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dekosoft (162 posts)
Feb-01-02, 03:54 PM (EST) "bad moon rising for Amtrak" more gloom & doom:http://money.cnn.com/2002/02/01/travel/wires/amtrak_ap/Book your Empire Builder tix now!Chip
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak SD40T_2 Feb-01-02 1 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak SHEPLEY1935 Feb-01-02 2 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak jfroth1 Feb-01-02 3 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak Matt Vince Feb-01-02 4 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak michigandon Feb-02-02 5 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak Matt Vince Feb-02-02 6 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak SHEPLEY1935 Feb-02-02 7 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak AM_ROAD Feb-02-02 8 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak TAfan Feb-02-02 9 RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak SHEPLEY1935 Feb-03-02 10

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SD40T_2 (221 posts)
Feb-01-02, 03:57 PM (EST) 1. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" hey isn't that a creedence song? "Bad Moon Rising"
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SHEPLEY1935 (176 posts)
Feb-01-02, 04:30 PM (EST) 2. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-02 AT 04:32 PM (EST)Chip,
Congress has given 25 Billion $ to Amtrak during its 30 year life and 15 Billion $ over nite to the airlines who are losing money! Congress has known from the inception of Amtrak that there was NO possible way that the goal of being profitable could be achieved. Hell, there is not one national passenger railroad in existance today that is not subsidized by its government...why would the USA be any different?Congress has and is subsidizing airlines, barge lines, trucking and auto travel so why not a national railroads! Simple answer is polotics and the fact that the American voters do not demand it!In another thread one of our compatriots wistfully wonders if the railroads might not enter the passenger train business. The railroads fought a long drawn out battle to get out of the busines that was destroyed by federal dollars that subsidized the airlines and our Interstate Highway System! In those days railroads knew how to run passenger trains and could not make a dollar...why would they want to try it again? It is the old "Been there and done that" syndrom!Best Regards....Don Shepley-Chicago
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jfroth1 (67 posts)
Feb-01-02, 05:26 PM (EST) 3. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" I absolutely agree, Don. In response to your prior thread where I agree that the freight rr's might pull off a nice coup` if they re-established and reinstated passenger service, why would they WANT to? Public Relations is the prime reason. But PR doesn't pay the wages if it's not subsidized. Move a car of freight or passengers from Chicago to New York costs about the same; which carload will complain they didn't arrive on time, and cause the carrier grief, the freight car or the passenger car?
This is not a condescending post; But without subsidies, I just don't see the freight carriers being interested in reviving passenger service that the current RR execs might not be able to relate to (but their deceased grandfathers can relate to passenger service, you can bet on it...)
jfroth1
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Matt Vince (81 posts)
Feb-01-02, 06:23 PM (EST) 4. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" Oh dear, you poor sods. Some people never learn from others mistakes, particularly politicians. Ours (UK) can just about remember the 'bad old days' of Maggie Marble the Iron and Stone Woman (Thatcher).
I feel sorry for you guys over the other side. Gone so far down the 'We love Cars' road you can't turn back. Why not buy some of these? (see below) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
michigandon (436 posts)
Feb-02-02, 04:35 AM (EST) 5. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" >
>Why not buy some of these?
>(see below)
>
> Wish they would!Seems as though we had to go overseas and show a lot of the railroads over there the proper way to haul freight (the actions of one Ed Burkhardt comes to mind! ). Now, the tables have turned. I feel we need to hire some consultants from Europe and/or Japan to show us the proper way to run a passenger train! Don Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Matt Vince (81 posts)
Feb-02-02, 10:00 AM (EST) 6. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" Hey, Even Burkheadt has his faults. Doesn't like electric locos - even if they run freight services entirly over electric lines (class 6 (60mph) Willisden (London) - Mossend (Glasgow) freights spring to mind). A Class 92 electric loco can haul a freight (full of IIs) from the Tunnel to Glasgow. Burkhead wants diesels to do it. What is the point in that? The lines are electric, the locos are available, Or is it an agenda against Brush (of Loughborough UK) and the 92s? EWS are going to probably have to take more electric locos under their wing, since Virgin West Coast is getting rid of them all. These include only 10 year old Class 90s. No one else is going to use them (Except maybe Anglia)Use Electric locos on Electric lines. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
SHEPLEY1935 (176 posts)
Feb-02-02, 10:51 AM (EST) 7. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" Michigan Don and Matt Vince,Don, when Ed Burkhardt, who I know and worked with when he was on the CNW, started working in the UK rail industry the UK freight business was almost non existant having been taken by the UK trucking industry! Implementing USA rail type freight operations in the UK was, is and will continue to be a real gamble on his part. Wales has enough coal to last for damn near forever yet the UK was buying coal from Spain and shipping it in by boat cheaper than coal could be mined and shipped by rail within the UK. I'm not sure of why and maybe Matt will be able to give us an answer!All of my UK passenger train riding was done on the lines out of Manchester to Penzance or to London and then to Penzance and reverse! I was always impressed with the track structure and the equipment as well as the personnel that I met.Matt, as not all of the existing freight business generated in the UK is on electrified lines I would assume that Mr. Burkhardt stuck with deisel equipment because of its ability to operate on all of the UK rail system and not because of any dislike for electric equipment.With what we read here in the States about the privitization of Brit Rail I'm left with the impression that all has not gone well. Is that due to British politics, Union intransigence and/or
