Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad

The April Railfan & Railroad has a review on 3DTS's Cajon Pass route. Watch for it.Greg Zoll

DT&I MSTS Addons Coming Mid-2004
Email/MSN Messenger: dti407@hotmail.com

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RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, stryder47, Feb-17-04, 08:43 PM, (1) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, John 136 6000 GO, Feb-19-04, 00:08 AM, (3) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, stryder47, Mar-02-04, 11:09 PM, (29) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, shoskins, Feb-17-04, 09:11 PM, (2) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-20-04, 07:26 PM, (4) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, Kip, Feb-21-04, 01:34 AM, (5) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-22-04, 07:45 AM, (6) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, ATSF104, Feb-22-04, 12:14 PM, (7) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, SVTS, Feb-22-04, 06:30 PM, (8) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-23-04, 00:23 AM, (9) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, fcgrizzly, Feb-23-04, 00:56 AM, (10) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-23-04, 08:22 AM, (11) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, shoskins, Feb-23-04, 06:26 PM, (12) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-23-04, 11:50 PM, (13) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, SVTS, Feb-24-04, 07:25 AM, (15) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, shoskins, Feb-24-04, 03:49 PM, (16) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-24-04, 10:07 PM, (17) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, shoskins, Feb-25-04, 03:21 PM, (18) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, SouthwestChief, Feb-25-04, 06:00 PM, (19) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, asn5000, Feb-25-04, 08:35 PM, (21) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-26-04, 08:27 AM, (22) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, asn5000, Feb-27-04, 07:49 AM, (25) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, oakpalms, Mar-02-04, 10:21 PM, (27) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, SVTS, Mar-02-04, 10:31 PM, (28) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, gatewaycityca, Feb-24-04, 02:11 AM, (14) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, PatchCrew, Feb-25-04, 07:23 PM, (20) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, 3DRailHound, Feb-26-04, 09:04 AM, (23) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, ATSF104, Feb-26-04, 06:22 PM, (24) RE: Cajon Pass Route Review in Railfan & Railroad, oakpalms, Mar-02-04, 10:08 PM, (26)

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Wish I could get either magazine, but when you live in the sticks, your choices are few. Stock car racing and Woman's Home Journal seems to be the choices around here.
Oh well.TimWestern Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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Hi Tim"Wish I could get either magazine"Here's where super-meticulous attention to puctuation helps. It's actually one magazine - "Railfan & Railroad". I have to hunt around for it a bit where I live. There's one store which caries a wide range of magazines and newspapers, and they usually have a few copies - sometimes I can also get "Train" magazine there also.I'll look forward to getting that issue. I was given a subscription for a Christmas present and the April issue should be the first one to arrive in the mail. CheersJohnp.s. If you're interested, here's there web site. http://www.railfan.com or http://www.carstens-publications.com for the parent company

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Well, nothing like putting a former English major and teacher in his place for not looking carefully to what is written! :O
Just kidding. Should have looked more closely. Sorry!TimWestern Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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I'llhave to check it out, I hope they gave it a good review.3DTS's Cajon Pass captures the flavor of the pass very well. Enough so that my wife was able to recognize certain locations in the simulator!!

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According to one of our guys that got their issue today, our Cajon Pass got a pretty good review
Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-04 AT 01:34 AM (EST)

It did.It was a good review. I read it today when I got it in the mail. Page 23? There were some good comments about the San Bernadino (bad spelling) station and the yards...seemed like a good boost for 3DTS. Congrats!Kip

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Thanks Kip, and yes I saw it too..Bruce Kelly wrote it, and it sounds like him and his son are having a blast on the route Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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Brad about 3DTS do u have another project (route) in mind after u get donner pass done? My suggestion would be to make the Santa Fe Needles sub. From Barstow to Needles roughly 168 miles. There are also interchanges along the route such as the Arizona & California. So i just thought i'd throw that idea out there. And yes 3DTS did get an awesome review for Cajon. -MattATSF GP60M #104 works on the local in Flagstaff, AZ.

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I am getting ready to go out and get the issue now...hopefully. I agree that Barstow to Needles would be great, but Needles to Winslow would be even better. From sea level to over 7,000 feet in about 200 miles.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York
www.msnusers.com/AshleyPhotography
www.msnusers.com/tehachapirails3rd shift Production Lead, Krispy Kreme, East Syracuse NY. www.krispykreme.com

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We are working on four route projects at the moment, Donner1, Donner2, Beaumont Pass, and the ol Espee El Paso Sub between Tuscon, Az and Demming,NM..now there, the cats been let out of the bag so to speak..and please don't ask me when they will be released, when we get close, you will see more info on our website Btw, we are also considering doing a route set up in northern Maine as well..however, its only in the research stage at the moment. But yea, lots going on around here these days.And I do thank you for the route suggestions, I'll keep them in mind Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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Hey, I'm just the average train-simer born in the mid-west and now living in the southeast. I have never been to southen California, but I have taken the Southwest Cheif to Raton NM twice. I just bought Cajon Pass and Tehachapi and the expansions. I cant wait to get home from the desert (not US) and play them. I really like the way your first two US routes were basically one long route and you can continue one activity from one to the other. I would love to see you continue in this direction, adding on to either end would be cool.

