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I have watched, from afar but with interest, the endless debates about copyright in BVE. Doubtless these are reflected in many other disciplines across the net where people create things and release them to the world, then get miffed to find someone has used their work without crediting the original author. Another such has erupted on this forum and maybe it’s time to consider offering a hand of conciliation rather than rattling the sword of war.
Essentially, the message is, ‘sorry, guys, this is the REAL world’. But - there are some defences.
Reactions to evidence, possible or proven, of piracy of code vary. There is the ‘I am withdrawing from XXX and not releasing my code’ and ‘I will not support this website that uses pirated routes, cabs, object or whatever’ – both are the ‘I’m pulling up my pants and going home if you’re not going to play by my rules’ camp. Yes, I know ‘my rules’ are alternatively known as international copyright law but let’s be honest with ourselves. When someone releases a piece of code to the ‘WORLD WIDE WEB’ – remember what WWW stands for - there will eventually be thousands of thousands of copies of that code floating around the world for anyone to take and use as they want.
The other reaction is ‘I’m writing to the author with details’, roughly translated that is ‘I’m going home to tell Daddy and he’ll come out and thump you’.
I have been in DP for many years and one of the basic tenets is ‘why reinvent the wheel?’. Why indeed? Maybe there is an argument that using other code, that in many companies is specifically the copyright of the company, not the developer, is acceptable in a business environment. I know I have saved myself many hours and my employer much money by using previously developed code where appropriate – it’s a ‘standard’ in the world of computers.
However, I do have respect for those authors who devote time and infinite patience to developing something in which they can take pride and share with others. I am very grateful that people have this attitude for I have derived huge pleasure from driving BVE routes. Thank you here and now to all authors who have contributed to that. They must, however, understand there is a risk in so sharing and no amount of protest on this forum or on home pages is going to prevent that. If it could, we would all have ten times the speed and fivc times the bandwidth because all the hard porn sites would be shut down.
Clearly the first reaction when piracy is suspected should be for the author of such work to write to the suspected pirate, in at worst neutral terms, to ask if the work is original. If necessary, and there is no shortage of such talent in the BVE world, any such approach could and should be made in the pirate’s native (assumed from his website address) language. The website in question here is Czech – why not consult CroTrainz? If handled properly then the author and re-releaser can surely reach an amicable agreement. If handled improperly nothing will change, the work will still be on the net and uncredited and the pirate won’t really care a fig that a forum like this has decided to boycott him/her and his/her sites. Why should he/she? You might not like it but that is simply a fact of life.
Another thought is that if, in most cases as I suspect, this is mere copying by people with few programming skills, why can’t an author to incorporate a distinctive message/symbol/design into his/her code? Given all the furore about copyright would anyone here seriously object if a coder introduced a ‘copyright’ or ‘used by courtesy of’ (even if ‘courtesy’ isn’t really the case) message somewhere? In most cabs I’ve driven there would be plenty of room for this and for the purists, well, what do you want? Are you really going to be irredeemably put off by a little notice somewhere saying that ‘x’ is the creator of this cab? The ignorant pirate will not have the skill to remove such a notice and for those that ask for permission to use (whatever) the authors could have a modified version of the code for distribution to those who agree to provide appropriate credits.
Trouble with that is, someone could swipe the modified version off an approved site. Maybe we will have to put up with permanent credits on our cab views – is it really that hard to take? And, like it or not, until there is some WWW enforcement agency you will not be able to stop any old Tom, Dick or Harry taking what they want off the web and using it in whatever way they wish.
And, I’m sorry, that applies to the ‘BVE community’ as well.

