Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded

While Matt is busy developing his wonderful "Cootie Cars" ( Birney Safety Cars), I thought I'd let loose a predecossor "Off the Shelf" type of city or suburban car. Something I've been sitting on for several months, and thought I'd get it out to the traction-minded folks. It's a re-worked ( and better) version of my 2002 release of the PRL&P 1051-series, featuring new textures and details, longitudinal seats for those high-volume commuter runs, and two different trolley pole heights, 6.2 meters and 7.2 meters, ( Mesaba and NEC respectively).
Lots of new details, including Life-Guard fenders, switch-iron, controller handle, stem-wound brakes, new destination roll-signs, trolley poles, spoked wheels, and other neat stuff. It uses the same cabview and sound as the 1051, but comes with, so you don't need to alias or copy over.
Hope you all enjoy it.Cheers!Tim

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RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, msavianney, Aug-14-04, 08:53 PM, (1) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, tryagin, Aug-15-04, 01:27 PM, (2) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, Swissie, Aug-15-04, 03:03 PM, (3) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, wacampbell, Aug-15-04, 04:45 PM, (4) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, tryagin, Aug-15-04, 04:54 PM, (5) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, Hack, Aug-15-04, 05:40 PM, (6) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, wacampbell, Aug-15-04, 07:24 PM, (9) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, Hack, Aug-15-04, 05:42 PM, (7) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, tryagin, Aug-15-04, 07:04 PM, (8) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, Hack, Aug-15-04, 07:49 PM, (10) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, philmoberg, Aug-15-04, 08:34 PM, (11) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, mrmike, Aug-16-04, 06:53 PM, (15) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, philmoberg, Aug-16-04, 07:29 PM, (16) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, tryagin, Aug-15-04, 08:58 PM, (12) RE: Generic Brill Semi-Convertibles Uploaded, Hack, Aug-16-04, 02:32 AM, (13) RE: Street Railway Trackage, tryagin, Aug-16-04, 11:28 AM, (14) RE: Street Railway Trackage, asamtrak911, Aug-17-04, 04:59 PM, (17) RE: Street Railway Trackage, tryagin, Aug-17-04, 05:15 PM, (18) RE: Street Railway Trackage, philmoberg, Aug-17-04, 07:26 PM, (19) RE: Street Railway Trackage, CMO, Aug-17-04, 08:19 PM, (20) RE: Street Railway Trackage, philmoberg, Aug-19-04, 05:34 PM, (21) RE: Street Railway Trackage, CMO, Aug-19-04, 07:13 PM, (22) RE: Street Railway Trackage, philmoberg, Aug-19-04, 08:43 PM, (23) RE: Street Railway Trackage, pdaa, Aug-20-04, 05:12 PM, (24) RE: Street Railway Trackage, msavianney, Aug-20-04, 06:48 PM, (25)

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Tim,Magnificent effort, they are beautiful cars.As always, your attention to detail is terrific.Cheers,
Matt

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Thank you, Matt. It is mostly the result of experimenting with some ideas about using existing parts and modifying them by changing their points' positions and re-sizing. It's pretty amazing how you can create a new model from an old one. Once the basic shapes are in, you can manipulate them to any dimension and to any co-ordinate. Most of the details are "barrowed" from other models on "The Shop Floor", or from the parts bin.I am considering offering an assortment of parts for upload to the library, some with texture maps supplied, some without, if there is any interest. For instance, here is my model of a Crouse-Hinds Type Z incandescent Trolley Headlight from the Wanganui car for anyone who wants it:
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/411faa2f0f8c5c3b.zipThis comes with two small texture maps, which makes it a self-contained part ready to use on anybodies' models. I don't even require credit. Have fun!Tim

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For the curious: A sample of the Brill v2 under 7.2m wire:Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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Great looking cars Tim!Here's one in St. Thomas Municipal livery travelling along Talbot St. at the L&PS crossing.
Wayne
(MSTS models rendered with PovRay)

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Wayne, once again, I am at a loss for words, speechless. Except to say thanks for using my car in such a great picture! Tim

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Yet another inspirational picture, Wayne! Thanks a bunch! Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Thanks Marc. The real inspiration is Tim's fine work - I just clicked the shutter.Wayne

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Nice, nice, nice!...and the street car ain't bad either! Nice work, Tim! Hmmm...ScaleRail trolley track...Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Thanks, Marc, and keep thinking ScaleRail trolley track!
Tim

