Before the Rules… What would you like to see done

Before I start out on the rules which will take effect the weekend after July 4th. I would like to know from people that have been on this forum for at least a YEAR what you would like to see done and improved in the rules and such?Keep it cool, don't start a flame. Start a flame, i'll close it without reason.

Brian E. Bundridge
http://Evergreentracks.tk

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Before the Rules..... What would you like to see done.. [View All], Macster, 10:56 AM, Jun-29-04, (0) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, pacmancreator, Jun-29-04, 11:02 AM, (1) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, chazlee1, Jun-29-04, 11:10 AM, (2) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Dash9_Man, Jun-29-04, 11:15 AM, (3) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, trainmaster_1, Jun-29-04, 11:20 AM, (4) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, bnsfrr, Jun-29-04, 11:24 AM, (6) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, sniper297, Jun-29-04, 11:22 AM, (5) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, highball5, Jun-29-04, 11:29 AM, (7) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, trainmaster_1, Jun-29-04, 11:33 AM, (8) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, chucksc, Jun-29-04, 11:37 AM, (9) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, mjs2101, Jun-29-04, 01:50 PM, (22) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Long Island Rails, Jun-29-04, 11:45 AM, (10) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, kmanc21, Jun-29-04, 11:59 AM, (11) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, CPR_Malice_96th, Jun-29-04, 12:03 PM, (12) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, davereage, Jun-29-04, 11:42 PM, (56) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, BNSF4723, Jun-29-04, 12:04 PM, (13) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, trainmaster_1, Jun-29-04, 12:09 PM, (14) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, OTTODAD, Jun-30-04, 08:53 AM, (61) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, plainsman, Jun-30-04, 09:07 AM, (64) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, muskokaandtahoe, Jun-29-04, 01:11 PM, (15) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, bnsf1959, Jun-29-04, 01:13 PM, (16) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, FireDragonLightning, Jun-29-04, 01:16 PM, (17) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, calr, Jun-29-04, 01:36 PM, (19) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, GMOF3A, Jun-29-04, 09:28 PM, (51) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, muskokaandtahoe, Jun-29-04, 01:20 PM, (18) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, thomil, Jun-29-04, 01:39 PM, (20) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, chazlee1, Jun-29-04, 01:44 PM, (21) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Macster, Jun-29-04, 02:00 PM, (24) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, robertlearmont, Jun-29-04, 01:57 PM, (23) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, cnw8717, Jun-29-04, 02:09 PM, (25) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Macster, Jun-29-04, 02:16 PM, (26) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, SVTS, Jun-29-04, 02:46 PM, (27) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Boweavel, Jun-29-04, 03:12 PM, (28) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, CPR_Malice_96th, Jun-29-04, 03:46 PM, (29) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, mrWM734, Jun-29-04, 04:50 PM, (37) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, chucksc, Jun-29-04, 07:10 PM, (45) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, CP3084, Jun-30-04, 11:33 PM, (89) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Macster, Jun-29-04, 04:57 PM, (38) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, yellowdog, Jun-29-04, 08:55 PM, (50) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Hack, Jun-30-04, 05:27 PM, (84) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, railnut, Jun-29-04, 10:20 PM, (54) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Swissie, Jun-29-04, 03:54 PM, (30) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, bradhig, Jun-29-04, 05:31 PM, (40) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, plainsman, Jun-29-04, 05:47 PM, (42) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, OTTODAD, Jun-30-04, 09:11 AM, (65) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Swissie, Jun-30-04, 04:09 PM, (79) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, bnsf1959, Jun-29-04, 04:12 PM, (33) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, markhyams, Jun-29-04, 08:23 PM, (49) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, OTTODAD, Jun-30-04, 09:02 AM, (62) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, plainsman, Jun-29-04, 04:03 PM, (31) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, MikeF, Jun-29-04, 04:12 PM, (32) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Gixxer86g, Jun-29-04, 04:35 PM, (34) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, BlakeTyner, Jun-29-04, 04:45 PM, (35) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Cell0518, Jun-30-04, 08:17 AM, (60) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, greysprout, Jun-29-04, 04:49 PM, (36) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, ATSF107, Jun-29-04, 05:09 PM, (39) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, dti407, Jun-29-04, 05:32 PM, (41) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, sinclair97, Jun-29-04, 06:42 PM, (44) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, jlucero4, Jun-29-04, 05:58 PM, (43) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, jdtrainman, Jun-29-04, 07:14 PM, (46) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, calr, Jun-29-04, 07:41 PM, (47) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, jdtrainman, Jun-29-04, 07:46 PM, (48) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, calr, Jun-30-04, 10:10 AM, (70) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Mousy, Jun-29-04, 10:16 PM, (53) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, OTTODAD, Jun-30-04, 09:25 AM, (66) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Mousy, Jun-29-04, 09:32 PM, (52) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Chessie System, Jun-29-04, 11:06 PM, (55) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, buzzbenz, Jun-30-04, 00:16 AM, (57) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, yellowdog, Jun-30-04, 06:47 AM, (58) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Stumbl, Jun-30-04, 07:40 AM, (59) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, plainsman, Jun-30-04, 09:04 AM, (63) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, sinclair97, Jun-30-04, 09:31 AM, (67) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, greysprout, Jun-30-04, 09:51 AM, (69) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Stumbl, Jun-30-04, 11:18 AM, (72) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, OTTODAD, Jun-30-04, 09:37 AM, (68) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, westerngy, Jun-30-04, 10:50 AM, (71) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, renevanh, Jun-30-04, 12:20 PM, (74) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, MKT1972, Jun-30-04, 12:14 PM, (73) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, robertreedy, Jun-30-04, 01:15 PM, (75) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Stumbl, Jun-30-04, 01:48 PM, (76) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, renevanh, Jun-30-04, 04:36 PM, (81) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, jdtrainman, Jun-30-04, 02:07 PM, (77) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, GMOF3A, Jun-30-04, 07:28 PM, (86) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, KeltikSylk, Jun-30-04, 04:04 PM, (78) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, sniper297, Jun-30-04, 04:25 PM, (80) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, ATSF104, Jun-30-04, 04:48 PM, (82) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, sinclair97, Jun-30-04, 04:57 PM, (83) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, ATSF104, Jun-30-04, 05:33 PM, (85) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, bradhig, Jun-30-04, 08:55 PM, (87) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, sniper297, Jun-30-04, 10:32 PM, (88) RE: Before the Rules..... What would you like to see do, Macster, Jul-01-04, 00:04 AM, (90)

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Perhaps an application to join the forum...but people could still get around that...--The FBL Commuter Edition!!!!!!---You can never have too much inner beauty. Or socks.
-Matt, 3:25am-Why are we here, and what is our purpose? That, my friends, is the everlasting eternal question. That, and, where's the Honeycomb Hideout?-Creating Pac-Man comics for the humorless people out there

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I favor the three strike rule; after three warnings from the mods the user id should be banned...

Happy Rails,
Chaz
(BNSF Conductor)
<>

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>I favor the three strike rule; after three warnings from the
>mods the user id should be banned... They could then just create a new ID. Three strikes, ban the IP.
-Sam

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But what if they person has a dynamic IP? Say here in Toronto or any part of Southern Ontario that has a ISP like Bell Sympatico were the IP is always changing how would you ban the IP?Mike
Future CPR Locomotive Engineer

Pontiac Grand Prix GTP - Built For Drivers

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Improvement could be made through consistent application of the new rules. An attack on any member is still an attack, and should not be tolerated. The person’s level of contribution or status within the forum cannot be justification for their conduct. The three warnings rule also sounds like a positive enforcement tool.Thank you for taking your time to set up improved regulations, Brain. The forum will benefit greatly and may return to what it once was so long ago...

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Any post has to be locked or deleted gets an automatic 30 day suspension, 3 suspensions and you're out?
A suspension would get their attention faster than a warning, and you wouldn't have to deal with the same individual(s) again two hours later.

