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Does a locomotive really need a dedicated power source to be considered to have HEP?I've heard the argument that the F40PH (Minus the F40PH-2C) does not have HEP as the alternator runs off the prime mover. Is there truth to this?"The F59PHI and Genesis are the lamest excuses for locomotives Amtrak has ever operated - accept it and move on. Hug an F40 before it's too late!"
The argument I've heard is that if it's connected to the prime mover it's not considered HEP but rather an 'auxiliary generator.'"The F59PHI and Genesis are the lamest excuses for locomotives Amtrak has ever operated - accept it and move on. Hug an F40 before it's too late!"
"The argument I've heard is that if it's connected to the prime mover it's not considered HEP but rather an 'auxiliary generator.'" Maybe in Canada????But here in the lower 48 if it supplies 480v 3 phase 60hz power for train heating, lighting and AC then it is considered HEP equiped....There are 2 primary methods of producing HEP power. 1. There is a separate HEP "package" consisting of a Dinky (Small diesel) and a generator. This has the advantage of allowing the total power of the prime mover to be applied to traction... It has the disadvantage of adding weight and fuel consumption (sometimes considerable) to the locomotive. Engines that do it this way are typified by the RP39/40 series (GP40 based commuter engines, the final variations of the F40 and some versions of the MP36 along with the F59 series.....2. HEP power is produced by an auxiliary generator/alternator slaved to the prime mover crankshaft. This allows you to have a smaller more compact engine. However, it subtracts power from the amount available for traction depending on HEP load (in the case of the F40 that maybe as much as 700hp leaving only 2300 available for traction in the worst case)... In the case of the F40 it requires that the Prime Mover run at a constant speed to produce the correct frequency of 60hz, 893rpm IIRC or essentially run 8, regardless of throttle position. This produces prodigious fuel consumption and unbelievable noise pollution (hence the F40s nickname "The Screamer")2a. In the case of the Genesis series and some MP36s there is an auxiliary generator attached to the prime mover crankshaft. However since the output is sent through solid state devices to convert it to the correct power specifications the frequency control does not require a constant prime mover speed and thus the load controls the throttle settings on the Genny. In the P42 this is limited to Run5 equivalent Maximum and will run at a lower setting on all but the longest trains on the hottest days.... And since the HEP power pack is so much more efficient it only takes 500hp to produce 1/3 more power than the F40.....Hope this didn't bore you guys???? Chuck Schneider Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO
Good Morning:>Hope this didn't bore you guys???? >Chuck Schneider >Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO Bore me? Its posts like this that I enjoy, please keep the up the great and informative posts.Thanks againChandler
Chuck, I'm a little confused...Your two examples seem to be totally seperate animals, yet the F40 is mentioned in both. Were the later variations (I'm not really well versed in the phases of the F40) so-equipped with equipment in example 1, while the first phases used the stuff from example 2? If that's the case, then would these later F40s not be "jets/screamers"? And just to add to what you said, I believe that even the steam generators in the SDP40F were considered HEP, were they not? Seems to me that any power coming from the head end rather than individual generators under the cars would qualify as "Head End Power"....Blake Harris Manager/Engineer, Jefferson and Cypress Bayou Railway http://www.jeffersonrailway.com
Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies
>Chuck, I'm a little confused... > >Your two examples seem to be totally separate animals, yet >the F40 is mentioned in both. Were the later variations >(I'm not really well versed in the phases of the F40) >so-equipped with equipment in example 1, while the first >phases used the stuff from example 2? >Two actually 3 different "flights" of F40 and then you have the MK rebuilds called F40-3 IIRC or should be...The original configuration and the most common configuration was a 3000hp engine, Shaft Driven HEP generator which took up to 700 hp while making HEP (Note only 1 engine would be in HEP mode and all the others would be be basically in good old Geep mode) = Screamer Mark 1Realizing that the 2300HP net after HEP was a little light EMD's 1st attempt to fix it was to jump the HP up to 3200 so that 2500hp was available for traction... Only a few were built this way, maybe a dozen, though there are recurring rumors that many more were "upgraded" to this rating when shopped.... = Screamer Mark 2the last 2 or 3 F40s and all the MK Rebuilds have lengthened car-bodies to accommodate a skid mounted HEP generator so that they have 3000hp for traction while delivering HEP... Most of the MBTA units and NJT are of this configuration - they don't scream... >If that's the case, then would these later F40s not be >"jets/screamers"? >See above!> >And just to add to what you said, I believe that even the >steam generators in the SDP40F were considered HEP, were >they not? No! HEP connotes head end supplied electrical power!>Seems to me that any power coming from the head >end rather than individual generators under the cars would >qualify as "Head End Power"....Maybe logically but not in common RR usage! Chuck Schneider Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO
To add to Chuck's explanation....Amtrak only used the 3000HP Prime Mover with the shaft-driven HEP Generator on all its F40s.But, to confuse even further , Amtrak used two different HEP generators.The first bunch of Amtrak's F40s, numbered 200 - 229, used a 500kW (IIRC) generator, and had a smaller fuel tank (1500 gallon if i remember right). Visually, these are easily identified, as they had a much different underbody arrangement (fuel tank was toward the rear). The result is obviously a little less HP drain on the prime mover, but also means fewer cars could be powered by the HEP.From number 230 on up, they used a 700kW HEP generator and an 1800 gallon fuel tank. These are the most common (like 170 of them, not counting the ones got from GO), and all have the fuel tank toward the front. This upgrade to the HEP generator was necessary for the Superliners. So here, you have a bit less HP available for traction, but more power available for the cars. Since the long distance trains most often ran with 2 locomotives, one of which would not have the HEP generator powered, the net loss of HP is negligible (two locos combined would give 5300 HP with the 700kW, vs 5500 HP with the 500kW). There were additional refinements to Amtrak's later F40s, but those were in the form of suspension and use of the "Q-fans" for the radiator - no changes were made to the drivetrain, and Amtrak had no distinction between them.The other variants of the F40, as Chuck had listed, were/are used by the commuter railroads.----------- BUZZ -----------
NewEnglandRailFanMember since Jun-18-04 · 1067 posts
RE: HEP
Ok now I got a question:Is it common to have a regular loco perminatly MU-ed with a HEP B unit?For example, Are is the Ontario Northland GP38 that runs The Northlander MU-ed with that B-unit?I say we all go back to the long hood forward GP9's with steam generators on NYC passenger trains -Dave
"The F59PHI and Genesis are the lamest excuses for locomotives Amtrak has ever operated - accept it and move on. Hug an F40 before it's too late!"