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>Thanks, Marc, and keep thinking ScaleRail trolley track! Will do! Being that I'm trolley illiterate, what would be an appropriate gauge? Should the turnouts be point or stub?Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Standard gauge (56.5") was typical of most systems. A significant exception was Pennsylvania, which generally opted for 62.5" gauge to prevent freight trains from using city streets. Los Angeles and Denver (IIRC) both had extensive 42" gauge mileage. That covers most of the biggiesPointwork typically depended on whether the trackage was in streets or on private right of way, as well as the preferences of the engineers charged with building or maintaining the system. Street trackage usually had single-point turnouts, with the point on the inside rail. There was a variant of this for trackage on private right of way, but double point turnouts were also used, particularly if freight cars or heavy interurbans were being handled. On the few systems that were still around when I was young, double-point switches were almost universal apart from street trackage.There were exceptions for everything. Those of us who remember the late, lamented Traction & Models magazine will remember the editor's "there's a prototype for everything" items, featured almost regularly. PM me if you're interested in more detailed sources. -Phil

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Hi Phil, I heard that the 62.5 gage track in some cities was used to accommodate horse drawn trolleys on private right of ways. Not sure if this is correct or not. Horse's would have no trouble on paved streets. My Computer specs are in my profile
Mike
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This Smile says it all"

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Thanks Mike,That's one I hadn't heard, although it's certainly plausible. There were other reasons for broad guage as well, one of which was an argument for better stability.One of the fascinating things about late-19th/early-20th Century street railways is the broad range of approaches to the same basic problem, before the industry was big enough and old enough to want to develop broadly-applicable standards. Funny that, about a century later, we're going throught the same thing with personal computers ... -Phil

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Well, standard gauge was pretty universal, but 42" gauge was used on some city lines in some major metro lines, like Los Angeles Ry; Portland, Or city lines, Denver city lines, to name a few. But I'd go with Standard.Switches would be point. I don't know if you would want to go the next level: Turnouts in the streets were the "Tounge and Mate" type. Basically this was a single point switch, with one moveable point, the "Tounge". The "Mate" was just a junction of the 2 rails. These ( and all street trackage ) had guardrail tracks:
Tim

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Looking at the above pic, it appears that the "rail" is more of a steel flangeway set in the street. Was this also typical of most street trackage?BTW, here's a pic I found recently while looking for other items:Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Looking at the above pic, it appears that the "rail" is more of a steel flangeway set in the street. Was this also typical of most street trackage?This was typical. But there were other types of track. There was sometimes used two "normal" rails spiked side-by-side. Straight track that didn't need guards had a flat lip over the flangeways, while curves or special-work required the used of "guardrails". Below is shown a scan of these three types. I apologize for the quality, the book is 90 years old, and I didn't want to flatten it too much for the scan.
Figure (c) shows what was typically used in street trackage.Your drawing of the turnout is a basic elevation. This was probably for tracks on private right-of-way, or just to illustrate the basic principal. But street turnouts would have the guardrail type (c). But also know that any sharp radii curves whether in the street or on private r-o-w always had a guard-rail of some sort on the inside rail(or even both rails on extreme curves where a grade is also present). In my observation of old photos over the years, private r-o-w, used a normal rail spiked alongside the running inside rail of sharp curves. This would be a nice feature to include. I have a route I had made a winding trolley line that goes up the side of a steep mountain, that uses 30 and 60 degree curves using Xtracks. It seems naked without the guardrails on such extreme grades and turns. Another thing, Marc. If you do consider making ScaleRail Streetrailway tracks, would it be asking too much to make the base texture a brick or cobblestone texture as in the above photo of the carhouse tracks? This of course would have to be level with the tops of the tracks. But then again, that might cause problems with transitional tracks from street to private ROW. I had developed sections of cobblestone in varying lengths to be placed over the tracks in the street to make this effect. Note the "guard-rails" textured in:
This would bear deveolpement. I didn't make any curved or turnout sections, as my math skills aren't very good. (If anyone wants to develope these objects for this, please PM me for the files).At any rate, I'm glad that you are considering streetrailway trackage. I hope to get back into modeling if my burnout ever dissapates. Tim

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It would be great to see a set of street-running tracks for ScaleRail. In my opinion the most important factor is having a variety of shapes that will allow some flexibility to lay various types of trackwork. The tram curves and turnouts in XTracks are good but don't work very well for double-track right of way. Some configurations require curved crossings as well. This catalog of track sections available in HO scale should help show what kinds of shapes are needed:And here's a photo I found that shows the cross-section of a prototype piece of girder rail.By the way, it would be best to have these pieces available not just with girder rail for street trackage, but also with regular rails and ties, since most streetcar lines still used sharp radii and single-point turnouts even when they weren't running in the street. And as Tim mentioned, sometimes regular guardrails were used as well.Alex Stroshane
http://www.trainweb.org/asamtrak911

