Internal/External sounds - why bother?

I'm not much of a sound hacker, I only recently found out about the activation and deactivation in .sms files, so I'm asking this out of pure ignorance. Why have two different sets of sounds at all, stereo for the inside cab view and mono for exterior sounds? Stu's hacks on the .sms files for invisocar sound just fine either in the cab or outside it, and I'm currently working on footstomping and snorting/grunting/groaning/bellowing sounds for G&D #13. Timken sent me his hacks for a burro to look at for a template, and that has only one .sms file which works for cabview or external sounds.So what's the point to a seperate cab.sms file? The disadvantages are obvious, complication that the sim has a hard time handling, drop out of desired sounds after switching views, sound loops, etc. Most sound sources and track sound regions are designed to deactivate in the cabview, so when you're going over a junction or under a bridge, for example, you don't hear the track sound change unless you're outside the cab.So the question is, are there advantages? Why not eliminate the cab.sms and just change the eng.sms in an .eng file to always use external sounds, even in the cabview and pasenger views?

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RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, MasterChief, Aug-01-03, 10:12 AM, (1) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, robertlearmont, Aug-13-03, 04:36 PM, (11) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, chucksc, Aug-01-03, 01:20 PM, (2) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, csantucci, Aug-01-03, 04:50 PM, (3) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, chucksc, Aug-01-03, 10:44 PM, (5) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, Jeff_Ashton, Aug-01-03, 08:58 PM, (4) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, timken, Aug-02-03, 04:11 PM, (6) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, sniper297, Aug-02-03, 10:03 PM, (7) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, scefhwil, Aug-10-03, 07:15 PM, (8) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, Dokkensound, Aug-11-03, 10:55 PM, (9) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, ace6879, Aug-12-03, 12:59 PM, (10) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, sniper297, Aug-14-03, 07:35 PM, (12) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, ace6879, Aug-15-03, 10:13 AM, (13) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, akajim, Aug-15-03, 01:10 PM, (14) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, scefhwil, Aug-15-03, 05:02 PM, (15) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, sniper297, Aug-15-03, 07:57 PM, (16) RE: Internal/External sounds - why bother?, scefhwil, Aug-16-03, 11:27 AM, (17)

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I've wondered this too, especially since on some locomotives, the horn, for example, is louder in the cab than outside, while on others the horn is louder outside. (Do I have too many commas in that sentence?)Never having ridden in a real locomotive, I can only wonder how much soundproofing the cab has, and what the sounds are really like; but here in MSTS it seems to vary with the engine.MC

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I don't get it, because one time I blew the horn on BN GP28M 1536 and it sounded very quiet. But one time on a WC SD45, I blew thehorn and it souunded much louder than BN. (The GP28M was a real locomotive, and the SD45 was a training simulator for training future crews.
Robert Learmont
You're reading my signature now. ----------
Cool dude and non-licensed real engineer who has driven real trains and railroad training simulators. Goin'on 13! I'm growin' up into a smart LICENSED TRAIN SERVICE ENGINEER!!!!!!!

HEY! On the MSTS box, it says "For entertainment Purposes Only!

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Kripes Jim don't you ever get tired of Trolling? I'm sure mono sounds on the interior and exterior will go fine with your 1 light purple sd40s....I guess with only 1 ear and 1 eye that's about as good as it gets, eh?Heh, heh! (donning my flame resistant suit now!)
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Mono sounds can be OK for the cab view as long as You do not have real stereo .wavs (that is with left channel different from right one). In this latter case stereo sounds in cab view are nicer to hear.Carlo Santucci

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-03 AT 10:46 PM (EDT)

At the rate Sniper is trolling through the boards it won't be long till he gets to the BVE forum.... I've already got my grandstand seat picked out to observe the gentle and sensitive interaction between Jim and the Forum Nazis(err ah Moderators) down there....
<Writes note to self - be sure and let Kevarc know...
He'll want to watch too! >
Hey Kevin! You bringing the popcorn or the beer?
I'll bring which ever you don't!
ROFLMFAO!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>So the question is, are there advantages? Why not eliminate
>the cab.sms and just change the eng.sms in an .eng file to
>always use external sounds, even in the cabview and pasenger
>views? Well, I think the main benefit of having a separate cab.sms is that you can customize the sounds for the environment. I've never ridden in a train cab either, but it's gotta sound very different from being outside. Also, a cab.sms allows the addition of sounds not likely to be heard outside (control sounds, aws warnings, radio chatter etc.).I've also had some success with stereo effects in the cab and passenger views, so I'm just grateful the tools are there for us to use. I'd rather have a few tools we can live without than the other way around!Jeff

