Message Areas - "Strange But Weird."

Train-Sim.Com Message Areas

"Strange But Weird."

Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
Previous Topic | Next Topic Conferences General (Protected) Original message
Starlight (186 posts)
Feb-12-02, 01:14 AM (EST) "Strange But Weird." Ok, more strange and slightly silly railroad facts from me. Plus an anecdote from something I saw today.First off, the silly facts:1. When first introduced; the F unit was classified the FT...it came in an A-B set, permanently hooked together. This was not done to add power, rather it was a sly way to get around the union laws that said a fireman had to be carried upon each locomotive. Hooking them together permanently basically made them one locomotive.2. Flanges on the train wheels DO NOT guide the train around the track. Rather, they're there as a safty measure to keep the train from falling off. Wheels are ground at a bevel, and it's this slant that keeps the train on the tracks. Technically, a train could run without the flanges...but no railroad has been brave enough to tempt fate and lawsuit with this.3. Early trains had no brakes. (Locos like the Dewitt Clinton). In order to stop; passengers grabbed onto whatever they could hold onto and dragged the train to a stop. (Picture running out and grabbing something moving 20mph and holding on for dear life)4. Head on collisions are sometimes called Corn Field meets. This comes from the very early days of railroading where signals didn't exist. When two trains were run on the same track; they would race to an arbitrary point (typically marked by some pole or marker). The locomotive and train to cross this marker first got right of way over the other...meaning the second had to back up till it cleared a switch...or even reached the station it started at. Often, the trains wouldn't be able to stop and collide head on...typically in cornfields.5. Up until the fuel crisis of the seventies; most railroads still used a practice from the days of steam to control a train's speed. This meant that the locomotives were run flat out, and the brakes were used to control speed. Flat spots on wheels were very common during this period.6. Starlight is an amatuer writer who has had some of his stories about trains published on the web. Currently he is working on illustrating a fantasy novel for a friend (due published in the fall)...ok, it's not strange, but I had to say it.7. During the 80's, the union pacific railroad experimented with steam locomotives. Yes, they actually did...using them to pull coal trains of all things. I'm not sure what became of the experiment...but I believe it was tied into the AC2000 unit concept.And now the anecdote.Today, while heading to see the house my family is going to purchase; I happened to see a funny incident. A workman for the Ga Central Ry was working on one of the crossing arms. The thing must have gotten broken at some point by a passing truck. While at the red light; I watched him dilligently attach the thing, making sure all the bolts were tight; and then test it. As he did this, it eased down, and then went back up fine...or so it seemed. Why? Because it promptly bent over the tracks like the bolts he'd just attached were hinged. I was cracking up...though it could be worse. (Or funnier) If a train had only been coming by.... Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Strange But Weird. BlakeTyner Feb-12-02 1 RE: Strange But Weird. SHEPLEY1935 Feb-12-02 2 RE: Strange But Weird. Starlight Feb-12-02 3 RE: Strange But Weird. SHEPLEY1935 Feb-13-02 4 RE: Strange But Weird. Starlight Feb-13-02 5 RE: Strange But Weird. black5 Feb-17-02 9 RE: Strange But Weird. Starlight Feb-17-02 10 RE: Strange But Weird. Sleepwalker Feb-13-02 6 RE: Strange But Weird. Vince Feb-13-02 7 RE: Strange But Weird. Starlight Feb-13-02 8 RE: Strange But Weird. stevew Feb-20-02 11

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Messages in this topic
BlakeTyner (111 posts)
Feb-12-02, 02:03 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Strange But Weird."
> This meant that the
>locomotives were run flat out,
>and the brakes were used
>to control speedYa know, I posted that same factoid a while back. Trains mag ran an article about that in the early nineties, though I seem to recall they said this was done to save on fuel costs...I'm probably wrong but I'm glad I wasn't just imagining things...I KNEW I read that somewhere before. Blake Harris
Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
SHEPLEY1935 (210 posts)
Feb-12-02, 07:18 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Strange But Weird." LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-02 AT 07:30 AM (EST)Item #5. If trains were operated as stated it would be at variance with proper methods of braking and train handling that all enginmen are taught! Improper use of the airbrake system can cause train separation and derailment!Item #2. As stated this fact is pure poppycock. One of the AAR Interchange Rules that requires the change out of a Wheel and Axle set is "Thin Flange" which is caused by contact of the vertical face of the wheel flange with the rail. In addition to this rule there are worn wheel tread conditions that also require RR&R of wheels! I would be very interested in knowing the source of these alledged railroad facts. If they were gleened from printed material like Trains magazines, industry periodicals ie; DOT, FRA, AAR and/or official railroad documentation, Railway Age and Progressive Railroad shouldn't the source be properly identified?

