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MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

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Reading Topic #427

Member since Sep-27-02 · 836 posts

Good evening traction friends,Finally: Trolley and Interurban cars arrive and roll into town. Fresh from the paint shed! MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 1
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 2I shot a sneaky-peeky-screeny or two while instruction and training of Wattmen began, assembling almost all types of cars in the two carbarns / carsheds of the route.MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 3
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 4After so many countless hours on the route, I needed a little break and decided it was about time the interurban and trolley routes of the Valley Transit Lines received their eagerly awaited (pre-owned ) rolling stock. So it was time to take out the olde spraycan and play around a bit. MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 5
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 6A few general remarks: As far as the route is concerned, I am still working hard at the final details. The to-do list is finally down to one page A4 (roughly letter format for those more familiar with North American standard norms). Basically the MtE is now complete - mmh, I like that sound, c-o-m-p-l-e-t-e, and some feedback from beta users is already flowing. I've started scripting the first activities, with 9 done so far, 5 of which tested and ironed out, four still needing more tuning to assure proper functioning. Another 5-8 are in the stage of a vague idea. While repeatedly running up and down the slopes while testing, I keep detecting things that need attention. Such as where to improve the signalling and the signal scripts, where to link a switchlamp I forgot, where to adjust the terrain under a floating road, where to move a building, change the timing of a grade crossing, correct a typo in a platform name, etc. etc.The most severe problem that remains is - short excurse into route builders Latin - that I still have to improve framerates on two or three of the densly populated tiles. I've detailed out the most frame-rate hungry buildings so that running the sim with your detail sliders lowered to 9 or 8 should still give you 95% of the scenery, just without the two or three structures that have a high poly count. In most places this helps to boost the framerate on low end machines without loosing a lot of detail. But the urban tiles have another problem, namely that they use a deadly combination: first a lot of vdbid's (viewing "spheres" if you want), combined with a high number of manually instead of automatically placed poles/gantries which the RE considers static scenery objects, assigning them to a specific vdbid instead of the general default vdbid - and that seems to mean a lot of unnecessary computing. So looks like I have to dig into those .w files to do some manual editing... MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 7
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 8But now for the trolley stock, as promised. As you remember, the main purpose of the MountE mainline is to give the NEC wire juicers some more room to roam. Now there are not too many trolleys/interurbans around that match that wire height. 6.2 is the standard (Mesaba Electric), and some stock even goes under the 5.4 wires of the Tokyo Hakone route. While I am confident that some more models will soon be made available with different shapes for diffeernt wire heights, I decided on using and - carefully - adapting some 6.2 metre stock for the interurban. To match them to the wires while hoping/waiting for shapes with 7 metre poles I decided to try scaling some of the cars - call it artistic freedom as we are talking a ficticious route here - and at least as far as my opinion is concerned, at least in one case the results were better than I had expected. In any acse, my primary goal is that the dimensions of all the Valley Transit stock matches among itself, with the Jewetts serving as my reference. Where models would be released in a scaled version, I plan to always include the orignal (unscaled) version of the shape file, with matching .sd and .eng file, so that users could always revert to the original shapeor use the car under 6.2 metre wires, too.Now: Meet the ValleyT Cars
--------------------------The Valley Transit Lines is my ficticious little entreprise running the urban and interurban services on the Mountain Electric turf (remember: The MtE mainline is a different kind of animal, with its P-Motors and MP54's). To add some variety, I decided the system would use trolley poles in the urban area, while the interurban route is already using pantographs for a while. Such combined systems exist(ed) - think of San Francisco where F-Street PCC's use trolleys, while the modern stock uses Faively pans - they just need elaborate aerial switches over the points. With MSTS's ugly catenary, forget 'bout them aerial switches in the sim...MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 9
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 10Anyway, this dualism will give you quite a collection of cars to choose from... This is the roster:Series 200: Brill Semi's, ca. 1900
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MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 12Lets assume the backbone of the early Valley Transit Lines was the ubiquous Brill Semi's built in the early 1900s. Only a few of the original batch of 24 cars have survived into the days of MSTS, either in the form of the heritage car 204 in the original 1900s livery (two shades of green, golden trim lines), or in the form of back-up cars doing occasional supplemnts or substituting for more modern equipment needing repairs. MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 13 MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 14
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 15 The ValleyT calls this family of cars the Series 200, and you'll be able to enjoy them in three liveries: 1900's heritage, 1920's dark green with speedlines, 1950s green & cream. For those screenies, I used shapes scaled by 12% in height and length, but that leads to a more distorition on the car body that I actually like. I'll initially include the original, i.e. unscaled shapes for 6.2 metre wires, but maybe, if I can talk Tim Muir into doing a 7 metre version with just its pole rotated to reach the heigher wire...Series 300: Jewett Interurbans, ca. 1915
----------------------------------------MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 16
