Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA

CNN reporting two Metrolink trains sideswiped each other at Glendale, CASeveral cars on side, several at angles and jacknifed. Does NOT look good.

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RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, stephenburr, Jan-26-05, 10:19 AM, (1) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, fixin2, Jan-26-05, 10:42 AM, (2) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Waldo, Jan-26-05, 11:35 AM, (3) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, shoskins, Jan-26-05, 03:14 PM, (14) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Waldo, Jan-26-05, 04:17 PM, (18) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, fixin2, Jan-26-05, 11:57 AM, (4) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, bradhig, Jan-26-05, 12:26 PM, (5) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, NorthShore_364, Jan-26-05, 12:32 PM, (6) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Grimace780, Jan-26-05, 01:01 PM, (7) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Gixxer86g, Jan-26-05, 01:28 PM, (8) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, SVTS, Jan-26-05, 01:39 PM, (9) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Gixxer86g, Jan-26-05, 01:54 PM, (10) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, bnsf1959, Jan-26-05, 02:36 PM, (13) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, shoskins, Jan-26-05, 03:16 PM, (15) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, jtallen_0883, Jan-26-05, 05:56 PM, (24) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, callagst, Jan-26-05, 01:54 PM, (11) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, buzzbenz, Jan-26-05, 02:13 PM, (12) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, OTTODAD, Jan-26-05, 03:17 PM, (16) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, chucksc, Jan-26-05, 03:31 PM, (17) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Andy J, Jan-26-05, 04:26 PM, (19) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, NW 1218, Jan-26-05, 04:36 PM, (20) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ace6879, Jan-26-05, 04:40 PM, (21) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Drewster, Jan-26-05, 05:01 PM, (22) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, CGW409, Jan-26-05, 05:45 PM, (23) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, shoskins, Jan-26-05, 05:56 PM, (25) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Andy J, Jan-26-05, 05:58 PM, (26) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ns_sd70m, Jan-26-05, 06:11 PM, (27) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ns_sd70m, Jan-26-05, 06:59 PM, (28) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, OTTODAD, Jan-26-05, 07:01 PM, (29) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, fixin2, Jan-26-05, 07:34 PM, (31) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, CPR_Malice_96th, Jan-27-05, 10:50 AM, (34) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, bradhig, Jan-26-05, 07:14 PM, (30) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Drewster, Jan-27-05, 03:47 AM, (32) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Poltergeist, Jan-27-05, 10:41 AM, (33) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ns_sd70m, Jan-27-05, 11:35 AM, (35) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, CGW409, Jan-27-05, 07:22 PM, (37) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, singerbard, Jan-27-05, 01:18 PM, (36) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Butch38, Jan-27-05, 08:27 PM, (38) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Poltergeist, Jan-27-05, 09:54 PM, (39) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, georgi55_activated, Jan-28-05, 07:49 AM, (40) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, Poltergeist, Jan-28-05, 10:04 AM, (42) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, shoskins, Jan-28-05, 09:43 AM, (41) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, erniep, Jan-28-05, 11:26 AM, (43) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, SD75i, Jan-28-05, 08:42 PM, (44) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, GrandTrunkFan, Jan-28-05, 09:15 PM, (45) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, smallspy, Jan-28-05, 09:29 PM, (46) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, MikeF, Jan-29-05, 11:20 AM, (47) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, smallspy, Jan-29-05, 12:39 PM, (48) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, chucksc, Jan-29-05, 03:19 PM, (49) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ChrisCooper, Feb-01-05, 02:36 PM, (50) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ns_sd70m, Feb-01-05, 06:58 PM, (51) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, smallspy, Feb-01-05, 08:25 PM, (52) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ns_sd70m, Feb-01-05, 09:20 PM, (53) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, smallspy, Feb-02-05, 00:47 AM, (54) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, ns_sd70m, Feb-02-05, 07:36 AM, (55) RE: Serious Metrolink wreck - Glendale CA, smallspy, Feb-02-05, 09:48 PM, (56)

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Update indicates 3 dead, a lot injured, and at least one of the trains involved was a Union Pacific one.

