I would rather discuss railroads

I am certainly not one to advocate abusing anyones rights, and maybe have found the opportunity to apply a size 14 to the backside of a few that I observed abusing others rights. That said..
I really didn't come to this forum for a social tonic. I didn't come here to stretch the bounds of my tolerance. I didn't come here to find creative outlets for my humor (or lack thereof). I didn't even come here to argue about whose toy is prettier, more fun, easier to repaint, will get built first, is the worst, shouldn't have been done, or needs the most improvement. All that is a matter of taste and I enjoy the opportunity to choose what I like, even if someone else thinks it is horrible.
What I did come here for is to enjoy railroading and learn about ways to make the simulator or simulators model that railroading experience. If you have something to say that really furthers that cause I aplaud you and want more of that. If you just want to create discord, I don't appreciate your effort. It is getting in the way of enjoying what I came here to discuss.
Lets get back to trains.
Bob

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RE: I would rather discuss railroads, OTTODAD, Feb-15-04, 12:35 PM, (1) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, plainsman, Feb-15-04, 01:27 PM, (3) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, amadjuster, Feb-16-04, 09:51 AM, (12) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, LAHDPOP, Feb-16-04, 10:23 AM, (13) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, buzzbenz, Feb-15-04, 01:15 PM, (2) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, jtr1962, Feb-15-04, 03:16 PM, (4) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, Baldwinbob, Feb-15-04, 08:44 PM, (5) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, smallspy, Feb-15-04, 08:58 PM, (6) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, stryder47, Feb-15-04, 10:22 PM, (7) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, Baldwinbob, Feb-15-04, 11:38 PM, (8) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, jlucero4, Feb-16-04, 02:33 AM, (9) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, pwillard, Feb-16-04, 07:59 AM, (10) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, OTTODAD, Feb-16-04, 08:21 AM, (11) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, CSX_CW60AC_GregMarck, Feb-16-04, 08:20 PM, (14) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, stryder47, Feb-17-04, 06:17 AM, (15) RE: I would rather discuss railroads, stryder47, Feb-17-04, 06:43 AM, (16)

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Hi Bob !Was a long time ago when you chewed me out talking about the COLUMBUS disaster in a thread in this here Forum, not because it was considered "Off Subject" then but because of what I said, most of it having been confirmed by the following Investigation and what could have been done to prevent it.Seems, reading the RULES Anchor, that this has now changed ? We no longer can discuss GENERAL MATTERS but only GENERAL TRAIN SIM MATTERS, be they MSTS, TRAINZ, BVE or others ?If so then what it the purpose of a GENERAL TRAIN SIM FORUM, dealing with questions and subjects for which there are SPECIFIC Forums, leaving little room for questions which can not be answered in them ?The only purpose for it I can see is to discuss the Pros and Cons of competing Train Sims ! And if that is so then I would like to suggest that everybody reads what AURAN TRAINZ RAILROAD SIMULATOR are planning for the Future of their Train Sim and ask MICROSOFT why we can not have the same and BETTER in MSTS-NEXT ! O t t o

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-04 AT 02:08 PM (EST)

Hi Otto,
First let's refight the old battle. If your original intent was to say more should have been done to prevent a space craft from suffering damage, and more should have been done to anticipate problems and come up with contingencies to handle them, I whole heartedly agree with you. That is what I see resulting from sudsequent investigation. Now as I recall, you had two other points with which I still MOST STRONGLY disagree, 1) that NASA knew something was wrong and didn't care to fix it. 2) That NASA could have launched a rescue mission. Neither of these allegations have been given any credibility by anyone with any investigation.
Now that said, I didn't and don't think the the discussion helped anyone learn how to simulate railroading. When we discuss trains and railroads, folks here are much more likely to find some common ground.
Now I have absolutely no problem with discussing the merits and weaknesses of any and all simulators in the correct forum venue. I do think it highly inappropriate to spread misinformation and deliberate false information, just to create rancor and to polarize some position of one simulator over another. If the discussion is about what MSTS1 can do or can't and about how Trainz2004 can do it better or worse, I have absolutely no issue with it. I do think discussion of some factually incorrect position of MicroSoft is inappropriate, and might create liability for the forum (I am not an attorney, don't take legal advice from an engineer or scientist).
If we discuss what we want in a new simulator by MS, Auran, or BillieBob's Simulations (a subsidary of BillieBob's Bank), that is great!! I do think it highly unproductive to discuss what "Angie said" about MSTS2 or MSTS3.1. I also find it pretty difficult to discuss the merits of a program that is not even in the writing stage, against and another that is still being written. Let's tell them both what we want, and hope both get some of it in their version when it appears.
Bob

