Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-02 AT 11:13 AM (EST)

Hi, I just created a database for entering requests for empty cars on the Yahoo Yard Duty Group. Yahoo YD Group.I really think we are missing the boat in our approach to empties. Railroads have to deal with empties. They don't just magically dissapear. That's part of the whole freight forwarding system. Empties are a pain in the butt that railroads have to deal with and I think that it adds an important element to YD. The prototype doesn't just ship full cars all the time, so why should we?I created this database to make it easy, very easy to figure out where to send those empty cars to when you have unloaded that freight. Anyone who is a member of the Yahoo group can add their own requests (and please do). For example, if you have an industry that sends out loads in box cars, then you can put up a request for box cars for that industry. If your yard has an intermodal ramp, then you really need to put up a request for intermodal flats and well cars. I think that we really should rethink the whole YD attitude toward empties. It's the big area where we just totally lapse from railroading reality. And really there is no reason for it. You can ship and re-route empties just as easily as a loaded car. And I actually enjoy having to deal with them and getting them back to their home road or yard. It's fun to look at a cars history too to see that it wasn't just created for one single loading. It should continually be forwarded, loaded -then empty, just as the real cars are. I hope some of you will consider using the database to route empties back to where they belong. Like I said, it's protoypical and fun!Alan

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RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, pwm33, Dec-12-02, 11:17 AM, (1) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, leesome1226, Dec-12-02, 03:54 PM, (3) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, KingJPW, Dec-12-02, 04:04 PM, (4) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, romanrails, Dec-12-02, 04:54 PM, (5) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, romanrails, Dec-12-02, 05:08 PM, (7) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, KingJPW, Dec-12-02, 03:53 PM, (2) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, romanrails, Dec-12-02, 05:05 PM, (6) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, KingJPW, Dec-12-02, 05:33 PM, (8) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, romanrails, Dec-12-02, 06:05 PM, (9) RE: Empties Database Created for the Yahoo Group, KingJPW, Dec-12-02, 07:30 PM, (10)

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Nicely said, and nicely done. Thanks AlanPaul Metzger

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I think that its a great idea, however I would like to see it implitmented into the game so you don't have to go digging up that page to know what to send where. I think if Jim could add a list to the server of requested cars, that would be the best way to use this idea.Idea is very good however!Chris Lee
Train Artisan

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Requesting cars from each other to serve an industry on your local machine is something that will most appropriatly be handled among yourselves, perhaps within your team or with another member who is dedicated to operating with you in this manner. Remember, there is no database of users to keep track of this person or that person, or who is requesting something thing today from somebody, but not tommorrow. Basically, I'm not going to maintain a list of such requests, but you guys are free to do it on your own (and encouraged). I want to encourage interactivity among players, and this is one of those things that should/must remain 'outside of Yard Duty'.Jim

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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It would be nice if the list of places looking for empties could be on the actual YD site. The database can be downloaded as a comma-delimited file. Would you be willing to post it to the YD site, perhaps in the team area or in the instructions in the section about what to do with empties? Just seems like it would be better to have all the info together in one place and the YD home page would be the first choice.

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Perhaps when we get a good list going Jim will post it somewhere on the YD home site. Or someone could post it here. The file is easy to download and import into just about any word processor or database utitlity. Or you could always just print it out from that page. It's actually a really handy item, the database function of the Yahoo site. I could see us using it to list appropriate cars for a map, trains (already started one for that) and a lot of other things. I'm no great fan of Yahoo, but that is a good feature. Alan

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Alan,Good work and it's nice to see that you are interested in dealing with empties. I'm sure you are aware that there is an option that converts loaded cars into empty cars when delivering the easy way. This option was added for people like you who want to deal with empties and would prefere not to pretend that loaded cars never return to the yard. (although in real life the empties certainly wouldn't return on the same trip, but this is a compromise so that people can deal with empties.)"...I think that we really should rethink the whole YD attitude toward empties."
The YD attitude is that you can deal with them if you want to. And I think that your database will allow you to simulate this with those players who are interested. "...It's fun to look at a cars history too to see that it wasn't just created for one single loading"
I agree. A car's history continues until it is re-loaded using the hard or easy way(with the option described above). This is to prevent the history from growing indefinetly (which would creat huge .trn file) In other words empties continue to have history, until re-loaded! Also the history is used to plot the path of the car, starting from it's origin to it's destiantion, and wherever it goes as an empty. So when a car is empty, you can still see what it's previous task was (assuming it had one)"...to route empties back to where they belong"
I struggled with this when developing the game concept. So where do empties 'belong'? a) I guess the answer is where the yardmaster decides, based upon customer demands. I think this is what your database is trying to simulate. The most important thing is that when posting an empty train, to describe what to do with it in it's instructions. It is obvious what to do with loaded cars, but it is not obvious what to do with empties. b) Routed toward the 'home' road? But in YD I have avoided the concepts of 'railroad', 'yard ownership', 'trackage ownership' and 'era', because trying to implement this within the game would lead to a multitude of non-prototypical things going on. The reporting marks are really just to distinguish one car from the next, and were not intended to be used to route empties toward their home road, although this is prototypical."...Empties are a pain in the butt that railroads have to deal"
Yes, but I don't want YD to be a pain in the butt for ALL players, just nuts like you.
Jim