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I think the 3 strike rule has some merit, as does the warning/suspension/you're outta here concept.Oh, and maybe free pizza and beer on friday nights?

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>Oh, and maybe free pizza and beer on friday nights?Wouldn't mind that.......just gimme a slice and a Molson Canadian and send it by UPS or Fedex over. Mike
Future CPR Locomotive Engineer

Pontiac Grand Prix GTP - Built For Drivers

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I tend to favor the 3 strike rule as Warning, suspension and Bye Bye!However I also want to see some common sense in it's application.
and the ability to apply for clemency after a suitable period of time...
Heck if we do the suspension thing rigidly then Sniper and I would have joined Kevin in the Great Outer Darkness long before he got there...
Also I believe that you should not be able to join anonymously..All users must have a profile and their E-Mail address verified...
You have to do that to join other boards why not here????A lot of the really bad stuff has come from 1 post flamers with no profile...You don't give Nels a real name and e-mail address you don't get in....You can hide parts of the Profile like the e-mail address if you want, but everyone should be able to see that MSTSsux is really CEO@aurandotcom or that TRAINZbites is really BillyGatesatMicro$oftdotcash... (Just kidding - but you get the idea??????)Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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I agree with Chuck. People who registered here need to be verified! I don't think it is too much to ask of individuals wishing to join this forum.I also agree with Dave Nelson that when you delete or lock a thread, give a reason for it so that we know what not do to. At least in the forums it is not necessary to see who did what, just as long as you know the line that was crossed. Plus, it could be a good idea to have a second chance. After a set period of time, a banned person would be allowed back but with only one chance to remain before perminent banning. I know some people who receive their first 3 strikes probably deserve out right banning, but sometimes people make mistakes.It would be nice if there was a way to add a delay in posting a message. I think many deleted and locked threads come from people who respond in the heat of the moment rather than taking a few minutes to read and then re-read what they are writing. I guess you could add something of this nature into the rules and hope people would read and follow it.Mykel

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I believe we should have a critic’s forum, where if someone is looking for advice on his or hers work, they can get it. This forum could get hot and should be known by every person that goes in there and that there might be some flames. This keeps the crying out of the other forums...like the screen shot forum. Just an ideaCheers
Larry

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First and foremost, whatever rules are posted they must be applied to ALL members equally - no one should get a pass if they violate the rules. Second, first violation a warning, second violation a suspension of 1 to 2 weeks, third violation and you are gone. Third, no off topic posts allowed - screenshots in the screenshot forum, there should be a picture forum for pictures, a non train sim area for those that want that, etc. Off topic posts deleted with no explanation. Finally, there has to be a policy that what a mod says is the law. If there is a problem with a mod, a note to the owner of the forum and then the situation is handled between Nels and the mod in question. As a senior level manager I can tell you that the troops need to know that the supervisor (or mod in this case) has the absolute support of the senior management and any problems within the management ranks are handled off forum in private. This last item will probably do more to get this forum back on track than anything else. If order is restored to this site, then I believe some of the good folks who have left will return to the betterment of the hobby. Been kind of long winded, but I do have one final thought - all the members of the forum need to learn courtesy, patience and the importance of respect for the thoughts and feelings of others.Ken

How did I survive before MSTS

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OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! PS: Did I mention an OFF TOPIC FORUM !!!

Tim Kent – 96th_Malice - Winnipeg Canada

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 11:43 PM (EST)

I will throw in my support for an off-topic forum. It keeps off-topic things out of the other forums and keeps people who post off-topic things from being flamed.I don't really agree that it's a waste of disk space or anything like that, think of it as an investment in keeping the other forums clear of off-topic messages and if if doesn't interet you, don't bother reading it. Sure there are other places on the net where you can post items that are considered off-topic here, but maybe there's something you want to post that is off-topic but you think people here might be interested in anyway. It's a good place for posting jokes for example.A forum which I think is one of the most civil on the net is the forum at www.projectai.com (FS2004 AI traffic group for those not familiar with it). Thye have an off-topic forum and it seems to work quite well there IMHO. Off-topic posts outside of the off-topic area are rare.Dave Reage - Beta Tester
Halifax, Canada

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I'm pretty agreeable with the rules that have already been setup somewhat. Basically it should be:1. Off-topic will have a forum, it will be strictly moderated.
2. Off-topic will NOT be tolerated in other areas of the message boards what so ever.
3. 3 chances. A warning from moderator to user via PM, a temporary ban, a permanent ban.
4. More moderators. We need about 2 just for the Off-topic forum alone, someone who is able to visit at LEAST once a day.
5. NO toleration for flaming. NONE.
6. When flaming or anything otherwise against the rules take place, if the topic itself is still useful, the posts in question shall be deleted with the necassary warnings issued, thereby preserving the civility of the topic.Thats what I had on my mind, just thinking from experience of the other forums I moderate/admin.

Cedarbrae RR - A fictional railroad in rural lands. Coming soon.

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 12:11 PM (EST)

>but I do have one final thought - all the members of the forum need to learn courtesy, patience and the importance of respect for the thoughts and feelings of others. Yes, we all need to have manners so we can co-operate with each others with help or advice or thoughts about the model I would agree on have stricter rules to stop people that are acting like 4 year olds and throwing temper tantrums and starting flame wars to stop.I think with all the recent flame wars this forum is falling apart day by day with each passing flame war. I now take into consideration that the 3 strike rule should be implemented as mentioned by Dave, Chuck and Ken to stop this and tell the person that this is wrong and unacceptable and causes a negative view of the forum.I do agree on an off-topic forum so we can discuss things that aren't about trains and or MSTS but I suggest that it should be tightly looked on so that no other flame wars can start there.....likewise we can still contribute to this forum and to the train-sim community in a polite and mannerly way . Mike
Future CPR Locomotive Engineer

Pontiac Grand Prix GTP - Built For Drivers

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Screenshots
===========
But that should not exclude Screenshots in messages if they illustrate what is being explained or referred to. Pictures sometimes can do that better than words ! O t t o

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Otto,
I agree completely here!
Bob

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I've said it several times, multiple forums, the most important rule for a list is only the moderators get to do moderation.If you go back and look at the worst threads you'll find a substantial number of fights were started when one person wrote something that should only come from a moderator. Stuff like "Shut Up", "Stop posting that drivel", and "I'm tired of you saying xyz". That type of comment falls under the moderators authority to determine what is or is not appropriate and when it's a participant who does that all of the the others feel they too can make such comments and it all quickly spirals downhill into personal attacks.If the mods would simply step in each time somebody tries to play moderator, delete the post, and then post an explaination, which need not be anything more than "Post #nn was deleted because that person attempted to do the moderators job of determining what is proper or improper. Members are reminded that only moderators should make such statements and failure to adhere to this rule will result in your post being removed".A private message to the poster explaining exactly what was wrong should always be sent.For a while, just to get things under control again, moderators also need to step in when a persons character is called into question (a.k.a. an attack). Same as above, simply delete the post and put something out there that says ""Post #nn was deleted because that person questioned the character of another member. Members are reminded that such statements are ALWAYS inapproriate. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in your post being removed".I wouldn't bother banning anybody until enough time has passed for folks to get used to these two rules and I'll wager by then there won't be a need to do bans. Nor delete threads.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under construction>>

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I think 3 strikes and you're banned should be enough. Ken Plaza

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Off-Topic forum would be nice...As well as strict advertising rules, since some people who are advertising are causing some flames. Maybe a Payware ad forum (also strictly moderated)?