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Alex, that's a good point. The need for double-track tram curves is acute. Xtracks, while a boon in the beginning, came up short in this regard, and made tracklaying difficult where double track curved around a street corner. Then there's the "Grand Unions" and other Special Work that is characteristic of street railways. Gosh, I hope we don't scare Marc off Tim

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... and then there was the tendency of at least some properties to use the same radius for the inside and outside tracks. The theory was that this compensated for the overhang of the car ends on the inside track...A good starting point would be a basic set of points and curves like Orr's line, or Tramalan's in Britain (http://www.modeltrams.co.uk/trackwork.htm). This would have the advantage of giving those willing to brave the vagaries of the RE something to work with, that would cover most of the likely prototypes ... and it would give Marc the space to develop the more unique shapes without a lot of pressure. -Phil

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Only three points:
1. The oldest street railway still running is New Orleans, and it is broadgauge. There used to be some evidence of standard gauge at the car barn, but when I looked this Spring, I could not find any. It was reputedly used to repair foreign cars from the Kenner interurban.
2. The Houston North Shore had difficulty using the Houston Electric girder tracks because the flanges on streetcars were not the same as on regular railroads, probably not as deep. So, some cars brought in by the HNS could not go onto the City tracks.
3. The newly laid light rail line in Houston looks like it has girder rail, but it does not. It uses regular T head railroad rail, with a rubber filler block along the flangeway. Why, I asked? Well, because it is considerably cheaper, was the answer.
Paul.

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New Orleans was a dual gauge system until late 1929, when the last of the standard gauge lines was converted to broad gauge. The OKT's last car ran about a year later. A very interesting website dealing with a large part of that story can be found here http://www-faculty.cs.uiuc.edu/~friedman/canal/Canal.htm.The dual gauge specialwork at Carrollton Station was, therefore, a remarkable survivor. At one time, Carrollton even had a dual gauge ("double gauge", as surviving NOPSI documents have it) ladder track on the inbound side of the facility. These last remnants were scrapped in the late-'80s or early-'90s as a part of the FTA funded overhaul of the St. Charles Line.This history had in unintended and unforeseen benefit many years later, when several of the Perley Thomas cars went into preservation. All newly-purchased cars from the 400 series up were designed to be converted to broad gauge, and the museums found it a relatively straightforward task to convert them back to standard gauge.Track built for the new Canal Line also uses T rail, probably because nobody in North America is rolling girder rail. This actually has some historic precedent in the modernisation efforts of a couple of large-city systems in the '30s. -Phil

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Interesting trivia, and explains why I used to see dual gauge at CArrolton.
NOw, New Orleans was again dual guage until a few years ago. The River line started out as standard gauge track, because it belonged to the NO Public Belt. The cars that ran on it were from Melbourne, I think.
A year or so ago, the River line was re-gauged to broad gauge, when they had enough newly built cars to run it. So, now the River line is connected to Canal Street, and thus to the Carrolton Barn.And what happened to the Melbourne cars? Well, I believe they are still at the West end of the River line, and covered up with tarps.
Paul.

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The Melbourne cars went to Memphis, where they're still in service. Last I heard heard, there were still a couple of unmodified Perleys at the old Napoleon Shop (450, ex-927 and 451, ex-919). These were cars that came back to New Orleans as a result of the BOSH (Bring Our Streetcars Home) group. IIRC, The trucks from one of these were loaned to STM for the operation of 966 in Lowell, MA. -Phil

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I know I've been away for a while and I still don't get too much time to work on things, but I made several points and curves for sharp radius curves and I hadn't got around to uploading them.I've just sent the sections for inclusion into the standard tsection.dat, so I should upload within a couple of days of seeing the next version issued (27)?The attached screenshot shows the general layouts possible in both single and double track format. Inner curve radius is 35m, outer is 40m.The 8 track curve is a combination of radii from 35m to 70m, and the complete assemble is compatible with the existing 60m radius curves available in Xtracks.You will need Xtracks to use these as some components are the same, i.e. textures and some sections needed are in Xtracks.Paul

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Yay!!!(the sound of someone who is just starting to build a tramway/interurban route)Thanks alot...Cheers,
Matt

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