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 17The next batch of cars is based on Wayne Campbells L&PS Jewett interurban No.2. Actually, he generously ok'ed me using the shape file of his improved v2 (is this a sign of its upcoming release?) which does feature an interior, comes with a wattman inserted via the freightanimation line, and corrects a small bug with one of the rear windshield wipers travelling along about 2 metres to the left of the car... The Valley T has five Jewetts in passenger configuration that are the workhorses for the main section of the interurban. With Wayne's consent, I switched the pantographs in use by activating the rear pantograph instead of the front unit on some of the shapes, so that you have a little variety here, too. Alpha-ing out the interior, his car also makes for a terrific boxmotor. No wonder the ValleyT bought three of them, two early ones with wooden bodies, and a later addition with steel body. You may notice that the wooden body boxmotors only have one pantograph. Well, this little modification is also ok'ed by Wayne who informed me that one of the L&PS boxmotors actually also lost one of its pantographs in an accident and ended its career resembling my ficticous ValleyT 361 quite a bit (Btw: the shape file still calls for both pantographs, the permanently lowered unit is simply hidden inside the car ). MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 18 MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 19
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 20 MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 21So the ValleyT Series 300 comes in many variants: Passenger motors in dark green with speedline, front & rear pan, passenger motors in green&cream, front and rear pan, boxmotor wooden body, green with speedline and green&cream, one pan, boxmotor with steel body, only in green&cream, two pans... Series 400: Niles trolley and light interurbans, ca. 1924 (pre-owned)
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MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 23Back to Tim's models. His ficticious Williamtte Valley 2100 inspired me to add 6 units of this light interurban motors - modified with pantographs from trolley pole operated urban trolleys - to the roster. The ValleyT uses them running light (solo) on the two short branches of the interurban, and in MU on the main section of the inetrurban when one of the Jewetts is unserviceable. The model is scaled ca. 12% both in length and height, but personally I have the feeling that this didn't hurt the fine car too much. Actually, when compared to the Jewetts before, the 400s looked a bit "low to the ground", and a 7 metre pan would probably look disproportionately high when added to the original model (Tim once mentioned testing such a variant, I'd personally prefer the slightly higher car body, but that is a matter of taste, I assume).Tim's and the PCCC's trolley equipped Mesaba Electric No.10 - basically the same model - inspired me to create a slightly scaled version of the Series 400 with trolley poles, to, assigning them to the urban part of the network. MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 24 MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 25
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 26 MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 27So the ValleyT now owns 12 individually numbered Niles cars now, 6 with trolley poles, 6 with pans, both version available in both 1920s green with speedlines and 1940s green&cream. (mental note: adjust that "moustache" on the front of some of the cars to better align with the headlights).Series 500: Not yet delivered
-----------------------------(Guess for which type the numbers are reserved for)Series 600: The PCC's circa 1940s
---------------------------------MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 28
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 29
I have decided to finish off the round of purchasing some rolling stock for my little venture here with some state of the art PCC's, shiny new from the factory (well, back then). OK, Matt Harters' model unfortunately goes under 5.4 metre wires. And although the prototypical PCC's were definitely lower than older traction stock from the early 1900s, the unscaled models look really small when compared to the Jewetts - also in terms of width... So I again committed the crime of running the PCC's through Shape File Manager. I'd say boosting the original shape by 8-10% in all three dimensions should make them match the other ValleyT stock right on, without having their wheels leave the gauge of the rails, or their shapes benig distorted at all. Unfortunately, that still has the cars barely reach the 6.2 metre wires. That is about the maximum I would like to go with messing with the shape, as adding the additional height and length needed to reach the 7 metre wires makes the PCC's look wrong, namely too tall. Sorry, the screenies here are of such a distorted version, I do not intend to release them that much distorted as they are now, but will try hard to offer you a better solution before the cars will be released. E-mails will go out soon MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 30 MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 31
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 32 MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 33I have prepared skins for four models though: The first PCC ordered by the ValleyT was an early model with standee windows, and thus has been the final car delivered in the dark green scheme with speedline. Due to financial constraints, the management could only order one follow-up car, which received a unique adaption of the then newly introduced green&cream scheme. Finally, the system managed to gobble-up two former Kansas City cars with large windows. They are the only cars to wear the latest colors that include a light green trim... Btw: All four repaints are based on skins Frederick Dreany originally created for his fine Toronto Transit PCC repaints.Uff! That much for the moment. Now it is time to get back to ironing out the route, and continue with the activities.
*** reaches for to-do list ***Kind regards!Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), tryagin, Feb-04-04, 03:05 PM, (1) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), pacmancreator, Feb-04-04, 03:25 PM, (2) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), dvdhoven, Feb-05-04, 12:06 PM, (3) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), wacampbell, Feb-05-04, 12:18 PM, (4) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), ivanfurlanis, Feb-05-04, 04:13 PM, (5) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), Swissie, Feb-05-04, 05:30 PM, (6) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), wacampbell, Feb-05-04, 06:01 PM, (7) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), Swissie, Feb-06-04, 08:39 AM, (8) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), dvdhoven, Feb-06-04, 12:14 PM, (9) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), Swissie, Feb-07-04, 03:57 AM, (10) RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning), dvdhoven, Feb-08-04, 02:02 AM, (11)

