Trolley poles

With the plethora (what does that mean ?) of marvellous new traction units coming in, has anyone ever thought about having trolley-poles move up and down as pantographs can do ? Also is there any possibility that trolley-poles could be linked to the trucks so that they turn on corners ?In MSTS probably not.Eric in UK

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: Trolley poles, linkj, Nov-28-03, 10:03 AM, (1) RE: Trolley poles, tryagin, Nov-28-03, 11:57 AM, (2) RE: Trolley poles, tryagin, Nov-28-03, 12:56 PM, (3) RE: Trolley poles, davidbeach, Nov-28-03, 02:47 PM, (4) RE: Trolley poles, tryagin, Nov-28-03, 05:46 PM, (8) RE: Trolley poles, wacampbell, Nov-28-03, 02:49 PM, (5) RE: Trolley poles, tryagin, Nov-28-03, 05:28 PM, (6) RE: Trolley poles, Eric in UK, Nov-28-03, 05:30 PM, (7) RE: Trolley poles, tryagin, Nov-28-03, 05:49 PM, (9) RE: Trolley poles, smallspy, Nov-29-03, 01:26 AM, (10) RE: Trolley poles, Eric in UK, Nov-29-03, 04:29 AM, (11) RE: Trolley poles, Tim Frost, Nov-29-03, 05:09 AM, (12) RE: Trolley poles, ccyko, Nov-30-03, 01:15 AM, (13) RE: Trolley poles, pdaa, Nov-30-03, 11:58 AM, (14) RE: Trolley poles, Eric in UK, Dec-01-03, 06:28 AM, (15) RE: Trolley poles, Tim Frost, Dec-01-03, 08:45 AM, (16) RE: Trolley poles, sparkie101, Dec-01-03, 09:37 PM, (17) RE: Trolley poles, tryagin, Dec-02-03, 01:20 AM, (18) RE: Trolley poles, sparkie101, Dec-02-03, 10:24 AM, (19)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Eric--MSTS allows you to do both. The up-down movement is a simple rotation animation (with the P key as movement trigger) and the pivoting can be done by making the trolley pole object subordinate to the bogie, which pivots. Problem becomes doing more than one pole...MSTS only gives animated control of one pantagraph or pole. The other would be continuous up-down as the unit rolls along.Aloha, Jeff Link
Island Electric - West

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Having the poles parented to Bogie2 to allow the pole to follow the wire works - to a point. The problem is, not all trolley poles are mounted directly over the bogie. Actually most aren't. What happens is, the swivel, or pivot point of the pole is in direct relation to the bogie, which means, on curves, the whole trolley pole part, base and all, swings out from the roof line.


I am hoping that someone comes up with a fix to this little annoyance. It is especially noticeable on cars with single poles, mounted directly in the center. I wonder if it would be better to not have them articulated at all in this case.As far as animating poles, I see no reason to. Other than starting your activity from outside the car and watching the pole being wired, it seems alot of trouble for a minor effect. But that is my opinion, such as it is.Hi Jeff!Timtimmuir@wcn.net

Electric Railroad 3D Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3fc77e7e42307c63.jpg

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I forgot the other problems with parenting poles to bogies: Sparking wheels/shoes. The spark doesn't move. It's stationary in relation to the car. So, on curves the spark appears over the centerline of the car, not on the wire.Then, on some curvatures of track, the pole does not swing enough, and the following effect is observed:

I notice this on shallow curvature as well as the sharp 30dg Xtracks. It is in direct proprtion to the offset in the trolley pivot and the bogies pivot. Observe the Oregon Electric Jewett below. The trolley pivot is almost directly in line with the bogie's, so there is almost perfect wire-tracking, and barely noticeable swing of the base:
So, what do we learn from this? That there are limits to what we can accomplish with the sim as it is now. Well, we all know this already. About the only thing that can fix the trolley-pole wire-tracking problem is make the poles pivot directly over the bogie axis. This has been done with model traction equipment in the past to improve the wire tracking in HO, O and other scale trolleys, for different, but related reasons. But we sacrifice protoypical car design when we do this, just as we did in scale-modeling. It's a case of what we want vs. what we get. I prefer to keep it as it is for now, live with the swing of high-offset trolleys, until the fix is discovered. As for single, center-of-the-car mounted poles......hmmm. Timtimmuir@wcn.net

