Train-Sim.Com
General

Here is a thought

Notice to all visitors and members of the Train-Sim.Com message forums:
If you plan on using a signature banner in your posts, we would like to remind you that there is a maximum size for banners. That maximum is 450 pixels wide by 120 pixels high, and not to exceed 25k. Your compliance is appreciated. FORUM RULES Problems? There are two common reasons for problems with logging in and posting messages. The first is that you are running a firewall that prevents your messages from being sent to the server. The other is that you have cookies disabled; the DCForum software requires cookies to work properly.

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Printer-friendly copy Email this topic to a friend

Reading Topic #8620

Charter Member · 79 posts

I was wondering this the other night.Lets say for a minutes that train tracks just followed the land, they can go up and down hills, and the grade does not have to made to be almost level.Now consider the distance saved becaue of grade leveling and brigdes that are in place to give an almost level ride, relative the previous paragraph.I was just wondering if that was another reason that rail travel is economical.Ryan

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: Here is a thought, Xacto, Jun-14-04, 10:18 AM, (1) RE: Here is a thought, ryanreeves, Jun-14-04, 10:21 AM, (2) RE: Here is a thought, railfan4ever, Jun-14-04, 11:30 AM, (3) RE: Here is a thought, ryanreeves, Jun-14-04, 11:43 AM, (4) RE: Here is a thought, DRGWK36, Jun-14-04, 12:00 PM, (5) RE: Here is a thought, Andy J, Jun-14-04, 02:53 PM, (6) RE: Here is a thought, Swissie, Jun-15-04, 08:06 AM, (7)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Charter Member · 931 posts

RE: Here is a thought

Rail transportation is efficient because of the low level of friction between a steel wheel and steel rail. The downside of that low friction is the need to keep the rails as close to level as possible so that a locomotive can move the train without loosing traction. A loaded freight car rests it's 100 tons on a contact patch the size of 8 dimes, while a loaded 25 ton tractor trailer sits on a patch the size of 18 dinner plates. It's that efficiency that allows 10,000hp of locomotives to move a 10,000 ton train while a tractor trailer needs maybe 300hp to move 25 tons. I probably don't have the numbers quite accurate here, but the theory still holds true. Cliff

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 79 posts

RE: Here is a thought

Cliff,I was not questioning the real reason that rail travel is effecient.I was just thinking what the difference would if thing were different, But you did give a good description of why it works the way it doesryan

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Member since Apr-7-04 · 163 posts

RE: Here is a thought

A train can be considered economically effecient because a locomotive may produce 3 to 10 times more pollution than a semi but can carry a LOT more. A semi can pull 1 trailer, while a single locomotive may be able to pull 50 to 100 boxcars, each boxcar being 3 to 5 times the size of a semi trailer. As for double stacks, a train may carry the load of hundreds of semis in a single train while only emitting the pollution of a dozen semis. Evironmentally friendly! This is taken directly from the behind-the-scenes tour of a diesel-electric locomotive at http://www.howstuffworks.com/"Steel Wheels"
"Ever wonder why trains have steel wheels, rather than tires like a car? It's to reduce rolling friction. When your car is driving on the freeway, something like 25 percent of the engine's power is being used to push the tires down the road. Tires bend and deform a lot as they roll, which uses a lot of energy."
"The amount of energy used by the tires is proportional to the weight that is on them. Since a car is relatively light, this amount of energy is acceptable (you can buy low rolling-resistance tires for your car if you want to save a little gas).""Since a train weighs thousands of times more than a car, the rolling resistance is a huge factor in determining how much force it takes to pull the train. The steel wheels on the train ride on a tiny contact patch -- the contact area between each wheel and the track is about the size of a dime." "By using steel wheels on a steel track, the amount of deformation is minimized, which reduces the rolling resistance. In fact, a train is about the most efficient way to move heavy goods."

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 79 posts

RE: Here is a thought

I understand that.i was just wondering how much distance would be saved since the make level grades and bridges, instead of following terrain.
I understand why they have to have the level grades.It was just really a random thought. Ryan

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 1026 posts

RE: Here is a thought

The distance saved is really minimal in comparison to the overall efficiency. In fact, the need to maintain shallow grades can often require a railroad to follow contours that take it a long way out of a straight-line path from one point to another. An excellent example of this is the old NYC mainline from New York to Chicago, which runs up the Hudson to get to a point where it can then get to the shore of Lake Erie and a nice, flat run into Chicago. The distance saved in cuts and fills is far outweighed by the extra distance to find relatively flat routes.Andy

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Member since Aug-13-03 · 77 posts

RE: Here is a thought

LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-04 AT 02:53 PM (EDT)

{The "Water level" route. So you can SLEEP!}old New York Central slogan!--------------------------------
R.I.P;Norfolk and Western, at least I got to know ya
You MAY find me hanging out on the Pocahontas and Radford Div of NSAndy J

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Member since Sep-27-02 · 1056 posts

