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PCC questions

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Charter Member · 217 posts

Hi fellow traction fans!After looking at some of the pictures of PCC cars posted earlier, I've noticed that most of the newer PCC cars, and also most new light rail systems use a pantograph. I was just curious, what is the advantage of using a pantograph as opposed to a traditional pole and pickup wheel? I would think that the contactor on the pantograph would wear out pretty fast from arcing and from abbrasion as it's dragged along the line.Also, are modern PCC and light rail systems still using DC, or are they running on AC now? I would think that it would be more efficient to use AC, especially on longer lines, because then you could increase the voltage to overcome voltage drops. But then I guess traction motors still run on DC, so you would have to have an onboad transformer to step down the voltage and rectifiers to convert it to DC. Who knows? I was just curious. I know the Amtrak Accela cars use pantographs, but I'm not sure if they use DC or AC.

Chris T.
San Bernardino, California

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RE: PCC questions, Swissie, Mar-31-03, 07:10 AM, (1) RE: PCC questions, abarten, Mar-31-03, 10:17 AM, (2) RE: PCC questions, davidbeach, Mar-31-03, 04:07 PM, (3) RE: PCC questions, Swissie, Mar-31-03, 05:59 PM, (5) RE: PCC questions, davidbeach, Mar-31-03, 06:24 PM, (6) RE: PCC questions, Swissie, Mar-31-03, 06:28 PM, (7) RE: PCC questions, gatecityca, Mar-31-03, 04:42 PM, (4) RE: PCC questions, Tim Frost, Apr-23-03, 09:56 PM, (15) RE: PCC questions, csx7381, Mar-31-03, 08:11 PM, (8) RE: PCC questions, smallspy, Mar-31-03, 11:58 PM, (9) RE: PCC questions, gatecityca, Apr-01-03, 03:46 AM, (10) RE: PCC questions, Swissie, Apr-01-03, 08:26 AM, (11) RE: PCC questions, CMO, Apr-01-03, 11:38 PM, (12) RE: PCC questions, dchagar, Apr-02-03, 01:32 PM, (13) RE: PCC questions, P42number1, Apr-23-03, 09:14 PM, (14) RE: PCC questions, abarten, Apr-24-03, 09:23 AM, (16)

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Member since Sep-27-02 · 365 posts

RE: PCC questions

LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-03 AT 07:55 AM (EDT)