Steve Burr, PE
Keeping Alive the Memories of the VGN and A&EC

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while cooking breakfast watching cNN Fox, msNBC looks like three trains involved, that is what I asertained trying to look while listening to the talking heads inputing their ignorant opinions (the collapsed signal tower was rescue equipment from one of the first responder units ) PLUS TRYING TO VIEW the live feeds through all the opaque banners, bugs and crawlers.
First blush, three trains involved two metrolink and a ballast train (the UP engine) Opinion from not being there, possibly a headon then one of the Metro sideswiped the wreckage. Disclaimer: I am NOT a TV reporter nor do I play one on TV, just a former railroader trying to watch it on TV.

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Hi,Watching on Fox News now (10:13CST). What a mess. UP in the news again! Say at least four dead,over one hundred injured, thirty critical and they are a long way from getting all the people. I can see two Metrolink trains and one UP engine. This was at Glendale, CA.Regards,

Waldo

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>Hi,
>
>Watching on Fox News now (10:13CST). What a mess. UP in the
>news again! Say at least four dead,over one hundred injured,
>thirty critical and they are a long way from getting all the
>people. I can see two Metrolink trains and one UP engine.
>This was at Glendale, CA. Say all the bad you want about UP, but inthis incident they had absolutely ZERO blame. Their train was parked on a siding (for the past two days). The sad part is, news was showing firefighters pulling a body out of the UP SD70M (4323) and reporting that both UP crew members were among the fatalities. Apparently they just came on duty and were waiting for clearance to head out to Ventura County with repair materials for the flood washouts from earlier this month.Apparently what happened is that some a$$hole parked his Jeep Cherokee on the tracks, it got hit by the southbound Metrolink with cab car leading, which derailed, picked the switch, and slammed into the parked UP train. Wrecked blocked part of the northbound main, and the northbound Metrolink just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and piled into the wreckage.

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I did not say anything "bad" for or against UP or any other railroad. Nor did I place blame on anyone. I have no problem with UP. I do have deep sympathy for the crew and passengers lost and injured, also the crews that will face the music and live with this just because they were there.As for Juan Manuel Alvarez I hope they lock him up and throw the key away. He has already proved a danger to society.Regards,
>>Hi,
>>
>>Watching on Fox News now (10:13CST). What a mess. UP in the
>>news again! Say at least four dead,over one hundred injured,
>>thirty critical and they are a long way from getting all the
>>people. I can see two Metrolink trains and one UP engine.
>>This was at Glendale, CA.
>
>Say all the bad you want about UP, but inthis incident they
>had absolutely ZERO blame. Their train was parked on a
>siding (for the past two days).

Waldo

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Now they are saying: a Metrolink hit a vehicle causing it to derail and hit the second Metrolink, then one of the Metrolinks hit the UP engined train. Several deceased, they're saying nine, and Two hundred injured.

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CNN said it might have been a suicide attempt by the driver of the jeep.

Riding on Supertrain.

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-05 AT 12:36 PM (EST)

And the moron who ran the crossing probably won't get sued a cent, while UP and Metrolink will take all the crap . It also appears that there are about 30 something people in critical condition.BTW the second unit of the UP train appears to be a CEFX Blue Baron SD40-2.

Founding Member of the No Patch SP and SSW Locomotives Club

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Full story can be found at http://www.cnn.com/ . Currently this is a front page story.Cheers,
Gary Cameron
Grande Prairie "The last civilized stop before Alaska," AB
Canada

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Authorities think the car was deliberately left on the tracks.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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The car was driven onto the tracks in a suicide attempt, but they are guessing he changed his mind at the last moment and left, leaving the car on the tracks. Metrolink came by and hit that car, then derailedinto the path of another Metrolink, which in turn took down the signal bridge overhead and the trains then hit a PARKED UP train, derailing it as well.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York
http://photobucket.com/albums/v520/CBP/Join the MSTS Fantasy NASCAR League today! Sign up in The Yard by Feb 8th.

