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BlakeTyner (25 posts)
Jan-07-02, 01:44 AM (EST) "Random thoughts/facts" Hey all..I really enjoy hearing the stories on the board and I LOVE getting useless trivia about trains/railroads..so I figured I'd start a thread with a few thoughts and hopefully some of y'all will join right in.In the 1970's Amtrak ran it's locomotives wide open (Run 8) all the time, controlling train speed with brakes only. This was done to conserve diesel fuel at a time when it was outrageously expensive. (And made station stops roaringly loud)Toilets in locomotives are most often found in the nose. Norfolk Southern, for a while, did not purchase toilets on their locomotives and crewmen were supposed to bring "plastic garbage bags" to serve the purpose. They were sued. (Not making that up, I swear)In many of the early generation diesels, the full-width carbody was not simply a cowl which covered the engineroom..it was an integral part of the loco's construction. The carbody actually supported componants of the engine.The AMD-103 Genesis locomotive was designed to include a "hostler's cab" at the rear of the unit. This was to serve backing up in a yard envirnment. GE made quite a big deal out of that feature when the AMD was unveiled...but the newer P42s have no such hostler's cab...and the 800 series has had the rear cab door welded shut.Many locomotives have a feature called "Ram-Air" (which is a copyrighted name). The system (as I understand it) basically consists of opening the cab door for ventilation.That's all I have for now...now somebody jump in with some more. Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Random thoughts/facts Kuchinator Jan-07-02 1 RE: Random thoughts/facts TAfan Jan-07-02 2 RE: Random thoughts/facts jokeamotive Jan-07-02 3 WHAT IF? jokeamotive Jan-07-02 4 RE: WHAT IF? ertfor3 Jan-07-02 5 RE: WHAT IF? calr Jan-07-02 6 RE: WHAT IF? Starlight Jan-07-02 7 RE: Random thoughts/facts highball5 Jan-08-02 15 RE: Random thoughts/facts jspittler Jan-08-02 8 RE: Random thoughts/facts BlakeTyner Jan-08-02 9 RE: Random thoughts/facts Euston Jan-09-02 23 RE: Random thoughts/facts zeeland174 Jan-08-02 10 RE: Random thoughts/facts TrainTrak5000 Jan-08-02 11 RE: Random thoughts/facts chucksc Jan-08-02 12 RE: Random thoughts/facts chucksc Jan-08-02 13 RE: Random thoughts/facts BlakeTyner Jan-08-02 14 RE: Random thoughts/facts amtrakmatt Jan-09-02 16 RE: Random thoughts/facts zeeland174 Jan-09-02 17 RE: Random thoughts/facts chucksc Jan-09-02 18 RE: Random thoughts/facts TAfan Jan-09-02 19 RE: Random thoughts/facts zeeland174 Jan-09-02 20 RE: Random thoughts/facts rcp27 Jan-13-02 28 RE: Random thoughts/facts chucksc Jan-13-02 29 RE: Random thoughts/facts rcp27 Jan-13-02 27 RE: Random thoughts/facts BlakeTyner Jan-13-02 30 RE: Random thoughts/facts calr Jan-09-02 21 RE: Random thoughts/facts jspittler Jan-09-02 22 RE: Random thoughts/facts stevew Jan-11-02 24 RE: Random thoughts/facts Starlight Jan-11-02 25 Here's a nice 'un BigDave Jan-12-02 26

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Kuchinator (491 posts)
Jan-07-02, 02:44 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" some pontiac gto's also had a "ram-air" thing too. i like the one about the toilets, very funny.