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This may be a technicality, but since NASA uses rails to move the shuttle/launch vehicle to the pad, doesn't this make this "On Topic"?
"Rails is rails"
Just curious.DP

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Actually, NASA uses a tracked "crawler" to transport the assembled launch vehicle and its pad to the launch site. No rails involved that I know of. (Nice try, though!)PopPic:

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I totally agree Bob!Highball!
------ BUZZ

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I agree 100%. There are other places I go to discuss politics, current events, etc. If we can also discuss those things here, wonderful. If not, just talking about trains is fine, although I still think it would be nice to hear about the other interests of people I've come to know here.All that being said, my primary criticism has been the deleting of entire threads, and not just off-topic ones. This even happened way before the mods came under heavy criticism. I for one don't like writing a long post only to have the entire thread deleted because two other people get into a flame war. It is very disconcerting to look for a thread you were enjoying and then find it gone with no explanation. If a thread gets out of hand, just lock it and edit out the profane parts of any posts. Deleting a thread which contains even one iota of potentially useful information in my opinion shows great disrespect for the community and for the person who wrote it, even if it is allowed according to the rules. This and the plethora of nonsense threads by people with a second grade reading level are why I haven't been here as much as I might otherwise be, and also why I might not have posted things that may have been of use to the community. In fact, if not for you and a few others, I might not bother coming here at all any more. We really need to ask ourselves what happened around here. This place was great when it first started. The download library is still great. However, the forums have steadily gone downhill, first because of trolls, and now because of this.Yes, let's get back to discussing trains, but let's also have some reasonable expectation that threads won't do the mysterious disappearing act either unless they're 100% garbage. If this continues, I suspect more valuable members will do the same disappearing act, and the mods will get the forums in the peaceful state they desire because nobody will be posting any more.

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>>> I suspect more valuable members will do the same disappearing act, and the mods will get the forums in the peaceful state they desire because nobody will be posting any more.<<<Well....we sure don't want that to happen, so, I'll stick my neck out here and probably get it chopped off.I think having moderators in their teens and early 20's could be a problem. They have the mindset of: those old fogies, over 30, don't have a clue. I know way more than you and I am never wrong. I know I did when I was younger.Just a thought.Bob

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...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-04 AT 08:59 PM (EST)

Bob, while I know that is certainly the case with many of us younger folk....I know that for myself and several others, that's not the case...you "old fogies" have a lot of experience and knowledge that us younger folk would/should love to hear about.Sadly, I fear that we are not the majority however.As for the other Bob (plainsman)...I agree with you 110%.The vast majority of us are here as a hobby. A hobby is supposed to be fun and help relieve stress, not cause more.DanMaking a mockery of serious business for 23 years.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-04 AT 10:44 PM (EST)

Bob,et al,Irrespective of my position on the current level of moderators, all I want is to be able to discuss trains here. That is all I have ever wanted. I guess I get a little peeved when it appears (and I have more than that to go further but I won't) that the older crowd is being singled out and somewhat chastised for their knowledge. And certain other people are being singled out as well for other reasons, unknown to me or most others.
I am spending a lot of time on other forums now where there are many of the people that were once here. The atmosphere on them is so different than here that it just astounds me. We haven't these kind of problems over there and there seems to be respect for one another. Why? There are many reasons, but I think the biggest one is because the moderator, notice no plural there, allow us to talk about other subjects from time to time, and allow us to be ourselves. That makes a big difference.
And I do apologize to people like you Bob, and many others I have known from days way gone by, for getting into this shooting war, but no one else seemed to want to come to the plate. I just thought it was necessary to espouse our cause and complaints. It obviously has done no good so I have stopped and will keep silent for the most part on the subject from now on.
I just want to discuss trains too, everyone, but I want to be able to discuss them without the black cloud of suddenly deleted posts hanging over what I say. That is all I want. That isn't much that I am asking for. I don't think so anyway.
One more point, what is the problem with discussing MSTS2 in any manner? I am afraid I just don't understand the problem there, or did I miss something that happened before I returned to have this subject taboo. What is wrong with discussing it? I fail to understand that one. It is, after all, train related, is it not? And is there something wrong with speculation that upsets so many people. I fail to understand that either. Oh well. I am just another spike in the tracks, like everyone else. So roll your wheels over me and keep on railing. Let's get back to trainsimming. That's why we are all here, isn't it?oh by the way, here is an intelligent quote! "If you don't like it, than don't come here anymore, simple as that." Chris Bogley.Well, many aren't and it has everything to do with this type of attitude. Surely Bob, et al, you can't agree with this kind of attitude? I rest my case and leave it for the jury to decide the case. Ranger (Tim)Western Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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How about this kidsI think Ottodad and Ranger would make two great moderators.Ya think?Bob