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RE: Copyright, ChristopherT, May-22-03, 04:04 PM, (1) RE: Copyright, Wulf_9, May-22-03, 04:43 PM, (2) RE: Copyright, etjason, May-23-03, 02:42 AM, (3) RE: Copyright, ferrovipathe, May-23-03, 10:40 AM, (5) RE: Copyright, Bluetrain048, May-23-03, 10:12 AM, (4) RE: Copyright, etjason, May-23-03, 01:55 PM, (6) RE: Copyright, Largslad, May-23-03, 02:41 PM, (7) RE: Copyright, Wulf_9, May-23-03, 03:37 PM, (8) RE: Copyright, Bluetrain048, May-23-03, 04:37 PM, (9) RE: Copyright, ferrovipathe, May-24-03, 07:18 AM, (12) RE: Copyright, smace, May-24-03, 00:00 AM, (10) RE: Copyright, etjason, May-24-03, 02:36 AM, (11) RE: Copyright, ferrovipathe, May-24-03, 07:23 AM, (13) RE: Copyright, smace, May-24-03, 10:23 AM, (14)

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>I have been in DP for many years and one of the basic tenets
>is ‘why reinvent the wheel?’. Why indeed? Maybe there is an
>argument that using other code, that in many companies is
>specifically the copyright of the company, not the
>developer, is acceptable in a business environment. I know I
>have saved myself many hours and my employer much money by
>using previously developed code where appropriate – it’s a
>‘standard’ in the world of computers. How much more effort does it take to email someone and say "I'd
like to use this item from this work you did, and I will give you
credit for it. If you say no, I'll find another item to use and
won't use yours."?? Especially when those terms are written in
the documention of the work in question? Christopher

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Well,There is merit and value in both these viewpoints, Largslad is dead right about code re-use in the programming and computer industry, but as also stated, it is partly commercial pressure that makes that happen, I don't think there are many programmers who would refuse the offer of a project to develop a new software tool or other code item, with extra pay, rather than being told 'use xx library it's good enough'.Bve developers have nothing further from mind than money or other financial gain, so the question of ethics does take precedence when the only condition of use is a bit of politeness and human consideration.Security of material can be one of two things :-
a) blatantly in-your-face, such as the mooted idea of having copyright text all over the cab window... no thanks I'd rather walk!
b) subtle, implied and not detailed... such as my current methods of invisible marking/signing using PGP and similar tools.In the end no-one can police the internet, we just hope that our materials are used in the spirit in which they are offered.CiaoSaxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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Just a quick Thought on this topic when it come to other sim programs.How does MSTS,Trainz, Flight Sim and the sims (also Simcity) get around this.You can go to many site and just click on a download and get objects or use program tools put out by the publisher and I have never seen people complain. and there is tons of stuff out there.On the other point. Now you know how record complains and software houses feel about copywrite rip-off.On coding when I started out in the 60's and 70's many Cobal, Fortran and JCL librarys where there for the usings. We had open source and did not have these kind of problems there ment to be rewritten. Again this was before Billy Gates and I want money for everything. Which is why Lunix is so big.
And it does not stop there, How many people steal HTML and Java codes for there web page.If you use someone ones work there should be away to get there permission or a clear statement somewhere on how to use there code. What happens when a person is gone. How do you stop people from using it or is there a worm built into there work that makes it go away if you don't check in regularly?
A person bent on doing something will do it guidelines or no. Sorry most countrys have laws on the books about everything but yet people are still going to jail.Jason

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Yes, Jason, it seems to be two kinds of people, older starting with Basic, Pascal, C, Processor's language, just coding for fun and happy to find open source to learn, and try to do best if possible, and newer who don't understand pleasure of sharing with others.It's a point of view, and as I always said, a source belong to the author. I also aggree with the guidelines, and I try to respect it.But I still don't understand why some want to be credit for any part of something which can help others to do best.That's their choice, but it seems that searching along the Web if somebody use without 'permission' something they have done, is coming more important than enjoying with the game. (That's a game, isn't it?)And I am sorry, I really think they are wrong. When someone tell me he take some pleasure with my work, I am happy.But if he show me how best work he is able to do with mine, I think I have done something more, I give him the desire of progress.And it's my proud. All the best.