-Christopher-

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TAfan (177 posts)
Jan-07-02, 06:04 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" AFAIK, ram-air (on motorbikes and cars, at least) is a system of semi-forced induction for the engine - not cabin ventilation! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jokeamotive (94 posts)
Jan-07-02, 10:13 AM (EST) 3. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Well in light of the toilet debacle on the NS,
Crews have come to know the NS as the "No S#!tter" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jokeamotive (94 posts)
Jan-07-02, 10:17 AM (EST) 4. "WHAT IF?" What if a NS crewmember was a female. Would she need assistance using the econo toilet?What if Amtrak was never formed? (And the way its going, might not be around for too much longer)What if a train blocks a crossing for more than 10 minutes? Does the police have authorita to issue a ticket? (On the SSW, this actually did happen several times)Points To Ponder........... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ertfor3 (72 posts)
Jan-07-02, 11:47 AM (EST) 5. "RE: WHAT IF?" Here in Fremont Ohio, If a train blocks a crossing for more than 15 minutes they are ticketed, a $100 fine is sent to the railroad, and every 15 minutes after that they get another ticket, also if a train speeds through town they get another one. Happy Rails Patrick Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
calr (17 posts)
Jan-07-02, 11:49 AM (EST) 6. "RE: WHAT IF?" Police DO have the authority to issue a ticket. Many years back in Idaho Falls, Idaho, a UP extra was stopped, blocking a major street in the city. It seems that they lost air to the rear of the train and couldn't release the brakes. The local police gave them an ultimatim that if the train did not clear the intersection in ten minutes (it had already been there for fifteen minutes) they would be cited. I heard all this on my scanner, both the police and the railroad radio conversations.This brings up an interesting question, though. Even if the police cites the railroad, what can they do if the train still doesn't move...tow it?? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Starlight (56 posts)
Jan-07-02, 09:41 PM (EST) 7. "RE: WHAT IF?" I saw something like that once.Minor derailment caused three crossings to be blocked. Well, the railroad had a choice of paying fines, or doing something...their something was to bring an engine to the rear, and cut the train into bits...uncoupling cars around the crossings and just leaving them there...one car width between the cars at the different stations.
Here's my bit of info:Ever hear of the great spaghetti wreck? No? Well you should have. Story is that a few years back, a tractor trailer had got stuck on some train tracks...this train..may have been ns, may have been up, may have been any railroad...but it was a wide cab style; came barrelling along at fifty miles per. Needless to say it couldn't stop; and hit the truck with a resounding SPLAT.Splat you say? Well, the truck was cut in half...the driver feeling a shudder and seeing this large wave of goop explode around his cab. Why? Well...I'm getting to it. See, he was loaded with a full truck load of cans of spaghetti...big ones too.When the train hit it,not only did it punch through the truck...but it kinda splattered the cans of 'ghetti everywhere...leaving a big ugly mess of pasta and sauce all over the nose. In fact, by some twist of fate; a single can got STUCK on the nose at a slight angle. (Saw that picture in MR and cracked up).Personally, I'd love someone to modify a UP Dash 9 to have a 'ghetti' can on its nose...and I'd skin the mess. If nothing else, it'd be cute to have around. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
highball5 (35 posts)
Jan-08-02, 08:14 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Never throw away the little plastic juice bottles when they're empty...if you save enough, it helps solve 50% of the problem.
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jspittler (82 posts)
Jan-08-02, 00:22 AM (EST) 8. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Hmmm, I am a bit skeptical of the RamAire item. By any chance did you get this from page 34 of "Modern Diesel Locomotives", by Hans Halberstadt? When I read this, I assumed the caption was meant to be a joke. Let me know if I am wrong.Judd Spittler
www.juddspittler.com/spittler_engineering/
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BlakeTyner (25 posts)
Jan-08-02, 06:55 AM (EST) 9. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" You know, I was about to say no, I seem to recall reading that in Trains mag..but now that I think about it, I DID see that in "Modern Diesel Locomotives". I had totally forgotten I had that book laying around, and yeah..it was a couple of years ago that I saw that caption and I guess it just was a combo of being stuck in my head and misunderstanding the information. However, it does seem like I've seen something like that mentioned in regards to trains somewhere else...a diesel spec sheet or something somewhere, but I could have just dreamed it up. Glad I put in the parenthetical when I posted that...I knew about Pontiac's RamAire and figured I'd better cover my rear. The other stories and factoids are great as well, some of us should post a few "train-chasing adventure stories". I have some good ones, and a few scary ones as well. Anyway, thanks for clearing up that point...I think I'm getting alzheimers at 20 years old...*sigh* Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Euston (726 posts)
Jan-09-02, 02:06 PM (EST) 23. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" I knew I had hear of ramair before - useful book that - I had no idea what a US diesel loco looked like before hand.Euston

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zeeland174 (59 posts)
Jan-08-02, 10:12 AM (EST) 10. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" >In the 1970's Amtrak ran it's
>locomotives wide open (Run 8)
>all the time, controlling train
>speed with brakes only.
