Light Rail Signalling & Catenary

Hello everyone,While working on the Sub-Urban Light Rail Route I decided to ask a few questions for your opinions.SignallingI became concerned about the signalling.Would these do? Shown are the Home and Distant 'combination' signals of one system I put together, influenced by German and Finnish signalling.The lower target is about one meter wide, suitable for placement between the tracks.Or should it be a whole lot simpler? Say for example two of 3-light heads in all signals, top head being the home signal and the bottom head being the distant. Green would mean straight path, yellow diverging path, and red means stop. Distant would just simply show the very same aspect as the next signal down the line -- green-over-red being "Approach".If someone knows a better system, please post a link to signal aspects.CatenaryI would like to have modern steel/aluminum catenary poles for the route. I like the wooden ones that have appeared in the library, but they are not quite for this route. I couldn't find suitable gantries, but there was a photo of one that I liked in the April 2004 Trains magazine (I forgot the page number, sorry).I am a lazy modeler and not satisfied in what I have produced.LRV'sI like the Melbourne B2 Class trams. Period. Those painted in MCT colors are nice, but I need doors on both sides (don't care if they do not open). I would want two-car and four-car trains, though...Again, I'm a lazy modeler...With ot Without XTRACKSLast chance: would you like it with or without Xtracks?Other stuffAlso, I ran into a sort of a problem when running an activity with Melbourne B2 Class trams on a test route. All the traffic trains/trams ran at very slow speeds along the main line, but they literally speeded through all interlockings. I'm still wondering why. Anyone else had this problem?
Northern Greetings from
TVRail
President & CEO, Dakota Eastern Railroad
Member of Yonder Locomotive Works

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RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, Swissie, Apr-13-04, 06:40 PM, (1) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, dvdhoven, Apr-14-04, 01:28 AM, (2) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, Swissie, Apr-14-04, 04:56 PM, (3) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, tvrail, Apr-20-04, 09:41 AM, (4) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, sam, Jul-15-04, 06:52 PM, (5) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, Magick_maker, Aug-03-04, 11:52 PM, (6) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, Swissie, Aug-04-04, 03:46 AM, (7) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, sam, Aug-04-04, 10:17 PM, (8) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, Swissie, Aug-05-04, 04:10 AM, (9) RE: Light Rail Signalling & Catenary, dvdhoven, Aug-05-04, 08:35 AM, (10)

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Hi TVRail,1) Signals look good to me for a modern system (not too unfamiliar to the local Swiss system, either...). If you go for a very basic, simple and almost fool proof system, you may want to consider using the default US2 Signals from the default Marias Pass - often disrespectfully called "ugly" but in my eyes quite ideal candidates for a light rail system (with the permissive signal doubling as approach signal). Their sigscr.dat and sigcfg.dat is almost foolproof, and I've used it on a trolley/interurban section without the slightest problems, even in dense traffic when handling up to 12 AI trolleys correctly within an activity at one time.2) Catenary: Otto posted a useful link to a french site which has modern catenaries of various European style layouts with and without wires attached to it. The ones with wire are especially useful if you wanted to model a route on which some mainline tracks are dieselized, and only the trolley tracks needed wires. I have the link on the other PC (currently on the laptop) and will post it tomorrow, unless Otto fills me in here.3) LRV's: Check out the-train.de, and other trolley related websites. There is quite a number of modern style trolleys around. From the-train.de I remember downloading an excellent model of the Karlsruhe Stadtbahn bi-directional articulated sets (already one and a half years old, but still one of the finest modern trolley models around).4) Definitely xtracks. You are up to much fewer problems than when using dyntrack. And you need a lot of non-default track on a trolley system, given the typically tight curves, complicated switch layouts - or do you want to build a double-track "diamond" (two trolley routes crossing each other with 90° cross-overs, and turn-offs to the left and right from each branch) with standard track sections and dyntrack? Good luck... (1st btw: even with xtracks, you need to do some compromises with that double-track diamond, but it's at least possible to do one. 2nd btw: so many routes that are keepers use xtracks that I'd guess 95% of the population here has it installed).5) Yes, I know, you didn't ask: Use newroads also, for default road sections make for lousy inner city roads. Especially when you plan to have sections of your trolleys running in the street. Just make sure to get newroads without shadows, not the version with dynamic shadows on the road bed or you will not be able to place track under the asphalt without the ballast and ties shinging through the road. Just my 2c...Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-04 AT 01:40 AM (EDT)

>Hi TVRail,
>
>
>2) Catenary: Otto posted a useful link to a french site
>which has modern catenaries of various European style
>layouts with and without wires attached to it. The ones with
>wire are especially useful if you wanted to model a route on
>which some mainline tracks are dieselized, and only the
>trolley tracks needed wires. I have the link on the other PC
>(currently on the laptop) and will post it tomorrow, unless
>Otto fills me in here.
>
To put a little thing straight, it was me, who posted that link, not Otto. I know Otto does many many things...And here is that link again:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mr_train_sim/
Choose caténaire in the left hand menu.For the vehicles, you can use the B80, used in several cities througout the Ruhrgebied and Köln/Bonn in Germany.
See this links for light rail vehicles and see the links, this sites provide:
http://v078073.dd2218.kasserver.com/phpkit/include.php?path=start.php
http://www.graphics15.de/Graphics15 has done a great job with the B80, it comes complete with sound and cab. Choose U79 on the website.About the signals. IMHO, your signals are too complicated. Many modern companies use a combination of distant and home signals in one head. So a signal is both distant signal and home signal. Swissie has already mentioned the signals at Marias Pass. The Dutch Railroad Company uses a simular signal type for about 50 (!!) years.I think that Xtracks offer many advantages, so go for it. Better and realistic switches and realistic track.Good luck.Dick van den Hoven