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Yes, I like the continuity angle as well, and Beaumont Pass will do just that, take the line east out of West Colton towards Indio, and Yuma..big grades on that pass too Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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>but Needles to Winslow would be even better. From sea
>level to over 7,000 feet in about 200 miles. Here's some pertinent elevations (mileages), that IS some roller coaster of a route!! (Mileage I'm quoting is by exit numbers on I-40, elevations came from various websites)Needles: 0 miles, 488 feet above sea level
(CA-AZ State Line about 12 miles -- slightly lower than Needles)
Kingman: 48 miles, 3334 feet
Seligman: 123 miles, 5237 feet
Williams: 163 miles, 6780 feet
Flagstaff: 195 miles, 7000 feet
Winslow: 253 miles, 4850 feetNot sure exactly where the summit of the lien owuld be, somewhere in/around Flagstaff. But that stretch from Needles to Kingman, that is some climbing!! Three thousand feet in a little over 50 miles....

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Steve,Is there a helper district on that sub?Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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Brad, I don't think there is a helper district per say, I think they just load up the power units, afterall it is over 200 miles to the summit. I would assume the extra power might remain on the train to either Winslow or even Belen, who knows. If you decide to ever do that route, I have a number of videos you can borrow including the cabride set from Needles to Winslow.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York
www.msnusers.com/AshleyPhotography
www.msnusers.com/tehachapirails3rd shift Production Lead, Krispy Kreme, East Syracuse NY. www.krispykreme.com

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Honestly, I don't know. I've only driven back and forth on I-40 a couple dozen times, and don't recall ever seeing helpers...but that doesn't preclude their use. I gonna go out on a limb and guess, with the size of the engine facilities that AT&SF had at Winslow, and also at Needles, that, YES, there's helper use.The only place I can honestly say I've seen helpers was waaaaay back in 1968 when our family spent the night in Holbrook -- couple of coal trains came through with SD24's or Alco DL600B's, and RCE cars (Radio Control equipment). And those coal trains were FLYING!!! Coming from the area around New York City, I didn't know a freight could move that fast!

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It would be interesting to research the line back in the late 40s like 1948 or 49..I'm sure there was much more going on along it than today..where were the water, oil, and coaling stops? Did they use alot of oil burners on it back then? and what did all the old stations look like? and were their any narrow guage lines that interchanged along there??Hmm..I wish I had the time to research it, but my plate is runneth over at the present Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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>It would be interesting to research the line back in the
>late 40s like 1948 or 49Uh, that's before my time...I'm not THAT old!
>Hmm..I wish I had the time to research it, but my plate is
>runneth over at the present With what, Loop Burgers?? ;-O

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Way back when, Ash Fork used to be a helper location on the Winslow to Needles line. A relocation in 1960, (Williams Crookton) basically made Ash Fork only acessable on the Peavine line (the single track to Phoenix). With the power and dynamic brakes of the locos of today, there is no need for helpers on this fast strech of track. The Southwest Chief usually has four locos when travesing the area, and most freights have four to six locos. I would absolutely love to see the needles to Winslow route. It has the most amazing scenery (I think) of the whole BNSF LAX-CHI mainline. Flagstaff is beautiful, the Crookton cutoff is 90mph for the Southwest Chief, and the Grand Canyon line is there too. Just an action packed area, that should really be duplicated in MSTS. As a side note, the Barstow to Needles route is rather boring when compared to Needles to Winslow. All you have is desert and more desert. Very desolate, and not much in the way of scenery. Some grades here and there, but again if I wanted to market a route that was interesting, it'd be Needles to Winslow.
Matt

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/fdoti/index.html

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Where in Maine are you doing the route?

Conrail rules!!!

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Well since its still in the research stage, I'm open to suggestions Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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>Well since its still in the research stage, I'm open to
>suggestions I don't know much about railroading in Maine but I DO have one idea, I know you said northern Maine but a Boston to Portland Guilford (or Boston & Maine and Maine Central) would be cool. Amtrak just started running on this line a year or two ago.Your routes are great! I like modern Mid-Atlantic (PA, NY, NJ, OH and MD) railroads and din't care for western route much but every time I buy you're stuff I become a huge fan of the route! That review was great! I always read Railfan and I was happy to see Cajon was in there

Conrail rules!!!

