Dilemma

I have a dilemma. I recently posted a topic about some files that have been uploaded to the file library in the past few weeks. I called them "crap" and while my choice of words was wrong, I think my concern was valid. There have been some things uploaded that I don't think belong in the file library. So I called it out. That thread got locked (which really is OK, if the mods thought it was out of line). The problems began soon after when I got a PM from another member that was so vulgar and filled with profanity that it would have been removed from the forums within hours, if not minutes, had it actually been posted publicly. Rather than lash out at the other member, I e-mailed Nels a copy of the PM and also explained my concern about the file library. Here's the interesting part--Nels agreed with me on BOTH accounts, stating that the PM I got was way out of line and also stating that some particular files would find better homes someplace else than the FL. HOWEVER, he told me that his hands were tied on both accounts b/c 1) he didn't feel like it was his duty to police up individual PMs and 2) he didn't think he could reject files from the FL even if he didn't think they belonged because he would end up making somebody mad and he'd rather accept questionable files than make people mad. Fine, those are his policies. My question and dilemma is, how can we, as a forum, help out? How can we make this a better place? Some people have left these forums and headed to others where it is more peaceful. Some have lashed out a Nels. I was tempted to do so myself, but then I thought that perhaps instead I could try to boost up support for Nels and start this thread going to see if we could generate ideas about how things could be more easily monitored around here. I know we have various forum monitors, but somehow things have still gotten out of hand. I also know that this thread may generate flames--THIS IS NOT MY INTENTION! I'm just trying to see if we can come up with positive solutions here rather than continue the negative commentary about "the way things are." So I invite you to throw in your ideas.

Clayton

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RE: Dilemma, sinclair97, Jun-17-04, 04:24 PM, (1) RE: Dilemma, FireDragonLightning, Jun-17-04, 04:34 PM, (2) RE: Dilemma, ssw_96, Jun-20-04, 09:29 AM, (13) RE: Dilemma, yellowdog, Jun-21-04, 08:28 AM, (17) RE: Dilemma, steamloco, Jun-19-04, 05:11 AM, (3) RE: Dilemma, SVTS, Jun-19-04, 06:56 AM, (4) RE: Dilemma, sinclair97, Jun-19-04, 08:00 AM, (5) RE: Dilemma, robertreedy, Jun-19-04, 10:02 AM, (6) RE: Dilemma, Claude350, Jun-19-04, 10:56 AM, (7) RE: Dilemma, sinclair97, Jun-19-04, 08:53 PM, (8) RE: Dilemma, BNSF4723, Jun-19-04, 09:54 PM, (9) RE: Dilemma, steamloco, Jun-20-04, 02:26 AM, (11) RE: Dilemma, sinclair97, Jun-20-04, 09:55 AM, (14) RE: Dilemma, kevarc, Jun-21-04, 10:38 AM, (21) RE: Dilemma, pwillard, Jun-20-04, 08:40 PM, (15) RE: Dilemma, NW 1218, Jun-20-04, 10:31 PM, (16) RE: Dilemma, yellowdog, Jun-21-04, 08:31 AM, (18) RE: Dilemma, steamloco, Jun-20-04, 02:13 AM, (10) RE: Dilemma, yellowdog, Jun-20-04, 08:39 AM, (12) RE: Dilemma, sinclair97, Jun-21-04, 08:48 AM, (19) RE: Dilemma, ssw_96, Jun-21-04, 09:43 AM, (20) RE: Dilemma, yellowdog, Jun-21-04, 11:06 AM, (22) RE: Dilemma, lfriddle, Jun-21-04, 12:17 PM, (23) RE: Dilemma, yellowdog, Jun-21-04, 01:30 PM, (24) RE: Dilemma, ssw_96, Jun-21-04, 04:46 PM, (25) RE: Dilemma, Nels_Anderson, Jun-21-04, 04:52 PM, (26) RE: Dilemma, yellowdog, Jun-21-04, 06:59 PM, (27) RE: Dilemma, MikeF, Jun-26-04, 06:52 PM, (28)

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-04 AT 04:27 PM (EST)