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He's been arrested and is facing 10 counts of murder.I wonder why they haven't released the murderer's name yet?

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-05 AT 02:37 PM (EST)

>He's been arrested and is facing 10 counts of murder.I
>wonder why they haven't released the murderer's name yet? They did released his name, "Juan Manuel Alvarez, 26 and expected to be charged with homicide."Ken Plaza

www.muschkaactivityworks.com

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>>He's been arrested and is facing 10 counts of murder.I
>>wonder why they haven't released the murderer's name yet?
>
>They did released his name, "Juan Manuel Alvarez, 26 and
>expected to be charged with homicide." And Californians will be paying his room and board for the next 14-20 years even if he is found guilty and sentenced to death.

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>He's been arrested and is facing 10 counts of murder.I
>wonder why they haven't released the murderer's name yet? The State of California will probbaly add the special circumstances of train wrecking and mulpitble murder so he would be looking at a minimum if convected or 10 counts vilolating California Penal Code section 187 life w/out possiblity of parole per http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.htm

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This is as bad as it gets when passenger trains are involved. My sympathies go to the victims and their families. I hate crossing accidents with a professional vengeance, given the risks to the travelling public and to railroad employees. If the vehicle was left on the tracks, then the law enforcement people will have to do the forensic examination of the vehicle remains in an attempt to discover if a mechanical defect on the vehicle is an issue. If it is not, then criminal charges may be forthcoming against both owner and driver. I would not want to be in their shoes if this is the case. In my work, I have seen vehicles abandoned due to barrier entrapment at gated level crossings, as well as mechanical failure (stall on crossing). The drivers and passengers abandon the vehicle before they get struck by an oncoming train. I have also seen vehicles deliberately abandoned, to be susequently destroyed by the train, with a view to claiming the new replacement value insurance. Since most of the time the vehicle may be too badly damaged by impact, and forensics work is expensive compared to the cost of the insurance claim, the insurance company pays the claim on the basis of the police report rather than bear the cost of investigation. Then the rest of us honest folk get to reimburse the insurance companies with increased auto insurance premiums. It is called insurance fraud, and is more frequent than most people realize, as it is extremely difficult to disprove in court.NTSB will surely be doing some investigative work at the accident scene. Here's hoping that the safety deficiencies are properly identified and addressed in their accident report.

Steve C

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It was a suicide attempt.In this case, the driver decided against suicide at the last moment apparently and got out, then watched the ensuing disaster.He is now currently facing at least 10 counts of homicide.CNN has released his name.----------- BUZZ -----------

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Looks like a "Copy Cat" event similar to the one we had here in the UK not so long ago when a driver stopped on the tracks inside a controlled crossing and died when a high-speed passenger hit his car and derailing killed some of it's passengers and injuring many others ! O t t o

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Actually Otto I doubt this particular Idiot even knows where the UK is let alone that it has rail roads! Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Maybe California should lower there draconian restrictions on guns, that way when folks that decide to end it all, wont kill 10 folks and injure 200+ innocents in there feeble attempts to end it allI am sorry, this whole event really angers me, that ONE person can be so stupid, selfish and so and so full of cowardice all at the same timeMy heart goes out to the innocents that where lost and injured. Andy J http://www.blueridgerails.com/

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Unbelievable. I'm speechless. I....................................words don't come to me for something like this. I hope that f***ing ***hole gets life or the death penalty. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by my statement.

John Means
MASW Founder and President
The MASW site is www.meanslocoworks.com
www.blueridgerails.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-05 AT 04:46 PM (EST)

Um...... With today's law system, he will sue the railroads and win a huge suit. Mental cruelty to him for causing the deaths. THink of the wounded and the dead...AND THE CREWS who have to live with this. As all our real life rails can attest to, there is NOTHING like the helpless feeling you get when you see a vehilcle, person, or other on the rails. God please help the people involved....and help to convict the man responsible. EDIT: just saw it on headline News.....he is charged with 10 counts of murder so far! Hurrah!

