Why railroads say "naught" instead of "zero"

For those who have heard a dispatcher give a clearance or authority over the radio when ever the information is repeated they always say "naught" instead of "zero". Example "engine 5052", "fifty, fifty two - five, naught, five, two..." Why don't they like the word "zero"? Why "naught"?

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RE: why railroads say, Erick_Cantu, Jun-02-04, 00:31 AM, (1) RE: why railroads say, chucksc, Jun-02-04, 00:47 AM, (2) RE: why railroads say, ASR_Q301, Jun-02-04, 00:52 AM, (3) RE: why railroads say, cdntrains, Jun-02-04, 01:01 AM, (4) RE: why railroads say, msavianney, Jun-02-04, 01:26 AM, (5) RE: why railroads say, Claude350, Jun-02-04, 02:19 AM, (6) RE: why railroads say, jdtrainman, Jun-17-04, 00:23 AM, (26) RE: why railroads say, Grimace780, Jun-15-04, 08:25 PM, (24) RE: why railroads say, Vulcan Foundry, Jun-02-04, 02:20 AM, (7) RE: why railroads say, Poltergeist, Jun-02-04, 09:14 AM, (8) RE: why railroads say, XRails, Jun-02-04, 12:19 PM, (10) RE: why railroads say, shoskins, Jun-04-04, 04:21 PM, (18) RE: why railroads say, kevarc, Jun-02-04, 10:20 AM, (9) RE: why railroads say, mquist, Jun-02-04, 01:43 PM, (11) RE: why railroads say, FURX, Jun-02-04, 04:04 PM, (12) RE: why railroads say, Vern, Jun-02-04, 04:51 PM, (13) RE: why railroads say, allcanadian_trains, Jun-02-04, 04:58 PM, (14) RE: why railroads say, eshr85, Jun-02-04, 06:05 PM, (15) RE: why railroads say, erniep, Jun-03-04, 08:15 AM, (16) RE: why railroads say, Darkviper01, Jun-14-04, 09:47 AM, (20) RE: why railroads say, kro52, Jun-15-04, 07:17 AM, (22) RE: why railroads say, shoskins, Jun-04-04, 04:19 PM, (17) RE: why railroads say, CBF, Jun-13-04, 11:26 PM, (19) RE: why railroads say, ATF1224, Jun-14-04, 12:33 PM, (21) RE: why railroads say "naught" instead of "zero", heavyd, Jun-15-04, 03:22 PM, (23) RE: why railroads say "naught" instead of "zero", robertlearmont, Jun-16-04, 07:35 PM, (25)

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...Probably the same reason why pilots say 'niner...' because it sounds lame and balances out all the cool lingo. "The Genesis and the F59PHI are the lamest locomotives Amtrak has ever operated. Accept it and move on. Hug an F40."

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Actually it's for clarity....
It's hard to confuse Naught and Niner for anything else isn't it?Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO

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Yeah, My Instuctor used to go "burko" at me for just saying "nine" whilst I was doing some flying lessons. It had to be niner. For the reason that Chuck gave.>Mike Forster<
Perth, Western Australiapacificnational_nr103@hotmail.com

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ya, i don't know where the naught comes in, but the reason for 'niner' is because 'nine' can sound a lot like 'ten' over a radiocdntrains
"Railroading from SEA to SKY"

BC Rail Squamish Subdivision for MSTS

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My understanding was that from the 1930s, NACA (the aeronautics organisation that spawned NASA later) decided that 'niner' was better because it 'cut' through the fuzz of the early radios better than 'nine'. Same with 'A-OK'.Cheers,
Matt

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Team-ALCO
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Nine sounds nowhere close to ten on a radio.Claude Debnam NS Piedmont Division Raleigh East

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You haven't heard it on SSB on a fading HF signal.... WORSE on an AM signal.... The real reason is that nine and five are more often confused....JBD
aka: KU0G (ham radio since 1976)
(No wise-cracks about QCWA-readiness, please!)

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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>ya, i don't know where the naught comes in, but the reason
>for 'niner' is because 'nine' can sound a lot like 'ten'
>over a radio In aviation and the military, "ten" is never said over the radio. For clarity over a radio, numbers are preceded by "numeral..." and read out one by one. Example: "Approaching milepost numeral one six seven".At least that is the way a friend of mine who has some aviation and military experience recently explained it.Cheers,
Gary Cameron
Grande Prairie "The last civilized stop before Alaska," AB
Canada

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>Actually it's for clarity....
>It's hard to confuse Naught and Niner for anything else
>isn't it?
>
>Chuck Schneider
>Chief Cook, Bottle Washer and (Virtual) CEO
>
Correct. Zero could be mistaken for Zulu when using Phonetic pronunciation, hence naught is used to indicate the number zero.