Hi Clayton,From where I see it, it appears you broke three cardinal rules: first, you used the "C" word. Second, you condemned someone's creative output by using it. Third, you you tacitly implied that the staff at Train-sim.com were incompetent at deciding what was to go on site and what was not.This is not a criticism of you, but a possible explanation of why "Mr Red Pencil" did for you. Had you used the magic word "inappropriate" you might of been able to get much more in the way of feedback.Your suggestion about forum members "suggesting" or "generating" ideas is a fair one.In an ideal world it would be wonderful if we could organize a massive photoshoot of all members in this forum, and as it's train related it would have to be near a railway line, and to get everyone in the photo...Mike Oh yeah "Laugh and the whole world laughs with you" (from some famous quote)

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I totally agree with you, Clayton.I for one would like to know who sent that PM and what it contained.Should post it infront of everyone so they can all see the fool this person made of themeselves. Some of the stuff uploaded lately isn't what should be there. Sure, photos are great, but I don't download zip files to look at them. I go to websites to look at photos. Now you remark as what we can do as a community to make things better? Well, i'd hope that people who have the time to upload have the decency to realize what they are giving to the public, and if the public wants it or not.

Jay
http://www.s95019297.onlinehome.us/

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>I totally agree with you, Clayton.
>
>I for one would like to know who sent that PM and what it
>contained.
>
>Should post it infront of everyone so they can all see the
>fool this person made of themeselves. Some of the stuff
>uploaded lately isn't what should be there. Sure, photos are
>great, but I don't download zip files to look at them. I go
>to websites to look at photos. I would be the one who did that. Im here to tell you that it was "R" rated. I let me attitude and emotions get the best of me without thinking first. You probably dont want to read it. I lashed out in a bit of anger because I didnt like my stuff being called crap. I know those desktop screens I uploaded to the library is probably worrthless to most of you all, but that is the only thing I can give back to the community. I am not talented as some of you are. I cannot reskin, make models or anything. That was the only thing I could give back to the community. And after it was called crap I pretty much flew off the handle, and I shouldnt have done that. I probably made myself look stupid by doing that. I did throw a pretty good fit. I should have thought before I sent the pm. So right now I would like to apologize to yellowdog for the pm that I sent. Yellow I know that was very rude and unprofessional of me. I hope you will be able to look over this incident one of these days. I am truly sorry. And I will ask nels to remove those screens, so he can make room for better things to be uploaded. Thank you all for listening.

The best railroad there ever was

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Apology accepted ssw_96 (I don't even know your "real" name). I also apologize for calling uploaded things "crap"--that was a poor choice of words. However, I disagree that these types of uploads are the only way you can contribute to the community. I have seen you post several good replies offering feedback on others' work and I personally think that is very important, especially if it is worded in the right way (unlike my example) and especially if the author takes the time to listen.

Clayton

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-04 AT 05:14 AM (EST)

Seems to me it is who you are rather than what is said in this forum area. I have seen much worse things said, Clayton, than you said and they were not locked. So, I for one, reject the notion that it was what you said, but that YOU said it. And there are many YOU's out there that the same thing would have happened to. But there are a few THEM's out there that can say anything and get away with it. We know who they are but we cannot do anything about it. You see, you just posted the reason that this place will not change. The man in charge will not do anything about it. It is his duty to police individual posts. IT is in every other forum I am a member of. And if the reason is that he doesn't want to make people mad for having junk in the downloads area, that too is a copout. He doesn't want to take the time to police that either. So, in a way I disagree with your analysis that boosting support for the owner of this site will help at all. If anything he needs to get some people working for him that will actually police this place and the downloads area. I don't mean slaps on the wrist of locking of threads. I mean getting rid of some people, plain and simple. It was done many years ago and it worked. Somehow that all has changed as Nels has drifted away from responsibility for his own board. With one swift hand he could solve all of this mess. And please don't come up with an excuse to the contrary, Clayton. We know this would solve the problems here. In one weeks time this place would turn around. But it ain't gonna happen! There is nothing we can do as a community until the owner backs his own rules up himself!Just my opinion, and my ideas. That is what you asked for that is what you have. And they can lock this thread too. Won't make any difference. The truth is the truth, no matter how you look at it!JL