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Charter Member · 1538 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

Holy sweet mother of.... Lukas, those cars look great! I especially like the Green and Cream combination. I detect some Pacific Electric influence with the "Speed Stripe" versions. Really looks "believable", and authentic. But you really need to have some dedicated 7.2 meter stock, don't you? I'll see about fixing you up with a couple adjustipated cars for the ME. Just might be a little while....you understand.I like what you did to the Brills. They are nicely done, and congratulations on deciphering that wacky texture mapping! And Wayne's L&PS stock looks very enticing in the green and cream, which really brings out their lines. Same with the WVR stock. It all looks good. Maybe you can ask Matt to make you a 7.2 meter PCC....Excellent!Timtimmuir@wcn.net

Street and Interurban Electric Railway Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

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Member since Jul-23-02 · 1275 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 34

In between the Surfliner, the Sumpter Valley, the CalTrain route, and now some new screens of the Mt. E, I think that this will be a pretty good year for train simming.-Yeah, that's right! The Raider Marching Pride!!! -You can never have too much inner beauty. Or socks.
-Matt, 3:25am-Why are we here, and what is our purpose? That, my friends, is the everlasting eternal question. That, and, where's the Honeycomb Hideout?-Crime: It's my anti drug -Creating Pac-Man comics for the humorless people out there

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Charter Member · 2343 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 35

Hi,Wow, Lukas what a thrilling story! Great. Just like a real railroad history. Great what you has achieved so far. I am looking forward to this route.The liveries are very attractive! I like the green/cream the most.Again, to me, you have done an outstanding job.Dick van den HovenMountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 36

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Member since Jun-30-02 · 238 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-04 AT 12:18 PM (EST)

It is great to see what you are doing with this route. I love the proto-possible repaints and your route's storyline adds a lot to the enjoyment of following your progress. I'm looking forward to your next update.Wayne

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Member since Jun-16-03 · 8 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

