nu

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Uuuuuuuuuuuuf! This is unbelieveable!Can I call this post "The Dark Side of BVE Routes"? I say it because all you talk of BVE as if you don't like BVE, but........well, you talk, but not me, because I don't know exactly some of this post.Greetings,
Rufus.

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>Re beta testing hear here David. The number of people I get,
>when I post a screeny, saying "Can I beta test?" is huge.
>The number of people who you send the beta to and get no
>response off is about as large. At a guess I only know 6
>testers who can test properly. Am I one or do I critise too much which makes authors unhappy(in Crotrainz)?

------My favourite LUL train------

HAPPY NOW? It's not moving anymore.
It's still the same train but in another livery, that's all.

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Hmmm .I think yer a good beta tester, up to a point, but I mean whinging that the wipers on a bus are the wrong way round is just a *bit* (!) OTT .--
Tom Beevers
http://brj.rr.nu

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Here is my response:
I also don't like to see greenfields in supposedly urban areas. but that's usually because somebody has either run out of objects (an old problem now) or, sadly, they didn't put the effort into coding surrounding buildings.
beta testing is (a rhetorical question i presume) a way of ironing out errors and bugs that may not have been apparent to the author. sadly, it is not intended as a measure of quality.
there have been a few routes that have dissapointed me due to lack of quality, that where really still at the alpha stage upon their release. i think this is due to the inexperience of the coder.
Tom

Easternsim: Routes for BVE

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One learns things every day and comments in this thread have helped me appreciate why there is so much debate about copyright. The wonder is, perhaps, not so much that people keep quitting BVE but that so many grit their teeth and stay on in the face of this daylight robbery to continue providing pleasure for the rest of us. Thank you all.Wulf is quite right but there might be a problem finding trustworthy people simply through net contact. If you resort to using friends then there is a possibility they won’t be honest enough to criticise. Maybe, even, that is the case with other testers – please note this is not a whitewash accusation but if, as Dave says, some will distribute beta software willy-nilly then isn’t it possible some may think ‘If I criticise too much I won’t get to do any more’? I also suspect Dave has hit the nail on the head with the comment about getting one’s hands on a new route before it’s generally available.Wulf suggests six honest and reliable testers. I will bow to his expertise. To get those six, though, you might need to filter through a couple of dozen. A small suggestion, therefore, to hopefully curtail, at least, some of the piracy.Make twelve copies of one particular object. Change one thing in each of these twelve objects. It could be a colour, a word, anything that wouldn’t require much work. Distribute to twelve applicants noting, of course, who gets which variant. Make it very clear that each tester is receiving a unique work that can be traced back to him or her. Make it equally clear that if this work is distributed and located, the source can be traced and that further beta-testing for that person is unlikely. Maybe even code a thirteenth copy of the object for the released version.How about a ‘deliberate error’ that makes the route unworkable? Possibly too obvious as it could be circumvented, but you never know with the creativity shown by many developers, perhaps it could be done. Might also spike the guns of the ‘early release’ fiends.OK – just a thought or two.

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The only problem with the way beta testing is going now its always the same names. Mostly other route builders. Now I don't want to sound like sour grapes but....I know I will never get asked to be one( for some reason i pissed someone off) but alot of the testers seem to have high end machine which is ok by me But Mackoy set a min. standard for BVE to work and many are moving away from that.When some of the earlier routes that came out and started developing more graphics, (I believe it was Robert) found out there needed to be a less graphic intense version or a patch for different video cards and sound cards. Theses allowed people with older sytems to enjoy the routes as well as the Killer App Machines. Sure most of us would want an ultimate Game machine (Alien Ware of example) But we don't.I understand some route developers only trust other developers, But there is more to Beta testing then showing off there works. Does it install correctly. People assume all people have a previous route or object file and don't. Does it run on different video and sound card and we all know a lot don't. This would stop the treads we get latter on my sounds don't work or video has blocks around it or I am getting error 9 missing an object.That's my 2 cents I expect to take flack for this.
Jason

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Jason, I think this may be support for my point of view but whether it is or not I hope you do not get flak because I think your point is wholly valid. It is, indeed, a point that I was thinking of making but, well, simply didn't have the guts.So, let's try again."Ladies and Gentlemen who are BVE developers - Please open up your ranks a little. Let the outside users of your work also have a say. The rules are clear - in the end the routes belong to you and yours is the final say but, please, take note of what those outside the ranks of BVE developers might have to say."There was a lot of talk after the demise of the CroTrainz forum that it signalled the end of 'western BVE'. I never thought that was really the case but, if things go on as they have been for a week or two now then, while BVE will survive, it's too good not to, the community will fragment, and that, to my mind, would be a tragedy.Let's all stop, take stock, and start again.Please.

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>I know I will never get asked to be one( for some reason i
>pissed someone off) but alot of the testers seem to have
>high end machine which is ok by me But Mackoy set a min.
>standard for BVE to work and many are moving away from that.Big deal, I always piss people off. And the creator will also need people with low end machines to see what kind of frame rates they get and to advise people on what type of computer specifications they need to get smooth frame rates(>18).

------My favourite LUL train------

HAPPY NOW? It's not moving anymore.
It's still the same train but in another livery, that's all.

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Thank you, David - thought I'd got too deep there for a while.I'm not sure I would particularly want to 'insult' an author but a beta tester must be prepared to be very critical. And the author must be prepared to accept criticism in the spirit in which it is given. His, as someone else has said, is the final decision. I have made points elsewhere about full and proper testing - in the work environment - but I can also sympathise with the BVE developer who feels under a lot of pressure to release something. I have less sympathy for those that appear to say 'that will do - can't be bothered with this one any more, I want to get on with xxxx to yyyy'.I haven't finished my beta testing yet but with just one route file I have still managed six or seven full passes. These include the route file as supplied (is the timetable realistic?), some very low speed runs, two or three in the 'blimp' from varying heights and angles and one with the S & D modified NSWGR Class 30 steam loco, which has the advantage of a full-width field of view. You can pick up a lot of little things that way that may otherwise be hidden by the cab graphics. Until someone uses BRR and picks a cab with bigger windows. goodness only knows how often I've worried the signallers by stopping a long time in section. As you say, it is hard and serious work.

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