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...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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>>>I think Ottodad and Ranger would make two great moderators.<<<I agree, I'd certainly like to see one or both of them as moderators. These forums could use someone of their type to be a moderator.Jordan L.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-04 AT 08:02 AM (EST)

While we are discussing opinions. Here is mine.1) Cut the crap about the mods being young... The last batch was too and they tested the waters, just like the current crew. They will settle in soon enough and HOPEFULLY will not become complacent about Off-Topic, Troll, or Flame posts.2) In my opinion, Posts that do not follow the rules and serve NO obvious purpose deserve to be "edited" out. I think that's fair.3) A Forum is a long term comprehensive resource that grows out of the collective input of a community. In our case, we share ideas about railroad related 3D Model Building, skinning and general simulator and prototypical operations. When we stray from those core items, we dilute the content of the forum.A Forum is *NOT* however: a) a replacement for a Chat room where individuals poke each others personal hot buttons for entertainment and instant gratification or otherwise show that verbal diarrhea is their current affliction.b) a replacement for email. Personal messages have no place in a forum.c) a replacement for your therapist. You can whine and complain about the state of the world to your therapist because you PAY them. You are not paying us, so keep the whining to a minimum please.
4) In my opinion, folks here need to "Deal with change". MSTS2 isn't on time... TA is STILL busy, The Mods "HAVE" changed, a lot of the "good" guys have already left MSTS for greener pastures... need I say more?
And, BTW... Regarding this previous statement that read "I think Ottodad and Ranger would make two great moderators." If it came true? I'd be finding greener pastures myself. That's how I'd deal with "that" change.
Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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> And, BTW... Regarding this previous statement that read
> "I think Ottodad and Ranger would make two great moderators."
> If it came true? I'd be finding greener pastures myself.
> That's how I'd deal with "that" change. Never fear, Pete !I would not dream of accepting such an appointment ! I sound and act the way I do because at my age I have learned to be DIPLOMATIC and that there is nothing in it for me to be otherwise. But this does not imply that many times, having to bite my lip and not respond in the heat of the moment, things are not gnawing my inside, raising my Blood Pressure, which is the last thing I need after my Heart Attack last August.I get enough HASSLE from some of my clients, but then they PAY me ! O t t o

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-04 AT 08:20 PM (EST)

or how bout we just drop the damn issueand go back to our lives. Grow up people, not worth have 20 threads about the same damn subject. Let the mods do their job and stop riding their a$$. Now...back to Trains.
EDITFinally hit 1k Greg
HighV0lt6ge - AIM/AOL
gregoryis411@hotmail.com