>This was done to conserve
>diesel fuel at a time
>when it was outrageously expensive.
> (And made station stops
>roaringly loud) Woudn't that burn out the traction motors?
and what's the idea about saving fuel. And how does it save feul. during a 2 minute stop woudn't a train use more fuel in run8 than at idle? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TrainTrak5000 (191 posts)
Jan-08-02, 02:02 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" I heard that idling uses eight gallons a minute. Mike Karlik
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chucksc (717 posts)
Jan-08-02, 03:31 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Gentlemen you have it wrong...
The F40 and its Commuter Road predicessor the GP40(p) needs to provide HEP (Head End Power) to the trailing consist. To do that it uses a HEP generator or secondary windings on the main generator. In order to supply the proper power the Prime Mover must be running at Full Throttle all the time it is supplying HEP. What is done is the engineer's controller does not control prime mover RPM which is locked at about 900rpm but controls the flow of current to the traction motors. This produces the unique screaming noise of the prime mover at full throttle during a stop that the F40 and cousins are famous for. When you are tied up in a yard or between runs then the HEP breaker is tripped and the Prime Mover will drop back to normal idle of about 300rpm or so... If you run the engine with the HEP breaker tripped then the prime mover rpm various with the position of the Engineer's controller. Note that the HEP load for 5 or 6 cars takes up to 700hp from the power available for traction. A 3000hp F40 supplying HEP will only have 2300hp available for traction. It is not unheard of to have only some of the locomotives supplying HEP and the others running in non-HEP mode in a multi-unit lashup depending on consist length and power usage. You are correct in that it is a fuel hog, consuming well over 100gph running or idling in HEP mode and 20 or so GPH in "normal idle"... Among other things this is one of the things that contributes to the Ascendency of the Genesis series over the F40. Another item is that the Genesis engines use a solid state inverter to convert the output of the main generator to HEP power instead of a direct connection to the crankshaft of the prime mover. what this does is it allows you to be frequency independent (60hz) of the prime mover speed (the F40 is not.. you need the 893 rpm to generate 60hz power) all you impact at lower throttle settings is "wattage" (power) and the HEP side of the generator will hold the "throttle" high enough to support it... typically this might only be equivelent to Run2 or less.....------Chuck Schneider---------

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chucksc (717 posts)
Jan-08-02, 03:36 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Also there is a variant of the F40 and GP40(p) that uses a Caterpillar auxilliary engine to spin a HEP generator and thus save fuel and noise and pollution over the original running in RUN8 all the time..... These variants can be seen on NJT, MBTA, MARC, Metra and VRE that I know of... But Amtrak never owned any...
------Chuck Schneider---------

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BlakeTyner (25 posts)
Jan-08-02, 06:13 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Re: Amtrak F40'sYes, the F40 had to supply HEP to the trainline. However, the HEP system is "independant" from the throttle itself. The throttle could be set in Run 1 when the HEP was engaged, and the prime mover would automatically rev up to however many RPM's it needed to supply the AC to the train. When the hotel power was disengaged, the prime mover would return to the speed dictated by throttle position. It's a given the throttle would be opened so that the train could move...but that's irrelevent because I was wrong in my post.However, the gist of the post is accurate as per Trains magazine. Where I made my mistake was by saying F40PH. What I meant to say was SDP40F and similar diesels w/ steam generators to supply hotel power. These units were run wide open to conserve fuel. And to answer the question, this is more economical for the same reason your car gets better gas milage on the highway. In a city setting, you are doing a lot of starting and stopping, pumping more and then less gas into the engine. This is actually wasting quite a bit of petrol. Now when you get on the highway and set the cruise control, you are getting a more economical usage from your engine.The same principle applies to locomotives. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
amtrakmatt (10 posts)
Jan-09-02, 02:52 AM (EST) 16. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Well guys
I think Chuck is dead on, and I really don't see how the hell a car relates to a F40 in the aspect of saving fuel. The throttle on the F40 has 8 notches. The higher the notch you are in, with a normal loco, the harder the prime mover works to create more Amperes to power the electic traction motors which move the train (hence deisel-electric locos). The F40's prime mover is constantly in "notch 8" when running the HEP, so yeah it sucks more fuel, but the traction motors are only getting as much juice as the throttle in the cab is set at (so the F40 sounds like it should be doing 80+ mph when its in the station but it would be setting still if the brakes were released). The F40 locomotive is used differently than a car, obviously, and it uses its HEP most of its life. So this makes it less fuel efficient than if it had a seperate motor to power the HEP, and the prime mover could do its main job of making electicity for the traction motors (which dont need full power all the time). Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