Bringing Wisdom to an unwise world and also tea.
Mainly I bring tea.

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I was told that Nine could be confused with Neight (A German word), so they use Niner to make it sound less like Neight.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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>I was told that Nine could be confused with Neight (A German word), so they use Niner to make it sound less like Neight. Yeah, that's what I heard too. I was also told that neight means "no", so it's pretty important not to mess that up!

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>>I was told that Nine could be confused with Neight (A German word), so they use Niner to make it sound less like Neight.
>
>Yeah, that's what I heard too. I was also told that neight
>means "no", so it's pretty important not to mess that up! German for "no" is "nein".

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Actually naught is an old word that means nothingness. And is was adopted for the reasons above.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/N0032600.htmlKevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
It's fun being CRAZY!!!!!
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Niner is used because it is a RULE which is not to be violated. It comes from military radio procedure. It is not alone 5 is pronounced "fife" like the small flute. For some reason early in the history of military radio telephony some signal officer decided that they were easier to understand and it stuck. I expect that the earliest air trafic contol was probably a US Army funcion so they adopted the military proceudure. In the case of "naught" on the railroad procedure I suspect it is in the operation rules as well. Be Seeing you.
Michael

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The phonetic alphabet is used for clarity, here is the alphabet from the Chessie System 1980 operating rules handbook.A---------Alfa
B---------Bravo
C---------Charlie
D---------Delta
E---------Echo
F---------Foxtrot
G---------Golf
H---------Hotel
I---------India
J---------Juliet
K---------Kilo
L---------Lima
M---------Mike
N---------November
O---------Oscar
P---------Papa
Q---------Quebec
R---------Romeo
S---------Sierra
T---------Tango
U---------Uniform
V---------Victor
W---------Whiskey
X---------X ray
Y---------Yankee
Z---------Zulu0---------Zero
1---------Wun
2---------Too
3---------Thuh-ree
4---------Fo-wer
5---------Fi-Yiv
6---------Six
7---------Seven
8---------Ate
9---------NinerGuess it depends on the road....-Jeffrey

Courteous Future Engineer
NKP 2-8-4 #765. www.765.org
Chessie System Historical Society. http://moosevalley.org/cshs/
My Website; www.xanga.com/csxd765

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In the UK it is always "zero". The biggest sin is to say "oh" as in letter O when you mean zero.

Chief Track Welder

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-04 AT 04:58 PM (EDT)

Only a few differences between them (The Chessie names ) and the RCMP Fenetic alphabet. Interesting.
CheersMorgan

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Which railroads use "naught"
Ive never heard it on the east coast

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Pretty well all Canadian railways use nought. cheers,
Ernie

Don't take life too seriously, just remember what not to do next time around.

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I here the CSX dispatcher use nought all the time up here in Columbus. I belive that the dispatcher is in Jacksonville, I would assume that all CSX dispatchers would use it.Paint Shop, Yonder Locomotive Works.

Check Out the WVK&O Homepage. http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dark_viper/page6.html
I'm Just down the road from NS/CSX Buckeye Yard.

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Agreed, never heard "naught" used here on the LIRR. KRO52

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>...Probably the same reason why pilots say 'niner...'
>because it sounds lame and balances out all the cool lingo. Actually, it's NOT to "balance otu the cool lingo" but rather to make a definite difference between FIVE and NINE which can sound similar on a noisy radio channel.

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The way it was explained in the early fifties, was to make the phonetics of letters and numbers NATO compatable, so that there would be less confusion between co-operating nationalities. This brought out the Alpha, Bravo phonetic letters and the use of fife and niner.Cheers, All; Chuck F. (Ex RCAF)

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-04 AT 12:34 PM (EDT)

Five and Fire can also sound very similar on the radio, hence, fife.

Jake Mensel

The Norfolk Southern Winston-Salem District

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Actually, I heard just today the RTC give a clearance and repeat using the word "ZERO". I heard it just fine.

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I'll guess it's something like we do in the Civil Air Patrol.A- Alfa
B- Bravo
C- Charlie
D- Delta
E- Echo
F- Foxtrot
G- Golf
H- Hotel
I- India
J- Juliett
K- Kilo
L- Lima
M- Mike
N- November
O- Osca
P- Papa
Q- Quebec
R- Romeo
S- Sierra
T- Tango
U- Uniform
V- Victor
W- Whiskey
X- X-ray
Y- Yankee
Z-Zulu1- One
2- Two
3- Tree
4- Four
5- Fife
6- Six
7- Seven
8- Eight
9- Niner
0- Zero
Google, Google, Google!
Simplest answers are always the best!

Howdy!
Bob
E-mail: robertlearmont@realcountryfan.com

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