"He was found in the wreck with his hand on the throttle and scalded to death by the steam"

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Just to set the record straight, I am probally one of the members reffered to as uploading "crap", when I uploaded my Real Tehachapi Pass photos, but as explained in the locked thread, I did so to allow those that have the MSTS route to compare it with the actual place, as many people have no clue what it REALLY looks like, and also to demonstrate just how closely 3DTS nailed the route. I easily could have flooded the files with thousands of photos, just for the hell of it, but they don't belong there. I feel the Tehachapi photos do, as do others who have PM'ed or emailed me.I can assure you and others, I did not PM you, though looking atthe names of those that have uploaded questionable material, I think we can figure it out rather quickly.As said many times before, there will be times when something is uploaded that many will not think belongs in the files area, but it is not up to you or I to question someone elses contributions to the hobby. Simply don't download it. Nels has done a terrific job with this site and has made what we have today possible, and I too would not want to be the one to decide what belongs here and what does not. This is after all a game, or hobby for us, and the site itself is free to all. Lets remember this.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York
www.msnusers.com/AshleyPhotography
www.msnusers.com/cnytrainsWholesale Route Sales / Production, Krispy Kreme, Syracuse NYAmtrak "American Eagle" Activity Pack, Summer 2004

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Chris,I use the techapi pass route a lot and found your photos very helpful: they gave me another perspective on this route; moreover an awful lot of people have downloaded them, and I hope you won't be deterred from making future contributions.Mike

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Clayton, neither condoning nor condemning what you said in the original post, but just some thoughts about the following. >My question and dilemma is, how can we, as a forum, help out? This may be all semantics, but I don't think 'we as a forum' can do much of anything since the 'we' also includes the 'problem-children' (having nothing to do with age). The 'problem-children' will not help out since causing a stir 'seems' to be their main function on here and I'll have to admit, some do it rather well. Which leads to the next question where I think the solution is .. if there is any.>How can we make this a better place? As has been said many times, but is much easier to say than do .. just don't feed the trolls. This may be personal opinion, but there is no prerequisite in life that states we are required to have the last word, since often the 'last words' are the words of a fool rather then words of wisdom. That would eventually snuff out more problems than any other single action that could be done. To paraphrase the basic law that states 'every action has a re-action' .. Opinion is given, rebuttal, defense of original opinion, rebuttal (sometimes multiple, by many people). This is in reality where it should stop, since also as the saying goes, it takes a fool to argue with a fool. Where does statement/rebuttal end and argument begin? Possibly on the third round which then tends to fan into a genuine flame, burning from all directions How can we as individuals help the situation? Obviously over simplified, but merely let it end after the second round. No oxygen/fuel, the fire dies. If someone says something out of line the second or third time around .. ignore and go about life. There's still much to do and not much time to do it! >Some people have left these forums and headed to others where it is more peaceful.I have misgivings about saying this, but I think it was their choice based on whatever was going through their mind at the time and should be respected and left alone. It would usually not end up this way if the above creed were followed.Concerning both yours and Nels statement about 'superfluous' files being uploaded. I think this is Nels call, no questions asked and our job is simply to ignore the uploads or pass them by if we don't want them. As has been said many times, there is 'no accounting for taste' and what is one persons chocolate is another persons poison. If no one downloads the files, a message is sent. Whether it is received or not is another story, but then we've done our part.Enough for 'psychology 101' and 'partitions of the mind part II' .. dismounts soapbox and goes back to running trains RobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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Steamloco I agree with you 100%.Some folks get away with murder here while others are treated like criminals.There is no bipartisanship here.Like you said it's not what you said but who said it.Here recently the "lock down" has gained steam.Claude Debnam NS Piedmont Division Raleigh East

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Well I'm going to do something I don't normally do and that is stick my neck out here. I don't believe there is such a person as a bad guy on the forums; in fact the so called flaming and other such mal-content postings are symptoms of the following:1. Frustration.2. Lack of participation, or the prevention thereof.3. Either the inability to express oneself and one's opinions etc, or the prevention of so doing.4. The inability of forum members to release the potential of the above category is due to the following circumstances:A. Inertia.B. The lack of a constructive outlet such as an "Off Topic" forum.C. Reluctance of forum members to contribute further for fear of reprisals either from other forum members or (rightly or wrongly) moderators. just my 2 cents-worthMike

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Possibly having more active moderators? At least two of the present ones assigned to frequently used forums either come here very rarely or not at all....