A very very great work. The route and the trolleys are simply fantastic. Why not to post a map of the route?Ivan Furlanis

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Member since Sep-27-02 · 836 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

Thanks guys for all the kind remarks!*** blushes - but also smiles a bit ***Just for a little illustration why some moderate scaling might not be the worst of ideas: This is what the car sizes compare to each other with the original shape (and texture) files:MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 37
7.2 metre L&PS stock plus 6.2 metre Mesaba 10 plus 5.4 metre Toronto PCC@ Tim: I'd say if the 400s stayed slightly scaled - to no more than a little bit under the height of the L&PS motors - and if the PCC's were about increased to the dimensions of the Mesaba 10 in the screeny above, then proportions should look about right to my laymen's eyes? Or am I totally off with that guestimate?@ Ivan: The map is simply not done yet, and neither are the loading screens etc. But in case you overlooked it in the two or three earlier posts re the Mountain Electric (all in this forum): It's basically nuthin' but a revamped - ok, substantially revamped - version of the default Europe 2, with the interurban line, and a couple of industries, yards, branches etc. added in. All together bringing the default track length from 63 miles in said default valley to around 100 miles.@ Wayne, Tim, and Dick: It is surprisingly simple, that green and cream scheme, but sometimes the plain, simple approaches are quite rewarding, aren't they? And after all, it was you, Dick, that talked about a green and cream livery when I did the 6.2 metre STS interurbans about 8 or so monthes ago. So you see, I did keep that in mind, but had a different idea...Anyways: Thanks for the "believable looks" compliment - after all, color combinations like the one used here was not uncommon and looks about as believable to my European-trained eyes (I think of the trolleys in the cities of Geneva, Berne, Torino, Helsinki, possibly even Paris where I'm not sure weather the green and cream still made it onto the trolleys before the system shut down, or only to the busses of the period). So I had some "inspiration" from real sources which I can easily reveal - apart from the PE for the speedlines as Tim correctly detected...MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 38
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 39
Here's the inspiration for the heritage scheme on Brill 204 (Basel Motor 4 of 1900, rebuilt anno 1970 on original underframe, with Breezer trailer 281 from 1902, both currently stored in one of the barns until the next anniversary of the system comes around)...MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 40
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 41
...the green & cream of Geneva on historic motor 125 while operating on the route of a regional RR museum (the car has returned to the city's trolley tracks since)...MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 42
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 43
...or Berne (heritage motor 171 from 1941 if I remember correctly, with matching trailer).MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 44
MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 45
If I were to stay closer to the prototype in & around Innsbruck (the name of Bridgeport in the default Europe2 Orient Express setting), I would rather have had to opt for a red & white livery: Heritage motor 3 with two trailers dating back to the steam period, usually to be found in daily revenue service as one of two trains assuring services on the scenic interurban route #6 during the summer months.Just teasing the curious around here Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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Member since Jun-30-02 · 238 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

I suspect the size differences you see are correct. The L&PS cars are definitely BIG - 61' ( 18.6m ) long and 13'6 ( 4.2m ) high. I think that little red Innsbrook train could almost fit inside the L&PS car - trailers and all!The NEC wire hieght was an easy decision for me. The prototype L&PS ran with a 23' (7m) nominal wire height which actually matches the NEC 7.2m perfectly (MSTS incorrectly measures wire hieght from the top of the ties). There are a couple of places where the L&PS crosses municipal trolly lines and the L&PS catenary has to drop way down to a 16' or 17' height at the crossover - the pans are almost compressed flat!Wayne

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Member since Sep-27-02 · 836 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-04 AT 08:58 AM (EST)