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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>Good work and it's nice to see that you are interested in
>dealing with empties. I'm sure you are aware that there is
>an option that converts loaded cars into empty cars when
>delivering the easy way.>Yes, I love that option.
>"...I think that we really should rethink the whole YD
>attitude toward empties."
>The YD attitude is that you can deal with them if you want
>to. And I think that your database will allow you to
>simulate this with those players who are interested.
>I guess I was referring to the suggestions that empties in trains are useless. I, for one, can find uses for them and enjoy the challenge of dealing with them. It would be good for new players to know that they have two options - to deal with them or not to and not to think that they shouldn't have empties in trains.
>
>"...to route empties back to where they belong"
>I struggled with this when developing the game concept. So
>where do empties 'belong'? a) I guess the answer is where
>the yardmaster decides, based upon customer demands. I think
>this is what your database is trying to simulate. >Yes, exactly. This way you aren't stuck wondering what to do with your empties. You can look at the database and see where the nearest yard or industry that wants that car is and then start the car routed that way. As far as road names and home yards go, I suppose you could use the general geographic area of the car as a guide if you wanted to. For example, and empty Southern box car you might head back toward the South etc. I try to use road names appropriate to the area that a car is created using the options in the 'view' menu (great options for naming cars I might add). >"...Empties are a pain in the butt that railroads have to
>deal"
>Yes, but I don't want YD to be a pain in the butt for ALL
>players, just nuts like you.
>In fact, yards and switching in general are a huge pain to railroads, but that is what we are simulating - what they would love to not have to do! So I guess we all must be a little bit nuts!
>
>Jim

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"...I guess I was referring to the suggestions that empties in trains are useless."
Empty trains are not useless if you provide instructions of what to do with the empties. "..It would be good for new players ... not to think that they shouldn't have empties in trains."
True, but a person should not post a bunch of empties thinking that someone is automatically going to take each empty to a destination. The idea is to LOAD empties somewhere (i.e. anywhere using easy or hard way!!!) and get them to their new loaded destination.Basically, the game is all about delivering LOADED cars, although you can deal with the empties if you like. In fact, empties have no destination per se. What you see is the destination of the PREVIOUS delivery. It is your job to re-load cars (for example, based on your database) and send them to their new random destination, or assign them a new destination if you like That's what I am trying to make clear.Jim

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-02 AT 06:08 PM (EST)

>True, but a person should not post a bunch of empties
>thinking that someone is automatically going to take each
>empty to a destination. The idea is to LOAD empties
>somewhere (i.e. anywhere using easy or hard way!!!) and get
>them to their new loaded destination.That's the idea of the database for empties: to give players some sort of direction for empties so they aren't randomly putting them out there. As long as players will attempt to forward them to a requested location and not just click them off into the void.
>
>Basically, the game is all about delivering LOADED cars,
>although you can deal with the empties if you like. In fact,
>empties have no destination per se. What you see is the
>destination of the PREVIOUS delivery. It is your job to
>re-load cars (for example, based on your database) and send
>them to their new random destination, or assign them a new
>destination if you like That's what I am trying to make
>clear. Yeah, got that. I just enjoy it when it is a little more prototypical. At least when every single train isn't 100% loaded. It is nice to see a few empties and I enjoy loading them up and setting a destination more than just using the 'create' button to whiff up a new train all the time. I don't really see what the big difference is ... forwarding is forwarding whether it is empty or full. Your moving cars to a location where it is needed. Alan>
>Jim

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"...I enjoy loading them up and setting a destination more than just using the 'create' button."
Me too. That's why I added the 'Loader' lines! There was a time long ago when there were only 'Unloader' lines...

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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