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Brad,I am glad to see that you have time to respond to comments on the forum concerning 3DTS. I am a bit irritated that your responses to email questions do not get the same attention. As an owner of four 3DTS programs, I feel I should get some consideration.1. When will there be an upgrade for Cajon Pass and Tehachapi puting in more Mile Post markers, location designators, and unfinished crossings? Mile Posts every 20-25 miles makes it very difficult to locate such things as cross overs in developing activities, and for slowing an engine for an upcoming switching operation. Cross overs and passing sidings without any identification also makes it very hard to develop activities. How can you identify a path if there is no reference to guide you? For example on the Cajon Pass there are at least five sidings and I think Boron is the only one that has a reference.2. How about making it optional whether a missed crossing signal will halt an activity or not? There are times when I am trying to make an activity and I am checking for train meets and getting called by my wife--oops, I missed a crossing and I've lost 15-20 minutes of work? Give us the option to remove that setting.Bob Edwards

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I can slightly help you with issue #1...I put out a guide a while back that trys to break Cajon down a bit to make it easier to slow for crossovers and sidings.Chris Bogley
Syracuse New York
www.msnusers.com/AshleyPhotography
www.msnusers.com/tehachapirails3rd shift Production Lead, Krispy Kreme, East Syracuse NY. www.krispykreme.com

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I actually live in San Bernardino, so I'm a bit biased One of my friends has the Cajon Pass route and I had a chance to run it. Overall, it seemed to be very well done! The portion where you leave the San Bernardino station on Third Street from the east, (en route to Barstow) and run adjacent to the 215 freeway was right on target. The route really captured the general look of the area.The only small issue I had with this is that the route had a little bit too much of an "industrial" look to it here. Around the Santa Fe station, there is some light industry, such as the old ice house, warehouses, auto repair shops, etc. But on the east side of the 215 freeway, it is mostly residential. The area is mostly housing, some houses dating back to the 1920s and even earlier. But the Cajon Pass route depicted it to look a little too plain and industrial. I live in the north end of San Bernardino, and I drive on that freeway every day. Where the freeway splits, one side becoming the 30 crosstown freeway to Redlands, and the other going to the Cajon Pass, is at about 27th Street and that is just about all housing. There used to be another Santa Fe line here, by the way, called the Kite Line. It branched off from the main line and made an oblong loop through the valley. It was abandoned many years ago, long before my time.
I'm 26.Also, I seemed to remember an area around Colton where there was a strange problem with the terrain. There was just a white void, where there was no ground! The track and scenery just seemed to floating in an empty white space. But I think I have read about this problem some people have had with their custom routes...some problem with the DEM data or terrain tiles. Well, like I said, I live in San Bernardino so I might have been looking at the route a little more critically than most people would.Chris Tobar

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>I'm sure there was much more going on along it than todayHold on a minute there Brad! I take it you don't mean more rail traffic then than now. When I returned from Arizona almost two weeks ago I came back I-40. Between Kingman and Topock (on the Colorado River) I saw 6 trains in that roughly 40 minute drive! Back in California between Ludlow and Daggett there were 12 trains on the rails and half of them were eastbounds headed to Needles! Sounds pretty busy to me!Personally I would like to see the Needles to Winslow route before the Tucson route or the Beaumont route and yes I'm partial to Beaumont! Needles to Winslow would be a great route with it all, desert running, forests, distant mountains, mountain grades, canyons, a lot of scenic variety but it would be a heck of a route to create in MSTS at around 250 miles.Just my two cents Mr. Brown. PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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PatchCrew, you are correct, but what I meant was that I believe there were many more industries along that line back then that were served by the railroad. I also believe there were alot more passenger train services running back then..you also have steam and deisel operations too.So my thinking is that there would be several more different types of train operations we could offer people with a route that was set back in the late 40s.And of course I will make a note of your preference regarding which one you would like to see released first.Stay safe, and keep 'em on the high irons out there
Best regards,
Brad Brownwww.3DTrainStuff.com

Check out our Cajon Pass & Tehachapi Pass Routes..also Donner Pass, the Sierra Crossing route is coming soon..

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Well Brad you make a very good point you could use the super chief if you went back then but if you use now there are plenty of industries along the line. Here i'll name some of them. Canyon Diablo Bridge Spur almost like a siding where trains set out cars that will go down the peavine, Many industries in Flagstaff Beer plants, purina mill, lumber, station spurs. At Maine, Arizona there are 2 through spurs like sidings, another at williams jct., az. Where amtrak stops (no station just a small concrete platform) this is also where the peavine splits off toward Pheonix if you do include that then i suggest that u end it at ash fork or go all the way down to Pheonix and back up toward Cali. Seligman has a Wye and a spur. Thats all i can remember. But if you plan on making this route u could make AZ. and CA. engines maybe put in some BNSF/SF -9's, maybe a run-through NS high hood, ATSF 104 , and some SF SD40-2's and Dash 8-40BW's just my suggestion.-Matt ATSF GP60M #104 works on the local in Flagstaff, AZ.

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Chris,I wonder since you live in San Bernardino if you can tell me just how realistic is the yard layouts on 3DTS' Cajon Pass Route compared with the actual yards? The MSTS version has no service tracks for engines for the San Bernardino area. That is hard to believe. I don't understand why 3DTS would not include them at San Bernardio since they did at Barstow. I have heard that someone at 3DTS said it was not done to keep the frame rates higher. However, track does not decrease the frame rates, but placing rolling stock on the track does. I would like to find out just how real the 3DTS yards really are.Thanks.Bob Edwards

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