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Just to reiterate, most of the authors who want control over the usage of their work are *not* wanting to stop reuse of their work.Credit where credit's due is the central point here, not, as many seem to think, the prohibiting of object reuse.DavidBVE in Glasgow:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/zerosignal/bve/

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LAST EDITED ON May-23-03 AT 01:57 PM (EDT)

Correct! Nobody say that don't deserve the credit. Almost (yes I did say Almost) everywhere they do. Books ,Music, Game code etc.It's funny how people will tell you, you can't use something or your stealing something but don't think anything is wrong with download music from site and playing them on MPEG players or burn or rip CD,DVD's or software. You can't have it both ways.The other debate starts here when someone wants to put out a tool to help BVE then fights break out as if someone is tring to steal from them. People ask for advice or try to put out stuff like Tutorials and then all hell breaks loose. (examples Routebuilder, CSV converter, Object Builder, Tutoral Docs)Guidelines, Copywrites, Terms of Service, Loyalty oaths whatever you call them even sign you name in blood. The good well suffer from the bad and that a fact! Jason

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I wondered if my posting would attract ‘flame’ and I am very pleased to see it has not. Thank you. The many points raised show how much of a minefield this can be.
Christopher T – dead right although my point was that a developer of another program (as in this case) might well never have heard of BVE but in talking over his idea with a mate is told ‘I’m using a sim with exactly what you want, you can have a copy of the files’. Yes, the argument there is that it’s not the mate’s to give away, but how can you stop it?
Wulf – I wasn’t aware that such tools were available, of course that’s preferable to blatant signage in the cab but all it allows is for you to track pirated code, it doesn’t make it clear to someone who may simply copy code without ever opening it to possibly see a statement that the code is copyright. Incidentally, as a maintenance programmer I have spent much of my career finishing off or correcting new programs that eager young blades have written but only, ever, 90% completed. That sort of programmer isn’t worth extra pay, it’s the guy that comes along, gets into the original programmer’s mind and makes his program work properly that deserves (and, in time, usually gets) the extra pay. However, that’s off topic – sorry.
I agree entirely with your last statement; all a BVE developer can do is rely on others’ sense of decency and right thinking, and if that reliance requires some less than gentle hints on websites then so be it.
ETJ – spot on. Question is, have BVE coders resorted to copyright simply because they feel it fair to be credited for their work (and don’t get me wrong, I agree) but such credit is not forthcoming from freeloaders? And as is still apparent on this forum, how do you get permission to use code when the original author cannot be contacted or does not respond?
Jean-Louis, you have a different attitude that I am sure all respect and your code should be considered ‘open access’ (?is that the right phrase in the new BVE developer guidelines?) As long as you don’t use someone else’s code obtained with permission and then put it out as open access. BTW, I downloaded and ran Loop last night – excellent and one of relatively few routes where the timetable is achievable. Thank you.
David – also spot on, exactly the point I was making. Thank you, too, for going back online with that wonderful shot of the Forth Bridge. If I mention ‘hankies oot!’ will that remind you of a mail that has not, so far, been answered?
You will always get the irresponsible, those that pirate others’ work and put it out as their own and there is not much can be done about it except, where they are identifiable, to take the initiative as I said and ‘do the asking’ in reverse. This, therefore, is to those who act on gut instinct – don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. You will lose more respect by closing your site and pulling out of BVE development because some of your code has been used elsewhere than if you simply decided that it is, the way we are now, inevitable, and continued to ‘carry on regardless’. After all, by doing so you are punishing those who don’t deserve to be punished, a point I think some have begun to realise.
Again, I reiterate my thanks to the many developers who have given me hours of pleasure driving their trains on their routes. Please don’t let relatively unimportant things destroy this.

