What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?

It was there yesterday and not today. I will agree that over the last year, many things got out of control. Tempors flared, flame wars occured etc. More needed to be done for sure. But I think the pendulam has gone to far the other way. There has been more deleted and locked posts in the last couple weeks than the last 2 years combined.In the beginning, (and I was here at the beginning) the forum was peaceful place where you came to learn new things that others were discovering about this new piece of software. I can still remember some of the first post from Nels on how easy it was to re-texture rolling stock. Remmber the NH repaints? Then the forums changed as more people knew the software. Then it was how can we improve it, get rid of the bugs, will Microsoft ever talk to us and will there be a patch. Now the forum has grown to one of speculation and frustration. In other words, the forum has followed the life cycle, the same evolution of a new products. We have a mature product in respects to MSTS1. Not saying there won't be another version, but MSTS1 is in the sustaining part of it's life cycle. Yes, new things are turned out, but it's using what exists.Just my 02 cents. I hope some common sense comes back in here, but that probably won't happen until MSTS2. Then the whole thing (product life cycle) starts over with everyone being civil as we learn and so on. I think we will get to the hostilities sooner though since the path is known.

David Klemm
Illinos & St Louis Divisions
IC Version 1.0 uploaded

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What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response? [View All], DKlemm, 09:27 AM, Feb-12-04, (0) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, pwillard, Feb-12-04, 10:45 AM, (1) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, Macster, Feb-12-04, 11:27 AM, (2) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, DKlemm, Feb-12-04, 12:03 PM, (3) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, Macster, Feb-12-04, 12:19 PM, (4) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, stryder47, Feb-13-04, 01:43 AM, (8) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, DKlemm, Feb-13-04, 12:34 PM, (13) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, plainsman, Feb-12-04, 12:46 PM, (5) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, muskokaandtahoe, Feb-12-04, 05:52 PM, (6) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, stryder47, Feb-13-04, 01:17 AM, (7) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, Stooopid_person, Feb-13-04, 06:44 AM, (9) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, KngtRider, Feb-13-04, 09:45 AM, (10) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, Macster, Feb-13-04, 10:32 AM, (11) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, DKlemm, Feb-13-04, 12:29 PM, (12) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, robertreedy, Feb-13-04, 01:52 PM, (14) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, CARex, Feb-13-04, 02:58 PM, (15) RE: What happened to the Ottodad post on MS response?, ssw, Feb-13-04, 05:28 PM, (16)

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There has been more deleted and locked posts in the last couple weeks than the last 2 years combined.HOGWASH!Posts that are creating hostilities will be removed at the MODERATORS discretion. This is posted in the Forum Rules.Which I quote from "Furthermore, due to the varying nature of conflict or other issues that may arise, it should be understood that the application and enforcement of these rules or those otherwise deemed necessary may be enforced to a greater or lesser degree without warning. "Pete Willard


http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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and Furthermore, I was the one that told Bradley to nuke those posts. The stuff that has been posted in the last 2 days is all the reason needed to close down the TS 2 forum.

Sounder Commuter Rail
Everett to Tacoma
Coming Summer 2004

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In my opoinion, the nuking of post while necessary has gone to far to the other side. Your entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. And the nuking of post that express an opinion because it differs with someone elses will further push away the wrong people from the forum. Ottodads post of the response from MS wasn't inflamatory, contained no attacking words etc. Only was a cut and paste of a response. So now were nuking those???? sad day.

David Klemm
Illinos & St Louis Divisions
IC Version 1.0 uploaded

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What's the point of posting something when it's not even going to be replied to. Why would Microsoft waste their time with a small guy and a letter? It's pointless to post something saying i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do that, knowing that he isn't gonna get a response, it's a wasted effort, and he needs to do what everybody else has been doing. Sitting and Waiting, Enjoying the current sim that we have.Nobody is going to reply unless the Game Dev gives the OK, and that won't happen for quite some time, if at all.And David for reference, yes, things have changed, the rules are more enforced, blame the kids and alot of the ADULTS on this forum for acting like they are 3 years old without a brain.