Jay
http://www.s95019297.onlinehome.us/

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I support the idea of confirmed registration information. As said above, the user submits a registration form with real name (not sure how you verify that) and email address. User is not given access until email address is verified.Auto registration has always been part of the problem. A person involved in a flame war simply disappears and reregisters under a different name. You can usually tell when this has happened as their posting style doesn't change.Having an "off-topic" zone is simply encouraging off topic discussions and wasting disk space. Let the people who want to post off topic subjects go to the chatrooms and forums where open discussion is welcome.The three strikes, you're out concept is a good one but must be applied with extreme caution. It would be far too easy for someone to not state something clearly and have it misinterpreted. On the first strike, the user should be contacted by email or PM and the posting clarified. If indeed it was a flaming post, give the warning. If it was a badly worded post, give the user an opportunity to set things straight. Sometimes people (myself included) respond to a posting without really thinking it through and trying to understand the other person's views. I guess this boils down to "THINK BEFORE HITTING THE POST BUTTON!"Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 2-- Started)

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A real suspension of an offender when that person heckles and causes trouble to a poster who has not caused any trouble by their post, just to try stiring up trouble in the forums (as we have seen last week).Also this will need to be followed very closely by moderators who are fair and not locking posts and giving warnings to folks who do not start the trouble, but deleting the offending posts...as we have needed here as of late.Paul Fowler

www.mstsgmo.com

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>Start a flame, i'll close it without reasonArbitrary application of rules is part of the problem (e.g., "no reason". State what is not acceptable and stick to it, and always provide feedback as to the reason why you stepped in.You know when you have a pro teach your dog manners they use an approach often called "Don't shoot the dog". What that boils down to is this: if all you provide is negative feedback you get an angry, frightened dog that has no idea of what it is supposed to do. So instead they reward the dog whenever it does the right thing and pretty soon the dog is always doing the right thing.Well you can't hand out dog cookies here but the next best thing is to explain why you are coming down on somebody. Simply stepping in and silently "shooting the dog" may solve one tiny problem but it does not teach anybody else what's right... it simply gets you a lot of angry, frightened members.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under construction>>

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First of all I'd like to thank your for giving us users the chance to have a say in the imminent changes.Second, The "Three Strike Rule" should be applied to ALL users. There should be some tolerance for newbies though(maybe two PM warnings instead of one).Third, when a post (or a thread) is locked, state a reason for it. That makes it easier for users to understand the rules. The ones that do not (or don't want to) understand the rules, will be removed anyway, and the one who want to stay see what is appropriate and what isn't.
Fourth, I would really like this forum to become a pleasant place to post once more. I think that is one post we all agree on.regards
Thomas

"Damn the torpeodoes- Four bells Captain Drayton" - Admiral Farragut aboard USS Harford during the Battle of Mobile Bay, August 5th 1864.

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 01:45 PM (EST)

Again, as I said previously, the 3 strikes rule looks like a good way to go; and to do it as a (1)WARNING, (2)Suspension of posting for 30 days, and (3)BANISHMENT seems the sensible thing to me. Also, you MUST provide a profile and a VERIFIABLE email address to register. Do as other forums do and send an email to the address with a link to click on to complete the registration process.
ALSO: I think the 3 strike rule should apply to PM's also, as long at the person being attacked can show proof to the mods of the attack. I know I enjoy getting PM's, and Lord knows I'm not perfect; I expect some POLITE criticism, it makes me understand and work harder, but not someone who wants to personally attack me, and using my PM to do so. At least this would be another avenue open if problems arise, and by having to show just cause it would keep the PM's available for genuine (and POLITE) criticism.Banning of IP's is another avenue I think could be looked into as a way to enforce the rules. I really don't like strict rules either, but other forums have much stricter ones that these just mentioned, and they have absolutely no problem enforcing them. Goof up, and you are GONE!I do, however, favor an appeal system be implemented with these stricter rules; it gives the defendant an opportunity to state his case to the mods, and if good cause is shown, have his priveleges reinstated. This seems only fair. However, you must be suspended from posting until the appeal process is completed.Just my 2 cents worth.

Happy Rails,
Chaz
(BNSF Conductor)
<>

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Very good guys, keep it up, i'm listening to you all and making notes

Brian E. Bundridge
http://Evergreentracks.tk

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I think that having users read all of the guidelines before posting would be good.
Google, Google, Google!
Simplest answers are always the best!

Howdy!
Bob
E-mail: robertlearmont@realcountryfan.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 02:10 PM (EST)

I feel we need to have some more guidelines for the File Library.1. No more incomplete or buggy routes. Like Jim Duncan's GMO, or John Reagon's Progressive Rail. Have a three strike rule there.
2. Activities that dont work. Have a three strike rule there.
3. No more really fictional stuff, Like some of Jim Englands repaints. Pop Can Brand 86's Boxcars and crap.
4. Respect of copywrights and license's. Chuck and his NALW has had to remove many files because of this. One warning then banning.
5. People that steal other peoples repaints. Should be banned from uploading again. Example the CSX SD60M a while back. One warning then banning.
6. Also perhaps some file library cleaning once in a while. Get rid of some really bad repaints and older stuff that uses default.
7. Files that dont have the proper files in them, Readme, FIlE id.
Have a three strike rule there.Of course thats just my suggestion

Brock Hansen or cnw8717.
Painter of Trainsim stuff.

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Very good Brock, Thanks.

Brian E. Bundridge
http://Evergreentracks.tk

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Sounds good Brock, except it shouldn't be up to the mods to decide what is "crap". Not everyone has as much talent or experience or tools as others. This is a free site, and members should be free to upload thier works. It is and always has been up to the end user to decide what really is crap.As for buggy routes, activites, and other uploads? S*&% happens, mistakes are made, allow for the uploader to fix the problem befroe you send the hitman after him or her. If the uploader does not want to do anything about it, than don't even give 3 warnings, yank the file. I create many activites, all tested, and 95% of the time someone has a problem, it is becasue they didn't read the read me, they are missing a download for a consist, or in a few cases, it has to do with a MSTS bug. As far as the 3 strike rule, it won't fix anything. You can't ban anyone becasue they will just come back. Make it simple:DELETE, DON'T LOCK. Don't give things time to flare up, just delete senstive threads or entire post/topics all together. Byt locking it, all that does is give others time to see what was locked, and site further flaming. Just delete, and move on. If someone bitches about that, delete thier post too. People will get the idea very quickly.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York
www.msnusers.com/AshleyPhotography
www.msnusers.com/cnytrainsWholesale Route Sales, Krispy Kreme, Syracuse NY
Bringing America's favorite doughnuts to Price Choppers in Onieda, Rome, Utica, Cicero, Clay, Fulton, and Oswego NY, even if it takes me 17 hours to do it !!!!!!

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I'd like to see anyone of these 4 things..1: open a General Off Topic room2: 3 strike rule and perhaps a letter to their ISP if a constant pain.3: Heavier moderation, by that i mean moving new posts into their correct forums (if need be) ASAP.4: And this i think is the easiest.. Simply lock stupid annoying threads ASAP , If someones disrupted a perfectly good thread.. DOnt delete the whole thread, Just wipe the offenders post with a note saying so.. And move on people !Catchya's

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>Catchya's Hey man !!Nice to see you around !Now ...I see comments above about dis-allowing certain types of reskins.I can understand not allowing a file to get into the library if there is information missing such as " Read Me's " or " File Id'z "BUTTo disallow fictional repaints ( as much as I dislike most of em ) would be a poor rule & decision.What may be garbage to me, may be amazing to someone else.For example ... if it were my file library the following would NOT make it to the Downloads section ...Union PacificCSXConrailChessieNorfolk SouthernNorfolk WesternSeaboardBNBNSFSanta FeAmtrakPO&N .. ( Jim you reading this ... hehe )EVERYTHING NON NORTH AMERICAN !!Southern Pacific and DRG&W can stayBasically it would be a file library of CN / CP & VIA RailWhy .... cause this is what I consider NOT to be garbage !!Everyone's list of what is garbage will be different however. So this idea of a rule is well ..... Garbage !!Stuff that isn't complete ( such as routes ) should be uploaded to a new section in the File Library called BETA SECTION - USE @ YOUR OWN RISK !! Just a couple thoughtsLater

Tim Kent – 96th_Malice - Winnipeg Canada

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Woohoo! The WM slipped by!

mrWM734
http://vmcs.proboards21.com/index.cgi

HELP OUT THE B&O Roundhouse Restoration Fund at www.borail.org

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 07:22 PM (EST)