Don Shepley-Chicago Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Starlight (186 posts)
Feb-12-02, 10:40 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Strange But Weird." Refrences? Jeeze will I have to start uploading a biblography with these things?Ok the train operation is based off of several sources; including but not limited to the History Channel, Discovery, Trains Magazine, Model Railroader, Encyclopeadia Britannica, My Great Grandfather (section forman for the L&N for 40 years), and some fellow model railroaders who had RL experience.Secondly, The flanges point comes from the web (gimme a few days and I can find that site I grabbed that fact at). The site I read it at had several technical diagrams; along with a few pictures that illustrated this. Plus, it included an explanation on why flange greasers are needed on sharp curves; and why if you listen closely you can hear a loud clank when a car goes into a sharp turn. (The wheelsets slipping to the outside rail which also explains the term known as spalling *when metal on the outside of the rail becomes pressed out of shape from repeated hits...a sympton often seen in metal working companies where heavy presses repeatedly strike a die or piece of metal*)as my favorite game says (Torment)Morte: I'm a Mimir.
Nameless One: What's a Mimir?
Morte: Basically a walking encyclopeadia of knowledge. Tell me something once and I'll remember it for the rest of my life. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
SHEPLEY1935 (210 posts)
Feb-13-02, 05:51 AM (EST) 4. "RE: Strange But Weird." Suggest that you contact the Association of American Railroads
Mechanical Department for more difinitive information regarding
wheel wear conditons. The only reference you have provided that I place any value on is your GrandFather and his 40 years of experience! If he is still with us, and I hope that he is, sit down with him and ask him about what he was confronted with when steam power ran on his track. During my 45 years in railroad mechanical car building, repair and inspection the most challenging work was going to derailment sites and trying to determine the cause. The operating men pointed their fingers at car and track men and they in turn pointed their fingers at each other as the cause of the derailment! Regards, Don Shepley-Chicago Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Starlight (186 posts)
Feb-13-02, 02:01 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Strange But Weird." little bit of advice mate:these posts are but a diversion for me, so if it's not perfectly accurate I don't care.
I'm no rivet (it? can't spell it) counter and don't ever plan to be.My Great Grandfather's name was Jesse Wren...which if you ask any old sod from the L&N (god rest it's soul) they will know him.
Why? Simple. He's the only section foreman in the history of the company that ever had perfect track. Even got some award from the company president.Sadly, he passed away when I was young (eight) at 100 years old. And not because of old age, but because he was murdered.My grandmother, who died just recently at 90, still had a special pass they had given my G Grandpaw that allowed he and his entire family to go anywhere the L&N served by passenger rail for free.
Now, if you'd like to nitpick please, feel free...however, this is all in fun and if you're not having fun; I suggest you check to see if you suffer from corncob. (If you don't know what that means, please don't ask because I really am not up to explaining it. It's a southern thang) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
black5 (121 posts)
Feb-17-02, 10:39 AM (EST) 9. "RE: Strange But Weird." Number 2 is wrong..!!!!Of course it guides it..tight turns..high speed turns and most obviously points (switches..) which way would the train go without flanges??? ...that could be the reason nobody has used wheels without flanges. Same as brain cells..they are there for a reason.!!!
Georges from London. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Starlight (186 posts)
Feb-17-02, 08:50 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Strange But Weird." God, I thought this post died a while back.It is an interesting fact to note that originally trains did not have flanges. Rather they ran in a kind of angle iron shaped like an "L" the track was flanged and guided the train.some of these flanges were on the inside, some on the outside. Some early two axle cars could also do double duty on roads as well; but that's a whole other story.Read the bottom post, it explains everything; along with the fact that a flangeless wheel would only work in theory on a STRAIGHT track.Got it? Good...now LET IT DIE! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Sleepwalker (48 posts)