Cedarbrae RR - A fictional railroad in rural lands. Coming soon.

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Mike, most of the people here do fit your description and are frustrated and have trouble participating and some have trouble expressing themselves, but that isn't the cause of the problems here. The people causing the problems have no trouble doing any of the above, they are the ones that are causing the above to happen. They like to cause dissent for who knows what reason, getting their names in a post, trying to show others how witty they can be, or trying to show others that they know more than the originator of the question, or some are just downright punks who are here just to stir up trouble. Well, they are winning the war here. And it is a war. But the general is off somewhere doing his own thing and his lieutenants have no idea what to do, or what they can do or they are friends with those causing the problems. An off-topic forum? I'd say we have plenty of that already. I'd say your last C hits the nail of the proverbial head. No one is willing to help these people because when they do, they get attacked for helping them. Your comments are very good Mike. But the trouble is no one is understanding the fundamental problem here. Lack of leadership! JL

"He was found in the wreck with his hand on the throttle and scalded to death by the steam"

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-04 AT 10:08 AM (EST)

Additional info to my statement above:5. Booze, drink, ALCOHOL!How do I know? Well, people can make spelling mistakes, or even typo errors( we all do it including me), but still be coherent in expressing their thoughts clearly. I have, on occasion, seen the odd thread reflect the opposite of this where the clarity of what was supposed to be portrayed slurs into virtual incoherence by not one but several people. This of course can lead to others taking offence because of the blunted sentiment so expressed.So let's be honest with ourselves how many of us can put our hand over our heart and say when when we make a posting or reply in the forum that we are not under the "affluence of incohol"Mike

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Me, I drink very little anymoe - a six pack is good for at least 4 months.I get my fair share of responses to my posts. I suppose most don't like the way I do things. Oh, well, that is just a cross I will have to bear. But if you look real hard at my "not nice" posts you will generally see a trend in them. I am not into the touchy/feely politcal correct world.1. When I call someone an idiot. This is generally reserved for someone who absolutly refuses to look for the information and wants - no DEMANDS - an answer. Look at the web today. Unlike earlier time, when many had books and reference material that was not generally available (public library's are very lacking in this type of information) questions where hard to find an answer to. But now, there are many excellent directories out there that have tons of information just a click away. A 5 minute search at Google will find them for you. The same with her on the forums, many just absolutly refuse to use the search funtion. How many times have we seen the SAME topic in two or more threads right about one another? It is also reserved for those who post a lot totally worthless posts.2. Ego. Yes we all have them. But it really boils my cookies when I see the "Look how wonderfull" my stuff posts. That is a huge red flag to me. Look at my responses to a Bill Hemb thread. I dare you to find a post by me telling how wonderfull ANYTHING I have done or that it is better than anyone elses. You will not. I have responded in posts thanking people for the kudos they have given me, but that is all.3. People who cannot take criticism. I have tried to help people, by either giving them information or pointing them in the right direction. Their response will dictate my actions. For those that refuse to get better or get ugly when it is offered, better get your fireproof suit on. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who refuses to get better and/or correct glaring error in what they have created. I have been called a rivet counter. But I am not, I want it right. I know the differences between an SD40 and SD40-2. But I am not that fanatical that I am going to say that you should have used latches on that battery box, not bolts. I understand that compromises have to be made, AT TIMES, but there is no excuse for missing a scheme completely. 4. People who attack my friends. I will come after you. Though, there have been times friends have posts and been criticised and I have remained silent. That is generally because I agree with the criticism, I do not rip friends on the fourms, I usually send them a PM or email. But even then, if I feel that the ripper has steped over the line, I will chime in.Maybe some do get special treatment here. So what. Many of them are significant contributors here. I have been accused of getting it. But if you look around, you will see I have probably been the cause of many locked posts and/ deleted responses or threads. I have also been threatened with suspension from here. So what? I'll live. People have tried to carry flame wars from here to other forums, espcially mine. That will not be tolerated by me. What starts here, stays here. That is my policy.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
It's fun being CRAZY!!!!!
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Additional Symptom:Unchecked EgoPete Willard

http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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Pete, you've got it absolutely right.