Electric Railroad 3D Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Could you make an invisible truck (bogie) who's axis is directly below the trolley pole axis? Invisible truck would do the pivoting and the pole would pivot as required.David Beach.Palouse & Lewiston

Standardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build00021.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

David, due to a bug in MSTS, third bogies don't swivel. Too bad, because it really upsets alot of different applications a 3rd bogie could be used for. Timtimmuir@wcn.net

Electric Railroad 3D Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ahhh, the joy of pantographs - life is so much simpler Wayne

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hahahahahahah!!! Yah, once you get the model (pan) built, that is! They follow the wire no matter where it goes! Timtimmuir@wcn.net

Electric Railroad 3D Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest here, but it is great to know that something can, or could, be done to make a pole swivel with a bogie. An invisible bogie below the pole pivot point sounds a possibility.I am not into 3D modelling, so I am dependent upon the work of those who make the marvellous traction models. However I am reluctant to use "fixed" trolley poles, so I have stayed with pantograph equipped trams and interurbans, but would happily diversify into cars fitted with poles, if the download stated that the pole pivots.Thanks to everyone for the info.Eric in UK

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Naw, no hornets here! Just lively traction chatter! I think it is not asking too much to state that poles swivel in the File_ID.dizzes in future. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for your input Erik.TimTimtimmuir@wcn.net

Electric Railroad 3D Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I realize that this may be too much work for little gain, or a case of the answer to a question that nobody asked, but how about this...Instead of requiring that the pole be part of the car, why not make it a separate car altogther? This could potentially take care of two problems at one...the pole base swinging out on cars where it's not centered on the rear truck, and (by having several different poles) the possiblility of having 1 "car" with several different height poles to "fit" on many (or even all) routes instead of just those with a particular-height wire setting.I dunno, maybe I'm just off my rocker today...DanMaking a mockery of serious business for 23 years.

www.greatlakesrail.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

It looks as if I've started something here. In my ignorance, I'll just look out for developments, but I have two more ( final ? )thoughts.If pantographs and trolley-poles can be raised and lowered, when lowered could they be set at a lower wire height, rather than closed down ? e.g. lowered at 5.4 m and raised at 6m or 6.2m.I have used cars with animated doors ( sliding and folding )operated by the "P" key, sometimes with the pantograph, sometimes not. Are there other keys which could be used for animation ? In steam engines, "F" is used for firebox doors and there may be others. If so, could other animations be added to give pantograph/pole, doors, turn indicators and maybe even destination board changes ?Eric in UK

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 05:26 AM (EST)

I believe F, like V, can only be used on the players locomotive. Additionally F can only be used on steam, as P can only be used on electric.Also, you could easily have the lowered position set for a lower wire height, like 5.4m down vs 6m up, but if the 'pantograph' or trolley pole is down, the train doesn't have any power in the eyes of MSTS. It's merely up or down to the sim, it doesn't matter at all wether the panto or pole is touching the wire, or if the pole extends a whole meter higher than the wire, MSTS sees a route as electrified or not, and all electric trains can run on all electrified routes.I really don't think you've started anything negative, it was an interesting thread and has brought no flames and only productive discussion. This is one of my favourite places on the board as it's quiet, everyone is nice more or less, and it helps that I'm a traction fan. Ok, well, how about this:Assuming the pole is mounted forward of the rear bogie, could you not have the section of the pole from directly above the center of the bogie, back to the point where it touches the wire, move?Totally non-prototypical for most, if not all, cars, but... solves the much less prototypical "swerving mount" problem.Just an idea. I don't really care either way, something is better than nothing. I'd rather have the trolley pole go a few inches or a foot from the wire than not even move! I don't really even see why they built the pantograph feature into MSTS as opposed to putting in, say, working doors. Can't do much when it's down, so it doesn't add much to the sim IMHO, working doors would have been a better thing to spend their time on than pantographs. That's just my $0.02 though.OH AND LASTLY because I didn't see that anyone else had answered:From Tim Frost's great big mind full of useless facts and things:Plethora means abundance, large number, see also 'myriad' (one of my favorite words).
From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:pleth·o·ra
n.
1. A superabundance; an excess.
1. An excess of blood in the circulatory system or in one organ or area.Tim Frost
The Union Atlantic Railroad: Your stuff's important!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Why not just do what Memphis has done, ruin ALL your trolleys with pantographs!-Chris