Sounder Commuter Rail
Everett to Tacoma
Coming Summer 2004

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Brian, I like you and always have but to suppose that something is going to happen based upon a single post is ridiculous. In fact, it is this type of action that leads to dissent and causes more problems than it repairs. I know the reasons, I was here, and even went to Nels and suggested you as a moderator, as you should well remember, for having moderators in the first place. But, since returning, I have noticed that the moderators have swung the pendulum the opposite way, as David Klemm mentioned above, and are causing more friction than help. I have talked privately to a number of people who have left this forum or who are spending a lot less time on it and their number one reason given is because of the posts that are being deleted without any explanation.
Please see my above post in reply to Pete's post. I firmly believe that. One can never assume...(and in case you have never heard the expression before) "because is makes an a$$ out of you and me".I somewhat agree with you assessment of the original post by Ottodad, but does that mean it should be taken off because IYHO it MIGHT give rise to problems or would not be replied to? Not on your life or mine. Moderators were brought on here to quell the problems that were being brought on by the kids for the most part. And if you are suggesting that I am an adult acting like a 3 year old without brains then I say sir that you are very much in the wrong and I would expect more coming from you. There is nothing wrong with my brain, I might have serious problems in other parts of my anatomy, but no sir, not brains, and for the other adults on this forum (and I could be like you and ASSUME you are talking about us older ones, but I won't) I take this as a personal insult for the rest of the community. You are giving no credit to the intelligence of this community as a whole by your statement.Like I said Brian, I like you, you have done a lot for this community, and I like Pete who has also contributed much to this community, but this isn't about liking or not liking. You both are wrong in your assessments of the people here and the rules in general. And if it continues to go the way that David and I feel it is going, it is going down the tubes. One cannot run rules based upon supposition or possibilities. It is totally ridiculous.My three cents and a bit more. And I have every right under the current rules to express this opinion. Read them!Ranger
"Just another old f$rt "acting like a three year old without a brain".Western Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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Stryder;My other favorite saying is; Opinoins are like a**holes, everyone has one.
Brian;Hope you didn't take any of my comments as a personal attack. Moderators do have a thankless job, I realize that. What we want for this forum is to get rid of the trouble makers. Nothing I hate worst than punishing the masses for one persons errors. Deal with the person and punish me when I screw up.All;
Don't think I'm better than anyone here because of tenure. Difference is us old farts (hate that I may have become one) have seen the changes so our comments can be more factual based than hearsay or emotion. It's not bad to have those that are devils advocates on the forum. They help me look at things in a different light.

David Klemm
Illinos & St Louis Divisions
IC Version 1.0 uploaded

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Hi David,
You are one of the good guys, and I respect your opinions. I agree that much of what was in those posts had little harm, if maybe little valid information as well. There were some posts though, that likely reflected misrepresentations from folks aledged to be MicroSoft employees, that were likely bogus personel, and might create legal problems for the forum?? "Don't get legal advice from an engineer or scientist"
Bob

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Why was RI-whateverhisnumberswere goodbye message nuked? Best I can tell it was embarassment and/or the joy of being able to do so.I know that being a moderator is hard thing to do well, but managing the environment for good conversation is one thing, censorship running amok is another and in my opinion, the pendulum has swung way too far towards the later condition.Lighten up.Dave Nelson

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Sorry Pete, I disagree vehemently with you on this one. I saw no hostilities being created from the post, even if I didn't agree with it. Not every discussion or disagreement is necessarily hostile in nature. And the very nature of the wording of the rule you quoted in your post leads to this kind of thing perpetually happening. To suppose that something is going to happen based upon another happening is total garbage IMHO. And this is exactly what this is saying. No one is that good in prediction, not even Nostradamus himself.I agree with you David. It is getting totally out of hand, which is why I am spending much more time on other forums than on here.RangerWestern Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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Yes, I agree, there has been suddenly many locked posts and deleted post. Two days ago, the post was there, yesterday, it had disappeared...
Even, with the previous moderators, there were even less locked posts. Are these new moderators going the same way as a previous moderator who abused his power and posting in everyone's post saying the signature/banner was too big, etc...?
I wasn't here from the beginning, but from November 2001. So I'm not sure what happened earlier. If this forum opened before MSTS 1 was released, I think there would also be lots of speculations, wish lists, etc as well at that time. But now, MSTS 2, what's wrong with people asking M$ when the simulator is going to come out? Why is everyone so angry about users in MSTS 2 forum ask when MSTS 2 is going to come out? I think people would have done the same before MSTS 1 was released.
Maybe there is a "secret spy" from M$ watching the forums, how would you know? There was one but I did not know what happened to him and he was not a "spy" anyway. I think he was one of those who helped develop MSTS 1. if we post more wish lists, asking when it would be released, wouldn't this show we are despearate for information and convince M$ to tell us some information or something?