I don't have a problem with fictional stuff as long as it's clearly labeled as such... Say in the 1st line of the File_ID.diz....
I like the beta section for incomplete "stuff" and it too should be labeled BETA very clearly in the 1st line of the file description...
That would cover Jim's GM&O.... Originally I thought Young Master Reagan was merely a lost soul needing help.... But you know the more of his stuff I see surface and his inability (or willful choice) to take constructive help or criticism the more I want to set the Kevarc Emulation Bit and play Whack-a-mole with him and his "poison pen activities" - So there has to be some mechanism for purging deliberately uploaded trash from the library...
How I'm not sure.... That's a head scratcher....
BTW, my personal preference would be to not allow any of that fictional stuff from those short-lines above the 49th!
<Ducks and runs for cover!> <VBSEG>Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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1. Off topic forum - There are things other than trains ya know, we are each individuals, have outside interests. Wherein individuals can post, free from ("is this allowed") It would be open access to talk about Tim Kent's life outside of NALW (he has one I think I dunno).2. Specific category in the file library for the fictional repaints (therefor users can go in there if they wish for that specific purpose, thereby not denying the creators a place for them to upload, good for those proto people, and for those that do like to go "wild" every once in a while). 3. A restricted access forum for developers and groups therein NALW, TKW, GNR etc etc, where only submitted group members by group leaders are allowed access.4. Payware section, promotional area. Whether it be MLT, Deko, 3DTrains etc. New product annoucements developments etc can be placed here. No reason to disrupt the whole (eg) screenshot forum with items that are not scheduled out for months to come, let the discussion take place in that forum.5. 3 and yer out, period. This is simple and effective.JP

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I don't think the forum is capable of doing that. I will check after I get back from my job interview.>I'd like to see anyone of these 4 things..
>
>1: open a General Off Topic room
>
>2: 3 strike rule and perhaps a letter to their ISP if a
>constant pain.
>
>3: Heavier moderation, by that i mean moving new posts into
>their correct forums (if need be) ASAP.
>
>4: And this i think is the easiest.. Simply lock stupid
>annoying threads ASAP , If someones disrupted a perfectly
>good thread.. DOnt delete the whole thread, Just wipe the
>offenders post with a note saying so.. And move on people !
>
>Catchya's

Brian E. Bundridge
http://Evergreentracks.tk

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>I don't think the forum is capable of doing that. I will
>check after I get back from my job interview. Hmm, I wonder if it's time to consider changing forum software? Now, this is not one of those "Which type does everybody like?" or "Which software has the coolest interface?" questions, but rather a "Which software will allow us to accomplish the goals that we have determined are important?" question. At any rate, good luck with your interview!! Oh, BTW, I would encourage strongly that people begin to use their own names in the forums. I don't know if this should be a "rule" per se, and I don't think people should have to have their real names be their handles, but it would be helpful and more "considerate" if people put their names (in some form) in their signature. I don't know--just thinking "out loud" here.

Clayton

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Many forums that use PHP through a MySQL backend should be able to handle the above, plus tend to be more stable, faster, and easier on the bandwidth. One of my favorite features of a SQL-based system is the search function. Instead of waiting - say, 2-minutes for results on one forum, you would only wait 2-seconds or so over the entire forum db. Why a CGI-based board with this many members is still being used here is a mystery.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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We could possibly look at the forum software, again, that would give you the necessary tools and also, possibly give us the ability to can message bases we don't care for when reading new. I also agree with the 3 strikes thingy.

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 04:02 PM (EST)

Just my 2c:- Three strikes approach seems only fair. Plus as "error proof" as it can be (I don't think any innocent user will get three warnings due to misunderstandings).
- In any case, an explanation as to what happened/why it happened should be given. This can be a standardized text, such as "post deleted for improper wording" etc. This hopefully prevents us from seeing another poster asking what happened to post xyz, starting it all over again, and perhaps even an innocent newby getting his first strike for just asking...
- Don't forget to extend the three strikes policy also to the contents of peoples' signatures. I think I've seen a few posts where political statements, or pro RR X and contra RR Y statements in the sig have started flames.
- What about this scenerio: No more anonymous users tolerated. All users, including the existing ones, need to re-register giving their full name & address to the webmasters upon registering, with verification of e-mail address provided. Nicknames in the fora tolerated, but full name has to appear in the profile. For privacy and antispam reasons, users can choose to hide their e-mail and snail-mail address to other users. Moderators and webmaster can see full details.
- Be careful about Brock's suggestion about "policing" the file library for crap. For example, some of the ficticious routes (PO&N, FBL, ADFRR, Ohio Rail, Canton) and the associated equipment are the most sought after items for many users, and the FBL, Canton and the two RRs for Ohio Rail (WV&O and OR&W) have inspired authors to turn out more models for them than for many a prototypical road - except for class 1s, I'd say.
Prototype or fiction, modern days or late 1800s, electric or diesel, streetcars or double-stacks, pocket routes or 500mile networks, electrical failure sounds or sitka spruces in the wind, this will always be a matter of taste - and only the market can decide what deserves its place in the file library and what is not wanted. I could only think of one way to achieve this: Once every six months to every year, in an intervall changin randomly, the webmasters would have to sort all file library entries by the number of hits they got, and delete the least sought-after 10% of files. Any other policy over content will certainly discourage some users and authors...Last but not least: I hope all mods maintain a good common sense and will make a difference between how they react to the posting mistakes of an 9-year old over-enthusiastic MSTS user and a grown person's personal attacks on anyone not following his lines of thought... Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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I don't want fictional stuff banned. Granted there are a few fictional trainsets and routes I don't like but I wouldn't want them removed.

Riding on Supertrain.

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Hi Swissie,
I hope we reconsider dumping anything from the library! For example, if a quality skinner posts a very well done version of a Texas & Pacific or Wabash item, it may not get a lot of downloads, but may be cherished by those that love those old lines. A Baldwin diesel may not get the traffic of a Dash 9, but it is just what I wanted in that 1952 activity. Such a policy would limit the projects of skinners to exclude unpopular roads or equipment, even though it may be just what others want. Besides, the amatuer Pink PolkaDot SD70 may get more downloads than a well done Missouri Pacific gondola.
Also, this might be unfair to foreign items. Would a Romanian route get as many downloads as a line in Illinois or New York?
Bob

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You forgot the best "Fictitious" route of them all, Lukas, the SEAVIEW !!! As for 9 year olds, it they have not been taught manners by their parents or peers, then this Forum could be a good place of learning how not to talk to others ! O t t o

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Hi Bob and Otto,upon reconsidering - yes, this "edit your own post the morning after button" would be nice - I agree. The 10% rule will not work on a forum as diverse as this one. Besides, I do personally not have an issue with the number and nature of uploads - when it doesn't appeal to me, I don't dowload it. Only reason to remove an item would be if it positively and objectively is faulty, i.e. if it is proven not to work, which would perhaps need to be based on a reporting system by trusted users. After all, we do not want the trolls to move on to "attacking" specific peoples uploads with made-up claims of faulty uploads when they cannot attack the authors directly. Hmmm, I guess we won't find 100% perfection with any system, but it is good that action is directed to more moderation.And of course, SV deserves the merrits of being in that list of sought after ficticious downloads, too. Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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Very good, Brock. I agree also.Ken Plaza

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>I feel we need to have some more guidelines for the File
>Library.
>
>1. No more incomplete or buggy routes. Like Jim Duncan's
>GMO, or John Reagon's Progressive Rail. Have a three strike
>rule there. I have to disagree. What constitues an "incomplete" route? Like model railroading, no train-sim route is really ever complete. Always more to add. I will agree with the buggy statement. Of course bugs are a fact of life, and a patch or two can be expected, but we should encourage more thorough testing of routes before they are released. Don't install that last signal and then click on 'upload' without any testing.I don't think a three-strike rule is necessary for the file library either. Just delete the offending files. Unless they are infringing on copyright or uploading viruses, of course, then the user should be banned, maybe immediately if it is a flagrant violation.Mark