RE: Here is a thought

LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-04 AT 08:22 AM (EDT)

Ryan,maybe a little outdated, but perhaps an interesting bit of trivia. First and foremost, I do live in a country with some mountain terrain (also known as the alps) which is crossed by several North-South and East-West mainline routes. In the 1870/80s, when these routes where designed & built, some local engineers came up with the concept of "cog-wheels" and "rack-track" allowing trains to climb grades of a magnitude no adhesion-based train could ever concur, with grades of up to 12,5% or even 14% being technically feasible (even more on touristic roads featuring light excursion traffic only).One of these engineer (by the name of Abt) was what we would nowadays call a feaverish lobbyist. He was trying to convince all these RR companies setting up trans-alpine routes to save on route length and thus cost by using his technology. His equation was - seemingly - fairly easy: If rack-track was used, then many tunnels, bridges etc. could be saved, and the overall track length would be shorter.Despite all his lobbying, only excursion RRs going to mountain tops, and short branch lines bought the concept. All the major through-fares went for adhesion-only, typically using grades around 2% to 2.6% This translated into building helicydal tunnels, viaducts, landfills etc. to allow trains to reach the top, but despite the longer track resulting from this decision, the overall concept proved to be more succesfull than rack-track following a direct line across the terrain. You may wonder why this is so.- First and foremost: Steeper grades on the one hand require shorter trains on the other hand - the power of the engine is as much a limiting factor as the braking capabilities on the downhill leg. So when your 30-50 car train arrives at the foot of the hill, it is not very economical to break it into 3-5 parts which need to be pulled over the steep grades individually.- Second: it might be sufficient to have specially equipped locomotives with cog-wheel axles for pulling trains uphill, but reliable braking is another factor. Basically, also the unpowered cars of your train need one cogwheel per car or even per truck - depending on grade and weight - for braking purposes. Now if you run an international route through the alps with lots of foreign cars ending up on your train, it is a burden to ask every single operator out there to equip its fleet with this additional piece of technology (sure, it could be done, but it is a competitive disadvante when your competitors' routes do not require it). Otherwise, additional "brake vans" would need to be inserted in your consist as helpers protecting the cog-wheel-less cars from causing spectacular, but terminal run-aways. - Third: Speed limits on rack-track are usually very low. When we talk about the 1880's, then typically a steam powered train would have been limited to as little as 12-14kph (under 10mph) uphill, and maybe 8-10kph (5-7mph) downhill. Modern day electric rack-track motors may go as fast as 40kph uphill (~25mph) and 25-30kph (~17-20mph) downhill. Now go figure: When a pure adhesion train can run the entire 2% ramp at a constant 80 kph (50mph) without having to slow down for rack-track sections inbetween, then the short-cut effect the rack-track offers distance-wise is minimized or even outweighted by the loss in average speed associated with it.- Fourth: rack track is expensive to maintain. The most expensive parts are,
- a) on a combined adhesion/rack-track system, the entry and exit sections to the rack-track where you have to make 100% sure that the cogwheel on every single one of your engines and cars is brought up to the correct speed and phase. By this I mean that it must turn just the right way to meet the rack-track precisely & smoothly - otherwise you risk to derail your train: Imagine the "hump" of the rack track meeting the "hump" of the cog-wheel, resulting in your train being lifted slightly. Then add some speed, and difficult terrain, and down you go. Typically, trains need to enter rack-track-sections at speeds that are equal or below the speed of a walking person (typical limits here are 8 kph / 5mph).
- b) Points in a rack-track section. Lots of moving parts there to get the rack section for the other track out of the way for both wheels and the cog-wheels of your train.
- c) manpower to frequently grease, check, and maintain the rack track which is facing much more tear and wear than the pair of standard rails your wheels roll on.All these factors contributed to the alpine mainlines being build in the traditional way. Over the years, with the increasing efficiency of electric (or in your country diesel-electric) power over steam engines, this decision has even more so turned out to be the way to go. While adhesion based freight and passenger trains were not that terribly fast in the days of steam, the difference has become even more noticeable today. I remember having read that around the 1910's, the trans-alpine RR operators were already proud of steam engines when they allowed them to go at 45 kph / 30mph on the grades under ideal conditions (light train, dry weather). Modern motors now go about twice that speed, under any condition, or even faster with light trains, or tilting-technology trains etc. Same with regard to the tonnage of trains, which has multiplied from a few 100 tons in the days of steam to 1500 (metric) ton trains on the 2.6% grades (remember, we are still using the old-fashioned chain couplers over here, which is a limiting factor). Tests to open the routes up for 3000 metric tons trains are underway for a couple of years now... Hope that gave you some feed for thought and another perspective on tracks vs. terrain Cheers,Lukas a.k.a Swissie

Alert | IP


[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | How To... | File Library ] Copyright © 2004 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.

Restored from the Train-Sim.Com archive, captured January 9, 2005. About this archive.