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Well thank you very much for that fine endorsement Pete. I appreciate it. I remember a time when we used to chat and talk back and forth like two very good friends. What have I done to you to change all that, that is what I would like to know? If you remember correctly, when the Keystone works was formed I was right in there with you all with all of my support and encouragement, even going so far as to offer my assistance in the creation of your website. I am at a loss for what has turned you against me other than my posts in regards to the moderating situation.
I have tried to be straightforward, use intelligent reasonings, have tried my best not to let it come down to a single person issue.1. I have never said they were too young. Ever! I think, however that there is some prejudice against some of us older members. 2. I agree with your second statement but not to where it is not known that it is going to be done. Mac, yesterday did this the proper way. He stepped in and suggested the topic was off topic and that if it did not change it would be deleted. This is the proper way to deal with the situation. Then we know the why and whatnot's of deleted posts.3. Well, that is your opinion. While I agree with most of what you say, there was a time here that it was felt that there was a need for general information and that is why the general forum was created. No, not for email stuff,etc. but to be able to discuss trains and train related issues, as well as have disagreements (no not downright flamewars or the like) but if we cannot have a good debate on a subject having to do with trains then what good is a forum. It becomes old, stale and doesn't serve much purpose as a forum. We have specific areas for specific discussions and specific problems, that I see is where your advice in number three is appropriate, but in the general area, this is the area for discussion. That is what it was set up for, I know and you should know, we were both here. Now perhaps I missed some really bad flamewars when I was gone, but since I have returned, I haven't seen such things happening. Not to the extent where the entire thread should be removed without warning.4. I can deal with it and am. I think you are having problems dealing with a little disagreement about the nature of the changes. It is most strange Pete that I have receieved more positive mail on this subject in the last four or five days than you would believe. I get for 7 to 10 emails a day and 7 to 10 PM's a day in support of my argument. Now this may be a small hill compared to the number of members here, but it is a larger amount than even I expected. Are these people to just pack their bags and leave as you seem to imply? You would be surprised at some of their names too. I will not divulge them but you would be surprised as I was, and it isn't Ottodad or Dep or those you think either.I really don't understand you Pete. Either you have really changed in the year and a half since I took ill or you were not the person I thought you were to begin with. I am really taken aback by your statement But have no fear, I wouldn't take the job if they came and begged me. Know why? Because I would probably get canned for doing the job the way it is supposed to be done instead of just locking a thread with no warning. No thank you, whoever suggested it. Not on your life. But I appreciate the confidence you have in me. I really do. No, Mr. Willard wouldn't like someone like me, apparently, and I am not here to make enemies. I am here, despite what he says, to talk about Trains, MSTS, MSTS2, et all. But I am also here to fight for fairness and objectivity and to back the little guys who seem to get their posts deleted because of who they are and not what they say, or who may wander off course from time to time but get no help in getting back on course and thus get unfairly chastised here. And I will continue to do so, despite Mr. Willard's objections until I get kicked off of here. And mark my words all, the minute I get kicked out of here for that reason is the minute you will see a lot of others go as well.
If you can make your statements on the subject, as you did above and not get this thread deleted Mr. Willard, so can I! Talk about flaming, I would say your last statement falls into that category!Now, tell me please what I did to you that has changed between our sessions in the trainsim chat room as well as here before I became ill and now? I would really like to know that. I really would. Ranger (Tim)Western Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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Bob, that is what I want to do too, but you know what, I can't enjoy it when posts are locked and I can't find a reason for it after reading the post. And some of it is very interesting, and about trains, at least since I have been back.
If you go through all of the posts here in the last month, you will see my name on a very large amount of them trying to help people with their MSTS problems. I am not here to bring discord but I am not going to sit idly by either and read statements like "If you don't like it leave", "I am doing my job, too bad". or, "this could turn into a flame war so I am deleting the post". C'mon Bob this isn't right. You may be able to sit idly by and see this happen, but not me. It just isn't right.
I don't like discord either. I try to get along with everyone here and have usually succeeded. I like everyone here. I hate no one. I never have and never will, but there are certain things being done and said that I have a problem with. I tried to PM and get the situation looked into but that didn't work. And so now we have this.
It's a mess.
By the way, and all will be shouting with glee, I am sure, this is my last post in this General forum and my last time in the General forum. I will stay where we discuss trains and not get our posts pulled quite as often.
Bob, I highly respect you and always have, you have helped me in so many ways it isn't funny and I will never be able to repay you. You know me. I am not into trying to hurt or flame or attack anyone. I am not built that way and never have been, but when it comes to moderating. I do know the job, I do know what it entails and what it does not entail, and if anyone wants my credentials in that area I will be glad to PM them to that person. I am 57 years old, I am no child, I believe in peoples rights, I believe in fairness and that is not going to change simply because someone like Mr. Willard, of whom I used to have a lot of respect also, wants me to.
I am doing all in my power right now not to erupt into a real verbal tirade that would get me kicked out of here, I really am, so I will stop here and say goodbye to the General forum for good. And if it becomes so necessary, then the entire forum. I will not and cannot put up with childishness and lack of responsibility. And that is what we have here now.
Sorry, Bob, this was not aimed at you or anyone in particular. I have simply had it, as have a number of yours and my personal friends. You know who they are. We are having to put up with more than is right here. And many are leaving. It's a real shame. It really is. And that's all I have to say about that!TimWestern Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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