Moffat Road Tabernash to Phippsburg
All track complete
Currently working on Mtracks

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Better still would be for all applicants to be issued with a copy of the Rules they have to agree to before their application to join is being approved, the same way as with Software Agreements EULAs. No excuses then !O t t o

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I like the idea of email verification, and of PM warnings. I would also Like to be able to delete your own post within 12 hours. I have posted a response, went to bed, reread it the next morning and wished I could delete it, either because I misunderstood the thread or just said too much in the heat of the arguement. Well meaning folks will often correct their own problems.
I also like the idea of just deleting offending posts within a thread rather than destroy a whole thread. Many good informative items attract one nut with a personal agenda, just quickly rid the thread of the bad stuff and go on.
Bob

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So far I have to agree with most things mentioned so far. But, here's 'my two cents'...Flame wars: None allowed. The best way to keep these from spreading is, as Barney Fife would say, "You've got to nip it!!! Nip it in the bud!!!"Three strikes: This is a tough one for one reason. Although it sounds plain enough, just *what* is a 'strike'? If I were to post some long, vulgar message about someone elses supposed qualities, sure. But what if I just accidently stepped over the "moderator's job" by suggesting a message would get a better response in a different forum, or to search the archive for a similar discussion? Just trying to be friendly, but oops. This is the problem with a lot of 'mandatory sentences' and 'zero tolerance'. Maybe it should be lessened to something like 'three strikes in 30 days' (or 6 months, or whatever)?? It would 'forgive' a momentary lapse if they are few and far between.Criticisms of peoples works: Another difficult one. Without knowing more about the artist/author, it is difficult to know what's appropriate. Certainly a young/inexperienced person's first attempts will not be up to some folks standards. But some *gentle*, *constructive* criticism, along with some praise for the attempt might be welcome. But the criticism must be focused on the work submitted, not the individual that submitted it (e.g. "that is the wrong color scheme if you're trying to model the old C&O, check xxx reference", or "nice weathering around the wash-out plugs, but I don't think they should be on the tender". *not* "your choice of colors su**" or "you don't seem to know anything about GE EMD's")

Mike F

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Off topic forum.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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Well, I know several people in the thread who've been here as long as I have (and longer) that well remember the good-ol'-days of the year 2001 Train-Sim.com. It's rather sad that it has to come to this, but such is the nature of the beast.My suggestions:
1) 3 strikes and you're out is a good plan. BUT wrap your mind around this idea: a banned list. That way, anyone who comes along wondering why so-and-so was banned can see. Example here: http://www.fridaythe13thforum.com/showgroupsban.phpGranted, there is a lot of humor in the reasons on that list, but that site is geared towards under-25's. Application of the same concept without the teenaged comments would be a good thing.2) More moderators. Yes, I know the cons..but methinks the pros outweigh them. They sould be people who are HERE every day, like Mac, and have BEEN HERE long enough to have a feel for most of the posters as well as appropriate subject matter. And though I love a lot of our more vocal members, they should be people without a history of personal beefs with other posters. Also, it might be a good idea to break up duties some. I know Brad was saying in a recent post that he'd locked it twice and it got unlocked both times. A simple solution to mod "turf wars" (for lack of a better term) is a private, invisible forum for mods ONLY. Regular posters cannot even see a link to it. That way, the moderators can discuss topics they've locked, people they're watching closely, etc. (Again, inspired by the forum linked earlier in this message. 99% of the posters don't even know such a mod forum exists.)3) I like the idea of an off-topic forum. Someone objected, saying that off-topic discussions should be kept on appropriate sites, but my rebuttal is that I enjoy talking to YOU GUYS about things. Sure, I could go to a random message board and start a discussion, but I wouldn't get to see what Chuck thought about it, etc. My point is that we should have a place to talk about our cars, or nuclear physics (a discussion that enlightened me, even if it was completely unrelated to trains)4) Be consistant. Speaks for itself.and finally...5) The nuking of threads is probably a bad idea. Lock it up, with a reason, so that the rest of us can see what line was crossed and where. Deletion leads to speculation and almost always bad information. The rumor mill, we've all seen it. Thanks for getting our input Brian. Blake Harris
Manager/Engineer, Jefferson and Cypress Bayou Railway
http://www.jeffersonrailway.com

Vice Dean, Limbaugh Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies

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I agree with ya. Good Idea. I've heard of such an idea (and thought of it myself and you basically took the words out of my mouth ), and I want to think it worked out ok.
PLEASE Visit->

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If I may:1. create a fictional section. Some of them may be fantasy's, fictional sounds better. While Nels (?) is the only person that controls the File Section, beta items and items from people with a track record of buggy uploads should be moved into beta section until it has been demonstrated that it works. Just because MS issues patch after patch, there is no reason that should continually happen here. Get some people to test it before it is uploaded. I have never seen the number of patches that some of the files here have. They would not be allowed to upload until they could demonstrate that they can trusted. I believe UKTrainsim has this. It would be hard to determine a upload is bad. There are those that bad can be identified right away and removed, but they say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This would also apply to those that cannot comply with the terms of the original modeler/skinner. There upload privledges would be suspended for them. You cannot delete files because they are not downloaded, except with the permission from the creator of that file.
2. I know of no forums that require home address and phone number. That is not a requirement in any forums I have seen. The verifiable emailaddress worksd for most forums.
3. 3 strike and you are out. A good idea, but if you do that the 1st strike should be appealable. They would either learn to take their time when posting to be accurate or that they need to think before they post. By the 3rd strike, they should hve understood the rules and failed to follow them, it is too late for them. Signatures should be exempted except for extremely vulgar ones, people do need a little room to state their views. I find very religous ones offensive, but it is not my place to tell them that their religion is the right one, just as they have no right to tell me mine is the wrong one. The same goes with politics. If it bothers another poster, they need to take it in stride, after all, theirs may offend someone also.
4. Locking of theads, editing of posts, etc Locking of thread should be accompanied by an explanation, if possible. Deleting posts works most of the time, but there may be usefull information in one of the posts, edit it. When a mod edits a post, he should place his name in the edit.

Frank Martin

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I support
1) The off topic forum
2) 3 strikes you're outta here
3) The file library rules suggested by cnw8717*
4) Tim Kent's Beta Section
5) Locking the thread with a reason and
6) Sending an appeal to the moderator who striked you if it is your first offense (a.k.a. "strike")*I believe Mr. Kent's beta section should be used instead of Brock's first rule.

Zach Lybrand
President and Founder of the Fort Worth Locomotive Shops
All we need one more custom sounds & cabs and one more modeler! PM me if you want to apply!
ATSF 107 http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=48426

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I also think there should be more moderators. I don't know if DCForum is capable of this, but on some boards there are a few types of moderators, example:Administrator
|
Global Moderator (AKA Super Moderator, same forum powers as admin, such as banning usernames, etc...)
|
Regular ModeratorI think there should be AT LEAST one global moderator on the forums.
That's just my opinion,Greg Zoll

Greg's MSTS Forum @ http://www.msts.bb2.org
Now offering forum space for MSTS locomotive/activity/wagon creators! PM me for imformation.