CYKWORKS

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I've had a really stupid idea! If the trolley (tram) was built as one model, and the trolley pole as a seperate vehicle with two unseen axles, one on the centreline of the pivot, and the other on the centreline of the wire, then it'd be possible to produce a trolley (tram) with not only a pole which followed the wire and stayed on it, but by producing alternative pole vehicles, the same model could be used for several different wire heights!What do the other simmers think!This is along the lines of the way articulated steam locos are currently built for the sim.Paul

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I never thought so much would come out of my original enquiry about pivoting trolley-poles.Dan and Paul's ideas of a separate invisible "pole wagon" sound promising, especially as it would also be applicable to 4-wheel cars. However, I think that coupling to the "real" car might have a similar effect to that described by Tim Muir, in that the trolley-base may not stay in its place on curves. Using the rear coupler on the "real" car would probably prevent attaching another car, whether multiple unit PCC or freight cars behind a box-motor or other interurban car. I don't know how an invisible wagon might affect the appearance of any car attached to the "real" car.I have experimented with several articulated trams of 3, 4 and 5 sections, where the pantograph is not on the first section. I removed the pantograph section and the tram still moves, provided the P key gives "Pantograph Up". Unless the first section has an "invisible" pantograph, electric cars seem to move whether a pantograph or trolley-pole is fitted or not. This would mean that a car without a trolley-pole and a wagon (not loco) with a trolley-pole would give the pivoting action and follow the overhead wire.In similar vein, I wonder whether the "normal" MSTS trolley-pole, provided that it pivots at the base, could have an invisible structure attached to the trolley-head, consisting of a vertical strut connected to an axle which runs on the track. The trolley-base would stay put and the trolley-head would always be on the wire. This would not affect the couplers, but again I don't know what effect it would have on the appearance of any attached car.After 18 months of fixed trolley-poles, it may be time to investigate methods of pivoting and following the wire and to find at least one solution, which could be applied to future models, and may even be applied retrospectively to existing ones.The traction models are so good and so popular, that I am sure that such an improvement would be welcomed by the hundreds (?) of people who have downloaded them.Eric in UK

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Well, MSTS doesn't neccesarily know which part of the model is the trolley pole or pantograph, because animating it, whether to raise/lower or rotate is optional. All it cares about is that the car is specified as electric where it needs to be. Then it'll run on any electrified route.If you did use the second car as a pantograph or trolley pole, you could always add a rear coupler to that and couple things to that. It could be an invisible car, like some available in the library, 0m long and see-through, with the trolley pole where it should be.Not sure how the second car can be within the first though?Maybe someone with more experience can shed some light on that for me. Tim Frost
The Union Atlantic Railroad: Your stuff's important!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Since the question of trolley poles came up, I have a question which may be a little off thread.I am building the Chicago Aurora and Elgin. About 90% was third rail, 10% under wire. Thanks to the good work of Tim, I now have a loco with both trolley poles down and it is great on the 3rd rail. I have also done a car with trolley poles down. Now, is it possible to animate the trolley pole so it is up under wire and down on 3rd rail and still have the loco run?Any help out there?
Sparkie

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 01:29 AM (EST)

Hey, how's it going? Sparkie, I'm afraid not. The P key that animates the pan / trolley pole shuts off power to an electric loco when the collector is down. Period. It's the way it's "wired" in the program. Now, if we could find another key to animate the poles.....( About the CA&E Pups. We must also thank Chuck Zeiler and Bill Hall for their work on them. Chuck did alot of testing, fixed the marker lights to not crash the sim, the lights, engine file, and lots of help. Bill made the great cabview for the steeplecabs. )Timtimmuir@wcn.net

Electric Railroad 3D Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3fcc2eee1d490d5c.jpg

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Sorry I missed you, Chuck and Bill. Thanks again for the help on the pups. Since I don't have any wire up yet, the pups are 100% correct on my Roarin Elgin. But the 3rd rail down the middle of the street on the Geneva branch tends to run up the cost of insurance. Just like the rest of the problems we run into with MSTS, there is probably an answer out there in the ether.Sparkie

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.