OT: Pres. Bush

In case you haven't heard, President Bush snuck out of his Crawford Ranch and into the literal back door of Air Force One last night, and flew to Baghdad, Iraq and surprised 600 troops by having thanksgiving dinner with them, and helped serve the side dishes. No one can say he doesn't care about the troops now.I support my President and my troops.Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas
I Support MSTS IRC Chat. http://chat.dtimsts.vze.com
Member #3, Trainorders Refugee Association - http://evans.railfan.net/TORA.htm

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RE: OT: Pres. Bush, NW 1218, Nov-27-03, 04:31 PM, (1) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, TrainFreak, Nov-27-03, 05:10 PM, (2) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Chessie SD50 8563, Nov-27-03, 05:24 PM, (3) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, erniep, Nov-27-03, 07:06 PM, (4) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-28-03, 11:23 AM, (15) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, JonN, Nov-29-03, 08:46 PM, (39) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, mdeming, Nov-27-03, 08:18 PM, (5) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Baldwinbob, Nov-27-03, 10:08 PM, (6) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, BNSF4723, Nov-27-03, 10:17 PM, (7) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, P42number1, Nov-27-03, 10:56 PM, (8) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, dgauci, Nov-28-03, 01:32 AM, (9) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Boweavel, Nov-28-03, 02:58 AM, (10) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Poltergeist, Nov-28-03, 01:30 PM, (19) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Cell0518, Nov-28-03, 08:43 AM, (11) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CRSD40, Nov-28-03, 09:15 AM, (12) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, jvizoso, Nov-28-03, 09:15 AM, (13) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Nov-28-03, 10:52 AM, (14) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-28-03, 11:31 AM, (16) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, kevarc, Nov-29-03, 09:13 PM, (41) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Nov-29-03, 11:17 PM, (45) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, kevarc, Nov-29-03, 11:30 PM, (47) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Nov-29-03, 11:35 PM, (49) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, dgauci, Nov-28-03, 12:35 PM, (17) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, duncharris, Nov-28-03, 12:55 PM, (18) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-28-03, 08:34 PM, (21) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-29-03, 00:18 AM, (22) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Nov-29-03, 12:05 PM, (23) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-29-03, 12:49 PM, (24) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Nov-29-03, 01:47 PM, (25) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, JonN, Nov-29-03, 08:28 PM, (37) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, rgarber, Nov-29-03, 01:49 PM, (26) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-29-03, 06:48 PM, (32) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-29-03, 08:20 PM, (35) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-29-03, 08:50 PM, (40) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, jhilden, Nov-29-03, 09:30 PM, (42) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, dgauci, Nov-30-03, 11:07 AM, (52) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-30-03, 12:54 PM, (53) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, rpicardi1, Dec-01-03, 08:36 AM, (76) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-30-03, 06:00 PM, (62) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, rgarber, Nov-29-03, 08:20 PM, (36) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-29-03, 08:29 PM, (38) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-30-03, 06:06 PM, (63) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, rgarber, Nov-30-03, 06:55 PM, (66) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-30-03, 07:28 PM, (67) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CPR_Malice_96th, Nov-30-03, 10:01 PM, (70) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Nov-29-03, 09:59 PM, (43) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-30-03, 06:20 PM, (64) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Dec-01-03, 06:30 PM, (95) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Dec-01-03, 08:34 PM, (97) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Nov-29-03, 11:25 PM, (46) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, ssw, Nov-29-03, 02:08 PM, (27) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Nov-29-03, 03:42 PM, (28) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Poltergeist, Nov-29-03, 04:16 PM, (29) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Baldwinbob, Nov-29-03, 10:07 PM, (44) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Nov-30-03, 10:28 AM, (50) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Baldwinbob, Nov-30-03, 10:56 AM, (51) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Baldwinbob, Nov-28-03, 01:34 PM, (20) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, aristech, Nov-29-03, 05:41 PM, (30) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Boilerbuster, Nov-29-03, 06:12 PM, (31) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, ssw, Nov-29-03, 07:39 PM, (33) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-29-03, 08:10 PM, (34) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Nov-29-03, 11:33 PM, (48) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DJShepley, Nov-30-03, 03:22 PM, (54) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Nov-30-03, 03:35 PM, (55) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DJShepley, Nov-30-03, 03:57 PM, (56) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Baldwinbob, Nov-30-03, 04:51 PM, (57) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, dgauci, Nov-30-03, 05:12 PM, (58) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Baldwinbob, Nov-30-03, 05:42 PM, (60) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Nov-30-03, 06:27 PM, (65) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DJShepley, Nov-30-03, 07:35 PM, (68) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Poltergeist, Nov-30-03, 05:25 PM, (59) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CARex, Nov-30-03, 05:59 PM, (61) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, TimCourt, Nov-30-03, 08:43 PM, (69) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, joha107, Dec-01-03, 02:58 PM, (90) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, jlucero4, Dec-01-03, 07:21 PM, (96) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, joha107, Dec-02-03, 01:22 PM, (111) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 03:26 PM, (115) 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, Robber Baron, Nov-30-03, 11:31 PM, (71) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-01-03, 01:05 AM, (72) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, JonN, Dec-01-03, 02:49 AM, (73) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, mdeming, Dec-01-03, 09:41 AM, (77) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, JonN, Dec-01-03, 10:23 AM, (78) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-01-03, 10:51 AM, (80) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, DJShepley, Dec-01-03, 05:42 AM, (74) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-01-03, 08:18 AM, (75) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, DJShepley, Dec-01-03, 10:37 AM, (79) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, kevarc, Dec-01-03, 11:00 AM, (82) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-01-03, 11:37 AM, (85) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, kevarc, Dec-01-03, 02:49 PM, (89) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-01-03, 11:24 AM, (83) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, kevarc, Dec-01-03, 11:34 AM, (84) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, Poltergeist, Dec-01-03, 02:19 PM, (87) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, TrainFreak, Dec-01-03, 05:50 PM, (92) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, JonN, Dec-01-03, 10:54 AM, (81) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, thomil, Dec-01-03, 01:59 PM, (86) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-01-03, 02:29 PM, (88) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, kevarc, Dec-01-03, 03:12 PM, (91) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, TomBoyRacer, Dec-01-03, 06:04 PM, (93) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, chucksc, Dec-01-03, 10:03 PM, (99) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, DTA, Dec-01-03, 06:26 PM, (94) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 09:22 AM, (104) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, kevarc, Dec-02-03, 09:49 AM, (105) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, JonN, Dec-02-03, 07:13 PM, (120) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 07:54 PM, (125) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, JonN, Dec-02-03, 08:42 PM, (128) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 09:21 PM, (130) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, JonN, Dec-02-03, 10:33 PM, (131) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 08:11 AM, (103) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, DTA, Dec-02-03, 06:32 PM, (117) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 07:47 PM, (123) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, DTA, Dec-03-03, 05:16 PM, (135) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, JonN, Dec-02-03, 07:33 PM, (122) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, chucksc, Dec-01-03, 10:22 PM, (100) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, oldrailfan, Dec-01-03, 10:45 PM, (102) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, chucksc, Dec-02-03, 12:55 PM, (109) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, oldrailfan, Dec-02-03, 02:11 PM, (114) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, chucksc, Dec-02-03, 05:18 PM, (116) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, CGW409, Dec-02-03, 06:49 PM, (119) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, oldrailfan, Dec-02-03, 08:09 PM, (127) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 09:14 PM, (129) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, oldrailfan, Dec-03-03, 07:40 AM, (132) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, rgarber, Dec-03-03, 09:27 AM, (133) RE: 6 AM turkey Dinner?!?, oldrailfan, Dec-03-03, 10:05 AM, (134) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Dec-01-03, 09:45 PM, (98) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Dec-01-03, 10:30 PM, (101) Is this a publicity stunt?, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 10:23 AM, (106) RE: Is this a publicity stunt?, chucksc, Dec-02-03, 01:00 PM, (110) RE: Is this a publicity stunt?, joha107, Dec-02-03, 01:36 PM, (112) RE: Is this a publicity stunt?, oldrailfan, Dec-02-03, 02:05 PM, (113) RE: Is this a publicity stunt?, CGW409, Dec-02-03, 06:40 PM, (118) K Rations, DJShepley, Dec-02-03, 07:31 PM, (121) RE: K Rations, CRSD40, Dec-02-03, 07:49 PM, (124) RE: K Rations, oldrailfan, Dec-02-03, 08:02 PM, (126) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DJShepley, Dec-02-03, 10:24 AM, (107) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, rgarber, Dec-02-03, 10:51 AM, (108) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Dec-05-03, 07:46 PM, (136) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Dec-05-03, 08:59 PM, (137) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Dec-05-03, 09:14 PM, (138) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Baldwinbob, Dec-05-03, 11:06 PM, (139) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Dec-06-03, 02:53 PM, (140) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Dec-06-03, 05:03 PM, (141) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Dec-06-03, 05:48 PM, (143) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, erniep, Dec-06-03, 10:35 PM, (148) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Poltergeist, Dec-06-03, 10:39 PM, (149) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Dec-06-03, 11:35 PM, (152) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Poltergeist, Dec-07-03, 00:16 AM, (154) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Dec-07-03, 05:19 AM, (156) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, JonN, Dec-07-03, 02:17 AM, (155) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CRSD40, Dec-07-03, 08:58 AM, (158) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DJShepley, Dec-07-03, 12:50 PM, (162) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Dec-07-03, 11:32 AM, (159) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, JonN, Dec-07-03, 12:16 PM, (160) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, joha107, Dec-07-03, 12:33 PM, (161) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Dec-06-03, 11:31 PM, (151) Roosevelt or Reagan?, Baldwinbob, Dec-06-03, 11:56 PM, (153) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, amadjuster, Dec-07-03, 03:50 PM, (163) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, CGW409, Dec-06-03, 07:16 PM, (145) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, DTA, Dec-06-03, 08:09 PM, (146) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, Poltergeist, Dec-06-03, 09:53 PM, (147) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, dgauci, Dec-06-03, 05:10 PM, (142) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, philmoberg, Dec-06-03, 05:49 PM, (144) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, chucksc, Dec-06-03, 11:28 PM, (150) RE: OT: Pres. Bush, oldrailfan, Dec-07-03, 05:24 AM, (157)

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Yes, I did hear. You me and Bush support our troops! God Bless America and Happy Thanksgiving.Later John Means
KLW Sound and Activity Designer
LONG LIVE THE F40C!

Visit my website at www.freewebs.com/klwtrainsim

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And this is the guy who according to the Politically Correct media doesn't have enough IQ to tie his shoelaces...
Gotta be impressed by this guy

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I might not like him, but damn, this is a class act by him, I appluad him for this.

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Fitting for the turkey to show up. Started his re-election performances a bit early.
cheers,
Ernie

It's good to be a snake in the grass...

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>Fitting for the turkey to show up. Started his re-election
>performances a bit early.
> cheers,
> Ernie And this from a guy who has someone named "Cretin" for a Prime Minister?Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 08:54 PM (EST)

>And this from a guy who has someone named "Cretin" for a
>Prime Minister?Nitpick: it's actually Chretien, but that really doesn't matter to me, for I hate that man's living guts (sorry, I just had to say that). At the beginning of his term, Canada was rated "best country in the world to live in" by the UN's Human Development Index. Now we are down to 8 (US is now 7). Oh well, at least we are still better off than Western Europe, all of whom (except Belgium and the Netherlands, who are 5 and 6 respectivly) are in the teens or below.Okay, enough ranting, on to the fun. Here are some memorable Chretien quotes
Enjoy...Oh, almost forgot that does not include one of his more recent ones:
"I will have my fine in one hand and my joint in the other"...
I think that quote is self explanitory, unlike most of what he says.
Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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I learned as a yankee who lived down south for a number of years, that when a southerner starts with the dumb hillbilly act, its time to watch out cause he is gonna pull a fast one on you. Ole Dubba is not a dummy.

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---------
...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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"I do know I'm ready for the job. And, if not, that's just the way it goes."
- George W. Bush, August 21, 2000-cough-~The only way to ship~

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"They Misunderestimated me!"
-Dubya, Sometime.As already said before, I may not like him, but this was an outstanding gesture.