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Indeed not. We care greatly about what we do, possibly more than some might who would be making payware, because to us there is only one reward worth a damn, and that is the perceived/anticipated pleasure of knowing some Bve driver somewhere has had a 'wow' attack Admittedly it's not always possible to post messages about stuff but sooner or later I think it's not unreasonable to expect a bit of feedback, even if it's along the lines of 'nice train/route but the panel/signals/trees/universe is not displaying correctly please help' kind of thing... so long as there is communication of some sort, everything else can follow...CiaoSaxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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LAST EDITED ON May-23-03 AT 04:51 PM (EDT)

To continue that Wulf, it might be a good time to mention the type of situation which drives people to want to protect their work.That is, when you've spent absolutely ages going out of your way trying to make something just *perfect*. Next thing you know, someone has reused it without so much as a "Hi, I'm using your stuff".The result : someone else gets all the thanks for your hard work. I must stress that I don't work for the thanks, but it does make me bitter to know that their easy successes came from my (unacknowledged) sacrifices. Maybe that's just my failing.Oh, by the way, I'm not necessarily talking about BVE itself here. I've not produced enough stuff to warrant my whining about that, but my attitude comes from experience in other areas.I think the Forth Bridge picture on my site is a good example. Only a few days after I uploaded that photo, someone had nicked it and used it as decor for their own site (not BVE related, I must add). As if this wasn't bad enough, this person seemed to claim that the picture was theirs. And bang! There you go.. that's the story behind the awful copyright notice I added to the photo. (Just in case those ones on the site footer were written in invisible ink. Maybe some people are right.. why bother?)A different example, again related to photography, is when I released a lot of my photos online for free. "Spirit of the internet" and all that garbage. The photography cost me a lot of money, but it was fun. A webmaster of a similar style website noticed my 'free for all', and decided to use some of my photos. Little did I know, this webmaster ended up getting *paid* to give prints of *my* photos! Tell me then, how would you feel in this situation if you were me?I despise all this copyright bull. I wish people had some kind of instinct which at least acknowledges the work of others, but I'm living in a dreamworld. In reality, people's instincts are to feed greedily off of others for a quick victory.The tighter developer's community however, is the best I've ever seen. Sharing is constant, the trust is strong and the outcomes are simply astounding, as you can see for yourself I'm sure. DavidP.S. Chris : I'm afraid I'm in my last weeks of studying at Uni, and replying to email has been a slow process.. I've got so much junk coupled in with genuine requests that I literally have to wade through everything cautiously. I do appreciate the mail and will reply though!BVE in Glasgow:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/zerosignal/bve/

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>A different example, again related to photography, is when I
>released a lot of my photos online for free. "Spirit of the
>internet" and all that garbage. The photography cost me a
>lot of money, but it was fun. A webmaster of a similar style
>website noticed my 'free for all', and decided to use some
>of my photos. Little did I know, this webmaster ended up
>getting *paid* to give prints of *my* photos! Tell me then,
>how would you feel in this situation if you were me? Like you David, exactly like you: very angry.
Nobody is permitted to reuse a work stolen to make money with it. All copyrights are for that. And doing so is not suitable.But, I make a difference (and a big one) between job and pleasure.
You know, I'm M.D. in an Children's Hopital in Paris. If I write a professional paper, and if someone copy and paste it, change some words without references, it is very easy to exhibit the literacy piracy. And no one, as professional, is able to risk a public blame for that.
But if a new paper, bearing references, bring something new or better, that's the rule. All we need is progress.My position is clear, and you may 'credit' me, BVE is a game, and not a job. Do you know how many hours Loop need to be completed ?
Do you know how long the 500m curved viaduc's sceneary, the Moorland's track map were to be completed ? But, I think, because it is a game, and not a professional job, build for fun by someone (Mackoy) who sent everything (BVE, Utilities, Commands, ...) as Freeware, that I must do the same to others.
The wonderfull work done by developpers belong to the autors, but I never see a begin of credit to Mackoy in routes or objects's files. And, without Mackoy, no problem about routes and images' roberry, because without BVE.exe, nothing would work, and files stayed listing.So, as we are (aren't we) a community of people loving BVE, and as everybody is able to see from where came the ideas, the images, the sounds, because we are a few, dont'you think we are spoiling a lot of time on account of small miserable way of life of some (very very few) people ?I prefer learn, create, teach (if possible), and enjoy.All the best.