Hi Chris,let me dare to address your questions in length...1) Poles vs pantographs > After looking at some of the pictures of PCC cars posted earlier, I've noticed that most of the newer PCC cars, and also most new light rail systems use a pantograph. I was just curious, what is the advantage of using a pantograph as opposed to a traditional pole and pickup wheel? I would think that the contactor on the pantograph would wear out pretty fast from arcing and from abbrasion as it's dragged along the line.<First of course the "obvious" statement: Each type has its ups and downs...The trolley pole is actually an invention from early traction days, and many countries & systems that started electric service around 1890 / 1900 began with the pole. In my corner of the world, only the very first systems, such as two short trolley lines along Lake Geneva (Western Switzerland) used poles, or some but not all of the first trolley companies in the city of Zurich, before their competing routes were merged into one system. Most systems that came later started out with what we call the "lyra". This is basically a drag-style trolley pole, not a folding pantograph like later models. These lyra started to get replaced by pantographs, first the box-style ones (or however their name in English), later followed by the single holm models (see pix below). Please allow me to illustrate the topic with some pictures from various preserved and current trolley cars from Austrian, German and Swiss but also US systems, while we talk about the advantages and disadvantages of the various models, as far as a layman as me understands them. PCC questions – image 1
The classic trolley, as seen on PCC 1061 in use on the Market Street line in San Francisco, painted in PE scheme (yes, selected on purpose). Note how carefully the wire has to be laid through curves, to prevent the pole from derailing. Furthermore, trolley poles need aerial switches for the pole to take the right string of wire when the car underneath it travels over a switch or crossing. These switches do not only add up on your initial installation bill, but they also need (a lot of) maintenance, as they are the first part of the wire to suffer from tear and wear. While tear and wear on the pole may be limited when it uses a wheel, this model here is using a shoe. If the pole made direct contact with the wire (steel on steel), you’d have enormous problems with abrasion. Therefore, you will normally find a carbon collector inside the shoe which needs to be replaced occasionally. You can tell that the collector is almost used up when the pole starts to spark continously even while travelling along straight, unobstructed stretches of wire, with sparks in the colors of orange or green (depending on materials) – as opposed to the regular, blue type of sparks you always get when travelling over a circuit breaker, switch, intersection etc. PCC questions – image 2
Sacramento “Safety Car” 62 is a typical representative featuring a pole with wheel instead of contact shoe. While travelling along the wire, the wheels make a typical chirping sound, also referred to as “the singing wire” by many people.The upturn is that both types of poles are a rather easy piece of equipment as the pole moves in its entirety. Still, it needs to be mounted on a base that can swivel to the sides, as the pole needs to follow the wire when traveling around a curve. The narrower the turn, the better you can observe this. PCC questions – image 3
1902 built motor 2 of LSB, one of several suburban trolley lines later integrated into the City of Zurich’s transport agency. It is a typical example of the “lyra generation”. And the small trailer is actually a mail car (no joke)…From ca. 1900 onwards, many European systems opted for the lyra. “Car-side”, its construction is as easy as the pole – basically, it is a stiff piece of metal, mounted in a “harp-style” bow and held in place by springs at its base. Again, the contact bridge, i.e. the part of the lyra that makes contact with the wire needs occasional replacement. On some early models, the contact bridge was actually just “plain metal” touching the wire, with predictable results. Common sense dicdated to use carbonized collectors again, mounted onto (or into) the bridge or “bow” actually in contact with the wire. As the lyra is a little bumpy by nature, it rather scratches than slides along the wire. Abrasion is a persistent problem with lyra pantographs, both for the contact bridge as for the wire itself. Lyrae will actually damage the surface of the wire, almost like a rasp. Needless to say management does not like this, especially in times when copper supply became a problem (WW II!). Several atetmpts were made to reduce abrasion: On some early models, the contact bridge was actually just “plain metal” touching the wire, with predictable results. Common sense dictated to use carbon collectors again, mounted onto (or into) the bridge or “bow” actually in contact with the wire. Look at the following detail:PCC questions – image 4
Furthermore, the wire was strung in a gentle “zig-zag” to ensure that abrasion did occur on the entire span of the contact bridge, not only in its centre.PCC questions – image 5
Faced with the abrasion problem of the lyra, and the inherent need of copper for replacing worn out wires, lyra pantographs started to be replaced with the “classical” box-style type of pantographs from the 1920s/1930s onwards. An early example, again from the city of Zurich, is Motor 321 from 1931. For the record, 321 is one of three cars preserved into our days, representing a 50 car series of motorcars commonly referred to as the “elephants” for their excellent traction. Note how complicated this early model of a pantograph looks.While the pantograph is a much more complicated piece of equipment than the straight-forward lyra – all those moving parts need to be greased, otherwise a “frozen” panto can tear down your wire - its additional weight and need for maintenance is more than offset by the much smoother way it travels along the wire, thus reducing maintenance cost on the electrical installations of a system considerably. Regarding transition, one of the advantages of the lyra is that it could co-exist with the pantograph on the same system….PCC questions – image 6