just lousy management! I'll be interested in reading Matt's thoughts on the matter!Matt, based on what I have read it appears that much of the European Union has fallen on bad times, especially the DB in Germany. We in the US are talking High Speed regional passenger lines, 500 miles or less, which is similar to that which you find in Europe and the UK. These lines have had heavy national
(governmental) subsidies that have enabled wonderful passenger service, at least in my experience riding them, but I do not think our politicians will ever see the light of day. Too much
airline and trucking lobbying money out there to overcome.Sorry for the long winded disertation! Best Regads to You All! Don Shepley-Chicago Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
AM_ROAD (18 posts)
Feb-02-02, 09:51 PM (EST) 8. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" Well when I read this in the paper I throw it down and started to swear randomly. But I have realized this like a threat. Member when we were kids and would say "well if I can't have it then I won't be your friend anymore". Its like that. Amtrak will get there money because the USA will realize they need a passenger railroad. ANd relize to make some kind of profit from Amtrak, they need to spend some bucks on them.Welcome abord the Silver Streak! Most relaxing ride between LA and Chicago. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (224 posts)
Feb-02-02, 10:43 PM (EST) 9. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" Hi Don Shepley,I can't speak for Michigan Don or Matt Vince, as they probably know far more about the situation than I, but as a Brit this is my perspective...>rail industry the UK freight
>business was almost non existant
>having been taken by the
>UK trucking industry! Implementing USA If you take a drive on a British motorway, sadly you will see that the vast, vast majority of British freight is transported by road - if the implementation of US freight methods has taken place, it does not yet seem evident!
Everytime I do a long journey by car, it seems as thought there are more trucks & wagons on the road. Over the past couple of days I have made two rail journeys (approx 100 miles each way) - depressingly, I only saw one freight train between both journeys, yet the inside lane of the motorway is permanently clogged wih trucks! I hope his US freight tactics are a success!!>Wales has enough coal to last
>for damn near forever yet
>the UK was buying coal
>from Spain and shipping it
>in by boat cheaper than
>coal could be mined and
>shipped by rail within the
>UK. I'm not sure of
>why and maybe Matt will
>be able to give us
>an answer! AFAIK, Railtrack (which owns the infrastructure and was recently "seized" by the government) charged extortionate rates for track usage. To the extent that an out of service loco can be sent to the repair facility by road, for less money than it would cost to send it by rail... carriages from DMU's have been seen strapped to a low-loader lorry, trundling down the motorway!>I was always impressed with
>the track structure and the
>equipment as well as the
>personnel that I met. I'm curious (not to mention jealous! ) of when this was. Almost without exception, most rail staff (I mean platform & station staff, BTW) I've met in recent years have been rude, discourteous, and unknowledgeable about timetables and operations. There are of course exceptions, but sadly this is more of a pleasant surprise than the norm, in my experience!>With what we read here in
>the States about the privitization
>of Brit Rail I'm left
>with the impression that all
>has not gone well. Is
>that due to British politics,
>Union intransigence and/or
>just lousy management! I'll be interested
>in reading Matt's thoughts on
>the matter! Again, Matt probably has far more insight into this than I can provide, but it has indeed all gone a bit pear-shaped. Railtrack was set up with responsibility for the infrastructure, while train companies paid Railtrack for the track usage. Fine in principle - but Railtrack charged massive amounts, raked in grotesque profits, and failed to maintain, never mind invest in, the infrastructure. The result was several high profile fatal accidents, which in the majority of cases could be attributed to defective or poorly maintained track and /or signalling. After the Hatfield disaster, Railtrack embarked upon an emergency series of repairs, with hundreds of temporary speed restrctions, all over the country. This meant that train punctuality went out the window, and our freight operators couldn't meet their delivery targets any more, thus losing customers to road haulage. So yes, it's down to politics in that Railtrack was set up by the government, but just as a bonus, many drivers are currently on two day strikes, and management at every level (from corporate level, right down to putting in new seats and amenities at stations!) seems to have failed. I travelled through Leeds (West Yorkshire) station yesterday - "organised chaos" would be far too kind a way of describing it!All of which contrasts amazingly with the time I spent a while ago in France and Paris. Reliable, clean, efficient, regular public transport of all kinds, but especially trains! Hardly surprising that their cities, relative to their equivalent size in Britian, have little congestion (although Paris can be pretty bad) and virtually no trucks on the roads!Just my "two cents"! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
SHEPLEY1935 (176 posts)
Feb-03-02, 05:03 AM (EST) 10. "RE: bad moon rising for Amtrak" LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-02 AT 05:04 AM (EST)TA,
Thanks for your thoughts and comments! I road your rails frequently from 1985 thru 1991 and yes I did meet one or two
RR employees who were absolute clods who were "Bone Idle"! Such a wonderful term!My wife and I spent a great deal of time in Cornwal. Newlyn being the last of the major fishing ports in SW England amazed me as all the fish that was caught and shipped out was shipped by Truck. I thought that Penzance would have been ideal to set up a Reefer Road Railer terminal for the hauling and distribut ion of fish to the rest of the British Isles and Europe as well!Well, what the hell do I know?God Bless and Best Regards....Don Shepley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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