zeeland174 (59 posts)
Jan-09-02, 07:44 AM (EST) 17. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" in Trainsim they reinvented the wheel then because the trailing loco is ideling along and giving full power Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chucksc (717 posts)
Jan-09-02, 09:32 AM (EST) 18. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" >in Trainsim they reinvented the wheel
>then because the trailing loco
>is ideling along and giving
>full power Absolutely! This is one of the "Features" (read bug) of TrainSim that some of us have been remarking on (read complaining about) over on the "Locomotive Design" forum for quite some time.... ------Chuck Schneider---------

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TAfan (177 posts)
Jan-09-02, 09:40 AM (EST) 19. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" No, they really have re-invented the wheel! Just check out the Series 7000 LSE without full detail! Unbelievable... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
zeeland174 (59 posts)
Jan-09-02, 10:49 AM (EST) 20. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" i have noticed something else too. read my post Hmmmm interesting, after i turned the lead loco around in the consist editor, wheels and bogies started turning in the right direction (even on the trailing loco's) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rcp27 (14 posts)
Jan-13-02, 09:36 AM (EST) 28. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" >Well guys
>I think Chuck is dead on,
>and I really don't see
>how the hell a car
>relates to a F40 in
>the aspect of saving fuel.
> The throttle on the
>F40 has 8 notches.
>The higher the notch you
>are in, with a normal
>loco, the harder the prime
>mover works to create more
>Amperes to power the electic
>traction motors which move the
>train (hence deisel-electric locos).
>The F40's prime mover is
>constantly in "notch 8" when
>running the HEP, so yeah
>it sucks more fuel, but
>the traction motors are only
>getting as much juice as
>the throttle in the cab
>is set at (so the
>F40 sounds like it should
>be doing 80+ mph when
>its in the station but
>it would be setting still
>if the brakes were released). The basic error you are making here is to assume that the power output of the prime mover is directly linked to the rotational speed of the engine. Because of the need to provide a fixed frequency AC output, the engine must turn over at a fixed speed, but if the locomotive is not driving a train, to do this requires only a little fuel. When the locomotive is pulling the train, the load on the engine is much higher, so to maintain the rotational speed more fuel is needed, because both HEP and traction power are needed. To see this effect for yourself, put your car into neutral, and see how pressing the gas pedal affects the rotational speed of the engine. Then change the load on the engine by putting it in gear, and then try to make the engine do the same rotational speed (make sure you are paying attention to the road as well!). You will find that when powering the car as well, to acheive the same rotational speed, much more fuel needs to be supplied (you need to push the pedal further down). This is obviously easier to observe with a manual transmission, but you can still see the effect with an automatic.Electical controls on the traction generator can alter the electrical load on the prime mover for a fixed rotational speed, so that the power to the traction motors varies with the driver's control setting, without alterning the prime mover rotational speed.Robin Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chucksc (717 posts)
Jan-13-02, 10:15 AM (EST) 29. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" You are correct Robin. I was trying to avoid going that far down in the weeds with details I wasn't too sure how to explain the correlation between generator/alternator rpm and frequency other than to say the frequency is dependant on RPM... However if you are providing HEP for 4 or 5 passenger cars with your F40 then the HEP load is taking about 700hp or about 23.3% of your available 3000hp. And that is before you start turning the wheels..... And the noise level is similar to a 737 at take off power! when you are not providing HEP, you can into the equipment cabinet and basically "open a breaker" and the prime mover on your F40 or GP40p(Non CAT-HEP) will then respond with RPM changes just like a "regular diesel locomotive".
------Chuck Schneider---------

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rcp27 (14 posts)
Jan-13-02, 09:28 AM (EST) 27. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" >These units were run wide
>open to conserve fuel.
>And to answer the question,
>this is more economical for
>the same reason your car
>gets better gas milage on
>the highway. In a
>city setting, you are doing
>a lot of starting and
>stopping, pumping more and then
>less gas into the engine.
> This is actually wasting
>quite a bit of petrol.
> Now when you get
>on the highway and set
>the cruise control, you are
>getting a more economical usage
>from your engine.