-----You are reading my signature now, don't waste your time reading it!-----
Or probably, maybe you should waste your time reading it.
Eh, where did my signature go?
Oh, here it is, the one you are reading right now? Can't you see it? I know I know, it's probably too bright to see it.
Hey, look at my avatar, nice right? I drew it with my own hands holding the mouse in Paint, with the pencil tool(and the Filling tool!)!
It's a picture of me in Planet Stooopid, where everything is the same as what you call "Earth" except that we are called "aliens" in your planet.
Anyway, I warned you not waste time reading my signature! You have just wasted probably about 30 seconds reading it, where you could have spent the time doing better things, like maybe reading the next post below if there is one...

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-04 AT 09:50 AM (EST)

>>If this forum opened before >>MSTS 1 was released, I think there >>would also be lots of >>speculations, wish lists, etc as well at >>that time. It was.
There was.
If you bothered to look, Nels posted some sshots from a preview copy, and at the time it was almost finished though it was delayed.>>But now, MSTS 2, what's wrong with people asking M$ when the >>simulator is going to come out? Why is everyone so angry about >>users in MSTS 2 forum ask when MSTS 2 is going to come out? I think >>people would have done the same before MSTS 1 was released. You can ask, but they will not answer. They are not allowed to give and answer and also they do not know what to answer even if they are allowed to answer.>>Maybe there is a "secret spy" from M$ watching the forums, how >>would you know? There was one but I did not know what happened to >>him and he was not a "spy" anyway. I think he was one of those who >>helped develop MSTS 1There are many who read the forum and dont post.There are no "secret spies"The person who are reffering to is probably Jim, who is a senior MS Windows engineer who gave us forum members some tips early on for working with MSTS and how MSTS interacts with Windows.>>. if we post more wish lists, asking when it would be released, >>wouldn't this show we are despearate for>information and convince >>M$ to tell us some information or something?Nope. They will not tell you.When they want anyones feedback they will ask.They are aware of what neeeds to be in the sim and what the community would like to see in it.Point is, the MSTS2 forum's only purpose is rumour and speculation.-----------------------------
Dominic Sharoo
NitroWare Webmaster/Technical editor
http://www.nitroware.netMod/Guru @ 3DSS Forums
http://www.3dss-forums.com

Not a Proud Supporter of the:
Train Simulator IRC Chat

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Very well put.. and very true..most people on this forum don't seem to understand that.

Sounder Commuter Rail
Everett to Tacoma
Coming Summer 2004

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Ah yes, Jim....what was his last name? Was it Stevens? I remember trading emails with him. He was like having an insider and gave us many of the early tips and tricks since he was looking inside the code. And then he just fell off the face of the earth. I hope it wasn't due to a death. May have angered the MS gods and he was forced to get off or fired or both.

David Klemm
Illinos & St Louis Divisions
IC Version 1.0 uploaded

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David, said only half tongue-in-cheek .. I think he must have been planted here by MS to shed some light on everything, knowing what they had let out the door prematurely. If it had not been for Jim and a few others very early on to kind of get everyone on their feet, I think MSTS would probably have had a very early death. Sounds like a good story anyway RobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-04 AT 03:00 PM (EST)

For what it’s worth…, Probably not even two cents…,I got to thinking the other day…, wouldn’t it be nice if the forum members had an “Ignore Button” like they do in the chat rooms.Then when you ran across someone that you found annoying, ignorant, stupid, bothersome, troublemaking, or just flat didn’t care for them or their opinion…., then…, up next to their screen-name, you could select the “Ignore Button” and never hear from them again…, never…, ever…!!

How wonderful would that be.Of course the only problem with this concept is…, in about a weeks time…,

there would be nothing here for you to look at!!!
Y'all have a sparkling day.
Bob

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I've read this message several times, and each time I read it, I get even more mad. I'm here to do a job. I do it as I see fit. I don't do it as everybody else wants me to. I'm following the rules. When someone breaks the rules, post gets locked or removed. Simple, huh? The rules say that posts can and will be deleted AT MY DISCRETION. It also says that the enforcement of the rules may change without notice. The flaming and bickering, etc. had gotten out of hand. SOMETHING had to be done to bring the forum back into shape. So excuse me if I was doing my job. I been about ready to tell several different people to take this job and shove it. But I won't. Regarding the MSTS 2 forum. Did we really need 16,000 posts about contacting microsoft demanding more information? NO! They were all redundant.. That's why some of those threads were deleted. The others were flame wars.. The forum had been lax in its adherence to the rules, and as a result we were having two or three flame wars a week. People gripe that there's not enough moderators around, yet when I try to do my job, they gripe that I'm doing too much! WHAT DO YOU WANT! a forum going down the drain that's nothing more than a warzone? or do we want a civil forum?

Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas

Paint Shop Department
Sounder Commuter Rail
Everett-Tacoma
Coming Fall/Winter 2004

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