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I like your opinion Greg.Mike

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 06:01 PM (EST)

Here are some of the changes I would like to see:1) Off-topic forum: If OT posts aren't allowed in the general, forum, than I believe that another forum should be made specifically for OT posts. There are many important and interesting topics other than trains that members would like to be able to discuss with each other.2) Three strikes rule3) Require name and e-mail verification when registering.4) Give a reason for why a thread was locked. The reason why a thread is locked is not always obvious, and by posting a reason it can serve as an example of what not to do. Along the same lines, don't delete threads, but instead use them as examples.5) Give a warning before a thread is locked. This gives the people involved a chance to cool down and turn the thread back into a decent discussion.Jordan L. Edited for spelling

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Somebody finally mentioned the right of appeal but I'd like to take that one step further. The appeal should NEVER go to the person who banned/killed/locked the user: It should go directly to Nels or, as some have suggested, a global moderator.I'm concerned why we need "new rules" when if the existing rules were applied we would probably be just as well off.Regulating isn't the answer here. Educating is the answer.The biggest problem I see is that people type when they're angry, upset, feeling threatened, etc. It is very easy to type out a fast, angry response but when someone goes back and thinks about it they may find that they can't believe they responded in the manner they did.If 90% of the people who flame or respond in anger would stop and try to imagine themselves having the conversation with someone face-to-face they'd NEVER say some of the things that get typed here! It's a matter of self-restraint, folks.Type something in anger or with strong terms and you're very likely to get the same type of response notched up a gear. Same situation with egging things on.... Personally, I think that NELS should set down the user guidelines, not the individual moderators. When I see moderators involved in flame wars (and I'll include myself here!) it becomes a matter of credibility. Nels has managed to stay out of all of this and, therefore, is the only person qualified to really impose new guidelines.JBD

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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Some have said don't allow fictional routes in the libray. Why not? Two of the best routes ever created are fictional. Those are Port Ogden & Northern (all versions) and Sea View (again, all versions). A route doesn't have to be prototypical to be good and conversely, a prototypical route is not, by definition, good.Brian, I hope you're not in this alone. You've got a huge task in front of you. It is impossible to please everyone. However, if order can be established and maintained for a period of time, then perhaps things could be relaxed SLIGHTLY. Good luck, my friend.BTW, (OT) I may be up in your fine city for a week later this summer to attend an IBM training class. I'll let you know.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 2-- Started)

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Cal:I'd love to pick your brain on route-building techniques. Heck, I'll even buy your lunch and take you rail-foaming! When will you be in Missouri?JBD

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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Thanks for the offer, Jim, but don't have any idea when or even if I'll be in Missouri. Goin' on a Hawaiin cruise in September. Thinking about touring the East coast next year with a stop in Atlanta.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 2-- Started)

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Hey Calr, don't forget the Full Bucket Line! All routes should be permitted. If you don't like it, don't download it. Very simple.
All route type or rolling stock roadname should be discriminated against. Perhaps a new section in the File Library: Fictional Routes?I am in favor of the 3 strikes/suspension/ban rule and the banned users list. Maybe the "hide user profile" option should be disabled.

SD40-2: the best locomotive EMD ever made!
______________________________________________
Fort Worth Locomotive Shops
ENG & WAG Technician & Lighting Engineer

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I can promise you that you will have a GREAT time in Vienna, Cal ! The people are friendly and the food is excellent, not forgetting drink ! Hope the weather is going to be fine and you are not stuck in your hotel all day and will have some time for Sightseeing ! Take Care, O t t o.

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I would like to see that e-mail addresses don't show as a link.

SD40-2: the best locomotive EMD ever made!
______________________________________________
Fort Worth Locomotive Shops
ENG & WAG Technician & Lighting Engineer

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Here is what I support!1. Have an OT Forum (so that People can let off steam there not in the other Forms)2. Have more Moderators3. Add a Fiction Section to the file library4. The 3 strike Rule (After 3 Strikes Ban the User and/or IP)5. If needed change the forum software (To help in-force the 3 strike Rule)6. Have it so that you must have a REAL email and require you to Activate your account...... "Sleep like a kitten on
Chesapeake and Ohio Lines"**Thanks Chessie system Photo Archives for the pics!!!

PEACE OUT

Chris

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Well, here's my thoughts on this:A. Off Topic Forum - GOOD!
B. Policing File Libraries - BAD!
C. Three Strike Rule - well... Don't really think it'd work...Expansion:
A. OT forum is A Good Thing because it really allows the community to grow as "friends", methinks. Ya know, kinda "gettin' to know ya' better" type thing.B. Policing the File Library is, of course, up to Nels... One BIG reason for No Police is that the duties of policing the File Library would fall on Nels himself. Let us not forget, Nels also runs flightsim.com, which DWARFS this place! The poor guy probably wouldn't have time to sleep if he had to test everything to see if it works or not.
A Beta or Fictional section sounds good, but if whatever being uploaded is not clearly labeled as such, then guess who'll have to check each and every one for CONTENT - yep, Nels again! Now, I don't see any harm in creating a Beta or Fictional section, and if whoever uploads clearly labels it is such, then it should get in there. But that would have to be an "on your honor" system.
Policing for "crap" is not a good idea in the least. THAT would open a whole can of worms i don't think we want to get in to. NO ONE can say positively what is garbage or not. If something does not work correctly, some of us here know what we need to do or who to contact to get it to work - i don't think those people should be denied access to try.
I think the best we could do is to establish some uploading "guidelines". Some "minimum requirements" for what should be in the readme. NOW - if that is NOT followed, i still see no reason not to allow it in the libraries. What it WOULD do, however, is make for an easy and quick way for users to give a file a good "once over" for those who are deciding whether or not to download it. Kinda like how it is a good idea to include a pic of a train you're uploading - some people (myself included!) will skip right over a file without a pic.C. Three strike rules, user verification, etc all SOUNDS like a good idea. BUT - there is absolutely NOTHING to stop someone from creating a free email account, signing back up as "John Doe" or something, and then go right back to stirring up trouble. Such as complaining that some person they don't like needs to get a "strike", even if that person has done nothing at all. Honestly, i think the better solution is simply a few more mods to enforce the existing rules, which already address most of what this forum needs. Yes, there is the whole thing about "too many cooks spoiling the pot" or whatever, but really - with 2000 users, even 20 mods would STILL only make up like 1% of the user base. Now i don't think we need THAT many, but definitely a few more.BUT - ya'll want to know what i think is the REAL secret to keeping the forums in check? US. The users of the forums. WE need to set a good example, WE need to learn to ignore and just alert potential flame bait. If everyone would realize that their opinion is nothing more than that - an OPINION, NOT a FACT or a truth - then i think we'd REALLY be on the road to "recovery".Even LONG wordy posts - like, oh, THIS ONE - are nothing more than one person's opinion! I pesonally and honestly expect it to be taken as nothing more.WHEW! Carpal Tunnel, here i come! ----------- BUZZ -----------

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>B. Policing the File Library is, of course, up to Nels...
>One BIG reason for No Police is that the duties of policing
>the File Library would fall on Nels himself. Let us not
>forget, Nels also runs flightsim.com, which DWARFS this
>place! The poor guy probably wouldn't have time to sleep if
>he had to test everything to see if it works or not.This may be an unpopular idea, but if Nels can't handle the "responsibility" of enforcing good rules and quality management, maybe it's time to turn over the reigns to someone who can? I understand he's busy with flight-sim, but why should we (and this site) suffer? Are we (and this site) not as "important" or "valuable" as the people over there? Once again, thinking "out loud" here.

Clayton

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If every file was to be tested, you would need a platoon of GOOD beta testers willing to spend a LOT of time, and I mean a LOT of time testing.And even then, I wouldn't want them making my mind up for me. Nor would I like to find, as a beginner that my upload has been culled. I would think it would be difficult to become a non beginner if no-one could take a look at my work and help me find the flaws.
(this is where our own attitudes have to be self regulated)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a painter or modeller and the work I do create is devoted to vNERR.
But that's because , being a beginner is unsafe here }> .Email verification is about the only verification you will get, at least from me. You will NOT get my home phone and address. I would shut my computer down permanantly first. Also, as far as that goes having a teenager give that information may make parents very upset indeed.3 strike rule will work, but it's like trainsim, you have to be consistant, continually. And you have to maintain. It's a pita job, but you have to do it. It was the worst part of adminning a board I have ever done, uhg. Still had to do it though.I've made some friends here, and some almost friends . If all we talked about was trains there would be fewer of them. An off topic forum is HIGHLY recommended. This will also make for less posts in the topics forums that will have to be culled, it will save work in the long run.
You can set the flame levels in the offtopice forum by how many extinguishers you get , right Mac? lolBeing a mod is highly subjective. You gotta have as many GOOD ones as you can get, and you have to have communication (their own board) between them. If they aren't on the same page you lose too much consistancy.In summary : Off Topic Board = Good ( as Malice would say )
File library censorshiop = Bad, I can make up my own mind thank you
Mod forum ( If its not already there )= necessary.