…and still can do so today. This wouldn’t be easy with poles. Many of the installations on a wire used by trolley poles – such as the switches – would have to be amended with protecting flanges to direct the contact bridge of a lyra or pantograph away from the fragile installation for the poles. Such an effort was not necessary for systems that used lyrae, as these were also just dragged along the wire.This inter-operability also ment that a transit company did not have to change from pole to pantograph in one systemwide step. Cars could simply be updated to new models of pantographs whenever they were due for maintenance or a rebuilt, as the following example illustrates:PCC questions – image 7
Zurich motor 2 as it exists today, preserved in an early state featuring a lyra.PCC questions – image 8
Preserved sister motor 1009 is basically of the same type of car, restored into a state after the installation of a pantograph and the introduction of a new numbering scheme. PCC questions – image 9
The almost ornamentalistic style of the first panto’s used on the “elephants” soon made way to a functional design that remained in use for the next 50 years. Zurich motor 1392, a representative of the “Unified Type” adopted by 5 cities – making it the Swiss counterpart to the PCC in the US – has been restored into the original state these cars were in when deliveries started in the 1940’s. PCC questions – image 10
Motor 427 is of the same type of car and shows the “Unified’s” as used by the Basel transit authority from 1948 until 2001. I added this picture because you can see that the shiny new contact bridge has just replaced the previous one which had obviously worn out. This had to happen for safety reasons, despite the decision to withdraw and scrap the car a few weeks after that picture. The imminent withdrawal was a fact at the time of the photo already, as the billboards on the rooftop and all ads inside 427 are gone already, probably transferred to a new car.PCC questions – image 11
Historic motor car 19 of the Austrian city of Innsbruck. Note the typical contact bridge that German and Austrian trolleys used from the 1950s to the 1980s. It is not mounted stiffly on the top of the pantograph, but it tilts backwards when the car moves forward, further reducing tear and wear.PCC questions – image 12
Modern cars such as articulated motor 2034 of San Diego, use single holm style pantographs which started to appear around the 1970’s. They offer the advantage of a considerable reduction in weight and space eaten up on the roof. It’s stability is no issue, and with fewer moving parts it has become the favourite pantograph not only for trolleys but also for conventional locomotives on electrified mainlines as well as for high speed trains. PCC questions – image 13
Despite all those pantographs, the trolley pole is not dead with many European transit agencies: As bus 104 of the small town of La Chaux-de-Fonds shows, many cities have electrified some of their bus routes. While the current on trams flows from the wire into the ground through the traction motor, its associated resistors and the steel tracks, buses need to overhead wires as those rubber tires on asphalt provide quite an efficient isolation towards the earth. So on the trolley bus, the current flows from the wire with a positive charge to the earth via traction motor and the wire with a negative charge. Neither the two wires nor the pantographs are to touch each other at any time or those 600V will be making a short circuit of a dimension which will have everybody within one block jumping. Therefore, two trolley poles are the ideal means to make contact with the two wires. 2) AC versus DC> Also, are modern PCC and light rail systems still using DC, or are they running on AC now? I would think that it would be more efficient to use AC, especially on longer lines, because then you could increase the voltage to overcome voltage drops.<To my knowledge, almost all transit systems still use DC world wide, simply for the fact that:
a) lines are short
b) wires and supporting installations can be built much lighter and cheaper. AC systems with their high voltage tend to need massive installations, down to the poles, isolators and the wire itself. > But then I guess traction motors still run on DC, so you would have to have an onboad transformer to step down the voltage and rectifiers to convert it to DC. Who knows?<The German city of Karlsruhe did some pioneering steps when it introduced by-modal motor cars about a decade ago. The system uses standard gauge, and (me thinks) 600V DC overhead. The German Railroad "DB" which was about to withdraw from operating some commuter lines in the region uses standard gauge, but 15 kV AC overhead. The transit system dared to offer to take over the exploration of the commuter services by building "on/off-ramps" from the city's rail network to the mainlines, plus by developing a set of cars that could run under both systems with the simple flip of a switch.PCC questions – image 14
That is Karlsruhe 823 travelling on the city streets towards the main station. After calling in front of the buildnig, it will continue to the access ramp, enter DB tracks, and travel on to the city of Baden Baden, some 40+ (estimate) miles away from Karlsruhe…OK, I hope I could shed some light on those questions, Chris. Kind regards, and cheers Lukas a.k.a Swissie
(Updated for the persistent typo)