John Means
MASW Founder and President
The MASW site is www.freewebs.com/klwtrainsim

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I agree, too, though sometimes I'm not very good at it! BTW, FWIW, Mike, I've NEVER replied or written anything in here (or any other forum for that matter) under the influence of alcohol or other substances. I'm a TEE-to-tal-er and am probably not the only one! However, you fellas can enjoy all you want, just don't get near me or any of my family on the roads afterwards!

Clayton

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Robert, I couldn't agree more with what you are saying. If you give them no ammunition they high tail and run, but unfortunately we are all too human here. Most of us have tried your way and failed. Why? Because it just keeps coming and coming and coming until it just gets downright ridiculous and finally you reach your breaking point, wherever that is and you just have to lash out in defense of your own sanity and in defense of your right to speak plainly and freely. I have no trouble speaking freely on other forums. I don't get verbally abused on other forums because it isn't tolerated. Now we have moderators here, but they pick and choose who is right and who is wrong, or they just let too much slide. Perhaps that is all they are given the ability to do. If so, that should be changed. A moderators job is to step in and warn the parties that they are in danger of being locked out if it doesn't stop and then and only then is the thread locked. That is not the way it is done here. I appreciate your psychology 101 lesson and understand it and agree with it, however, this classroom is filled with students who either don't care or who are here only to get those points they need for graduation. To heck with those who are here to learn or to help others learn.But, I do thank you for your words of wisdom. In a normal environment this would work. What we have here is not a normal environment. What we have here is chaos, dissent and a total breakdown of decency. Therein lies the difference between what you believe in and what actually occurs here.
JLJL

"He was found in the wreck with his hand on the throttle and scalded to death by the steam"

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> I don't get verbally abused on other forums
>because it isn't tolerated. I think this is true. There is something different here than on other forums that I've participated in through the years. > A
>moderators job is to step in and warn the parties that they
>are in danger of being locked out if it doesn't stop and
>then and only then is the thread locked. I agree with this, too. To me, this would be the ideal situation (except when something happens in the initial post that is completely out of line, like cussing, or a complete attack of a specific individual)I don't know anything about the leadership situation, but I have experienced enough to believe that Nels has a "hands-off" leadership style in this forum. I don't know why that is and I don't really need to know. I believe that sometimes this style can be good, but it seems like it's no so good for this particular forum (for whatever reason). I love the movie "Remember the Titans" and there's a great scene in there that I believe fits this situation. The team is at football camp and have been at each other because of the segregation issue. Julius and Gary are having words after practice and Gary, the team captain, is giving Julius an ear-full about how he's not playing up to his potential. Julius says, essentially, that the other team members aren't playing up to their potential either and that he's going to play for himself. Gary replies that this is the worst attitude he's ever seen. Julius says, "Attitude reflects leadership. . .Captain." To me, that scene describes perfectly the situation in these forums (except maybe the route forum--they drive out all the trolls from their forum just by existing, I think!!). At this point I'm not really sure what to do about it, so I started this thread. I appreciate everyone's input so far.

Clayton

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Hi, Clayton,I'm anxious to stress that I was not referring to you about the booze problem. I don't like the taste of alcohol, nor does it agree with me, so I don't touch it for that reason.What's ironic if Chad (ssw96) had not put up his pics in the library, you would not have had an opportunity to express your misgivings or ideas in this forum, which in turn would not have allowed me to put in my 2 cent's worth.It's equally ironic that a catalyst is often required to kick start the forum into some lively debate.Mike

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Well I asked nels to remove them so I wont have this problem again.