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Jim! At least on a steam loco, there are a huge number of sounds that are present only, or mostly in the cab. Stereo is less of a big deal, although it is nice to have the sounds come from the correct locations. (you do have 2 speakers don't you?) Also, the chug has a more of a gut thumping woof, as the air is sucked through the draft areas and around the firebox door. Outside the chuff is much sharper and has more high frequencies mixed in. Sounds like coal shoveling and firebox door would sound pretty strange, 5 cars back.Any discrepencies in volume, are generally poor work on the part of the person who did the wav files. If the whistle is way louder in the cab than just outside, 1 wav is set to the wrong volume. It takes some experimenting to get them right, just because the sound editing program says they are the same volume, you don't think the sim would use them that way do you?!!

Steve T.

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Yeah, I can dig that, I did the PO&N 0-8-0s with the eng.sms aliased to the scotsman and the cab.sms aliased to the 380 for more of the thru-the-firebox interior sound. What's bugging me is the new Chicago EL, I haven't done enough reverse engineering to figure out if the sounds are coming from the track or the sms files yet. But exterior views I get an extremely realistic elevated track sound , and when I change back to the #1 cabview I get the same old MSTS disco drum beat .I do have left and right speakers and a big subwoofer, the thing is I've noticed in the head out views when I rotate the view around, the engine sound shifts from left to right speaker and back as I rotate, in spite of being a mono wav. In cab it don't matter that it's stereo, since the view position don't change. Maybe it shifts around when you look out the left or right windows, I'll have to try it.What got me wondering about this was both your burro sounds and the hacking Stu did on Invisocar, everything in the activation section, nothing in the deactivation section. Crossing gate bells are the dumbest setup, deliberately designed to be completely inaudible in the cabview? Obviously that can be fixed by changing the crossing.sms to move cab from deactivation to activation, after that every sound source that you would like to hear in the cab would need to be hacked too. An AI train goes by with chuff-chuff or growl, then the cars go squeak-squeak, but in the cabview you don't hear the AI engine at all, and the cars go clickety-clack instead of squeak-squeak. I know now that's in the genfreightwag2.sms, question is why the cabcam deactivation? Assuming the sim can handle only so many sounds at one time, shouldn't the stream priority be able to sort that out? Stu did such a magnificent job on Invisocar that the sound volume is perfectly adjusted according to distance from the source, so it got me wondering why all sounds couldn't be done that way.

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Why bother indeed!Actually, I'd agree that the only reason for bothering, as already suggested, is if you have TRUE stereo (ie, not just two channels the same) source recordings. But these would only apply to Cab and Passenger view sounds, so External sounds should always be mono. Don't forget though the function of the Stereo() statement. Miss it out and the sim will play the .wav files at 11025Hz into one channel then apply 3D affects, ie will give different volume levels in each speaker dependant on source position relative to direction of viewing and distance away. If you include Stereo() in the .sms then the sim will play the wav files at 22050Hz into two channels, alternatively, but with no applied 3D effect. So in this case the only 3D effect comes form the aureal (I think thats the correct word) effect of the original stereo recording.But you can actualy play any rate/Hz file by correctly adjusting the frequency curve of its Stream. This will however create some degree of pitch shift as well, but can force the correct playing speed. This is my chosen approach with my 2 and 3 Cyl Sound sets. Only mono sounds are used, played at 11025Hz in the mono external .sms and played at 5512Hz in the Stereo() Cab .sms. The effect on the Cab sounds of the 'half-rate' playback is to lower the sounds pitch slightly which has the effect of making the sound duller, ideal for inside the cab!Now, the question of why use cabview.sms's is a different issue. As is now generally understood it's what's in the Activation/Deactivation sections that control what view a particular .sms file will be heard in, and not where the .sms file is called from. For a loco ie .eng file, there are three options for where to call an .sms from, either from the Wagon() section, the Engine() section or the Inside() section. These are by default associated with External, Cab and Passenger views respectively, BUT only because kuju set up the Activation/Deactivation sections to match this. The 'hardcoded' difference is that each of these locations for calling an .sms from expose the .sms file to a different set of Variables and Discrete Triggers. You only have access to the Discrete triggers associated with moving the engines controls when the .sms is called from the Engine() section. Why? ............ There are other examples. ie You can't access Variable1, 2 or 3 with an .sms called from an Inside() statement.So, my conclusion is, you need to use cabview sms's to get access to all the triggers for cab views, but only use stereo .wav's if the original recordings are true stereo.Regarding the issue of "the sim can handle only so many sounds at one time" see here:-http://forums.atomic-systems.com/viewtopic.php?t=8717Stuart