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Charter Member · 695 posts

RE: PCC questions

Very good explanation. Just a few additional points:* Use of trolley poles, whether with wheels or sliders, requires a continuous contact wire, with special hardware at switches, crossings, and the like. Systems designed for pantographs can have segmented contact wires, with the one wire overlapping the previous for a smooth transition. The modern, constant tension, system of overhead construction takes advantage of this.* The zig-zagging of the contact wire is very deliberately designed in so that as a pan is moving down the wire, the wire is always moving side to side along the carbon (graphite) contact block(s). The wire is never allowed to run parallel to the rails.* Voltage transitions, such as on the Karlsruhe system or the Amtrak Northeast Corridor, and else where, are much more likely to be handled automatically than by the "flip" of a switch. Way too much that can go catastrophically wrong with the flip of a switch. Typically the power conversion will be made at a location where one would never expect/allow a pan to be stopped. A grounded section of contact wire will reset the control system, which will then evaluate the power supply on the next energized section of overhead and make the necessary internal connections for operation at that voltage and frequency (DC essentially being AC at a frequency of 0 Hz). Obviously there needs to be an insulated section between the energized and grounded sections. Such a system was in use in Portland for the Southern Pacific Red Cars 90 years or so ago, where they used the same 600 VDC downtown as the street cars, but ran at 2400 VDC (I think, reference material at home) out of town.* AC vs. DC. In general, the overhead and the traction motors can both be either, independent of each other.Historically, traction motors have been DC, but there have been AC traction motors going back to the 20's or earlier. AC motors have many distinct advantages over DC, but one very severe disadvantage - lack of easy speed control.In a DC traction motor, speed control is a function of applied voltage and field current, both reasonably controllable, even from the dawn of rail traction.In an AC motor, speed is a function of line frequency and the number of poles in the motor winding. Early attempts at AC traction often produced constant speed machines, although there were examples of two speed machines, where the low speed was achieved by switching the winding connections to double the number of poles.In general, the choice of line voltage has corresponded with the choice of AC vs. DC, with DC being use up through the low thousands of volts and AC being used above that.Through the mid to late 90's, city (and interurban) systems would typically be DC at the 600 to 1500 VDC level, with DC traction motors. Far and away the easiest, cheapest, way to go. For longer distances or larger loads, higher voltages are desired, and here AC is the general rule. The Milwaukee Road's 3000 VDC system was the exception that proves this rule as they suffered voltage drop and capacity limitations over the whole life of the system.Most of the "steam road electrifications" used AC overhead and DC traction motors. The earliest of these took in the overhead AC voltage, transformed it down to a lower voltage, ran the AC through an AC motor, which then drove a DC generator. This DC was then the source of power for the traction motors. Later units used various types of rectifiers to change the AC (after the unit transformers) to DC.Since the 90's, AC traction motors have become more prevalent. These AC traction systems use solid state inverters to produce AC at the necessary frequency for the desired speed. The inverters use a DC input, so if the overhead is AC it still needs to be rectified to produce DC for the inverters.So, early on there were systems with DC overhead and DC traction, AC overhead with AC traction (constant speed), and AC overhead with DC traction. Then the AC/AC system died out, leaving just AC/DC and DC/DC. Now with inverter driven AC traction you can have all four combinations, with both AC and DC traction on the same system.David Beach.Palouse & LewistonPCC questions – image 16Route Building 1% Completed
Route Mapping 10% Completed
Route Photo Map 100% Completed (Now, Can I make the Railroad Profile match the photo map?)

Standardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build00018.

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Member since Sep-27-02 · 365 posts

RE: PCC questions

LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-03 AT 06:21 PM (EDT)