The best railroad there ever was

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-04 AT 11:08 AM (EST)

I know you weren't referring to me directly when talking about alkeehaul, but you did ask for a show of hands so I raised mine in response. A catalyst is often needed, but I would say an appropriate response to the catalyst is often more important than the catalyst itself. Fortunately, reason can overcome emotions and physics (i.e every action does not necessarily have to have an equal or opposite reaction!) Edit: ssw_96--Nels has ruled in your favor, so you should leave the pictures in the forum unless he has already responded to your request to remove them.

Clayton

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I think Nels is correct and is doing a great job running this forum. It's his nickel. If it is OK with him, then it should be ok with us, or else we are free to start our own forum.I wonder who are these great all knowledgeable people who are supposed to censor what gets in, and what doesn't? Do they speak for me? I think not. Yellowdog certainly doesn't speak for me. There are many things in the file downloads that I don't care for. Does that mean they should be removed? What if someone else likes them? Should they be made to do without because I don't care for them? Such ideas as this do the dictators of the the world get their start. I think a forum should be a place where people with the same interest, but diffrent levels of age, education, income, and nationality are free to share whatever they have to share. I really hate to see a post where someone is slammed for spelling, or their english is fragmented, or accused of never completeing school, or their social status isn't up to someone elses. I just didn't notice that there was an entrance exam to get in.SSW_96, I deplore anyone who has to stoop to such language. But I enjoyed your file.Larry

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>Such ideas as this do the dictators of the the world get their start.Yep, watch out for me--I'm the next lean, mean, Dick Tater machine! Actually, I thought screenshots belonged in the Screen Shot Forum and apparently (from his own words), Nels actually agrees with me (perhaps a runner-up for dictator?) but doesn't want to offend anyone by restricting what gets uploaded (darn, runner-up dictator status revoked).

Clayton

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Well he took em off yesterday. Yellowdog, did you get my pm yesterday. I try to watch my language but sometimes when you're just pissed at everyone, any little thing can make you go awol.
but as the saying goes, think before you speak.

The best railroad there ever was

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My feelings exactly, and just why I virtually never reject anything submitted to the file library. Who am I to decide what is valuable to someone else? I frequently see files that I passed over as not very useful getting hundreds of downloads (and vice versa). We've got the space and it's simple enough to skip over listings that are not of interest so I really don't see this as a problem.

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I guess that's why (if this WERE a form of government rather than a discussion forum), it would truly resemble a dictatorship. I mean that with absolutely no disrespect, but in it's truest form. Or perhaps "monarchy" would be a nicer word. Why? Because you set the rules and the rest of us either like it or lump it. And I would say with Abraham Lincoln, ". . .although bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible, still while they continue in force, for the sake of example, they should be religiously observed. . .let proper legal provisions be made for them with the least possible delay; but, till then, let them, if not too intolerable, be borne with."That's why I didn't complain when my original post was locked. Somebody was (hopefully) following the rules. I suppose the purpose of THIS thread was to see if the forum members could come up with "proper legal provision." However, it doesn't look like there is enough support for that and this thread perhaps has outlived its usefullness.

Clayton

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Hi Nels,I don't get on this forum very much. But I generally enjoy it when I do.I have seen several posts lately that seem to be critical of your 'style'/'leadership'/whatever... Frankly, I don't understand them. Is there some written contract where you're expected to hold up some sort of level of performance? I can see that you do a job as you see fit. If others disapprove, you can feel free to take their criticism in any way you like. If they are still dissatisfied, well "don't let the door hit you in the #$% on the way out."As for many of the flame wars, as several have suggested, we should not feed the trolls. If someone posts something in a pique of rage/alcohol/ego, perhaps it would be best to wait 24 hours before we respond. The message will still be there (if it's not deleted) and we can have some time to calm down ourselves. And if we're the poster, an apology the next day after we cool-down/sober-up/eat-some-humble-pie might go a long way. We all 'lose our cool' sometimes. But admitting it and apologizing is a great start to getting along.Just by 2 cents

Mike F

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