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Now ya done it Jim, ya went and woke up the sound engineer!!!!! Why Indeed!! Well , because it does sound very different in most locomotives from the cab to an outside perspective. In a Dash 9 with the horn mounted back on the long hood it can bairly be heard in the cab unless the AC dies and the windows are open. In some old units with it mounted on the cab roof it's about painful inside. You can't hear the air hiss from the bell cutoff from outside. I have also been creating more horns with the control noise added on the inside sound.Now as to why Stereo and Mono. When I record sounds for MSTS I place a stereo mic right over the engineers head so the sounds should be coming from the correct location when played back in stereo.
Using mono for outside sounds allows the software to (pan) or position the sounds point of origin at the correct point in the viewers field. The software also activates a doppler shift as the sound source approaches and passes.
If anything the sound on MSTS is overly simple and in some ways is waiting for sound cards to catch up with todays 3d video cards. MSTS should be using a 5.1 mix in the cab. All Mono!!! You should be listening to train sounds recoded on a wax cylinder!!!!!

Dokkensound
Train Artisan
Lighting & Sound

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You'll have to forgive Sniper. He did WAY to much glue sniffiin' in the 80's. Once again trying to prove he is the GOD of MSTS. What is coming this time to try to prove you point?? Several consists with mono, some with stereo, and others with YOUR brand of sound???You have nevver spent time on a real train...not those fricking L wanna be's either, I take it. Christ man, get a life and get real! Join KUJU..they need reverse engineeering stupes like you!!
And NO I did not mean to be nice this time!LAter!

Kelley D. Ellison
OK, CBPRA is gone...are you happy now?
CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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I did not sniff glue in the 80s. I sniffed glue in the 60s, I drank Crown Royal in the 80s. Eventually had to give that up too, I destroyed so many brain cells my IQ was almost low enough to be a lighting designer. Hell, another 20 years of Canuck whiskey and I coulda been dumb enough to be a virtual CEO."OK, CBPRA is gone...are you happy now?"Took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about, then I noticed you're the only one here without a scrolling train gif. Further investigation shows that someone has even tampered with your browser so you can't see all of our scrolling train gifs, so you can't tell that you're the only one who doesn't have one. This is clearly a conspiracy by the forum moderators to discriminate against you personally, so as your attorney I advise you to notify the ACLU forthwith.Well, back on topic, I can see from all the above there are no simple answers to this. I've tried moving activation/deactivation in either the AI engine or player engine, and since the volume curve don't work the same I get full blast as soon as the AI engine is in range, so I guess all the screwing around with volume and frequency curves is necessary to hear the AI train going chuff-chuff from inside the cab. Doggone clickety clack track sounds are the opposite, I can hear them in the cab as the AI goes past, but not in external view. I guess hacking the ttype and cloning ingame.sms might work, but again the volume and frequency curves have to be played with to get it to work in both internal/external views.Stu, I read your thing and one item stands out - I don't get SoundSystem ( 3, 40, 20, 5242880 ) "near the bottom" of the soundcfg.dat file, I get it once in each Scalability group. I also notice there's a Scalability 2 and 4 which I've never seen used, and there's no zero for AI trains? Is there a list somewhere that defines what each scalability group does?

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HAte to break your fun, but I removed it myself to stop the whinny little brats on here from telling me to remove it so they could go on to better things to whine about. Didn't know about the browser thing. Didn't care, but thanks for the knowledge. IF I had not removed it and it stopped, it would have pissed me off. so you Actually helped me!! I bow to you sir!!

Kelley D. Ellison
OK, CBPRA is gone...are you happy now?
CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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Be nice, you guys (Sniper & Kelley) !!!!!!!!!!! Ron K of Rockford

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The SG levels relate to the Options - Sound - Quality setting in the sims main menu :-SG5 = High
SG4 = not used
SG3 = Medium
SG2 = not used
SG1 = LowAs you can see from the default soundcfg.dat file the only difference is the amount of memory allocated to the SMS.

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Okay, so if I were to use SG1 and SG0 only in an .sms file for a stegosaurus, for example, the sounds specified in that group would always be heard regardless of the end user's sound quality setting? My thinking on this is if I'm not overloading it with simultaneous sounds, there's not much point in doing all the work to make the extra groups. Or would it play no sounds at all if the SG5 was missing and I had it set on high?

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Spot on sniper. If you use SG1 and SG0 then it will always be played. My sms's use these SG's only for exactly your reasoning!

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