Matt Repino
Philadelphia, PA

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Yes, he is my President also. Someone we Americans can again be proud of, instead of 8 years of weakness, embarrassments, and scandals.

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I take it none of you people have ever heard the words 'Publicity stunt' Catchya

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-03 AT 01:33 PM (EST)

>I take it none of you people have ever heard the words
>'Publicity stunt'
>
>Catchya
I was waiting for someone to say that. and I have five bucks that says this is going to re-surface during the 2004 election. But I got to agree, even though I think that he is running this country poorly, That was a good move. I appalud him on this.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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>Yes, he is my President also. Someone we Americans can
>again be proud of, instead of 8 years of weakness,
>embarrassments, and scandals. Happily agreed.

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Yep, must agree on that too. But you're gonna get people whom, no matter what good things a president does, are ignorant to all of it and will always turn it around to make it look like something less than it is.

-----------------------------

Kyle Norek, Milepost 76 on the NS Buffalo Line
MSN Messenger: crsd40@hotmail.com

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Sorry! I remember seeing Margaret Thatcher driving a tank !! Now that WAS a publicity stunt!
This was more interesting .. All credit to the guy .. he was moved to tears ... jv

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Just goes to show the serious class act that is the CIC,God bless Dubbya.
To those claiming reelection/publicity stunt, at least W respects the men and women serving this country under his command unlike the Hildebeast whom when she and Bubba were in the White House had members of the military carrying trays of drinks etc at state functions and generaly expressed her disgust,hatred and loathing for anyone in the military is currently in Afganistan(much more controled and safer,might actually be in serious danger in Iraq)with of course full pre trip publicity to show all the folks back home that she really cares for our service people(got to let the idio...er I mean voters back home see that she's really pro military if she ever hopes to have a chance in 08,or heaven forfend 04)Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-03 AT 11:34 AM (EST)

Here IMHO is the difference between Dubya and Billary....
Leadership as opposed to management....Kinda makes the 7 dwarfs running from the "other side of the isle" look like just that, The 7 dwarves"....If I was a Democrat I would fire our media advisors in dispair....
I guess we'll have Dr. "Arrogant" Dean "attending" to some one who chokes on his rubber chicken at the next fund raiser to offset Bush! LOL! Talk about publicity stunts...
Hey IMO John Kerry knows or knew the difference between management and leadership at least once in his life.... If I was him I'd have fired my campaign advisors long ago for not being able to use this or at least effectively communicate it....
Now all he's got is his wife's money!Watching Politics is more fun than watching professional sports this year....
At least here in Washington, where this season we have NO professional grade sports Teams (Thanks Dan Snyder owner of the NFL Dead-skins ) and Ted L (Owner of the NBA Lizards).... I went into mourning when the Red Sox got beat by the Yanquis.... At least THEY didn't win the World Series... LOL! (BTW, Growing up in that area in the late40s/50s I was a Dodgers fan when they were the "real Dodgers" and before they Immigrated to LaLa land and started serving sushi and perrier instead of Hot Dogs and Beer!)
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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In Louisiana, he does not have to be in the house, if he is on your property and he is a treat, you can blow his a$$ away. End of story. Also if you have a carry permit, they are not that hard to get, 40 hour cless, State Police background check, if you are being carjacked, you can use deadly force. Not long after that passed and people got permitted, a 75 yr old Lady in New Orleans blew away a wouold be carjacker.RE: Duncan, he and a few of his socialist comrades over at UKTrainsim have been spouting this drivel for a long time. I give his drivel the grain of salt it deserves.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Kev,
Did you get a little off-topic on this Off-topic? Or did I miss something?

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.
Yahoo IM Name: mercer127 - MSN Messenger: oldrailfan1

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Posted it to the wrong post, it happens.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Yeah, found it later - sorry!

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.
Yahoo IM Name: mercer127 - MSN Messenger: oldrailfan1

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>To those claiming reelection/publicity stunt, at least W
>respects the men and women serving this country under his
>command unlike the Hildebeast whom when she and Bubba were
>in the White House had members of the military carrying
>trays of drinks etc at state functions and generaly
>expressed her disgust,hatred and loathing for anyone in the
>militaryI also remember it was reported that during their time the military staff were under White House orders to wear business attire and not their proper uniforms while in the White House. The Hildebeast didn't like the military appearance around her.

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Of course he cares about the military, that's why he sent several of them to their deaths in a futile and pointless and illegal colonial expedition.1886 - 1967'They' by S. Sassoon

The Bishop tells us: `When the boys come back
They will not be the same; for they'll have fought
In a just cause: they lead the last attack
On Anti-Christ; their comrades' blood has bought
New right to breed an honourable race,
'They have challenged Death and dared him face to face.'

`We're none of us the same!' the boys reply.
`For George lost both his legs; and Bill's stone blind;
Poor Jim's shot through the lungs and like to die;
And Bert's gone syphilitic: you'll not find
A chap who's served that hasn't found some change.'
And the Bishop said: `The ways of God are strange!'

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At Last! An intelligent post. No that the blind people here will understand.Siegfried's poems are the most potent anti war writings I have ever come across. Mankind will never learn.David

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>At Last! An intelligent post. No that the blind people here
>will understand.
>
>Siegfried's poems are the most potent anti war writings I
>have ever come across.
>
>Mankind will never learn.
>
>David
Oh beautiful! Lets all stand around and sing Kumbaya my friend or how about We are the World!What the pacifists don't ever understand is that the world is full of people/nation-states/ideologies that do not subscribe to their world view and unfortunately will not "beat their swords into plowshares" if we do it 1st. They will just come after us anyway...
I prefer to fight in their back yard not mine!And Siegfried is correct in his views on war. No one who has ever seen its results can think otherwise, unless you are a sociopath!
Most of us who have will be forever haunted by the memories!
The problem remains that in life one must occasionally do things that one doesn't want to. Sacrifice yourself so your children/grandchildren don't have to! Its called Patriotism with a dash of Altruism. And if we/our generation(s) fail to confront and defeat terrorism then our children will pay the price! I know those of you who think America is the great evil in the world and the font of all things bad won't agree but hey who gives a rip what you think! It's our kids I'm thinking of, not yours!Have a nice life cowering under your bed!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Gentlemen
While I know that there are some that will continue to belive that vilonce and war are never the answer,the real world tends to sometimes offer real examples where violence or the threat thereof is the only option.
This Thursday about noon I was on the computer doing some work on my route as we didn't have to leave for Thanksgiving dinner with the family for at least another hour, when I heard my wife yelling, I stepped out from the computer room thinking "what have the cats done now?" only to find my wife slamming her body against our front door and someone trying to force their way in,I added my wheight to the door and told her to throw the deadbolt and then call 911,I yelled through the door that the police were being called(also to let him know there was a man on site as well) when this scumbag continued to try to bust the door in I went to the bedroom closet grabbed my pistol and the magazine and then informed the would be intruder that I was armed and would defend myself(the actual phraseology was "step through that door mutha ****** and I'll blow your ******* head off)now at this point most rational people would think maybe he does have the means to back up his threat and leave,this scumbag continued to throw his body against the door,I released the deadbolt and quickly stood back with the pistol at the ready when he threw the door open and found himself staring down the business end of a 45 ACP he decided he'd best be elsewhere.
As it turned out he was stoned out his gourd on something and figured we had some things he might steal for more drugs(ran into 4 squads of the law at the end of the street)and yes had he continued on into the house I would have killed the SOB law enforcement was not there and I was the only thing standing between him and my wife.
The moral of this story? you can sometimes talk and talk and get nowhere sometimes you just have to show the SOB that you have the means and the will to kill them without even a seconds thoughtGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 12:51 PM (EST)

Hey Gary,When you shoot the SOB make sure he falls INTO your house not outside or some PC ambulance chaser will sue you and you'll find out he is supporting 25 kids! (or just drag his body in if he falls outside)P.S. it also helps to have your wife be hysterical when the Cops arrive!BTW, nothing like looking down the barrel of a 45 caliber "hand-howitzer" to give them religion!Glad you guys were not harmed....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Chuck
Thanks
Pretty much when I went looking for a home defense weapon I wanted something that with one round my target is going down and staying down,the 45 was recomended by a bud of mine(retired SEAL)who advised me that with the 45 no "double tapping"was required and it did take quite a bit of time at the range to learn to compensate for the recoil,darndest thing is the wife was quicker on the uptake(and with a bit of brusing to the male ego,a better shot)
Got to imagine he thought he was looking down the mouth of the Holland tunnel when that door opened.
We're both AOK but after he beat feet,I had to flip the safety and hand the weapon to her to finish safeing the weapon as I was shaking like a leaf from the come down from the adreneline boost,just glad the training kicked inGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 08:28 PM (EST)

>BTW, nothing like looking down the barrel of a 45 caliber
>"hand-howitzer" to give them religion!Yes, the .45 ACP does have much better stopping power than most of the 9mm "pea shooters" available today (ironically, you are more likely to die in the long run if hit by a 9mm round, but a .45 ACP round is far more likely to incapcitate with one hit). So I would probably agree that a .45 ACP is one of the best choices for home defence, provided you can handle it.
But my definition of "hand howitzer" is any handgun with "Magnum" in it's name, especially the ones chambered for .44 and .50AE cartridges.
(Remember Dirty Harry?) In fairness to 9mm pistols though, they are not as bad as James Bond's weapon of choice, the 7.65mm PPK, a weapon that is possibly useless against even Level I body armor... Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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*in response to Gary's post* Now there's a post that brings the real world back into our virtual posting area if there ever was. Obviously Gary is a long time poster here and it is a tragedy to find out that something like this could have happened to one of our own. Even more tragic is the appeasers who flaunt their philsophy here, find it even more tragic the circumstances of the poor bloke who may have even awoke to some civil sense of consciousness to realize he was trying to bash down a door that never took vengenace against him or realize he was trying to do bodily harm to a family he couldn't even recite their names. It's really some world we have gotten ourselves into when we find more noble character in those that would do us harm than those who innocently mind their own business. *in reponse to those that characterize Bush's trip as a publicity stunt* And the way some have characterized a good-will mission by a president to visit his own troops to only be seen as a stunt only shows that one side of the community here continually finds itself unable to find good in anything which opposes their own type of thinking. So Bush's secret flight out to Iraq becomes a publicity stunt even though publicity is exactly what they sought to avoid. And if they hadn't said anything about the stealthy trip, we already know this same part of our community would say he doesn't care. Talk about a no-win situation. Actually, that kind of talk is unabated cynicism. We've seen that same kind of cynicism expressed here in the forums and how many times do we lament the loss of friends and developers? The moral of the story is simply this. If you continue to find an evil reason for anything and everything that doesn't suit your mental prowess, be prepared to enjoy your hobby all alone as inevitably you will find that others think of you as distasteful and have little to do with you. It's a simple axiom of life that people are excited by the positive things and not the negative.Rich Garber

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A very Christian reply Rich. Except for the dreadful grammar and spelling typos.Perhaps you should look at:http://www.gun-control-network.org/122a.htm"Thou shalt not kill". Or perhaps you don't believe that bit.David

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 08:25 PM (EST)

David,A part of me wants to say that it's too bad it wasn't you instead of Gary that had to deal with the bozo....
Sort of a load test of your pacifist convictions if you will.
However, I really don't go that way!
I wish you no ill and would be horrified if that happened to you.
And it's ok with me if you want to be a pacifist. But you should really think it through and not condemn the people who enable you to be a pacifist. Where do you think we would be if the rest of us thought like you? Do you think the Criminals, bullies and tyrants of the world are going to lay down their arms just because you do? How would you feel if something happened to your wife and kids because you refused to take the necessary steps to defend them because of your convictions?
Do you really think you would be allowed to spout the pacifist drivel you do if there were not people willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of their country(and you)? People you routinely castigate on these forums.Don't answer on here! Just think about it! and answer yourself!BTW, your attack on Rich because of his public religious beliefs and your attempt to twist theology in doing so are in extremely poor taste.
Most Judeo-Christian clergy while recognizing the admonition against killing also recognize a right to defend yourself and your country and leave the definition of defense up to you and God.
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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For a start, I haven't posted any pacifist drivel, because I am not a pacifist. I commented on Siegfried Sassoons poetry, because I know he wrote a lot of it while serving in the Great War (sic), and I admire his work.Do you think that the Muslems that blow themselves up in the US and elsewhere, do not believe they are they are doing it for their country or religion? Fundamentalism is a curse to mankind. It is narrow, bigoted and is closed to beliefs of any other kind. Sadly, it applies to Christian sects as well as others.If you gathered any number of religious leaders of the world round a table, they would all say they are the one true faith, and all the other thousands were wrong. Do you want to pick those odds on heaven or hell? Religious belief kills people, it always has done. I do not have a religion, because I don't need it. If I come across people who need help, I will do it. If I need to criticise people I will do that as well. I am far from perfect, but nobody else is either.David

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Actually religion dose not kill anyone, it is radicalism and the corrupt teachings some use to influence others. I myself view religion as a guide not law. The way I see life and religion is not who you pray to, but how you treat your fellow man. Also, the shall not kill has been misconstrued in it’s translation. In Hebrew, the direct translation states that one shall not “Murder”, as killing is justified under certain circumstances; re – defending yourself. The translation is not of question, only some of the circumstances are in question and have been debated for years – like capital punishment and other “Just” causes.
J. Hildenbrand------NALW------

---Juice for You---

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>Do you think that the Muslims that blow themselves up in the
>US and elsewhere, do not believe they are they are doing it
>for their country or religion? Fundamentalism is a curse to
>mankind.That is so easily proved wrong. The Muslim and Palestinian terrorist's who are following Osama and his ilk are in direct violation of their own Koran, so much for their supposed religious fundamentalism.Merriam-Webster
Fundamentalism - a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching
b : the beliefs of this movement
c : adherence to such beliefsWhat they are doing is corrupting a religion to justify and achieve a political goal. Religion isn't the problem, leaders corrupted by power are the problem.

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>>What they are doing is corrupting a religion to justify and
>achieve a political goal. Religion isn't the problem,
>leaders corrupted by power are the problem.
Thank You Dennis!
That is one of the points I've been trying to make to the "We are the World" crowd all along.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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I've been following this thread, which started from the morale booster, to the anti war movement and Bush hater.To sum up the terrorist problem, the following is part of a letter sent to our liberal Senators; "Terrorist are NOT nice people - period. Try to understand them and they will still think of you as unworthy infidels. Extend a hand in friendship to them and they will hack it off.
Their goals are more extreme then the North Korean leaders. They play by no rules save one. They want total world domination under their iron rule for only their kind. The rest of us they want exterminated, as quickly and brutally as possible.
This is why they MUST be exterminated in their homeland. We cannot afford to wait for them to launch another attack over here again."You might acheve peace with those people is to surrender your money, surrender your property, surrender your freedom, and surrender your beliefs to them. But, no doubt, the only true peace to acheve with a terrorist is when you are dead.Like it or not, this is World War III. Not what you would think of as a conventional war, but, a world war using terrorist tactics as the weapon. Just look at the targets of their actions of late.SRV Ron

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Read my message again. I agree that what they are doing is wrong. But they DO believe they are doing it for the good of the Country/religion. Nobody blows themselves up, unless they are certain they are right in doing so. You have to ask yourself, who is teaching/brainwashing these people? How many wars would there be, if the leaders who instigated them, had to march in the vanguard? A lot less than there are at the moment! LOL!David

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David,As always you are the best when it comes to comedy. I really do enjoy your fun-filled deadpan humor. Please keep the jokes coming and never change. Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 08:29 PM (EST)

>David,
>
>As always you are the best when it comes to comedy. I really
>do enjoy your fun-filled deadpan humor. Please keep the
>jokes coming and never change.
>
>Rich Garber RichI like your answer to David better than mine!
Definitely shows more class!
While mine is a reflection of my personal disgust with sarcastic ingrates like him.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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At least you get the joke Rich! I just love long strings of earnest debate. Especially on a train forum!BTW, you should finish bodiddly and sell the final version. I will buy it!David

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With all the work that needs to be put into the last section on Ohio Rail I probably would want to sell it if I ever comleted it. But that's not an option, selling it that is. It really cannot be sold unless I remove all the 3rd party and default objects and place my new ones. No, I don't want to use the default ones even if I'm allowed. But anyway, Ohio Rail is a good route for folks to put into their route porfolio even though it's one of the oldest routes out there. I still get numerous emails about it and about how much folks like it. I do offer a small route, which I sell, called Canton. Canton focuses on switching. It's a small enough route with short mainline running that most activities can be completed in 45 minutes. Here's a link: www.edmfamily.com/msts/co.htm That's plenty small enough route that you can enjoy switching and still have time for the "love of long strings of earnest debate." (italics mine)Rich Garber

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LOL! I have done your simple switching activities in the past, on both EMRR and Bodiddley, and simple does not come into it! More like Gordian knot comes to mind, without a knife!Yiu should still consider a final commercial version of Ohio. It is still one of my favourite routes.David

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>Yiu should still consider a final commercial version of
>Ohio. It is still one of my favourite routes.
>
>David
>Yiu ?>Yiu ???David ....... ??OMG, you too make spelling errors ??Tim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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David
This is not meant as a flame and should not be taken as such but what would you have had me do?
Unlike the image most anti gun folk have of legitimate firearm owners,we are not blood thirsty cowboys that's why my first action was to bolt the door,my second, to have the wife call the police and then to warn the wouldbe intruder that the police were on the way,it was only after the individual made several more attempts to force the door that I resorted to bringing out the pistol and informing the intruder that I had means to defend my home and by allowing the door to open to show said intruder that I was fully prepared to do just that.
The last thing I would have wanted would be to take a life and thank God the individual had the presence of mind to see that he was way outclassed in the armament department and fled but had he proceeded further and left me as the only thing standing between him and my wife would I have fired? yes I would.
Had I been the caviler cowboy that antigun folk think I am that gun would have been the very first option and I'd have unloaded the magazine into him through the door,I do not take life that lightly but neither do I value the life of someone who would attempt to enter an occupied home with intent to do God knows what over that of my wife's or my own.David, I pray that you are never,never,ever in the shoes that I found myself in Thursday,it is not a situation to revell in but please don't infer that by taking steps to preserve the life of my wife and myself that I am doing something wrong.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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I did not say you were wrong. I have made no specific reference to your post at all. You had a gun. I have an extremely large knife, which I would use if required. As I mentioned before, I am not a pacifist as such. As a UK citizen, I am not allowed to have a gun, but kitchen utensils are legal!Presenting both sides of the argument, gives people the chance to balance equations, and decide what is right or wrong.David

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David
My apologies then,I misconstrued the "Thou shall not kill" line in your previous post.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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No apology required. I used the biblical "shalt not kill" for Rich's benefit. I have no beliefs as far as religion goes, but I do study religions as a hobby, along with all intolerances, whether religious or political. I abhor all narrow minded intolerance, in any format from MSTS to anything else you could care to name. Your actions and reactions to your experience are yours alone. I would not condone you or condemn you for anything you did as a reaction. I have no idea what I would have done.We all live by what we think is right. But those thoughts might be put to the test one day, and who knows what may happen then. Personally, I would rip out the entrails of anyone who threatened my family, despite my principles, but that is why we are human and not saints.David

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I guess you don't head Hebrew, or you'd know it says "Thou shalt not commit murder." King James' boys weren't very good translators, AND they had a political ax to grind. (Sound familiar?)

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.
Yahoo IM Name: mercer127 - MSN Messenger: oldrailfan1

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I wouldn't have given him that many chances.. I probably would have shot when he opened the door.. Glad you were all okay. That had to get your adrenaline pumping.

Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas
I Support MSTS IRC Chat. http://chat.dtimsts.vze.com
Member #3, Trainorders Refugee Association - http://evans.railfan.net/TORA.htm

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Rich and Bradley
Guys thanks for your concern,still get the occasional shiver(probably will for a day or two) had he taken a few more steps in it would have been a different story(if one is stoned enough to take on an armed homeowner that can be a very dangerous person) but as it stands no one had to die,the individual is sitting in the cooler and word is out that this particular house is real dangerous for their ilk.
Didn't want to get on with a "OT Hey Guys Nearly got Home Invaded" post but after reading some of the peace at any price posts I felt that I had to inject a little of the real world into their field of vision.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Glad you and your family is ok CGW409. Look, I don't have a problem with Bush visiting our troops, heck maybe he does care about our troops. However, I think its time we realized something, The Middle East will always be a troubled region, when its not Iraq, its Pakastain. If its not Pakastain, its the Gaza Strip and Iseral. We are trying to cure a disease that cannot be cured, no matter how hard we try. My 2 cent.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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First off, thank your lucky stars everything worked out all right, your family is safe. I have been thinking about your post all day, it could happen to anyone. Very disturbing to say the least.Secondly, I think you screwed up, big time. Once you had the door locked why in hell would you open it, the cops were on the way? Lets do some what ifs here:What if the intruder also had a gun?
What if there were more than one with a gun?
What if your gun misfired?
What if you missed and he/she didn't?It sure as hell could have turned out a lot worse.Again, glad you and yours are OK, with something to think about.Bob & O'Riley

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...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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Bob
I'd like to once again thank you all for your concern.
In the situation I was in, after the door was locked I did check the peephole (to make sure it wasn't someone I knew playing a bad joke)and was fairly sure of the number I was dealing with.
Second with the way he was trying to force the door the deadbolt could have gone at any time(I've had to renail some of the moulding as it had started to pop) I took the risk on popping the bolt with the thought that If he was coming in,I'd rather it be at a time of my choice ready to assess the threat than to let him bust the door in, not knowing exactly when that might be.
Fortunately he had nothing in his hands,had there been anything remotely pistol or knife like the situation would have been resolved differently.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Well....I think I would have been blowing feathers out my arse. Bob

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...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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Well....I don't trust or believe a one of them anymore, all they are worried about is getting reelected.Democrats, Republicans, Chinese, Canucks or Klingons, it doesn't matter, they are all the same. Maybe 10% really care where this country is going, like John McCain..... “THE U.S. budget is out of control,” the Wall Street investment firm Goldman Sachs & Co. warned Friday in its weekly newsletter to clients.
In the final days of the congressional session, GOP leaders added billions of dollars to energy and Medicare bills to help persuade key factions to support the legislation. Overall, the energy bill would cost $33 billion and the Medicare bill $400 billion.....This country is gonna be so far in the hole we'll never get out of it if something isn't done and quick.On a lighter note, only 1,869 days till Bill is first lady!
Just my 28 cents worth, that's all I have left.Bob & O'Riley

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...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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In reply to GaryI'm very glad that you were advised to purchase and train with one of the finest self-defense weapons around the .45 ACP, but remember there are still politicians that would like nothing better than to deprive you of the right to have that weapon in your home. They say that you have police officers to protect you and that a home defense weapon is more of a hazard to the home owner than it ever is to the criminal element.Just my opinion.aristech

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It still dont Compair to Kennedy in Berlin durring his Presidency talking about Freedom "Ich Bein ein Berliner" and he did that in full view of the Russian troops across the wall in Berlin.
Its to bad that we dont have a leader like Kennedy in office nowDon Pottorff
Long Live the Steam
www.vmf323.com
www.fiero.nl

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 07:40 PM (EST)

Actually, if I recall what I've heard correctly and my few words of German, Kennedy actually called himself a jelly doughnut.If I'm proven wrong, I'll recant what I said and apologize.

Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas
I Support MSTS IRC Chat. http://chat.dtimsts.vze.com
Member #3, Trainorders Refugee Association - http://evans.railfan.net/TORA.htm

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 08:11 PM (EST)

You are proven wrong. Look it up in google.He could have called himself a frankfurter in Frankfurt, or a hamburger in Hamburg, and although berliner is a doughnut, I think the citizens of berlin got the message! LOL!It just made good media at the time.David

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However (and one of our German speaking contributors can back me up or correct me as the case may be) the proper way to say it is: "Ich bin Berliner!"
As Mr. Kennedy said it, he is comparing himself to a pastry.

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.
Yahoo IM Name: mercer127 - MSN Messenger: oldrailfan1

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I agree that ALL troops, ours and coalition troops as well, should receive our FULL support as they have been placed in harms way for questionalbe political reasons...reasons that have not been fully substantiated!As for the Comander in Chief, a man who went AWOL for 18 months during his military career with the Texas Air National Guard to do political work in Louisiana, I view his trip to Iraq as nothing more than a cynical re-election ploy!

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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Hey Shep,You can't have it both ways!
Either he is dumber than a box of rocks and can't find his butt with both hands and a set of pictorial directions or he is the wiliest political operative to come along since Ron Reagan and is easily the equal of Billary in cold calculating vindictive politics...So which is it buddy? Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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"Cold calculating vindictive politics" seems to be an apt description for the members of both our national political parties. The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the American electorate has fallen prey to to this type of political electioneering propaganda! In my naivete I still place a great deal of value on people who are of a Liberal, Independent and/or Conservative mindset yet we have become a house sharply divided and that causes me great concern for the well being of our country. I'm just old fashioned enough to still believe int a "Goverment of the people, by the people, for the people" and hopfully pray that the people of this great country can overcome those issues that so divide us. As usual, Chuck, I always look forward to your comments!

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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>> "Government of the people, by the people, for the people" <<let me add to that......"with the deepest pockets".George Will said this morning that government spending per household is or will be what it was in 1942, during WWII, the big one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't catch the whole interview.MONEY TALKS, and that is the bottom line.Only person that seems to bring this up is John McCain, pork barrel spending, and nobody seems to care. Damned if I know.And so it goes......Bob

---------
...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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>MONEY TALKS, and that is the bottom line.
>
>Only person that seems to bring this up is John McCain, pork
>barrel spending, and nobody seems to care.Pork barrel spending cuts down both party lines. Ted Kennedy and Hillary Care are two left examples. The new medicare prescription bill is an example from the right.

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>>>Pork barrel spending cuts down both party lines. Ted Kennedy and Hillary Care are two left examples. The new medicare prescription bill is an example from the right.<<<Yes it does! Don't these goofy politicians, on BOTH sides, look at the deficit and see what they are doing?My biggest beef is with these large company's contributions to politicians and/or political parties. It is nothing more than bribery, plain and simple. And nobody seems to care or do anything about it.I would give a million bucks, if I had it, to come back in 2075 and look at the mess.And so it goes.....Bob

---------
...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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Well, this is a first! I agree with Don for a change, that southern air must be doing you good. Well put, Don!David

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David...Thank You!

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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>Hey Shep,
>
>You can't have it both ways!
>Either he is dumber than a box of rocks and can't find his
>butt with both hands and a set of pictorial directions or he
>is the wiliest political operative to come along since Ron
>Reagan and is easily the equal of Billary in cold
>calculating vindictive politics...
>
>So which is it buddy?
LOL, you do NOT want me to answear that one Chuck LOL!

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-03 AT 06:36 PM (EST)

I saw this thread a few days ago when there were only a few of posts.
I thought to myself then…, this is going to get really interesting.Well, you guys didn’t disappoint. This thread has gone from soup to nuts…, and back again.This forum is a constant source of amusement…,
and on occasion…, useful information.Oh!! By the way…, regarding GW…, he may not speak eloquently…, he may stumble now and again…, he may ‘hawk’ on the Whitehouse lawn…, but he’s my President…, and he’s got balls!!And I’d bet GW knows that gun control means…, “holding the weapon with two hands”.Have a sparkling day.
(edit word post to thread)

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To tell you the truth (Non American speaking here) I don't normally get involved in these discussions but to tell you the truth, having been involved in a couple of wars, and looking at the current situation over there, the guys are taking a little bit of a beating which can bring morale down.Whilst I don't agree with everything Mr Bush says or does and I form my own opinion on that, I Take my hat off to him in this instance, publicity stunt or not, it was a little risky but small potato's compared to what the guys are going through, what a nice suprise and a great way to bolster morale amonst the troops.Not so much a publicity stunt and more of a necessity methinks!Tim

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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I don't buy it. it definetly was a publicity stunt otherwise what was the necessity of having the media there. I can't support Mr. Bush nor can I trust that his intention were genuine because I can't look past all of the things he has screwed up while he has been president. The fact that, unlike any other president, he has not attended one funeral for any of the soldiers who were casualities of Iraq. You could use the excuse that he hasn't had any time, you know busy running the country and all, but then you'd have to overlook the fact that he is constantly on vacation and during his first year in office he spent more time on vacation than any president in U.S history. It's also disturbing that he set the largest annual deficiet in the history of the U.S. Or how about how he is the only president elected with a criminal record, a DUI in Maine I believe and no way of knowing what all he did in Texas because his record is not viewable to the public. Makes seem more like those corrupt CEOs that everyone hates so much. If only the Iraq war had something to do with making money...Remember 9/11 when most of the world gave it's support to the U.S. and now most of the world hates us. I hope I'm not the only one concerned about that. Nearly 75% of the world thinks Bush is the single largest threat to world peace and the stability of nations than Saddam or Al Qaeda or anyone else combined. I'm not saying all this just because I think you should go out and impeach Bush, but I am curious as to why everybody was so pissed off and willing to hang Bill Clinton for you know what, but now have no problem with any of the things that Bush has done. I've been trying to figure it out but I can't come up with any other reason other than that everyone is living in a plastic bubble and doesn't care about what happens with this country. I also have to say that I am not anti-war and I do support my troops even though I feel that they are fighting a war for oil and not for the well-being of the Iraqi people. While I agree that Saddam was someone who had no right leading a country I find it hard to believe that the intent of the War on Iraq was to liberate the Iraqi people. Remember at the end of the Gulf War how the other President Bush said that it was up to the people of Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein from power and it was not the rest of the world business, what changed? Why are we now so concerned with the well being of Iraq. Also why the hell do they keep using BS excuses as to why the war is necessary. We haven't found the Weapons of Mass Destruction, Saddam wasn't directly linked to the 9/11 attacks, if it's a war about making the rich richer I wish they'd just tell us that and stop lying. I'm sure the troops would fight much harder knowing what this war was really about, or maybe that's why we make the excuses. In closing I appologize for this long rambling post about nothing in particular but I felt I needed to at least make someone aware of what's really going on, and if you still want to support ALL that President Bush stands for than go right ahead, its your right as it is my right to disagree and I would never want to deny that right. I also hope that you will all educate yourself by looking at all areas of media for the truth not just the ones that seem more concerned with whatever thing Michael Jackson is having relations with or however that goes, you know the real news, like you know the stories that get ratings and not uncovering the truth about important things, because who really cares about investigating the truth about 9/11, thats old news right, no one really cares anymore, oh well, something like that I can't really remember. apologies in advance for any inacurracies though look it up before you flame me. joe

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>>>I don't buy it. it definetly was a publicity stunt otherwise what was the necessity of having the media there. I can't support Mr. Bush nor can I trust that his intention were genuine because I can't look past all of the things he has screwed up while he has been president<<<IMO, this was definitely not a publicity stunt. You say that is was because the media was there, but where isn't there media? The public wasn't even aware of his trip until after he landed in Iraq. This was a very classy move by Bush and one very much appreciated by the troops.Jordan L.

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i suppose i should have clarified that a little better, i meant that since the administration handpicked which media they would bring along, my thinking was that they only wanted people there who would report this in a positive light. in my opinion it would have been much more sincere if they had left the media and all the cameras at home and i would have believed it more if it was a private matter and not broadcast for the whole world to see.joe

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Your asking if the president can go without the press? That's a good question but I think the answer is not hardly. This is not something I know, or care to for that matter, about. But from what I understand, a pool of reporters from the news networks are assigned to the president. On any given day if something happens, the press uses the pool to send somebody who then reports what they found out to all the news networks. This is how information comes out of the whitehouse unless the white house press secretary releases that information himself. But even still, I think the press secretary only reports to the same press pool. I believe it's an agreement between the press and the whitehouse, but I don't think it's required. So any president has to let some members of the press pool tag along. Now in this instance there is some flap because those who knew they were going, didn't tell the others. It was kept a secret. I'm sure if the area they were going to wasn't so hostile, then I'm sure there would have been the usual media glitz.One thing though. The way you are using the words 'publicity stunt,' it just sounds as if any public appearance by anybody is a stunt. Half of any president's first term is going to be about getting re-elected so this is pretty much business as usual. Same thing with any other politician. Prez Shrubman is only getting this much notariety this time around because it was a dangerous thing to do given the size of that airplane he flys around in. Easy target as it makes its approach.The last thing to say is, just because someone does something nice and it does have reward to it, doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. No one is going to re-elect our shrubman just because he rode an airplane into a dangerous area. However, and there's plenty of GI's saying it, is they are glad he came. And for that reason alone, I'm glad he did too.Rich Garber

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C'mon guys! Call it what it is...a bullsh!t PR stunt! The emperor is buck nekkid.Wag the TurkeyOh and one more thing: Hitler also toured Paris! Notable exceptions: Hitler actually rode around in public in an open car...he didn't skulk in and out under a cloak of secrecy and darkness. So what are we to conclude from this? That people in the rest of the world have a lower regard for shrub than for one of the most hated men in the 20th century and that he's more likely to face assassination attempts? Yep...real great leader you've picked for yourselves...http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/11/Mueller_281103.html

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"The President left Waco secretly Wednesday at 8:25 p.m. Eastern (7:25 p.m. Texan) with a small pool, stopped at Andrews to pick up a few staff and a few more poolers, change planes and then head to Baghad. Both flights were what we think of as the normal Air Force One, Boeing 747 with the normal marking. The President landed in darkness at Baghdad International Airport at 9:31 a.m. Washington time (5:32 p.m. local) on Thursday, Nov. 27, Thanksgiving Day. He took off at 12:03 p.m. Eastern time, so was in Baghdad roughly 2.5 hours."copied from AP press pool sourceMakes you wonder about those 'smart' replacements for the shrub fella if they haven't figured out this revelation for themselves, huh?Oh, btw, what was the name of that fella who let that Hitler fella tromp all over Europe to start with? Wanna compare the loss of life on that one?Rich Garber

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After Kennedy was shot, the modern Presedental Motorcade evolved, along with several other security measures. Don't blame Bush for his security measures Joseph, they have been used by almost every president since Kennedy. As for Hitler, if someone took a potshot at him
while he was riding in an open car, don't you think he would have started taking extra security measures? And if Kennedy was never shot, I wonder what presedential security would look like today?Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-03 AT 09:42 AM (EST)

> As for Hitler,
>if someone took a potshot at him
>while he was riding in an open car, don't you think he would
>have started taking extra security measures? If someone had taken a potshot at Hitler he would have done to that city what he did to others. like shooting every 6th person, or something equally as drastic.
Mike

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>> As for Hitler,
>>if someone took a potshot at him
>>while he was riding in an open car, don't you think he would
>>have started taking extra security measures?
>
>If someone had taken a potshot at Hitler he would have done
>to that city what he did to others. like shooting every 6th
>person, or something equally as drastic.True, but don't you think he still would have taken lots of extra percautions anyway?Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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"True, but don't you think he still would have taken lots of extra percautions anyway?"Sure he would have. And he did. And I guarantee you that show of strength was done after a sweep was made of the area. If I remember correctly the area he rode was wide open which is disadventageous for sniprs. He also created the Gestapo, a secret fortress (can't recall the name offhand) and surrounded himself only with aides he felt were incredibly loyal. (oh, let me say this that I'm only participating here for the history aspect of this.)The comparison that RB made earlier that initiated this tangent is just too goofy. By the time Hitler visited Paris, France was considered a beaten country. The population had no more a means to initiate further hostilities to drive Hitler out. Obvious to the situation at the time was by no means France happy about the latest in conquering dictators. Nothing less than shock gripped those people to see of all people, the Germans marching down their streets again. This wasn't supposed to happen.And it shouldn't have. Obsolete strategies, lack of resolve and communication failures allowed an army in some respects, better outfitted, to lose.So to bring this back in context, RB's assertions are way beyond direct analogies and plausibilities. My guess is he and like many others, so dislike our shrub fella that they'll try to make connections and draw parallels that to the rest of us are unfounded.Rich Garber

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"Oh, btw, what was the name of that fella who let that Hitler fella tromp all over Europe to start with?"I"m interested in the answer to that question!Prior to our countries involvement in WW2 the prevailing sentiment in the United States was isolationism and anti-war. The death and destruction of WW1 was well remembered in the USA and the American public wanted nothing to do with another European War! The Political Party of Lincoln was staunchly anti-war and fought the then sitting President and the possibility of potential involvement.There in no question, historically, that Mr. Churchill and Mr. Roosevelt wanted to establish a military coalition but the political climate would not permit American involvement. 12-7-41 changed that attitude with telling results!

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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Exactly!The pre-war sentiment of the 30's after the great war was disillusionment over the liberal theology that prevailed after the great war. This was the man's greatest ascent since the history of mankind to know now that the prevailing ideaology and technical wizardry suggest that the war to end all wars happened. Never again was the east or west to see anything as monsterous as WW1. Before that, the States were looked upon as having the most brutal civil war ever with casualties so high it was inconceivable it would happen again. There were plenty who argued that a dark cloud was rising in Europe and John Maynard Keynes spoke out furiously against the treaties that crippled Germany. As the 30's progressed and Hitler expanded his power base, his army expanded. But if you look at the equipment Germany possessed, it simply wasn't that good. France and England both had the equipment to stop the aggression. It was the lack of leadership resolve in pre WW2 days that allowed and almost encouraged to some extent the beginnings of WW2. It was the appeasement thought of the day that allowed such a war to be fought as Hitler grasped more land. Some keep arguing that Hitler's might was too powerful. That just simply isn't true. The only thing Hitler's army had going for it was the technique of the blitzkreig.
It's real easy to just blame Chamberlain for what could have been prevented. You're absolutely right in that there was a strong anti-war sentiment everywhere. And it's in the vacuum of no resolve that tyrants and dicatators get their way. Hitler should have never made it to Paris. He did because there's too many folks who want to believe it can never happen again. Yet over and over, it does. Putting it differently, as long as there are two people in this world, agrression and evil will always be with us.Rich Garber

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Your thesis is interesting although I do not agree with your evaluation of the German Army and its equipment. The French depended on the Maginot Line, to no avail, and the British the English Channel, and the Royal Navy, as their first line of defense. The French and British did not have the military equipment in quantity or quality to match the German air and ground equipment. Nor, IMHO, did they have a General Staff of equal quality.A large portion of the French civilian and military population joined the Vichy French (pro Nazi) Government which was a POLITICAL mistake of huge proportions. The British and their Commonwealth brethern drew a line and dared Hitler to cross it!I strongly feel and believe that men of Good Will, regardless of their religious, racial, ethnic and political backgrounds, will always rise up and defeat evil!On a brighter side...I purchased the Canton Route and wish to thank you for your time and effort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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The French equipment was far superior to that of the Germans in most cases exceptfor mobility. Their guns and srmor were superior. It was infective tactics and leadership that doomed the French. The German General's, Rommel and Guderion (sp), understood how to use armor to the greatest benefit. They are the ones who developed the blitzkreig tactics and had the politcal backing to put them into effect. In tank warfare, mobility is a major factor in who wins. The French, instead of concentrating their armor into Armored Divisions, scattered it out in small units that were then overrun by the numerical superior armored division's of the German Army. In all the actions involving French armor, the Germans achieved tactical and numerical superiority.Later developments in tanks lead to the construction of the Tiger and the King Tiger tanks. While fantastic tanks in their own right, they sacrificed mobility for fire power and armor. This enabled the US tanks, the M4 Sherman - which was vastly inferior to any German tank, to overwhelm German formations. The gave up the advantage of mobility.The General's of the French Army refused to see how warfare had changed since WW1. They still envisioned linear warfare, but Poland should have showed them otherwise. They and the Belgian's hid behind their fortifications and paid the price for it. The German tatics of envelopment, both by paratroopers and mobile formation "end running" the forts took into account the inertia in the French and British commands.The British equipment also left much to be desired, though they tried to use it to better effect. But again the lack of mobility of British armor hurt. Theirs, like the French were basically slow moving pillboxes.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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"This enabled the US tanks, the M4 Sherman - which was vastly inferior to any German tank, to overwhelm German formations. The gave up the advantage of mobility."I just want to add to this for the purposes of history talk is something I found fascinating when reading the book on Patton. Apparently for the allies, George Patton practiced blitzkreig-like tactics in his romp through southern France. Closely coordinating air power with the Shermans, Patton apparently never really thought the Sherman was that outclassed. The Panther, Tiger and Tiger II tanks were sparse and spread out along the German perimeter. This allowed the Shermans to move quickly to the rear of German equipment and attack these powerful tanks with the lesser Sherman. I think the interesting question was why we continued to use the Sherman. My reckoning is because with the European theatre nearly closed and the Japanesse using light equipment, the US was reluctant to spend money on heavy tank equipment. The did eventually introduce the M26 Pershing which from what I hear was very capable. I think also the extra logisitics of moving that kind of heavy equipment across the seas might have had something to do with it too.I'm a history buff of just about anything, except anicient history. I'm getting there though as I find that each age's roots is connected to the previous age.Rich Garber

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Patton was one of the few US Generals who understood the concept of tank warfare from before the war. A majority of the US command still expected wars to be fought in a linear battlefield. That was why he was so successfull in exploiting breakthroughs in his area, while Montgomery was not. He realized that mobility in the modern battlefield won. Monty bludgeoned his fronts, he never realized and exploited a breakthrough untill the Ruhr Valley and then he did it very slowly and poorly. If you read his reports, he knew the Sherman was outclassed, he used the advantages of the Sherman - speed - to it fullest. By getting into the German's rear area and disrupting communications and supplies he was able to isolate the Tigers/Panthers and defeat them by overwhelming them. As unmanuverable as the German tanks were, they could be defeated by surrounding them and shotting into the rear of the tank.The Grant and Sherman were really designed, like the German MkII, as more of an infantry supprot tank than as an anti-tank platform. It showed in the type of gun selected for each. The M10, an antitank tracked vehicle could beat the Panthers and fight the Tigers to a standstill. But they were treated more as a mobile antitank gun rather than as a tank. They had open turrets and were not built to get into a running battle with other tanks. The M26 was an excellent tank, the design was slow to get off the drawing boards. It was also a good bit heavier than the M4 and that leads to problems in transporting. Also with any new weapon, it took time to train the tankers to use it. It was hard to change the mindset that the M4 developed. The crews had a hard time understanding that they could go toe to toe with a Panther or Tiger and survive.German tactics were to hold the armor in reserve to blunt the breakthoughs. But Allied domination of the air, esp when P47's and Thypoons were used as tank killers, prevented the Germans to be able to move them to where they were needed. The only way to defend against a blitzkreig type warfare is to develope a defense of depth. This is what the Russians did at Kursk. There is an excellent book out there, though right now I cannot think of the name or the author of it. I haven't seen it for about 20 years though. It was wriiten by a German who was Guderion's Aide and later commander of the 10th Panzer Division during the retreat through Poland. I'll look around and see if I can find it.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Hope you like the Canton route. There has always been an over-rating of the German army because of its early successes. As a kid I thought the same thing too. You look at what the German army possessed and what they were developing at the time and how can anybody not be impressed by their material weaponry. However, upon closer inspection of their early equipment, pre-Russia involvement reveals something to be considered. The early weaponry against Poland and the sweep through Europe shows the Germans possessed tanks of subferior proportions to what France and England had. Same with aircraft. Let's do a quick review. Tanks back then were no more than carraiges with machine guns on them. The German aircraft back then was okay for the time, but quickly became obsolete when challenged by an evolutionary development of weaponry. The ME-109 was still one of the main components of the Luftwaffe through-out the war yet it was a prewar design they couldn't throw away because it was too costly to abandon it while gearing up new designs. The Stuka which was thought to be so effective, turned out to be slow and deadly for those riding in it. The German army didn't see a radical change in weaponry until they encountered the Russian T-34/76 and other Russian equipment easily superior in most regards. In fact, the well known Panther tank (Mark V) was a copy of this tank with commanders more impressed with the copy than a competing version based on a unique design. So go back now and look at what the French had and you'll see they had weaponry that should've and could've been used more effectively. However, lack of resolve, intimidation based on past successes of the German army elsewhere, and all the other factors making up the confusion of war, led a country which was better outfitted in many respects to lose. The English also had weapons suitable to meet the Germans head on. The disasters leading to Dunkirk was incredibly unfortunate. And in some sense, you could look back to the prewar years for this. It's easy to overlook the significance of this but it was the allies who won World War 1. Obviously. So how is it that the losers of this altercation should come back with superior equipment when for most of the time, the country was in total depression because of the treaties signed after WW1? They didn't. But the allies of WW1 were gripped with philosophies and theologies that said it could never happen again. Even more astounding is these countries, France and Britan had excellent equipment for the early development of material warfare. The weaponry they were coming out with in WW1 was pretty innovative for their time. So it's remarkable they took beatings against a country which didn't have the capability to rebuild. In other words, it wasn't the German army that became so overwhelmingly superior, rather, it was the allies who allowed their militaries to become antiquated during the peace years that led to the early successes of WW2.In a way, you can't blame them. WW1 was the most attrocious war ever faught. The fear from using chemical weapons is still here today. The masses who flailed themselves in front of machine gun fire to die for useless ground and barb wire is saddening and the numbers are staggering. The trouble with this all is the philosophy of the people, like you pointed out, prevented them for taking precautions for the next war. By the time they faced the implausible, it really was too late.Rich GarberP.S. Just saw Kevin's post and that's basically what I learned from my readings too. Excellent history lesson Kevin!

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Thanks. At one time I had a huge WW2 library - about 100 books or so. My folks gave it to the library years ago.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
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Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-03 AT 02:23 PM (EST)

>Thanks. At one time I had a huge WW2 library - about 100
>books or so. My folks gave it to the library years ago. Ouch, I would've hold on to it. I love WW II material. I have a friend who collects German SS (Secret Police) uniform. Also yall are forgetting one German tatics that the Nazi army used. I forgot the name of it, but they struck fast, and they struck hard. The Allies power (France, Poland, England) Did not have a chance agaisnt this militatry tatics. An example of how effecative this tatic was, it only took them 17 Days to take over France 17 DAYS! Then again it is France we're talking about... While the allied power may have the higher end of the techological pole, it didn't matter when it came to the tatics the German used.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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Norway didn't have half the military strength of France. 90% of Norways military and 99,9% of our tactics were outdated (much of it already at the time of the 1st world war).
Still, it took the Germans two months to conquer Norway..

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-03 AT 11:54 AM (EST)

Rich, most people forget about Chamberlain's predecessor, Ramsey MacDonald (term 1931-1937), under whose watch Hitler committed most of his treaty violations, including the seizure of the industrial Rhineland (1936), and Albert Lebrun, the President of France from 1932 to France's surrender in 1940. Stopping Hitler from seizing the Rhineland (which had been neutralized by the Versaille treaty) was the last opportunity the Western Powers had to prevent World War II altogether. If they had prevented the seizure of the Rhineland, Hitler's ambitions would have been crushed then and there. Of course, there were plenty of earlier opportunities the Western Powers had to crush Hitler, such as when he started violating the Versaille treaty...Don, Hitler's military only became a real problem for the Western Powers in the late '30s, after war production entered full swing. Before the Rhineland seizure, France and Great Britain could have dealt with Germany quite swiftly if they wanted to.
A few notes about the assault on France: The french had almost as many troops as the Germans, the French tanks had much heavier armor and gun caliber than the German tanks, but the French were using obsolete tactics, which were quickly bypassed by the Blitzkreig offensive. Some of these flawed tactics included: Using tanks solely to support infantry, when the Germans were fielding independant Panzer divisions, and using aircraft simply for scouting and ground attacks, engaging other aircraft only when necessary, when the Germans and British had already had the idea of using fighters to "cleanse the skies" (in the words of Winston Churchill). If the French had used more effective tactics, doctrine, and organization, it's possible the Germans could not have defeated them, especially since they were supported by the British.EDIT: We must have posted at the same time Kevin. Your point about the modility of tanks is quite true, but of course mobility isn't everything, as some engagements against Tigers proved. In Normandy, for example, a single Tiger decimated an entire regiment of British Cromwell tanks (the only thing that stopped it was it's ammo supply). The only Allied tank deployed during the war that was able to engage the Tigers and King Tigers on with numerical parity was the US T26 Pershing, but only 120 of these were actually deployed, and had little impact on the war. The Germans would have been better off producing the mk.V Panther tank, which was far superior to anything in the Allied arsenal (including the Soviet T-34/85). It could even effectivly fight the Soviet IS-II heavy tanks, whch were armed with 122m guns. Unfortunately for the Germans, they continued on the "Heavy" path, which ultimately resulted in the enormous "Maus" (mouse)
superheavy tank. This 188 ton monster (the M1A2 Abrams, for comparison, weighs less than 70 tons), doubled the armor protection of the King Tiger, and was armed with a massive 128mm or 150mm gun (second prototype had the 150mm), and a 75mm co-ax gun. Only two prototypes were produced. The first was destroyed by the Germans to prevent it's capture, the second is now a museum peice. This tank was the ultimate folly on the part of the Germans, because they could never have produced it in meanigful numbers.

Another point I think sould be addressed is the German navy (The Kreigsmarine), which was quite weak during the entire war. The only started the war with 100 submarines, 1
battleship (Bismarck whose capabilities have been grossly exaggerated by many sources), and 2 battlecruisers (Sharnhorst and Gneisnau were actually designated battleships by the Germans, but their 11in. guns, which were quite small for a battleship, led many to view them as battlecruisers) 3 heavy cruisers, and a handful of destroyers and similar sized ships. Although the Germans eventually built a massive fleet of U-boats, they only completed one other capital ship, the Bismarck's sistership Tirpitz. They never even managed to build a single aircraft carrier!
By comparison, the British started the war with a 12 battleships, 3 battlecruisers, 3 carriers, 13 heavy cruisers, and oodles of destroyer and similar light warships. Even the French started the war with a bigger navy than Germany. Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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I would like to add some pints to this discussion, specifically to the navy Debate. It should be noted that Admiral Erich Raeder, who commanded the German Navy (Reichsmarine, later Kriegsmarine) from 1928 to 1943, stated in 1939 that: "...Concerning the Kriegsmarine, it is most definitely not sufficiently equipped for a full-scale confrontation with England..."You state in your post that the Kriegsmarine never managed to build even a single aircraft carrier. THis is not true, the Graf Zeppelin was 90% completed in 1940, but ongoing confrontations between Hermann Göring (Luftwaffe) and Adm. Raeder about who should bbe in charge of the air group stalled completion until late 1944, when it was already to late. And even apart from the arguments pointed out above, she was a flawed construction, designed to carry only 50 planes and armed with 15-cm guns (Ths same caliber as used by the German light cruisers of the time.The problem of leadership conflicts in the higher echelons of german command plagued germany throughout WW2 and, together with Hitlers increasing insanity (thankfully) prevented effective defensive strategies to be implemented following the Normandy landings.Another big problem was that many resources were pushed into the U-Boat fleet and ground forces thus (in the later phaeses of the war) stalling or at least hindering projects like the Me-262 (the worlds first operational jet fighter, which Hitler wanted to use as a bomber)

"Damn the torpeodoes- Four bells Captain Drayton" - Admiral Farragut aboard USS Harford during the Battle of Mobile Bay, August 5th 1864.

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Great read! Add to this the problem of logistics and protracted war becomes an unsolveable problem. They say it was for the Urals that Hitler had to invade Russia. This became the mistake of opening the 'second front' of the war and thus the inevitable conclusion bore itself out.What I have yet to understand is why they felt it was so urgent that they felt the need to go after England. If it's just 'world conquest' stuff, so be it. I just thought there might be some other explaination. Any ideas?Rich Garber

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The stopping of the Army when it could have easily destroyed the BEF at Dunkirk has never been explained in a satisfactory manner. I think his biggest mistake was NOT invading England before turning on Russia. This left a viper at his back door. The US would have been hard pressed to strike back if he had. While they could still have by going through the Med, it would have narrowed the places an invasion could have taken place and was much more an area where a defense could have been mounted.The delay in invading Russia whould also have weakened the Soviet Army. Before the invasion, Stalin was having another of his pogroms in the Army. Many of its most able generals were either in Siberia or prison for "crimes" agianst the state. But they had not been executed yet and while Stalin was paraniod, he was not stupid, as soon as the Germans attacked he "rehabilited" the Generals in time to fight them off at the gates of Moscow. Germany needed the natural resources that Russia had. Gernamy had very little of its own. during the war, it got 90% of it minerals from the Scandanavian countries, including neutral Sweden. The riches were to hard for him to pass up and Hitler needed them to carry on his plans. That is the reason for the shift to the southern front in Russia in the second year. Since he did not take Moscow, which he felt would knock Russia out of the war, he went for the oil. He had no other options.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Just to return to the original topic of bush, If we wanted to start a political debate, I really could go on all night. but basically, i think his motives are questionable. especially over Iraq.

How can you eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat?

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-03 AT 10:11 PM (EST)

>Just to return to the original topic of bush, If we wanted
>to start a political debate, I really could go on all night.
>but basically, i think his motives are questionable.
>especially over Iraq. And pray tell explain to us warmongering Yanquis once again why we should care what you think?Is there some kind of underground network? Secret Pacifist Communications Network? Everytime a subject like this comes up it seems like every pacifist Troll in the world runs over here and signs in just to post a "what's wrong with America and the Americans" or "Bush is an Idiot" and then we don't hear another damn thing from them for a month or two....David at least Trolls on here regularly......BTW, what ever happened to Larkie? I just can't see him staying out of this one....
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-03 AT 06:31 PM (EST)

There were many reasons for not invading England. First of all, it is an Island, and thus required an assault by sea. For that, air superiority was essential, but the battle of Britain just managed to see that off. Why? Because after England bombed Berlin early on in the war, as a reprisal for a mistaken bombing by a German unit on an English town, Hitler decided to bomb London and other major cities. This gave England enough time to replace all the fighters and men that had been lost in previous fighting.Secondly, Hitler was convinced that England wouldn't fight. Our monarchy was basically German (and still is), and there were quite a few pro German supporters in the UK. Unfortunately for Hitler, we got the right Prime Minister at the right time, in Winston Churchill. The blackshirts in the UK were all locked away. Subsequently Three: He never destroyed the the BEF when he could have. A big mistake.Hitlers major error was his tactics in switching towards Russia in the Barbarossa campaign. Russia was just too big, (as Napolean found out), and Blitzgrieg tactics could only work so far. Hitler regarded the Russians as totally inferior as human beings, and believed they would not fight. This may have been due to the pathetic Russian action in Finland. I would also like to mention that the US at the time regarded the Japanese as inferior due to poor eyesight, but that is another chapter.There were initial successes in Russia, but a couple of disastrous changes of plan to secure Oil which split the German army into weaker divisions, plus the change in weather, for which the German army was woefully unequipped (back to Napolean again!), caused chaos.Germany lost more people to cold than fighting at one point. Supply lines were too long, and the momentum just stopped, some 50 miles short of Moscow.And then the Soviets developed th T-34 tank, arguably the best tank ever developed. They were totally immune to the tigers shells, due to the slanted nature of their armour and had superior fire power. After that, it was just a matter of time.The basic errors were:Germany invaded Russia before it was ready.
Japan declared war on the US, a neutral Country.
Germany then joined in. Two very silly mistakes.Who won the war for the Allies? In my opinion, Russia. If Hitler had devoted his time to Western Europe, he could have run the whole lot.Once that was established who knows what would have happened.David

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Alot of good information there David, here's a few comments:"And then the Soviets developed th T-34 tank, arguably the best tank ever developed. They were totally immune to the tigers shells, due to the slanted nature of their armour and had superior fire power. After that, it was just a matter of time."Yep, the T-34 was a masterful stroke by the Russians with its 45 degree slanted armor. However, the 76mm gun possessed the early T-34 was adequate. Even more so because German weaponry to this point was inadequate. Getting back to my assertion, the French could have beaten back the German army. My original point however is that the German army of pre and early WW2, has been for a long time overrated. On a side note: I also don't think the armor of the T-34 could repel Tiger firepower. Tiger's possessed at least an 88mm gun which pretty much was going through anything. If I recall, the T-34 predates the Tiger so I don't recall any Tigers going up against T-34s unless you mean the 85mm gun variant. I'm guessing but if you look at the tank treads of the Tiger variants, they all possess the same chasis that came from the Mark V, Panther tank. This change in tank design is a copy from the Russian T-34/76 and KV series of the Russians. So formidable was the Russian T-34 that the Germans copied the Russian design instead of coming up with their own."Who won the war for the Allies? In my opinion, Russia. If Hitler had devoted his time to Western Europe, he could have run the whole lot.""I have to disagree with this opinion. First, the whole might of the US was never thrown against just one front of the war. The US was split up going against the Japanese, and the Germans on two different fronts on two different continents. WW2 forced the Americans to develope a military that covers all the major elements of war, land, sea and air. Russia on the other hand while developed on land and air, only worked one front of the war. If you remember, Stalin urged, pleaded and demanded that FDR being the offensive campaign in the west (invaision of Normandy). Churchill was able to block that request for at least a year so the Allies would concentrate in the Med. The Russians had their best advantage in the situation they were in. They had great tank weaponry in a tacticle arena that most favored them. They didn't have the Navy or long range air striking ability to combat Germany much outside of Russia.It was never a question that Germany would lose the war. It was simply a matter of when. Without the proper material and logistics to fight the war. Hitler's greed for conquest sealed the war fate early on. At every point Hitler could have been beaten. It's easy to say this from hindsight of course. As much as we have and would like to prop up the German military build-up in pre-WW2, the data isn't there to support it. But a mystique has grown about the war much like the Bismarck, mostly a WW1 design, there was more fear to the name than it could deliver.Rich Garber

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The German Army at the beginning had inferior equipment compared to the Allies. It was a matter of tatics and leadership. The German's fully understood the nature of tank warfare and how to apply it while the Allies did not. That was all there was to it. A French tank could stand up to anything the German's had. After all the MKIII had a field gun, it was meant for close infantry support. It was not until the MkIV that the German's developed a true tank.The suspension used on the T-34 was the Christie suspension. Christie was an American, but the US did not see the need for that type of suspension in the mid 30's. At the time they invisioned the tank as a close in infantry support, not has Patton or Rommel invisioned tank tactics. The Russians, with their wide open steppes, saw the advantages and used it on the T-34. The large road wheels was the main characteristic of the Christie suspension.The soft underbelly was not that way, look at the campaign in Italy. Without the threat from invasion over the Channel, it would have released many of the troops along the Atlantic Wall for duty against a invasion from the Med or use on the Russian front. Also, if he had captured England, it would have given the Uboats a huge strategic advantage in the Battle of the Atlantic. No longer would they have had to run the gauntlet just to get into the Atlantic. Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 07:17 PM (EST)

"And then the Soviets developed th T-34 tank, arguably the best tank ever developed. They were totally immune to the tigers shells, due to the slanted nature of their armour and had superior fire power. After that, it was just a matter of time."The T-34 was far from the greatest tank ever built, or even the greatest tank of it's time. Although the final variants (T-34/76 M1943 and T-34/85 M1944) were vastly improved over the prewar variants, there were still tanks that had superior protection and firepower, notably the German Mk.V Panther medium tank, arguably the outstanding German tank of WWII (the T-34 was somewhat faster than the Panther, however). Compared to the M4 Sherman, the T-34 had only slightly better frontal protection, but 50% better side and rear protection, and it was less likely to "brew up" when penetrated, because it used a diesel engine, and had better ammo stowage protection.However, the T-34 was indeed superior to any German tank when it was first encountered by them, which is why they developed the Panther, which proved itself vastly superior to the T-34/76, as it had 65% more frontal armor protection, and only slightly inferior side protection, and a 75mm KwK42 high velocity gun that could deliver 60% more penetration than the T-34's 76.2mm gun (the Panther's gun in fact had slightly better penetration than even the 88mm KwK36 gun used on the Tiger I). This was sufficient to penetrate the T-34 at any range, while the T-34/76 could not penetrate the Panther from the front at all. This led the Russians to seek to upgrade their tanks. They initially tried to develop a high-velocity gun like the Panther's, but development on this gun failed, and the Russians had to settle for a larger caliber gun, hence the T-34/85. This tank featured 20% more frontal armor, and simeralry better side protection, but it could still be penetrated by the Panther at most engagment ranges, and the 85mm gun still had inferior penetration to the Panther's gun (until the Russians began introducing discarding-sabot ammo in late 1944). Another note about the 85mm gun, it's penetration was similar to the long-barreled 76mm guns that started to appear on the Shermans in late 1944, but the 85mm shells did more damage if they got through the armor, due to their larger bursting charge. Now T34/85 (no sabot ammo) vs. Tiger: This would be something like an M1A1 Abrams vs. a "Monkey Model" T-72 (no further description needed). Against the King Tiger (armament of this had 50% more penetrating power than Tiger I, and had 40% more frontal protection, enough to stop any Allied projectile at any range) Well, let me give an example: During the Battle of Berlin in 1945, two King Tigers were all that could be spared to defend the Reichschtag: These two King Tigers destroyed over 30 Soviet tanks, most of which were T-34s, the rest were most likely IS-II (Iosef Stalin) heavy tanks. The German tanks were abandoned after running out of ammo.
But rembember, when comparing tanks you have to remember to compare tham to other tanks of their class (Light, Medium, and Heavy tanks). The T-34 was a medium tank, as was the Panther and Sherman. The Tiger, King Tiger, and the Soviet-IS series were heavy tanks (the Pershing was initially known as a heavy tank, but was reclassified as a medium tank sometime before the Korean War). But the T-34's success lay mainly it's numbers: during the war the Soviets produced something like 50,000 T-34's, twice the number all German tank production combined (4,800 Panthers, 9,000 Mk.IVs, 1,300 Tiger I's, and 500 King Tigers, along with 8,000 assorted smaller tanks). The Americans also produced alot of tanks, to the tune of 88,000 Shermans. The Allied tanks beat the German tanks with sheer numbers, and as Kevin pointed out, mobility. The last advantage that assured Allied victory was air superority, against which no conventional army has ever won a war since the start of WWII. By late 1943, the Allies had air superority over the Luftwaffe on both fronts...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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WooHoo!! I haven't seen a post like that since the days of Panzer Elite and Panzer Commander forums! Boy those were fun times! Excellent write-up! Are you involved with Wargammer at all? I'm getting fired up enough to pull out Panzer Elite and give it a whirl again. Question for you Jon...Just how good were those JS and IS tanks anyway? They sure looked lethal. Most I ever got out of the books was that most Russian tank development were cramped and difficult to be in. I've read that the internal designs were so cramped that reloading the guns were very difficult and a hinderance to battlefield performance.I'm also curious if they used the tanks properly too. From what I remember the Russians used heavy tanks to exploit breeches but that was about it.Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 08:44 PM (EST)

Rich, the IS-series tanks were ultimately quite powerful, but how "good" they were depended on which version. The IS-I, which was designed to replace the KV-series as the Red Army's main heavy tank, was armed with the same 85mm gun as the T-34/85. This proved unsatisfactory in combat with German heavy tanks, so a new variant, the IS-II was produced, which started appearing in spring 1944. This tank had armor protection which overall was around halfway between the Tiger I and King Tiger, but it's huge 122mm gun could only achieve 82% the penetration of the King Tiger's 88mm KwK43 gun, due to it's much lower muzzle velocity. It should be noted however, that the big 56lb shell fired by this gun could crack any German tank's armor and running gear after a 3 or 4 hits, even if it didn't actually penetrate the armor. The gun was also quite hard to aim, so the IS-II generally had lower accuracy than the Tiger or King Tiger. Another disadvantage of the IS-II's was limited ammo supply (28 rounds), due to their huge shells. The IS-II was faster than either version of the Tiger, however.
Immediately after the fall of Berlin, the IS-III started to appear. This had the same gun as it's predecessor, but it had better protection than even the King Tiger, and it did not sacrifice any speed to achieve this. For information on further development of the IS-series, see hereNow for your other questions, no I'm not involved with Wargamer (yet)
For tank sims, and wargames, I play Steel Beasts (modern tanksim), Steel Panthers WWII (freeware turn-based wargame), and Steel Panthers: Main Battle Tank (Again, freeware turn-based wargame. timespan: 1946-2020)
As for how effectivly the Soviets used their tanks, this mainly depended on the timeframe and the field commander in charge. Earlier in the war, the Russian's officar corps were so bad that calling them incompetent would be a complement, thanks mainly to Stalin's purges. Later it largely depended on the field commander. The better Soviet field commanders like Zhukov and Koniev used their tanks to great effect, combining them carefully with infantry (to secure areas the tanks had blitzed across), and of course, they preceded armored assaults with artillery...lots and lots of artillery. Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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Thanks much for the information! From my early days of Panzer Blitz (the board game) I wondered about these variants. I never came across much about them so I definetely will check the link.Wargammer seems to have held on through the purge of wargamming sites this year. I didn't think they would make it. If you know of some others, I'd like to check them out. I have Steel Beasts too and if there's one thing I learned from that sim is things can get out of hand fast. Knowing how to play the game would be a big help too. It's pretty easy to get caught up in the major battles looking around alot. I got both Steel Panthers but I didn't get the 3rd one. I messed with one of the variations and that was pretty neat. They have a new Panzer Elite I keep meaning to get but doing routes takes up alot of time. Some kind of Falcon variation is being talked about and that has got my attention too. It never ends does it?Thanks again!Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 10:58 PM (EST)

Well, with steel beasts, I generally try to manage as little as possible. I just develoop the overall plan at the start, then limit my role to one tank afterward, letting the computer actually handle most of the "big picture" operational stuff. Since the computer gunner tends to be somewhat innacurate with my precious ammo (especially if the laser rangefinder or ballistic computer is out), I like to aim the shots myself. Anyway, I'm currently waiting for Steel Beasts II, which will be released sometime next year. Not much info is available yet, but apparently you'll be able to command quite a few more tanks than just the M1A1 and the Leo 2A4.
Now for Steel Panthers MBT and Steel Panthers WWII: If you liked the earlier SP games, then I see no reason not to get SP: MBT, and SP: WWII, especially since they are free. They were developed by a group called SP Camo, to whom SSI freely released the source code for SP 2: Modern Battles. These two games feature many improvements to the SP 2 engine, including larger unit databases, more accurate equipment, and my favorite, actual deployment of paratroopers.EDIT: Although FPS games aren't usally my thing, one freeware game I have been having fun with lately is Amreica's Army. It is a tactical shooter co-developed by the US Army, so it quite accuratly depicts modern infantry warfare. There is much more stratergy to it than a standard FPS game, especially if you are in command of a squad. all of the "combat" missions are aqainst actual human players, so you must also have sharp reflexes. On top of that it has excellent graphics. Only downer is, it's a 650MB download, and it took me 3 hours on my cable modem... Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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Makes sense but I think England would have been the first landing for liberation or they would have had to gone through the med, don't you think? I know we're going off deep into speculation but had the Germans conquered England, I think bets would have been off for going in through France. It's hard to say since the invasion against N. Africa was launched from the US. So they could hit just about any where they wanted to providing they had the means to back it up. It changes the whole dynamic of what could've happen in the war because we would also to have to speculate the Luftwaffe remained at least somewhat intact. My guess is it would have been preferable to hit from the underbelly as they were already doing. Possibly a joint effort coming southward from Russia? I'm speculating that at some point Hitler invades Russia. I also think that either way, the war outcome is the same because without any Navy to speak of, the German army is still vulnerable to attack from any direction and to fortify all of England, Europe and to defense against Russia would have been impossible. Possibly, and this is more speculation, the US would have concentrated on defeating the Japanese first and then come from the east? Some speculate the US would sue for peace. I don't think so. I think the anger over Pearl Harbor would have kept the Americans going.I heard in a lecture one time that after a German defeat in N. Africa (El Alamein I believe), that Churchill concluded that Germany had lost the war. There's a book on Churchill I keep meaning to read. One of these days!Rich Garber

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It is very difficult to analize the various scenarios. What would have happened if Japan had declared war on Russia, (rather than America), at the same time that Germany did? Then you have Russia fighting on two fronts, and the USA out of the war altogether! At the time, U-boats were making their way to the US east coast, and sinking loads of oil tankers, and nearly all American cities still get all their lights on! Britain at one time had 30 days of food left in the Country, and would have had to capitulated, if the Anigma code had not been cracked.US submarines had a very poor record of sinking ships for nearly two years, before the detonators and settings were changed, (proximity settings were used, but they didn't work), so that they actually exploded! After that, the Japanes lost Marus at an alarming rate, which killed off nearly all of their supplies of oil, which was all imported. Would the USA have voluntarily entered the war? Hitler didn't think so, but Japan negated all that. For a current scenario, look at all the jobs being exported to the Orient: Hifi, cars, PCs, service centres etc. Where does that leave the West's workforce? Meanwhile directors in the US and Uk get billion dollar payoffs, even when they fail. Smells of corruption to me. David

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There is two schools of thought I have heard to what the Russians did in WW2. The first one is the norm you hear and that she did what she could to hang on until she could field armies better equipped with the newer tank variants coming out. The implication here is fortunately for Russia, there was a Russian winter that decimated the German army and as luck would have it, turns out their new play toys were more than capable of kicking butt. The second school of thought is Russia new exactly what it was in for, what it was doing, and fought delaying actions knowing the better equipment was further back waiting for more of the same equipment to be dispersed into the field. Either way Russia had a decent general in Zhukov and I think because of him Russia would have withstood a second front against the Japanese. The problem with the Japanese opening a second front is first, they'd be coming through some pretty rough terrain inwhich a small contingency could have defended the ground fairly well. And while the Japanese were very enthusiastic they were without any real armor to speak of. Their success against the heavier weaponry that Russia possessed would have been marginal. My guess is Japan would have had to bank on opening up some airfields for ground support pretty quick to remotely have a chance. Possibly the would try multiple invaision points but logistically that gets pretty tricky once the beachhead is established (got to feed the boys somehow).Initially the torpedoes used by the US in WW2 had a problem when hitting the sides of a ship straight on. However, while the tonnage sunk may have been much higher had there not been this problem, consider the following success of the US Submarine Fleet in WW2:"The United States Submarine Service in WW II saw action in both the Atlantic, in a very limited way, and in the Pacific in a major way. The Submarine Service accounted for about 55% of all Japanese tonnage sunk in the war. This was done by a branch of the Navy that accounted for about 1.6% of the Navy's wartime complement. The Japanese lost 1,178 Merchant Ships sunk for a tonnage total of 5,053,491 tons. The Navel losses were 214 ships and submarines totaling 577,626 tons. A staggering five million, six hundred thirty one thousand, one hundred seventeen tons, (5,631,117 tons), 1,392 ships. Japan ended the war with a bare 12% of her merchant fleet intact but not fuel at hand to run more than a few of them."My opinion on US getting into the war:The US wouldn't have entered the war voluntarily. And why should it have? This was the second time Europe got itself into a squabble. I dare say that within the late 30's, most Americans were probably still trying to figure out why they had gotten involved in the first conflict. Had it not been for sensationalistic events like the sinking of the Lusitania, the thought trend was the US would not have gotten involved in WW1. And isn't there still debate whether the ship was carring supplies in its hold? If so, then it was a lie that brought the US into the war. (actually there were a few other epidsodes worth reviewing but this is long already) So a second war erupts in Europe and here we go again. Americans decided, 'let's stay out of this.' But like the first war, the second war too had some horrid dealings inwhich it was good the US did get involved from hindsight. Rich Garber

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Just a quickie:Russia had to keep reserves in the East because of suspected Japanese aggression. After Japan atacked Pearl Harbour, they signed a peace deal with Russia, because they could not run two fronts either. Once that was settled, Russia moved all its forces to the West and overwhelmed the German forces which were already hit by the Russian winter. David

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"I heard in a lecture one time that after a German defeat in N. Africa (El Alamein I believe), that Churchill concluded that Germany had lost the war."I believe it's also been said that after Pearl Harbour, when the United Stated declared war on Japan, and of course the other Axis powers, Churchill poped open a bottle of champagne and said: "We just won the war..."Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-03 AT 10:27 PM (EST)

>C'mon guys! Call it what it is...a bullsh!t PR stunt! The
>emperor is buck nekkid. And you sir have a small Johnson IMO!>Oh and one more thing: Hitler also toured Paris! Notable
>exceptions: Hitler actually rode around in public in an
>open car...he didn't skulk in and out under a cloak of
>secrecy and darkness. So what are we to conclude from this?From the French?????
Surely you jest????
That's about the stupidest observation you've made yet?