>
>The same principle applies to locomotives. I'm afraid to burst your bubble here, but this is not true. The main reason car engines (petrol/gasoline, not diesel) have poor fuel economy in "city" conditions is because they are run for much of the time "throttled". The speed of this type of engine is controlled by throttling the air flow into the piston, so that at less than full power, the engine has to do work to force the air into the piston, leading to a poorer fuel economy. For this reason it is more efficient to drive a car by shifting to a higher gear at a lower speed, and driving with the throttle wide open. The diesel engine does not throttle the air flow into its pistons, it controls power output in an entirely different way, which alows the same efficiency at fractional power outputs as at full power. You'd better look for another solution.Robin Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
BlakeTyner (25 posts)
Jan-13-02, 04:34 PM (EST) 30. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" The statement I made was from a Trains Magazine from about 1992 or '93. If it's wrong then it's wrong. My Cummins Turbo Diesel pickup also gets better fuel economy at full throttle than it does at stop and go driving...so I was under the impression that this was a universal. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
calr (17 posts)
Jan-09-02, 11:27 AM (EST) 21. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Have you ever noticed that switch/yard locomotives always have their diesel engines running, even when they are parked, doing nothing. I was told by a close friend who worked for Southern Pacific all his life that the reason for this is that if they shut the diesels down when not in use, when they cool down, the seals or gaskets on the water cooling jacket break and begin leaking. Has anyone else heard this? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jspittler (82 posts)
Jan-09-02, 12:15 PM (EST) 22. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" As far as always running the engines on locomotives:1) Most locomotives are unable to use antifreeze. As a result, if the engine is stopped in freezing weather, the coolant (water in this case) needs to be drained immediately.2) I have heard that an idling locomotive uses very little fuel. (When NOT performing HEP duties, of course). 3) It may be cheaper to idle the engine continuously, than to stop and start it. This is because the thermal stress and lack of initial lubrication is hard on the engine. (Wasn't there a commercial for motor oil that said "starting your car is a terrible thing to do").Judd Spittler
www.juddspittler.com/spittler_engineering/
Spittler Engineering:
High Quality Freeware
for Microsoft Train Simulator
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stevew (12 posts)
Jan-11-02, 06:45 PM (EST) 24. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" It's 1987. Me, my Dad and my brother have traveled from Indianapolis to Sand Patch for a four-day train-watching/camping trip. We've set up our camp at Manilla. On the second evening, we're sitting around the campfire cooking hotdogs when a grain train stops nearby for a red signal. The crew jumps off the train and joins us at the campsite. As they walk up, one of the crew asks "are there any girls here?"
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Starlight (56 posts)
Jan-11-02, 08:21 PM (EST) 25. "RE: Random thoughts/facts" Two personal experiences...one not really train related but funny, and one that is best called Kharma.I come originally from Mississippi...Greenwood to be exact. Heart of the Delta.
Prior to its closing last year, my old highschool butted right up to a cotton field...big one too. An IC line ran right through the middle of it; bout 300 yards from the school...maybe more maybe less. One day, I'm sitting by the window watching a crop duster zoom about making a real mess of things. This poor guy was not having a good day...wind driving him nuts, players on the football field giving him a high angle of attack...and then the IC had to have a train stop in the block which occupied the rail line. Guy must have been distracted to do what he did next...but I watched as this plane kinda missed its run. Ok, frankly, he pancaked the thing in the middle of that cotton field...got a high bounce, and landed on the other side of the train's locomotive. (I'd hate to have been /that/ engineer...or that pilot for that matter)Just recently...(well, this summer) I watched this vandal get brained by the rock he threw at a passing freight train. The instant he threw that rock, the car happened to sway just right to bat the thing back at him and knock the boy senseless. I was laughing so hard I cried. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
BigDave (71 posts)
Jan-12-02, 02:23 AM (EST) 26. "Here's a nice 'un" Has anyone seen the sectioned engine at the NRM in York, Ellerman Lines? Well, apparently in 1942, when the Great Hall was still LNER York North, a "Jerry cabbage crate" dropped its load smack on top of an A4 stabled there (Sir Ralph Wedgewood). And the curious thing is, Ellerman Lines is parked smack on the same track as the ill-fated express engine. Makes you think doesn't it?BigDave Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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