Hello Wayne,thanks for the input> I think that little red Innsbrook train could almost fit inside the L&PS car - trailers and all!I'd rather agree. Apart from those trailers being ultra small, the whole thing is also NG, running on 1 metre tracks. But I like that they decided against shutting down said interurban ca. 2 years ago - after severe protest from locals and the tourism industry! - and went the other way, trying to boost ridership by assigning their working heritage cars to selected scheduled services. I for my part was quick to honor that effort (Innsbruck is only a 4 1/2 hour train ride away from home, with ca. 4-5 through services a day.)> I suspect the size differences you see are correct. certainly, knowing the high reputation of the builders of the shapes. The L&PS cars' dimensions ressemble those of mainline equipment rather than trolley equipment, which is reflected by the 18 metre length. That's almost the length of a modern day articulated trolley car back here, which has a 23 metre body (two body parts, six axles)...I found the following dimensions for a Philadelphia PCC via the net:Length: 46" 8 1/8' (ca. 14.25 metres)
Width: 8" 5 3/8' (ca. 2.67 metres)And using the settings from an .sd file including body and couplers, Mikes PCC originally comes out atLength: 14.34 metres
Width: 2.73 metresso it is very accurate indeed, admitted. Which is a reason why I tend to be carefull myself about releasing any scaled versions - some compromise between MSTS's limits, believable appearance of the entire fleet, and realism is what I need (and want) to balance out. The fact that there also seem to be some differences in scale of scenery items doesn't make it easier, either. Anyhow, at the end of the refining process, I would love to keep the diverse fleet depicted above, but if some shapes simply would have to be distorted, mangled, or stretched to more than a few percent either direction, I would rather decide to leave them entirely out. The self-imposed borderline is 10%, thus staying within the tolerances where the human eye tends to overlook small distoritions, judging from experience in the media business.I still have to address the issue of wire height vs car size, and possible approaches to overcome them (such as alpaeing out the original pole and inserting a "replacement" 7 metre trolley via the freight animation line?). Right now I'm hunting frame rate killers on the world tiles, and I'm starting to see improvements! The extra effort is worth it Cheers,Lukas a.k.a Swissie
Edited for the odd typo

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Charter Member · 2343 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 46

Hi, Lukas, thanks for mentioning me about the green/cream livery! Yes, indeed, for decades for me the most attractive livery for an interurban is green/cream.
Here in the Netherlands was at least one electrified interurban that had that livery but it was already when I was born in 1950.
But I have seen the livery in Switzerland and I love it.Nice photos of Bern, Geneva and Innsbruck. Those were the days...Good luck with route and rolling stock building. And let the stories come. I am fond of them.
Thanks a lot for all your contributions.Dick van den HovenMountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 47

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Member since Sep-27-02 · 836 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-04 AT 04:00 AM (EST)

Hi Dick> Those were the days (...)Actually, these are still the days. All pictures above were shot inbetween 1995 (centenary of Basel's trolleys) and 2002 (weekend trip to Innsbruck). Of course it takes some luck to coordinate the occasions when heritage cars are running, the matching weather favors photography, and your own schedule allows for a day off (as always).Thanks for the kind remarks. I'll keep you informed, I promise. It's all the details and ironing out that is so time-consuming at this stage: For example, I spent 2 1/2 hours last night just to figure out and test one single AI path I need for the AI trolley traffic in the "downtown" area. The problem is that I wanted one path covering most of the branches, without having the path crossing over itself at an unprotected cross-over (unfortunantely, there are no dedicated cross-over track pieces for the 30 metre trolley curves yet, so I had to "cheat" by placing the curve across the oncoming straight track, meaning I can't use signals to protect that "false crossover" MSTS is unaware of - until trolleys run into each other).MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 48
After all, with the four branches and a 15 minute intervall, the player should be bound to see some traffic in those streets...But I think all that time that now goes into the project is worth the effort, after all. Having to deliver a gazillion of updates and corrections after release is no less time-consuming, and worse for the reputation Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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Charter Member · 2343 posts

RE: MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning)

MountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 49

Hi,Lukas, take your time! It looks promising and I will wait patiently.And about those were the days; yes I know that there are still historical cars running.
But when you have seen and experienced those cars in real life, this historical runs has always something artificial.
I remember the Innsbruck 4 axle cars from visits in 1976 and 1977; the 2 axle cars from Basel from a visit in 1974 and so on.Thanks a lot again.Dick van den HovenMountE: New Cars on the Block (56k Warning) – image 50

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