Feb-13-02, 03:01 PM (EST) 6. "RE: Strange But Weird."
>3. Early trains had no
>brakes. (Locos like the
>Dewitt Clinton). In order
>to stop; passengers grabbed onto
>whatever they could hold onto
>and dragged the train to
>a stop. (Picture running out
>and grabbing something moving 20mph
>and holding on for dear
>life) neither do the ones in MSTS so that aint new. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Vince (90 posts)
Feb-13-02, 03:27 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Strange But Weird." Starlight writes:
<<snip>>2. Flanges on the train wheels DO NOT guide the train around the track. Rather, they're there as a safty measure to keep the train from falling off. Wheels are ground at a bevel, and it's this slant that keeps the train on the tracks. Technically, a train could run without the flanges...but no railroad has been brave enough to tempt fate and lawsuit with this. <<snip>>If this be so then why on every rail I have ever observed (and I have observed many) is the vertical inside part of the railhead of the outside rail on a curve polished from contact with the wheel flanges? Hmmm?Vince Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Starlight (186 posts)
Feb-13-02, 04:34 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Strange But Weird." *SIGHS* Ok, want the technical explanation?It isn't an easy point to explain; but I'll try my best.
There are many physical forces in action on a railroad car; from windresistance, to friction, to momentum (which any modeler knows causes trains to stop so slowly).
These factors cause the wheels to sideslip, move and wobble on a scale not easy to see. When I said that the flanges don't touch; I didn't mean by inches. Rather in hundreths of an inch. That's a small size by any comparasion. Back to the polishing. Polishing occurs when the flange touches the inside of the railhead; lightly abrasing off some of the metal. This is furthered in places where copious ammounts of sand exist; like ling hills and southern states...or even coastal areas. Wheelsets pick up all manner of junk; and in turn transfer this junk to the rails. In an ideal world (which doesn't exist) the flange would not touch the inside of the rail; rather floating over it by approximately 2 to 3 hundredths of an inch. However, in truth, the factors I mentioned before do not always allow this to happen. Something always pushes the wheelsets out of true line; causing them to bump into the flange and then return to a true straight course.If the flanges constantly rode against the railhead's inner wall; then the ammount of friction while low (steel on steel is actually low friction) would cause a high ammount of heat over time. This heat would not be transferred to the rails completely; meaning that it would reside in the wheels themselves. (it is worthy to note that wheelsets are specially designed to vent heat from the critical wheel treads, axles, and flanges to prevent accident...but for argument sake; let's just say this doesn't happen) If said heat could not be vented from the wheelsets; then a train which is traveling approximately sixty mph, encountering no stops, could face a fatal failure of its wheelsets if stress fractures exist. But that's away from topic.On long curves, to prevent this friction from occuring, and in turn causing dangerous heat; railroads often employ a device known as a flange greaser. This unit places a set ammount of grease on the outside flange (the one on the outside of the turn) to ease the friction and make the turn safer. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
stevew (20 posts)
Feb-20-02, 01:05 AM (EST) 11. "RE: Strange But Weird." >2. Flanges on the train
>wheels DO NOT guide the
>train around the track.
>Rather, they're there as a
>safty measure to keep the
>train from falling off.
>Wheels are ground at a
>bevel, and it's this slant
>that keeps the train on
>the tracks. Technically, a
>train could run without the
>flanges...but no railroad has been
>brave enough to tempt fate
>and lawsuit with this. Flange squeal...When watching (and listening) to a train roll down straight track, or even around a gentle super-elevated curve, and you're not hearing that annoying flange squeal, then technically, the bevel of the wheels against the corresponding bevel of the railhead is keeping the flanges away from any contact from the railhead. So technically, under those circumstances, the flanges aren't used or needed.But, overall, to run wheelsets without flanges at all would be absolutely insane and no railroad would ever even contemplate doing such a thing.By the way, without the flanges, how would the hump yards slow those dispatched cars? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Lock | Archive | Remove

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic