Model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses

http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=d0c83c371e928fcb760122d1ec5278d1&postid=81576#post81576this may FINALLY thwart UP's stupid logo liscensing... BIG model manufacturers like Athearn and Lionel among others are banding together to oppose UP's logo liscensing fees and possibly sue for un-necessary fees that a corporate giant like UP doesn't need to make money. Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, kevarc, Dec-09-03, 03:48 PM, (1) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, NW 1218, Dec-09-03, 04:15 PM, (2) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, stationmaster, Dec-10-03, 10:22 PM, (13) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, NW_611, Dec-11-03, 10:51 AM, (16) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, stationmaster, Dec-11-03, 07:51 PM, (19) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, NW_611, Dec-11-03, 09:44 PM, (20) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, cn_bayview, Dec-09-03, 07:37 PM, (3) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, TexasWestern70Mac, Dec-09-03, 07:57 PM, (4) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, CGW409, Dec-09-03, 09:07 PM, (5) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, ssw, Dec-09-03, 10:52 PM, (6) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, heavyd, Dec-10-03, 01:21 AM, (7) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, heavymetal91, Dec-11-03, 00:23 AM, (14) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, CGW409, Dec-11-03, 06:32 PM, (18) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, Coonskin, Dec-12-03, 02:46 AM, (21) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, CGW409, Dec-12-03, 08:09 PM, (22) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, sawblade5, Dec-10-03, 11:49 AM, (9) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, chucksc, Dec-10-03, 12:04 PM, (10) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, sawblade5, Dec-10-03, 04:06 PM, (11) RE: model rr manufacturers opposing UP licenses, chucksc, Dec-10-03, 04:57 PM, (12) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, heffed, Dec-10-03, 10:45 AM, (8) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, Paul1953, Dec-11-03, 01:53 AM, (15) RE: model rr manufacterers opposing UP liscenses, Paul Jobber, Dec-11-03, 10:59 AM, (17)

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And they will probably loose their ass in court. The law is clear.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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I can see it now,(Watching CNN) In other news, model railroad manufactuers such as Athearn and Lionel lost their asses today in court opposing the Union Pacfic's liscensing system. More details at 11.Later John Means
KLW Sound and Activity Designer
LONG LIVE THE F40C!

Visit my website at www.freewebs.com/klwtrainsim

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Not clear at all. But first of all, my usual disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, I do not play one on TV. I have been doing quite a bit of research on the topic for the past few years.There are limits to Trademark protection (fair use, nomitive use, etc.) and there is the issue of whether the predecessor line logos are in the public domain.One big problem is UP and other railroads is for decades they not only did not object, but even encouraged placement of their logo on model railroad equipment. Can UP demonstrate that it has been harmed by 70 years of logo placement on model trains?Another question is how far can they go? Can they bar a photographer from selling a photo of a UP locomotive? How about a an artist's painting? Aren't models artistic renditions?Ron
http://www.railwaystation.com

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You may not be a lawyer, but you're the first to actually try and look at the issue like one. If the question is whether the Union Pacific RR can restrict the use of say the Western Pacific or the Central Pacific's logos, the answer is probably going to be "no". The older a railroad mark is, the harder it will be for UP to claim it for its own. If the UP can't prove the mark's in current use ("The court would like to see your Western Pacific locomotives...") then they're very vulnerable to the other side claiming the 'warehousing' of marks, and then the UP's case gets difficult. Nobody's set up to "loose" their rears in court. The attorney who laid out the example of the Cotton Belt is highly correct. It will be difficult for the UP to impose a registration scheme on what is by all accounts an extinct railroad. Conversely, the UPRR has a lot better chance of defending a licensing scheme for their current wings & shield, yellow & gray look. Thanks for the article, Bill!

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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I'm not sure when they started doing this, but UP does paint a couple of freight cars with "Heritage" logos every now and then just to maintain their claim. I do not know if that would be viewed as sufficient usage.It seems to me that most of the manufacturers can live with royalties on the current UP logos, but feel that requiring a license on the "Heritage" roads is unjustified. Especially since the predecessor roads did not object to model railroaders using their logos.UP's PR defense of just "Protecting their branding" seems rather weak in regards to fallen flags.One other argument I've heard in UP's defense is that they need to protect themselves from liability. For example, their license application includes questions about business insurance and whether the product contains chrome. However, I suspect that the license program itself may have escalated their risk significantly. I stongly doubt they have ever been sued in the past over injuries resulting from toy train with a UP logo. Now consider this scenario: a child swallows a z-scale locomotive. In the past, it would probably never even occur to a lawyer what paint scheme was on it, unless it was candy striped. But now, the plaintiff learns that the locomotive was officialy licensed from UP...

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Hrrm. Painting the freight cars probably isn't enough. Exxon or Mobil once upon a time was called 'Humble Oil' and they tried to hang on to that by using some Humble Oil letterhead stationery, but a court threw that out. It's 50-50 at best for the UP on that issue. Manufacturers living with the royalties on current livery/logos is probably what will happen, unless the UP can demonstrate that it's using say "Southern Pacific" since not all SP locomotives are repainted. I would say, however, good luck to them in trying to hang on to "Central Pacific" or "Western Pacific". I agree that it's unjustified. Further, the manufacturers probably don't want their profit margin to be cut into by having to pay (eventually all) a railroad a cut of their action. That liability argument could probably hold up with a favorable jury and an activist judge. "Because the UP licensed this product, they were aware of it. Because they were aware of it, UP knew or should have known that there was potentially a zone of danger here, that if a child swallowed this Z-scale locomotive, he could become choked, and if he became choked, could die. Therefore the UPRR is liable." I think it's tenuous legal reasoning, but I'm not so sure it wouldn't work. Peh. Luckily, almost all of my favorite railways are extinct.

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Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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Well, This could mean the end to UP models...Altho they probably are one of the top sellers. Hopefully no other RR will follow suit..

Rob
www.GreatNorthRails.com

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well no one is suing as of now. the post in the link says Athearn an Lionel is in negotions with UP over logo liscensing and who can use thier logos. it is odd though that either (and possibly more) are oppposing because Athearn and Lionel already have to pay royalty fees to UP for selling models with the UP name on it anyway. i really do not know what they are griping about, unless UP is asking for some other fee which seems is what the model rr manufacterers seem to be saying. personally being a freeware repainter, applying for a UP liscense would not be a big deal to me as i wouldn't have to pay royalty fees, but companies that make money off the UP name seem to be putting up a stink in recent months.....Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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Bill
FWIW I have heard talk(can't say for sure as I'm totaly digital now in my model RRing) that some of the newer locos coming out if they retail for $120 any of the roads that UP claims ownership of have an additional 10 bucks on the tag,sort of a UP tax.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Athearn has been adding $5 regardless if retail is $125 or $60

Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas
I Support MSTS IRC Chat. http://chat.dtimsts.vze.com
Member #3, Trainorders Refugee Association - http://evans.railfan.net/TORA.htm

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This is a good debate, but I think when all is said and done the railroads can charge what they want. It is too bad UP's attitude is like that but I agree with them. If I was a UP modeller I want that UP engine or car because I like the railroad. UP has built up their presence and image as a railroad and then someone else makes a profit from that, is that right? Model manufactures are using the likeness of the real thing. Most of the time I base my purchases on the roadname, not because it is an Athearn or whatever. The railroads should be compensated for that. Do I want that? NO!!! The hobby is getting more and more expensive all the time, but I think we have been all getting away with this for years and years and maybe our time is up. Just look at buying any licenced merchandise from pro-sports teams, NASCAR, that sort of thing, why should model trains be different? On that other hand it is hard to accept this licencing deal from UP, (hopefully the other railroads keep out of it), when in my opinion most real railroads don't care about the hobby anyway!!!

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if they retail for $120
Which reminds me why did the price of model locomotives go up? if I remember right 20 years ago you used to be able to buy a powered athearn locomotive in any roadname for about 25 bucks what changed?Joel