David,thank you very much for your interesting additional points which I enjoyed reading very much.> Voltage transitions, such as on the Karlsruhe system or the Amtrak Northeast Corridor, and else where, are much more likely to be handled automatically than by the "flip" of a switch. Way too much that can go catastrophically wrong with the flip of a switch. <(Chuckle) Agreed, speaking of human nature > Typically the power conversion will be made at a location where one would never expect/allow a pan to be stopped. A grounded section of contact wire will reset the control system, which will then evaluate the power supply on the next energized section of overhead and make the necessary internal connections for operation at that voltage and frequency (DC essentially being AC at a frequency of 0 Hz). Obviously there needs to be an insulated section between the energized and grounded sections. (...) <Typically, but not necessarily. One specific transition point I remember springs to my mind, which operated as follows:======== ¦ xxx ¦ =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= *S* ~= ¦ xxx ¦ ~~~~~~~~=== train runs under DC
~~~ train runs under AC
xxx permanently insulated
=~= section of track that can be switched from DC to AC and vice versa
*S* Mandatory stop at absolute red signal (light)A train coming from the DC wire would enter the switcheable section of track under DC and stop at the absolute red light. Once the train is stopped the DC voltage is switched of, the engines are switched by whatever trigger, plus the driver has to manually confirm that it is ok to reset the voltage to AC, then the AC voltage is fed into said stretch of track, the light turns green, and the train can continue. A similar layout is still in operation on an interurban style line in the Zurich area. Within the city limits, it runs under the 600 V DC wire of the city transit authority. At the city limits, it does the transition to the 1200 V DC the interuban uses on its own trackage. While DC to DC doesn't sound too difficult, entering the 1200 V wire with your engine set to 600 V can ruin the day Actually, I've even got a picture of said transition point in my archive:PCC questions – image 17Note the two neighbouring circuit breakers within the red box. Another pair would be behind the trainset, to the right of the picture. The short stretch of wire inside each of the two pairs is the permanently insulated wire, the train itself is under the part of wire that can be switched to either voltage. Bound for the city centre under 600 V DC, it is just leaving from the plattform where the transition from 1200 V to 600 V has taken place while passengers were loading/unloading, in MSTS slang...From the picture, you can easily see why that layout was chosen. The transition point is in quite a steep grade! Having to idle the uphill trains (those that come from 600 V to 1200 V) through the transition point on their own momentum would be quite unreliable, and given the fact that there is a stop in the area anyways, the layout chosen is the best solution for this specific situation.Lukas a.k.a Swissie
(Edited for the final paragraph)

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Charter Member · 695 posts

RE: PCC questions

LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-03 AT 06:25 PM (EDT)

Swissie,Your picture doesn't seem to be working, so I'm not quite sure what it might be showing .Manually switching voltages while stopped is certainly an option, and if you have a stop there anyhow, particularly on an upgrade, well that might just be the best way for that application. That's why I used lots of typically's and generally's, and I completely left out the DB multi-voltage locomotives of the late 70's (and perhaps later) with their four pantographs for four different combinations of voltage and frequency, obviously a manual change.By the way, at least in North American English, the electrical machine that spins to provide power to a driven load is a motor, not an engine. Engine and motor are often used interchangeably for many uses, but the electrical machine is always a motor (unless it is a generator - a whole 'nother matter.)David Beach.Palouse & LewistonPCC questions – image 18Route Building 1% Completed
Route Mapping 10% Completed
Route Photo Map 100% Completed (Now, Can I make the Railroad Profile match the photo map?)

Standardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build00018.

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Member since Sep-27-02 · 365 posts

RE: PCC questions

Hi David,the picture should display, I uploaded it gain and it now shows in my browser. It did so before, until I probably & inadvertedly mutilated the link when I edited the post for the additional paragraph...Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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Charter Member · 217 posts

RE: PCC questions

Lukas,WOW! Thank you! I learned a lot from that post! I appreciate your work in finding and posting all those pictures! Thanks too, David, for your input.

Chris T.
San Bernardino, California

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Member since Apr-9-03 · 108 posts

RE: PCC questions

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PCC questions – image 19

That was really a fascinating explanation and very accurate as far as I can see it.David brought up some other interesting points as well.I'd just like to add that in San Francisco, occasionally "patrons" will pull down the trolley pole(s) off of a PCC or a trolley-bus to distract the driver and board for free.Though using pantographs on trolley-buses is unsafe and impractical, mainly because the bus must swerve to the right and left under the wire and a pole with a shoe is best for this, pantographs cannot be pulled down by their attachment wire.This is obviously a very abstract problem with trolley-poles, but one to consider nonetheless! Thanks for that explanation, well put all around! Tim Frost
NVTA Subway routes for BVE:
http://nvta.co.ukPCC questions – image 20

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Member since Oct-29-02 · 531 posts