www.vnerr.com

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Hi,
Although I largely agree here, I do want to disagree on a few points.
First I don't think being a beginner here is unsafe. It is just the way some folks approach being a beginner. I remember my first skin which was absolutely awful. I clearly labeled it as really awful and strangely enough it was so bad and ugly, someone decided to use it in an activity. It ran well though for that time. I never got better than below average as a skinner, but a few things have over 1000 downloads. If I can upload a file and it survive, well, anyone that is sincere can do better than me.
The fact that even still some of my bad skins get downloads says that even bad stuff may have interest. And I almost never put a file in my folder without reworking much of it. I don't really care if the smaoke isn't right, or even if it has a cab that doesn't work, I will probably install my own preference anyway. If a route has activitiies that work poorly, I don't care, I will mostly write my own anyway. Don't throw it out, someone here knows how to make it work.
My thoughts,
Bob

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Brian,There have been some very good suggestions so far; however, I am concerned that even with the most perfect of rules in place,there will still be a problem in their execution if:A there are long periods without there being a moderator online with the powers to delete, and lock.B the alert button is less than reliable (as
evidenced by your comments in that they don't always work).C there are an insufficient number of moderators to fill the gaps.In other words: are rules enough?Mike

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While having a mod on 24/7 is a good thing. Decisive action by a mod can overcome not having one 24/7. That and the willingness of the owner to BACK the mod will make it clear that unssemly behavior will not be tolerated.

Frank Martin

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I was being facetious about the "unsafe" smiley just didn't show correctly :s again , lol
sorry about that

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Having added my "2 pennies" worth here and there or should I say "Groschen" , I would like to congratulate all who have contributed in this thread, demonstrating that not all is lost and these Fora can return to an enjoyable place for meeting other Train Simmers, digging into a bottomless mine of information and getting help when needed.Looking forward to many more years of being a part of it !!! Take Care and continue to have FUN Train Simming ! O t t o

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Lets see rules and more rules is that the cure.My thoughts to this that has gone on way to long now.
First and formost,lets not lose the members that have contributed so much to the sim but lets not also lose site that we all were newbies at the sim so think before posting and remember that you were a newbie at one time.For first timers look and think first.There is a search tool maybe use it first and then if you can't find the answer then ask.
Learn something new today good then one has made a step forward.As to becoming a member on here one thing that should be done is certification as to the e mail and a name NO anonomous members aloud.
Maybe with the forum a set up for preview first before posting so that one can reread or is forced to as in it might be something that just doesn't come out right.Like all those that know Kevin well his spelling..he needed spellchecker but that was kev.
Having more mods might that be the answer or is the answer when something starts stop it,like now and give a reason then a PM by the mod to the person with an explanation and 1st strike notice.
Bob,Cal and others have come up with some good ideas.One thing I will say is that anyone trying to sell payware then maybe buy a banner and use that tool.
Lets all think before posting. Just Rollin Down The Tracks

Dale

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My opinion:Don't stop hosting/discuss fictional routes. Builders who building fictional (like me...) have got a lot of fun building the routes, and I think the fictional routes are better, just because real routes mostly have to be exactly the same as in the real world, and that isn't possible in MSTS.I've seen one or two people here, writing that only american and/or pacific routes are good, all others are crap. Did this people ever drive european routes, freeware or payware?? There are some dutch routes, like 'Utrecht - Arnhem' or 'Amsterdam - Zaandam - Hoorn - Enkhuizen' which are very, very nice. The same about cars/trains. Ever seen the wonderfull (well... almost...) NS (Nederlandse spoorwegen -> Dutch railways) trainsets created by Chris Longhurst? Next thing: Please be very carefull with banning and so on. I've been banned from a forum, because of misunderstanding and because the admin/moderators didn't like 'my way of reaction'. Sounds idiot, but happens.
Making a list of banned people with reasons is a option, but the reason should be something which is really a reason. just banning people because there are 'idiot' or 'crazy' isn't a reason. (I saw this on the page which is behind the link a few messages above...)The next point: In the lower left corner of every message, you can look up the IP of the writer, and see which IP's he uses. The IP adress of a induvidual is a private thing, and shouldn't be visible to everyone. I think this should be removed/not visible.Last but not least: This forum needs more, no MUCH more moderators!! There are to few around here now, and the most of them aren't here at least once in two or three days.Well, that's my opinion.Regards,RenéP.s.: don't mention the date of registration, I had to reregister after the forumsoftware kicked out my account a week or two ago...
-----------------------------
Zoveel leuke dingen, zo weinig tijd...

www.mstssite.tk

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-04 AT 12:16 PM (EST)

I wish you best of luck Brian. Nuking the whole thread is not a good idea just remove the offending post, and then give the reason why, it won't lead to speculation that way. My thoughts on procedure for offensive posts in the forum are:
1st offense: 14 day suspension
2nd offense: 30 day suspension
3rd offense: minimum 6 month banStolen works in file library:
Immediate removal of files with a request made for all people that downloaded them to please delete them from their PC. The person who uploaded the stolen work should be given a minimum 2 month ban from the forum if they refuse to apologize and acknowledge the original author.Just my thoughts and once again good luck.Edit: I see nothing wrong with off topic posts myself. 1972

http://www.trainsimstuff.com"I am the game and you don't want to play me." Lemmy Kilmister--Motorhead

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Brian, I'm venturing out of my territory and don't even know if it works the same outside the Specs forum, but there it is possible for the mod to delete any parts of a message (except the sig line) and add anything in. In other words for a 'deletable' message with other good posts or even information in the same thread, it might be possible to simply delete the offending material, add <SNIP> then reason for deletion and the thread could go on as normal. Just a thoughtRobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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renevanh ,
the person who said all non NorthAmerican stuff was bad was only making the point that what one person thinks is garbage is another one's definition of gold.
www.vnerr.com

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>renevanh ,
>the person who said all non NorthAmerican stuff was bad was
>only making the point that what one person thinks is garbage
>is another one's definition of gold.
>And I totally agree with him/her (?).
My reaction was a bit to violent. I'm sorry for that.
I read it before here and on many other places, and it came all out now. Sorry again.Regards,RenéP.s.: We better keep Monty Python's Holy Handgranade out of this, it will only make a mess of the forum... -----------------------------
Zoveel leuke dingen, zo weinig tijd...

www.mstssite.tk

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Questions and thoughts (after reading on and on)...Question: Hasn't this thread pretty much run it's course? My Thoughts...3-Strike Policy: I don't necessarily agree with the "3 strikes, you're out" as an absolute. How would you deal with someone who has a bad day once out of six months or longer? What happens when, after a couple of years or longer, this person hits the magic number of 3 (Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less.)? Absolutes will not serve us well. How about "... within 6 months" or some such?File Library: Leave it alone, period. People are perfectly capable of judging what is good, bad, junk, drivel, etc. Leave the file library up to Nels. By doing so nobody can be accused of deleting somebody's file for personal reasons. It's a bad idea to go down this path...I'm all for having a user-defineable parameter applied to the disclaimer message. When I first posted alpha/beta versions of ATSF and GM&O those files were accompanied by a custom "this is alpha test" style of message on the accept/reject page. A simple note to Nels accompanying the upload can make this happen....General Comment:There are obviously a lot of issues that we are addressing but let's focus on the main issue: Cleaning up our act. It's up to each of us to police ourselves. Never reply to someone in anger. Walk away from the keyboard and come back an hour later to compose your response. I can't imagine ANY of us dealing face-to-face with each other as some of the posts are worded.And, in conclusion.... Lest we take ourselves MUCH too seriously..."And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu... <Skip a bit, Brother...>

"And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my
sight, shall snuff it." -- Armaments, Chapter 2, verses 9-21.Amen. King Arthur: Right. One... two... five.
Galahad: Three, sir.
King Arthur: Three!And the people all said..........
AMEN!JBD