Kelley D. Ellison
CSX A-Line Chief Lighting Engineer
NALW Lighting Engineer

Dekosoft Lighting Engineer
GM&O SIMULATIONS Chief Lighting Engineer

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-05 AT 05:02 PM (EST)

WHAT A MORON, I HOPE HE GETS LIFE IN PRISON, IF HE IS SUICIDAL HE DESERVES A LIFE IN PRISONx(

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Just a little message to Juan
Hey Dumbass if somehow you should find yourself in a posistion of freedom ever again and decide you still want to do yourself in wait till after the loco passes and throw yourself under the cars, that way the engine crew won't have to deal with the guilt about removing your worthless ass from the gene pool and ten(at least for now)people won't be dead because you had to try ending it all.
Maybe some of his new play mates in the joint will make his wish come true.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-05 AT 05:57 PM (EST)

>Just a little message to Juan
>Hey Dumbass if somehow you should find yourself in a
>posistion of freedom ever again and decide you still want to
>do yourself in wait till after the loco passes and throw
>yourself under the cars, that way the engine crew won't have
>to deal with the guilt about removing your worthless ass
>from the gene pool and ten(at least for now)people won't be
>dead because you had to try ending it all.
>Maybe some of his new play mates in the joint will make his
>wish come true. And the reply from Juan...
"No habla Ingles..."

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>Maybe some of his new play mates in the joint will make his
>wish come true.NO!! Remember he WANTS to die, lets keep him alive, so he can be Bubba's playtoyLets let him find out WHY, they call it “the pokey” and I anit talkin’ about the route this time!I am willing to contribute FUNDS for his cellmate's supply of Viagra, anyone else want to chip in,it is a worthy cause!
Andy J http://www.blueridgerails.com/

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> Lets let him find out WHY, they call it “the pokey” and I anit talkin’ about the route this time!LOL! As I have stated in another post about the subject, I hope that the driver of the SUV gets his death wish granted. I just wouldn't want to spend tax dollars keeping somebody alive like that. Not only is he a mass murder, he is also train-wrecker, which should make this case especially irreprehensible to all who love, appreciate, and respect trains. If they do decide to let him live, I hope they give him Charlie Manson for a cellmate...But I was also saying that the fact that one car parked on the tracks could cause so much damage to a train is very frightening. Just imagine the destruction that would have been caused if that were a UP Chemical train instead...

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This just in:<www.comcast.net/News/DOMESTIC//XML/1110_AP_Online_Regional___National__US_/37b36d9b-f36a-4829-80a1-2a79fed4723f.html>Appearently, the coward changed his mind bailed out when he saw the train coming for his car...

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This has been another "one in a million" chances of accident, the same as in the UK not so long ago when a Landrover driver lost control of it, having fallen asleep at the wheel, it careered down a railway cutting embankment and came to rest on the rails he could not move the vehicle off.Before he had a chance to alert the nearest signals box a passenger train hit it at speed and being derailed into the path of an oncoming coal freight train, which just happened to come along, killed numerous people, just like this accident !If this other Metro train had not been where it was, I doubt whether many would have been seriously injured. We call such coincidences "Sod's Law" here in the UK.My condolences to all relatives of those who died and hope that those injured will not suffer too much pain and will recover fully !O t t o

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>
>But I was also saying that the fact that one car parked on
>the tracks could cause so much damage to a train is very
>frightening. Just imagine the destruction that would have
>been caused if that were a UP Chemical train instead... just my opinion, but don't think a 'UP Chemical train' would be headed by a lightweight cab car which, as we were made painfully aware of today, derails without to awfully much proding.