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Hi Dick,> To put a little thing straight, it was me, who posted that link, not Otto. I know Otto does many many things...Sorry 'bout that And thanks again for the digging out the link(s) so promptly. Kind regardsLukas a.k.a Swissie

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Thank you for the comments. Here are my replies:Signalling:
the signals shown are not complicated from the srcipting point-of-view. As a matter a fact, the signals you see are one solid piece inside the script.I would be interested in further "combination". Give me some useful links that will show real light-rail signal aspects and indications.Catenary:
Definitely I will go for these.New Roads:
Sorry, guys, but I think I will stick to the default roads, perhaps upgrading on the longer run. Currently I have no use for the New Roads on other routes I'm working on (editing tsection.dat with RRiter to match the contents of Global folder, I know, but still...)
Cheers,

Northern Greetings from
TVRail
President & CEO, Dakota Eastern Railroad
Member of Yonder Locomotive Works

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LRV TrainsThe Modern City Trams can be modified with doors on both sides if you turn the middle car 180 degrees in the Consist editor so you have a consist as follows:
1st Car-Doors on Right
2nd Car-Flipped the car so you can have doors on Left
3rd car-Doors on right
(This is for just a 3 Car train)
Just a suggestion!!
Bobby Cosgrove

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I'm sleepy, so this may read vauge, but, let me add my two pence here.
Speaking from a historical point of view, Light Rail systems didn't always have signals. In fact, many operated on a so called "line of sight" or "on sight" system where the motormen maintained a distance by simply keeping an eye out for other trains.To a degree, this is still done to day in street systems, an example being the San Diego trolley system. This system, uses signals when the trains are outside the city, and when in the streets, they use a system where the operator monitors the track ahead visually.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-04 AT 03:53 AM (EST)

> "line of sight"Unfortunately, the eye sight of HAL9000 - the AI motorman - leaves some room for improvement, so this system does not work in MSTS when you want to have AI traffic.Probably the only way to do it would be to burry signals underground in areas where one wanted to simulate line of sight operations, as on a "dark" (unsignalled) route, AI trains simply either won't run as long as one single switch anywhere in there path is not open to them, or will simply crash into each other or into the player when all the switches are open in their path... On the other hand, burried signals are quite a pain for the player, as he has to watch the track monitor permanently and very accurately. Otherwise that red light 5m under the pavement is overrun in the blink of an eye, activity ended...The alternative is to go the way the "Stadtbahn U79" route over at the-train.de uses. Its signals are mounted to the traffic lights for the cars, at the various road intersections along the route. This kind of trolley signals, which in prototypical live do not space trolleys from each other, but simply act as dedicated signals for trolleys at traffic lights are very common on any "line of sight" urban tramway system on the European side of the Atlantic ocean. The reason for these dedicated signals is that trolleys often have right-of-way at road intersections, so while the traffic lights will show red for the cars either way, the trolley signal might well be open. Similarily, trolleys with the steel wheels on steel rails physics have different braking parameters, so their signal will have to turn yellow 2-3secs before the light for the cars changes to yellow, too. Finally, to avoid accidents by confused motorists, the indications the trolley traffic lights use are not red/yellow/green. Typical indications:
Horizontal bar: "red"
Vertical bar: "green"
Flashing horizontal bar/vertical bar/triangle: "yellow"
Dark / flashing yellow light: "Traffic light unserviceable"
That's the common way how these signals are used, this time in a shot from Stuttgart. I had to dig deep to find a picture showing the signals clearly, I usually tend to avoid cluttering the image with traffic lights On some portions of the U79, the same signals are also used as block signals for the track...
Here's actually a shot from U79 ^- the real thing - in which the signalling of the "overland" portion of the route with the "traffic light type" of signals is visible.I am pretty certain some North American systems also have something similar. I would not be surprised to find this type of signals also somewhere in San Diego, as most of the system is using basically that same LRT technology as said Stadtbahn U79.Lukas a.k.a Swissie
Edited for captions

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>I am pretty certain some North American systems also have
>something similar. I would not be surprised to find this
>type of signals also somewhere in San Diego, as most of the
>system is using basically that same LRT technology as said
>Stadtbahn U79.
Our RTD Route in Denver, Colorado uses the bar signals.
Bobby Cosgrove

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Thanks for the confirming statement, Bobby. These bar signals seem to be quite universal indeed, I've seen them even in former East Block countries, too.Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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But not in the Netherlands. he, he. In the Netherlands a universal signal is used for both bus and tramways, called negenoog. (Translated nine eye)I have done a search on the web and found some photo's.
These photo's are copyrighted by http://home.hetnet.nl/~a.nizet/The light has the possibility to show 9 lamps, but most of the time, some are covered and not used.
In this picture tram or bus has to stop.
In this picture the tram or bus is allowed to pass if it want to go straight.
Prepare to stop; same as yellow for normal traffic
In this picture tram or bus is allowed to continue if it goes to the right.
In the same way, the light can be configured for traffic going to the left, etc.Dick van den Hoven

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