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If I may add my comments.
First a very well reasoned and though out thread on a very complex subject.
Second, reuse of or modification of anything I get for my own use is not an issue. Partially because no one else would know. I change something, or modify a route or an object and it stays on my machine and, unless the software police come looking, it is hidden. I also believe that this would be covered under a fair use portion of a copyright, although I do not know how the law would apply to this. It would be much like my getting a copy of the Gorre & Daphetid
model railroad plans and then building it with a new siding or curve.
Third, a point has been mentioned in several posts. Earlier on there was mention of libraries of code for programing that are generally available, either through public access or for purchase. Either form comes with rights to use in a public distribution of new software. Second there was a question of how other simulator communities, ie MSTS, deal with this issue. An answer to both these comments can be found in the download section of this site. If you go there (and other locations) you will find hundreds, if not thousands, of objects to download and use in building your route. Most of them come with right to use in a public release route with out asking and / or with only credits. To my knowledge, there is not a large library of objects for BVE. There was the beginning of one on CroTrainz, but that is gone. The Route Builder creaters have also began to address this with their library.My talents are not object creation. I have a nephew who likes to do that, so I let him. Other people may not have that option. For the most part, the only current way to get objects is to make them or download a route and use those objects. As mentioned earlier in this thread, getting explicit permission is some times difficult.
I think that one way to address the issue is to have a library of objects that can be used with out asking. Credit should be given, where requested, and perhaps a standard format could be used. Again to give credit to the RB developers, they do have a format that they follow and most of Steve Green's objects follow a standard format for creator information. Not every one does. A standart libary of objects might help eliminate the temptation to use copyright objects. Most people follow the easiest path. If there were a large supply of easy to get objects, I think most people would go that path rather than use limited use objects.

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Thats true but like I said the last time this was brought and it did start a war. Ran over 100 replys and nothing changes. That what made me bring up the point about other sims. Wulf point is valid about the good felling you get that people are doing it to expand and BVE and make routes and trains that are like the real thing. Hence why it's a simulation and not a game. Though some don't see it that way. A Poll/Post that came up here made a statement about what kind of route would you like me to make.... followed up by something ending I am doing for your use not mine makes you question if they want to be big man on campus or helping expand BVE
Route builder was delayed because of no standard Object sources.
Copywriting parts of BVE has problems in that what are you copywriting. The texture you put on something. If it's your picture or sounds I say yes. But the core that makes things work are Mackoys
The vector based drawing is a standard along with sound and video files. They way they are put together is whats creative. If I make a person object that has the same vector size as some one else did I violate his copyright. Is there more then one way to do something. If you did it first does that mean no-one can ever do something like it again.How do you encript it and why. Once the secret is out there will be people out there working to undo it. What about Mackoy's copyright and changes to what he wants with the software. Do we have a right to impose our ideas on him such as rules he may not agree with.Jason

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Do we have a right to impose our ideas on him such
>as rules he may not agree with.
>
You are right. Nobody have, and japan routes are in the same spirit.

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An interesting topic, but far from simple.
I graduated, a long time ago, with several people who became patent or copyright attorneys. They have been paid very well to answer these type of questions. What is fair use, what is theft, what is building on the knowlege base, what is same time discovery. Bell was not the only person to invent the telephone ( and maybe not even the first). The lawsuits over that were not settled until late in the 1900's if I remember the story correctly.
In the BVE community about all that can be done is to exile the misbehavors. Unless some one wants to make it their lifes work to keeping the community accross the world in line. Of course, they will need a multi language staff, a good internet connection and the latest snoop software. Oh Yes and lots of money to do this as a service. ( By the way if YOU are reading this, I can formard my resume' )
Things do change, slowly, but they change.

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