Fuel for thought, what if the Metrolink that hit the vehicle had a FPwhatever, a GP or even an E unit.... maybe it probably would of been an entirely different, even a non event such as, 'Metrolink struck and destroyed an abandoned vehicle at a grade crossing, line shut down for 50 minutes, involved train delayed for 90 minutes, end of story.' Would probably not make the papers or TV.Another mark in the 'for closed corridor' column. But still as Otto and the UK incident points out even a closed corridor is vunerable if you somehow manage to drive off a bridge and your vehicle falls down onto the closed corridor rails.Question, did ANY of the engine crews survive this mess?

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>Actually Otto I doubt this particular Idiot even knows where
>the UK is let alone that it has rail roads!
HAHA !!( Now wiping coffee off the screen )Tim Kent – 96th_Malice - Winnipeg Canada

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Did anyone else notice Facing Point Media's homepage this evening? They have been talking about it on the forums there as well.

Riding on Supertrain.

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Yes, the wreck has deeply impacted the FPM crew and members. Ecspecially me, that could have been my friend that works at amtrak or me or you riding that train, God Bless the families and friends of all those who lost loved ones

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You know when I frist heard this story on the radio. I came to this forum to see if yall posted about it. Yep! Then I had to wait 24 hours to calm down because It just got me so angry about how this guy can be so selfish to 1. try to take other people out while taking himself out. 2. NOT taking the car with him when he decided to back out. and 3. Just stood there and watch the whole thing unfold. He should've gone for help! I hope the courts have no mercy on him!

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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> You know when I frist heard this story on the radio. I came to this forum to see if yall posted about it. Yep! Then I had to wait 24 hours to calm down because It just got me so angry about how this guy can be so selfish to 1. try to take other people out while taking himself out. 2. NOT taking the car with him when he decided to back out. and 3. Just stood there and watch the whole thing unfold. He should've gone for help! I hope the courts have no mercy on him!And he'll probably use the insanity defense when his case goes to trial...

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We're already getting from some sources the "we must understand and have compassion for" this piece of crap.
I also noticed that the Chicago Tribune and ABC's radio news broadcasts never named Juan and only reffered to "the deranged and suicidal driver" almost like they don't want to mention the name to avoid bringing up the politically incorrect question(in light of the problem California is having with this problem)o wether or not this guy was even here legally.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-05 AT 01:19 PM (EST)

Here's a diagram that shows what happened, from the LA Times online.

Kevin N Payne *aka* singerbard
Email: nikolaibard-*AT*-yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger: nikolaibard
MSN Messenger: singerbard

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Was it ever established as to whether he was a green card carrier??He could be a terrorist that chickened out at the last minute.Warren M.

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>Was it ever established as to whether he was a green card
>carrier??
>
>He could be a terrorist that chickened out at the last
>minute. It wasn't a terrorist act, it was a suicide attempt.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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Any crime against mass transportation has been declared as terrorism by US for a while now.

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>Any crime against mass transportation has been declared as
>terrorism by US for a while now.Yea, but I think they were thinking along the line of the Midrid attacks.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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>Was it ever established as to whether he was a green card
>carrier??
>
>He could be a terrorist that chickened out at the last
>minute. It has been reported that he has served time for previous offenses including drugs and domestic violence...so if he was illegal, he would have been deported then.And just because he may be in aimmigrant, legal or not, doesn't necessarily make him a terrorist. There are terrorists that were born and bred right here in the USA. Does the name Timothy McVeigh ring a bell?

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I feel deepest sympathy for the families of the people killed in the derrailment, but I think the State is off the mark figuring on charging the culprit with murder. I doubt very much if he intended to kill anyone other than himself, and even more that his vehicle would derail the train in the first place. In a case like that, without premeditation, I don't see how he could be convicted of anything other than whatever number counts of manslaughter. I would thing that would land him in prison for pretty much the rest of his life. It's amazing how little metal can derail a moving train. We had a car drop a brake rigging the other day and a piece of it caught in a switch point and that's all it took. It derailed one wheel and that started the change reaction. Ernie

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Y'all also got to remember it was a light control coach too. SO, not a lot of weight hitting the vehicle ... that woulda popped it. No one would be dead if the train wasnt running in puch mode

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If the guy is suicidal, then he might just plead insanity. Or hang himself in prison with his underwear.