RE: PCC questions

>I've noticed that most of the newer PCC cars, and
>also most new light rail systems use a pantograph. I was
>just curious, what is the advantage of using a pantograph as
>opposed to a traditional pole and pickup wheel? I would
>think that the contactor on the pantograph would wear out
>pretty fast from arcing and from abbrasion as it's dragged
>along the line. Two cities,including Newark,NJ and Pittsburgh,PA,have converted from pole to pantograph.The reason is poles came off the wires on turns. Pittsburghs conversion occured in the mid-1980s,while the conversion in Newark happened in 1999 when the line was getting upgraded. PCCs in Pittsburgh ran as 47S South Hills Village via Overbrook,47L Library via Overbrook,47 Penn Park via Overbrook,and the 47D Drake via Overbrook,which became a Shuttle between Drake and Washington Jct(sometimes Castle Shannon)in 1993.The Drake line survived until 1999 when it shut down for upgrading,which will be completed in 2004.

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Charter Member · 230 posts

RE: PCC questions

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PCC questions – image 21

>Two cities,including Newark,NJ and Pittsburgh,PA,have
>converted from pole to pantograph.The reason is poles came
>off the wires on turns. Pittsburghs conversion occured in
>the mid-1980s,while the conversion in Newark happened in
>1999 when the line was getting upgraded. Newark's line being upgraded to pantograph operation had nothing to do with the poles coming off in turns. The reason that they upgraded is because the new cars were going to be equipped with pantographs...unless the order is for Toronto, no one gets trolley poles anymore.Plus, if you're going to be running point-to-point instead of loop-to-loop, it's just a lot easier with pantographs.If set up properly, trolley poles almost never dewire. It rarely happens here in Toronto...now, *maybe* a half-dozen times a day on a system running over 200 streetcars daily. All it needs is a little care, and a proper set up.I can't say for Pittsburg, but I suppose that they changed over for the same reasons that Newark did.Dan

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Charter Member · 217 posts

RE: PCC questions

Hi Dan, CSX (I think I know who this is ) and others,Yeah, I was just curious about the preference there seems to be with pantographs on modern lines. As far as the trolley pole coming off the wire, I imagine occassionally it did happen, but as far as I know it was pretty rare. The Pacific Electric Railway (love that picture you had of the PCC in PE paint, Lukas!) had a huge interurban system all throughout southern California and it used poles with pickup wheels on all of its cars throughout its lifespan (well at least until some of the later frieght lines were dieselized) and that doesn't seem to have been a problem. On the longest line, from Los Angeles to San Bernardino, the "Big Red Cars" regularly ran at speeds of 60 mph or higher on a 1200 volt DC line, using interurban cars with a traditional pole and pickup wheel.P.S. I wish there were more heritage and restored trolley lines running today. I'm from Chicago originally, so I did get my share of riding the electric el trains when I was little. But otherwise the only experience I've ever had with riding electric railways has been at the Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris, CA. Of course, by the time I came around, the PE was long, long gone.

Chris T.
San Bernardino, California

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Member since Sep-27-02 · 365 posts

RE: PCC questions

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-03 AT 08:28 AM (EDT)

Hi again, Chris,> But otherwise the only experience I've ever had with riding electric railways has been at the Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris, CA. As you are now living in CA, it shouldn't be too difficult to polish that up a bit. OREM is nice, especially as it runs both standard gauge PE and narrow gauge LARy cars. But for longer rides, you should head to San Diego one of those nice springtime weekends. Their modern system has quite long and diverse rides to offer, with the El Cajon line running up into the mountains, the San Ysidro line basically following the old SD&A track through National City to the International Border, and the Fashion Valley line serving the old town and several malls in said valley (not to forget the Padres stadion, IIRC).And of course head up to San Francisco for one of the longer bank holiday weekends or so. Besides Muni with its variety of rail services (LRT routes, the F-Street PCC trolley line inluding the "PE" car above, and cable cars), there is also BART to explore, plus CalTrain to San José and the LRT system over there. Ah yes, don't forget the trolley museum near Travis in your plans which runs on a remnant of the Key System, IIRC (that's where I got the picture of the Sacramento car in the initial post).Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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Charter Member · 373 posts

RE: PCC questions

An exception to the rule was the Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee. They used only poles with sliders (outside of third rail territory.) They regularly operated at speeds up to 90mph with poles. In some areas, the wire was cantenary, but in others it was simple suspension. In many years of riding the line, I saw ONE diwirement, ad that was at a crossing, not a frog.

Dave

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Member since Apr-16-03 · 11 posts

RE: PCC questions

In Philadelphia, we have 2 Light Rail lines that uses Pantographs, and a couple trolley routes that uses poles on the LRVs. Strange.

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Member since Aug-28-02 · 144 posts

RE: PCC questions

Boston still uses both, also. The PCCs on the Mattapan-Ashmont line use poles; all LRVs (on other routes) use Faivelies (did I spell that right?).Cheers, AlPCC questions – image 22
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