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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Agreed..I can be done, as it was done already last week. I'm for that.Paul Fowler

www.mstsgmo.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-04 AT 04:24 PM (EST)

As one of the chief contibutors of "Beta" software in the forum I wanted to throw in my support for a Beta Library. Hell, maybe we could have a Beta forum, too; though I had thought that was what Locomotive design etc was already for...I also support the idea of a "fictional" forum, although I would prefer calling it "Freelance" which appears to the more commonly accepted model railroading term for "fake" railroads.Not all of us possess the patience, knowledge, capabilities, or talent to achieve spectacular results. The beta allows me to release a model of a prototype I like, even though I know it could use more work in areas I have little interest in; such as physics, lighting, or cab views. The hope is that other members of the forum might want to pick up the torch where I left off. This has happened on a number of occasions and resulted in some excellent models. This communal aspect is one of the advantages to "virtual" model railroading. As far as any forums go...I find it very helpful that while working on a model I can post previews at certain stages, relying on the feedback I receive (and there is always plenty of it) to improve the project. As I mentioned before I have always assumed this is part of the reason this Forum exists. While it is fun to say "look what I built", it is even more enjoyable to try and incorporate all the contributors suggestions, even though I sometimes fall short.It's why I enjoy this hobby.In regards to fictional liveries and roads. This has been the backbone of model railroading for as long as I'm aware of. Very few scale model rails model specific prototypes. In fact some of the most memorable scale roads were freelance (and still are). The Gorre & Daphetid, Rio Grande & Texas Western, Delta Lines, Allegheny Midland, Virginia & Ohio etc...these are all "fictional". Each creator took what he liked from the prototype and discarded what he didn't need. Freelancing allows for a great deal of creativity while combating the fact that our replicas are just that, imaginary recreations of the real thing. It's a different sort of mindset from what Bill Callahan called "scale rule Harry's". It takes into account that there is no real reason why Jim England can't paint a veranda turbine in Ma & Pa livery. Jim's repaints are not real, nor is the equipment he's painting. They are electronic facimiles, nothing more.In the final analysis, ANYTHING created for MSTS is just as "fictional" as Baldwin centipedes on the Fitchburg.Frank Musick
Moving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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Lot of stuff here, possible we could simplify?What started all this? Brian, your major problem was bickering idiots who just started bickering in a new thread immediately after you locked the old one, then immediately started yet another bickering thread after the second one was locked, and so on ad nauseum.An automatic 24 hour suspension wouldn't hurt that bad, and would prevent any reoccurances like that few days you were putting out forest fires left and right. Guy wants to carry on in spite of a mod deleting/locking his thread/post, he's gonna have to wait at least 24 hours, and if he comes on and flames the moderator (which I have seen happen here), then he'll be gone again for at least another 24 hours. Eventually any hothead is gonna get the message, if he can only make one post per day and that post gets deleted, he'll half to tone it down or he won't be able to say anything. Added benefit, you'd only need to check once per day to see if Mister TemperTantrum has posted another flammenwerfer.

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I'd like to see a forum for the trains (the real ones). Thats all I ask.-MattATSF GP60M #104 works on the local in Flagstaff, AZ.

www.atsfrr.com Please attend the up coming convention in Pasadena, California.
Vice-President of FWLS. Now Hiring!

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-04 AT 05:34 PM (EST)

Hi Jim,Heehee, 48 hours has a better chance, but not 24 hours: let me explain:Just before Jim goes to bed EST, he says something absolutely preposterous like " I think the PO&N is the very best route ever!" where in fact we know it's only the very second best route ever; anyway, this statement gets Mike real mad, so Mike says "You are *&$£%xY** *^%$*** and what's more your route *&%**XZ$. Now when a mod happens to be online, He says you are suspended for 24 hours Mike.Mike then goes to bed GMT.Jim wakes up goes to work,comes back from work, does some work on his route, and before he retires to bed goes online, and to his infuriation discovers that someone thinks his route is the very second best route ever. Enraged he promptly replies "You son of a bitch you *&%ZX£$%** my route!" and then hits the sack.

24 hours later Mike's suspension is lifted, and goes online and proceeds to say "You 87564xw$8** son of *&%X£$%*!" Meanwhile down under, one of those Aussies tanked up on gallons of ice cold beer pipes in saying "Nah, nah Jimbob's ma mite--take that you Pommy bastard! Biff!" (Americans please note: the British and Australians have a peculiar relationship that is unique to them, and that "Pommy Bastard" is in fact a term of endearment that is not taken seriously.)Mike

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WTF.-MattATSF GP60M #104 works on the local in Flagstaff, AZ.

www.atsfrr.com Please attend the up coming convention in Pasadena, California.
Vice-President of FWLS. Now Hiring!

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change the email users from the forum. When I got an email about the gmo route it looked like it came from NELS and scared the life out of me until I found out someone sent it through the forum software.

Riding on Supertrain.

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Hmmm, I dunno, Mike. 24, 48, 72 hours, could be stepped so that the first one was 24 and second 48, third 72. Point is even if Nels decides to go with 72 hours first time, it's; 1. Not really that harsh, but gets the point across,
2. Gives time to cool down,
3. Gives the moderators a break.Your scenario,"Just before Jim goes to bed EST, he says something absolutely preposterous like " I think the PO&N is the very best route ever!" where in fact we know it's only the very second best route ever; anyway, this statement gets Mike real mad, so Mike says "You are *&$£%xY** *^%$*** and what's more your route *&%**XZ$. Now when a mod happens to be online, He says you are suspended for 24 hours Mike.Mike then goes to bed GMT."Okay, now Mike won't be able to post for another 24 hours, so assuming this happens at 00:00ZULU 6/30, he's out until 00:00ZULU 7/1. (Serves him right, PO&N IS the best route ever!! )"Jim wakes up goes to work,comes back from work, does some work on his route, and before he retires to bed goes online, and to his infuriation discovers that someone thinks his route is the very second best route ever. Enraged he promptly replies "You son of a bitch you *&%ZX£$%** my route!" and then hits the sack."Assuming that's 00:00ZULU 7/1, Jim now gets suspended for 24 hours;"24 hours later Mike's suspension is lifted, and goes online and proceeds to say "You 87564xw$8** son of *&%X£$%*!""At about the same time Mike gets suspended again, and if they increase each time he's out for 48 hours now."Meanwhile down under, one of those Aussies tanked up on gallons of ice cold beer pipes in saying "Nah, nah Jimbob's ma mite--take that you Pommy bastard! Biff!""Bye-bye cobber, for 24 hours, until 00:00ZULU 7/2. Even if all these guys are so blockheaded they just can't get the message by example, eventually you're gonna run out of blockheads, and even the densest will get tired of not being able to log in and post anything.More importantly, the post itself is deleted, replaced by a standardized message such as "Post deleted, This member suspended for 24 hours", so the guy in the Antipodes drinking beer upside-down would never see the post, and the suspended individual(s) wouldn't see their own previous posts. Post something offensive, it gets deleted and you're suspended for 24 hours, come back and post something else offensive and it gets deleted again, regardless of whether it's a troll or just a hothead it's kinda hard to inflame ANYTHING when you can't post for a while, and every time you do, EVERYTHING you write is short lived and locks you out for a longer time. Hee-hee, spinning your wheels, you'd have to write everything all over again and watch it disappear within an hour or two, since the mods will be looking for you when you come back off a suspension!The mods would obviously still have to use some discretion, the following post (which is obsolete now, replaced by Route Riter) would have gotten locked in today's climate:
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1666&forum=DCForumID6Reading the first response from "The Eagle" it sounds like he's mad and wanting to start a flamewar. Read his post #4, as I suspected English was not his first language, and it was merely a misunderstanding. If the thread had been locked after his first post there never would have been a chance to clear up that misunderstanding.

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Thanks for your input.This will be passed to Nels and he will make the final decision on this.Hopefully he will agree to alot of these things.

Brian E. Bundridge
http://Evergreentracks.tk

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