Dependable transportation for West Michigan, If your 1/87 scale.

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>Y'all also got to remember it was a light control coach too.
>SO, not a lot of weight hitting the vehicle ... that woulda
>popped it. No one would be dead if the train wasnt running
>in puch mode Bullshit. It only takes three inches of lift to derail a train.There's just as much of a chance of a locomotive coming off the rails in that sitation as there are of a cab car.The only difference is that if it was a loco pulling and it derailed, it wouldn't have been long enough to get catapulted off of the UP loco that was parked nearby and spear the other passing Metrolink train.I feel sorry for everyone involved, as it was such a fluke the chances of it happening again have got to be 1 in a trillion.DanEveryone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong it is.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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>>Y'all also got to remember it was a light control coach too.
>>SO, not a lot of weight hitting the vehicle ... that woulda
>>popped it. No one would be dead if the train wasnt running
>>in puch mode
>
>Bullshit. It only takes three inches of lift to derail a
>train.
>
>There's just as much of a chance of a locomotive coming off
>the rails in that sitation as there are of a cab car.
>
>The only difference is that if it was a loco pulling and it
>derailed, it wouldn't have been long enough to get
>catapulted off of the UP loco that was parked nearby and
>spear the other passing Metrolink train.
>Isn't it also possible that the locomotive, weighing oh, about 5x that of the cab-control car wouldn't have been derailed?I've heard of locomotives hitting even larger trucks and not derailing, just coasting/braking down the track a few hundred yards or so.Still, it certainly was a freak accident. And horrible for those involved.

Mike F

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>Isn't it also possible that the locomotive, weighing oh,
>about 5x that of the cab-control car wouldn't have been
>derailed? First off, those locomotives don't weigh "5x" what the cab cars weigh. An F59PHI weighs about 270k lbs, while those cab cars weigh about 125k lbs.That said, it depends on a number of factors. Because the truck was sitting lower than a vehicle normally sits when on a level crossing, would it have gone under the pilot as it appears happened here? I think it's very possible.>I've heard of locomotives hitting even larger trucks and not
>derailing, just coasting/braking down the track a few
>hundred yards or so. But that's when it was on a level crossing, not on the roadbed as was the case here. A truck would then be sitting above the railhead, and would get pushed out of the way. But if it was sitting on the ties and roadbed, I have no doubt that some of it would get under the pilot, and possibly result in a derailment.>Still, it certainly was a freak accident. And horrible for
>those involved. Agreed.DanEveryone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong it is.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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>>Isn't it also possible that the locomotive, weighing oh,
>>about 5x that of the cab-control car wouldn't have been
>>derailed?
>
>First off, those locomotives don't weigh "5x" what the cab
>cars weigh. An F59PHI weighs about 270k lbs, while those cab
>cars weigh about 125k lbs.
>
>That said, it depends on a number of factors. Because the
>truck was sitting lower than a vehicle normally sits when on
>a level crossing, would it have gone under the pilot as it
>appears happened here? I think it's very possible.
>
>>I've heard of locomotives hitting even larger trucks and not
>>derailing, just coasting/braking down the track a few
>>hundred yards or so.
>
>But that's when it was on a level crossing, not on the
>roadbed as was the case here. A truck would then be sitting
>above the railhead, and would get pushed out of the way. But
>if it was sitting on the ties and roadbed, I have no doubt
>that some of it would get under the pilot, and possibly
>result in a derailment.
>
>>Still, it certainly was a freak accident. And horrible for
>>those involved.
>
>Agreed.
>
>Dan For what it's worth I talked to someone I know at the FRA(who admittedly doesn't work in that particular area) on my way to work Friday and he said he had heard that it actually did push the Jeep down the tracks a couple of hundred yards and then it caught/tripped on a switch and "kicked" the front of the cab car at that point off the tracks....Yet another rumor.... It'll be very interesting reading when the investigation is over...
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Their was a very similar incident to this in the UK a few years ago, although the main difference was that the driver of the car fell asleep at the wheel and rolled down an embankment onto the line. Again the Driving Trailer (same as a cab car) of a passenger train hit the car (a Land Rover, a large British 4x4) and derailed into the path of a 1000tonne coal train. This time though the passenger train was doing about 125mph and the freight was doing about 60mph. About 10 people were killed, including the crews of both trains, although one man travelling in the cab of the freight did survive. Much of the low death toll was luck more than anything (not very busy train and first class section leading). The man responsible got a terribly short sentence and is not only out already, but is cashing in by selling his story to the press, making him seem like the victim. We then, as someone else mentioned, had an incident where someone parked on a crossing, derailing a train and killing 7. Sadly he was killed, so did not have to live with what he had done, but I would expect a light sentence anyway, manslaughter at the very worst, and would have probably been viewed as a victim in some ways, although the "don't blame the dead man" approach isn't helping either. In both incidents their was a massive tendancy to blaim the railways, not helped by the fact that their had been previous accidents that were their fault, including on on the same line as the first, that involved not only a passenger train operated by the same company, but the locomotive was the same aswell (in both incidents it suffered only minor damage). Their have been calls for expensive systems to detect things blocking the line, removal of all level crossings (although since replacing all with bridges would be to expensive, and closing the roads isn't an option, closing the railways would be the only solution), and even that trains should have seatbelts (something I've seen mentioned in the US aswell).
Anyway, I hope you're justice is better than ours.