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Joel
What happened is a combination of things
1 LGB, a lot of the smaller scale companies realized if someone was going to plunk down 500 to 1000 large on a model locomotive then the market could bear a little more markup.
2 Companies like Atlas stopped constant production runs here in the US and instead contracted with offshore contractors,in Atlas's case at first Kato in Japan then later after Kato went independent,sources in China.
Since they contracted for a set amount of units Atlas hit on the idea that these locos were "limited edition" and therefore could command 60 bucks a pop as opposed to the 40 they'd charged for so long,each new "limited edition" loco there after from Atlas had about an extra 10 to 20 bucks added each time needless to say it didn't take but 3 or 4 years for Atlas locos to pass the century mark,to add insult to injury no dummy locos were avalible or if they were they were priced about 10 bucks cheaper than the powered locos(80 bucks for what was essentialy a glorified freight car)of course when other companies saw what the market would bear prices followed suit and when the Kato SD40's hit the market at 110 bucks a shot(as a CGW modeler the SD40 was a holy grail but I could not see parting with 330 bucks for a proper 3 unit consist)I pulled the plug on a hobby I'd loved since I was a kid since I could no longer afford it.
Finally 3 Athearn pretty much stayed the course keeping the prices down as Irv Athearn realized that in order for the hobby to remain viable it had to remain affordable to young people,unfortunatly Irv passed on about 8 years ago and the bean counters took control and Athearn prices soon shot up to par with the compition.
Judging from the seriously diminished booth size and offerings(and in some cases absence from) the Chicago Hobby Show a couple months ago and the hobby manufactuers associations starting the "It's a Great Hobby"(IIRC)campaign to get young people interested in the hobby,that maybe pricing customers out of the hobby wasn't the greatest idea after allGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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GaryS:My road to the V scale train hobby pretty much parallels yours. Having been a model railroader for most of my life, the past decade it has soared to the point that I just couldn't justify it any more. I still have a bunch of stuff left (HO, Sn3, and 3 Rail)... but used prices are pretty soft... don't know what I'll do with it. There's been no significant model train purchases on my part since my discovery of the MSTS hobby in August of 2002. I love the play value found in this segment of the train hobby. The payware vendors offer a tremendous value to us: Complete routes, engines, custom sounds, activities, et al... (untold hours of enjoyment)... for the price of ONE HO Kadee boxcar. Or, complete engine SETS for about the price of a cheaper HO boxcar!It is completely understandable to me why the model train market is experiencing a downturn. At the few model train forums I frequent now, it is not overly uncommon to see a post saying "I've had enough"... and the modeler is leaving the hobby or freezing their spending.
Andre Ming
THE Big Cheese and Great Poobah of V Scale Creations
Keeping CHRIST in my CHRISTmas!

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Andre
I pretty much sold off a lot of my common stuff but held on to some of the no longer avalible stuff such as the AHM/Riverossi steam that I could never replace at the price I paid.
My interest in model RRing was primarily armchair after that till MSTS,I've got no problem with payware because you are getting value for your money and with V scale that 60 miles from Forest Park to Elgin or Aurora on my CA&E is an actual 60 miles as opposed to six laps around the layoutGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-03 AT 11:52 AM (EST)

>well no one is suing as of now. the post in the link says
>Athearn an Lionel is in negotions with UP over logo
>liscensing and who can use thier logos. it is odd though
>that either (and possibly more) are oppposing because
>Athearn and Lionel already have to pay royalty fees to UP
>for selling models with the UP name on it anyway. i really
>do not know what they are griping about, unless UP is asking
>for some other fee which seems is what the model rr
>manufacterers seem to be saying. personally being a
>freeware repainter, applying for a UP liscense would not be
>a big deal to me as i wouldn't have to pay royalty fees, but
>companies that make money off the UP name seem to be putting
>up a stink in recent months..... I am still wondering if anyone here has gotton a Liscense for doing UP repaints for freeware without having to pay them Royalty fees? Anyway all I'm seeing is that UP is being sued for the use of Historic logos and fallen flag logos, not the current one.

Chris Knight
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yes!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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OK, Chuck I'll take your word for it. I'm preaty sure you've been in contact with UP about this.

Chris Knight
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We've had a license since the beginning of the program...
However we are restricted to freeware use only so that may have a bearing....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Hmmm... Yeah, I'd like to see that go to suit. If they're even entertaining that notion, they're idiots. I think UP could relax a bit, but the thought of someone trying to sue because they don't want to pay licensing fees for using a corporate logo is pretty funny.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-03 AT 01:53 AM (EST)

Best line in a movie from 2003:"Thank Goodness for model trains. Without them, where would they get the ideas for the big ones?
--"A Mighty Wind" Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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HiWe had a situation like that in the UK. A model of a HST train produced by Lima had to be withdrawn because they had failed to get a licence from GNER (a Sea Containers subsidiary).British train companies always license their logos to manufacturers. Some, such as South Western Trains allow Bachmann to use their logo on their OO scale trains, but not decal manufacturers! Virgin trains are better, and even have stands at model railway shows, because they realise unlike UP that it is better to get lots and lots of free publicity than be restrictive with company details. They even collaborated with model manufacturers in developing new models of their new fleets of trains. (Oddly, Virgin trains are 49% owned by Stagecoach, the parent company of South West Trains).I think UP could do with learning from Richard Branson on this one!Paul Jobber (BVE fan!) London, England.

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