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One thing is certain in this whole mess. If that were an F40 or F59PHI at the front of that train, the Jeep would be in little pieces and nobody would have died.

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Have you been living under a rock, or not read any of this thread???DanEveryone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong it is.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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Yes, I've read this thread. The Jeep got wedged into something, which caused the train to "climb" off the tracks. But if the train were led by a heavy F59PHI instead of a light cabcar, then there would be a good chance that the locomotive would simply smash right through the Jeep when it got stuck. It weighs what, 100 tons in comparison to the Jeep's 2 tons. I think Newton's Laws do a pretty good job of predicting what should happen. The cabcar was simply too fragile and too light so it derailed instead. In addition, since that heavy F59 was in the rear of the train, it caused a domino effect of destruction whenever the rest of the train slowed down at a faster rate than it could.

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It's obvious that you didn't read the thread then....Because of where the Jeep was parked, it wouldn't matter what was in front...the Jeep would have ended up underneath the car, and chances are would have derailed it regardless of wieght. Like I keep saying, it only takes 3 inches of lift to drail a car, be it a 25 ton empty grain hopper or a 200+ ton AC44.Your interpretation of Newton's Law's is pretty faulty, as it doesn't take into account several safeguards built into the cars/commuter train system. For example, as soon as the train is put into emergency, the loco shuts down the prime mover and even before that the electricity to the traction motors. As well, because the entire train is MU'd, the loco dumps its air at the same time as the cab car. If you looked at the photos of the wreckage, you'd see that the locomotive is actually behind the derailed cars, not ahead of them.About the only thing you can fault the cab car for is its length...if it was the loco leading, it would have derailed as well, but because it's shorter it wouldn't have caught the UP loco parked in the siding AND speared the other passing Metrolink train.DanEveryone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong it is.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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Ok, I can see why you're right now. I didn't know much about the wreck itself and I didn't know that it only took so little to derail a train. I was just basing my opion on previous knowledge and what "seemed" to make sense to me. I guess I'm just an ignorant person with stupid opionions.

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I
>guess I'm just an ignorant person with stupid opionions. I guess you are.DanEveryone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong it is.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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