BTW, a small taste of what would have happened if anyone had taken a pot shot at Hitler can be found in what the Nazis did to Czechoslovakia after the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich... And he was only 2nd or 3rd tier Nazi leadership.> That people in the rest of the world have a lower regard
>for shrub than for one of the most hated men in the 20th
>century and that he's more likely to face assassination
>attempts? Yep...real great leader you've picked for
>yourselves... That's the point! We picked him! He's our President not yours! Your opinion is worthless to us in that regard and is offensive to the majority of Americans! No matter what the high school drop out twits in Hollywood or the Mainstream Media would like to have you believe.BTW, I can tell from the way you changed the title that you've never been in harm's way!
When you are living on MREs or "Field Rations" you'll kill for a hot cooked meal even at 6am....
BTW, Ever hear of "Standing To before Dawn" ?
I tried to use the RN/RAF equivalent phrase so you could read one of your local comic books for a translation.Looser!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Chuck,
I can gar-on-teee that I would have stood to at 0600, 0200 or any other time the chowcall went up for a hot meal while I was in RVN. Hell, we didn't even have the MRE's! Ever try Chopped Ham and Eggs, cold, in the rain at 0300, because that's the first chance you'd had to chow-down all day? (Talk about Freudian slips, the first time I tried to type it, I got: 'Chopped Nam and Eggs!')

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.
Yahoo IM Name: mercer127 - MSN Messenger: oldrailfan1

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>Chuck,
>I can gar-on-teee that I would have stood to at 0600, 0200
>or any other time the chowcall went up for a hot meal while
>I was in RVN. Hell, we didn't even have the MRE's! Ever try
>Chopped Ham and Eggs, cold, in the rain at 0300, because
>that's the first chance you'd had to chow-down all day?
>(Talk about Freudian slips, the first time I tried to type
>it, I got: 'Chopped Nam and Eggs!') That's why I joined the Navy and not the Marines... LOL!
I saw your chow and decided that ours was better....
It actually got a lot better after I got into Pig-Boats....
Green Eggs and Ham to the contrary.. As OIC of an ATCU (Air Transportable Comm Unit) later in my career I had the opportunity to "live in the field" with the Grunts... Albeit as a REMF! You can have my share of that! I have nothing but admiration for those guys... Even though I enjoy kidding the Krap out of them...
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 02:22 PM (EST)

Wrong grunt, Chief! I weren't no sea-going bellhop! They wouldn't let me in, I knew it wasn't spelled marnies. (Bet that starts something!! )ADDED: Ah, but I see you knew where Dr Suess got his ideas!

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.
Yahoo IM Name: mercer127 - MSN Messenger: oldrailfan1

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To a Swab Jockey it's Grunt Asterisk!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Chuck
"When you are living on MREs or "Field Rations" you'll kill for a hot cooked meal even at 6am.... "It did my heart good as I got up bright and early Thanksgiving morning(Force of habit,workday) and flipped on the tube to get the news and seeing a story on the troops getting T-Day dinner with one fellow that I swear had probably been on MRE's for the last two weeks as his plate was stacked up about six inches high and completely covered.
Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Guys,
You know something we forgot in the 6AM sub-thread?
We were watching this on the morning of Thanksgiving, about four hours after it happened, so we've been calling it at 6AM. But there's an 8 hour time difference, so this would have been happening about 1400local or later in Iraq! I just got my Time mag today, (it's a freebie, I wouldn't waste money on that liberal s**t) and they confirm it at about that time.

JOhn
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Read my response in message #72. Quoted from Mike Allen one of the reporters in the press pool that was there.Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-03 AT 08:07 AM (EST)

Rich,
You caught it, but I didn't 'til I read about it in Time; or more correctly, I hadn't really correlated it until then. So who was it here that started the 6AM B.S. anyway?ADDED: Went back up the thread to the start of the 6AM part - it was Robber Baron. He was quoting a piece of anti-Bush Propaganda titled "Wag the Turkey" that he linked to. Too bad that writer couldn't get his facts straight. At least Time was honest on the timing of Mr. Bush's visit.
Elsewhere, I asked if Billary was there at the same time. Time Magazine reports that she didn't get there 'til Friday, so whether planned that way or not her visit looks like a "Me-too!"ADDED2: Both writers that Robber Baron quotes are known Bush-haters, so take what they have to say with a 'grain of salt.' The fact is: Bush wasn't there to tour Iraq or Baghdad! He was there for one reason. To have dinner with, and show support for, the troops! Why should he have left U.S. controlled areas? The same argument applies to the nay-saying Time reporters and the Iraqi citizens.

JOhn
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This is a long thread! When I first saw RB's post I thought it was worth ignoring but since I could get the news source I copied it into the thread and he never returned so maybe he was just someone trying to stir things up. I've seen him post before in the other forums, I'm sure he's an alright guy. The Hitler remark did spawn an interesting discussion though.Fox came up with a pretty interesting news article too.http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104523,00.htmlI had a bit difficulty swollowing the assumptions of this piece but who knows? I do think that politics has become incredibly harsh. At the rate it has gotten harsher, I expect dueling pistols to become common in Congress. Now wouldn't that be neat to watch on Cspan!?Personally, I'd rather watch a train video. Rich Garber

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>...I expect dueling pistols to become common in Congress...Seems to me, there was a "punch-out" in a committee meeting recently, and Capitol Police had to be called. YOu may be more right than you think.

JOhn
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This has degenerated into a long thread far from the original subject, which, in itself, was Off-Topic.Perhaps it is time we wind it up and go on to another subject/thread, but I'd like to add these notes first:In Message #18, duncharris notes "...futile, pointless and illegal colonial expedition." Futile? Time will tell, but the coalition forces seem to be accomplishing their stated objections. Pointless? No - S.Hussein has been removed from power, the original and primary point. Illegal? Only in the eyes of the whimps in the UN Security Council. Our President and your Prime Minister had and have the authorization of their respective legislative bodies to conduct this war. Colonial? I will remind you of Colin Powell's response to that word last Spring in London: "How many times have we been over here? And the only land we have ever asked for is a place to bury our dead." Do you think it will be any different in Iraq? Please quit listening to the socialists and start thinking for yourself!In various messages, including #10 by boweavel, #71 by Robber Baron, and #90 johu107, the phrase "Publicity Stunt" is bandied about. If this had been planned as a publicity stunt, the Press Secretary, et al., would have been trumpeting it for weeks in advance instead of no announcements; only to cancel it at the last second because of "serious threats to the President's safety" or some such excuse. No, the CinC made an honest gesture to the troops in the field, not some "publicity Stunt," and pulled it off very well, by the way.
Several other messages in the thread mentioned Hitler visiting Paris...please remember that Hitler only went to Paris after the total capitulation by the French, when the city was completely under the heel of the Wehrmacht.In Message #64, DTA writes: "...as a UK citizen, I am not allowed to have a gun, but kitchen utensils are legal..." Son, you better look around at your country. There several cases where citizen victims are being hounded and penalized by the British courts for exactly that attitude. You folks are just supposed to lay down and die for the pukes. I'm glad I live here in the US where, if necessary, I can respond like Gary did, without fear of reprisal by the police and courts.
Along that line, in Message #44, baldwinbob included several of the standard arguments used by the gun-controllers, including "What if there had been more than one?" "What if you had missed?" "What if your gun had misfired?" "What if he had been armed?"
That's why I say: "Let me have weapons with the highest possible ammunition capacity." Firearms don't misfire unless they are abused or not maintained, and if you have more than one round, more than one attacker or a first miss just doesn't matter that much. Robert Heinlein, as Lazarus long, noted: "Get the first round off fast. The noise will disorient your opponent long enough for you to aim the second shot!" That's especially true with a .45ACP.
Again, do you think a victim just lay down and die rather than try to defend himself? Be honest, would you? If so, I feel sorry for you. I will never accept the argument that a woman who has been raped and strangled with her own pantyhose is morally superior to the woman explaining to a police officer how those bullet holes got into her attacker's chest.

JOhn
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Amen Brother John Amen!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Nothing like going where you aren't wanted. From a recent news posting."U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton forced U.S. troops stationed at Bagram air base in Afghanistan to wait for their Thanksgiving dinner last Thursday, while she and her entourage arrived late, then cut in line and were served first.""Once she got there," our source maintains, "Clinton and her entourage bumped everyone in line, forcing them to wait almost an extra hour.""The brass at Bagram apparently had a hard time rounding up New Yorkers who wanted to have dinner with Clinton, D-N.Y. Only six GIs responded to an e-mail sent out last week that stated, "Looking for military members from New York and Rhode Island interested in meeting their Senator/Congressman."""After Clinton and her entourage departed, the only topics GIs wanted to talk about were "how great the food was and how fantastic they thought George Bush's visit to Iraq was.""Question:
How come this isn't a publicity stunt?This only goes to prove the newest axiom in life... if a tree falls in the forest and a liberal isn't there to hear it, it didn't happen.Translated means: Publicity stunts only happen when the 'other' side does it.Rich Garber

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>Nothing like going where you aren't wanted. From a recent
>news posting.
>
>"U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton forced U.S. troops stationed at
>Bagram air base in Afghanistan to wait for their
>Thanksgiving dinner last Thursday, while she and her
>entourage arrived late, then cut in line and were served
>first."
>
>"Once she got there," our source maintains, "Clinton and her
>entourage bumped everyone in line, forcing them to wait
>almost an extra hour."
>
>"The brass at Bagram apparently had a hard time rounding up
>New Yorkers who wanted to have dinner with Clinton, D-N.Y.
>Only six GIs responded to an e-mail sent out last week that
>stated, "Looking for military members from New York and
>Rhode Island interested in meeting their
>Senator/Congressman.""
>
>"After Clinton and her entourage departed, the only topics
>GIs wanted to talk about were "how great the food was and
>how fantastic they thought George Bush's visit to Iraq
>was.""
>
>Question:
>How come this isn't a publicity stunt?
>
>This only goes to prove the newest axiom in life... if a
>tree falls in the forest and a liberal isn't there to hear
>it, it didn't happen.
>
>Translated means: Publicity stunts only happen when the
>'other' side does it.
>
>Rich Garber Hey Rich this is scary I just agreed with you, again!Breakfast with Billary? I think not! Especially as a GI...Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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i hadn't heard of that one yet. that would be an example of a poorly executed publicity stunt to get re-elected instead of Bush's well planned one. i still stick to my opinion that it was a publicity stunt and just because it wasn't announced weeks in advance doesn't mean it wasn't a publicity stunt. It would be stupid to announce it weeks in advance because it wouldn't have had as big as an effect as it would if it seemed to be a spontaneous thing. honestly though I don't really care it was a PR stunt cause that just seems to be a part of getting re-elected and everyone does it so there's no point in arguing about it i suppose. joe

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 02:26 PM (EST)

>Breakfast with Billary? I think not! Especially as a GI...
NO THANKS!!!! When I got a chance to eat, I didn't want to lose it again! Typical, George helps serve, The Witch bumps line... bet that made her real popular!ADDED: By the way, What is the timeline on Billary's visit, I thought they were over there about the same time. Did she pull a "me too?"

JOhn
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John
No the Hildebeast had this trip planned as she needed some vid footage of her kissing some camo covered rearend in order to maintain some degree of viability in 08,though I'd have loved to have seen her face when word got out that ol Dubbya beat her at her own game(and got a much warmer response)Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Does anybody here remember "K Rations" and the "Brown Boot Army" or am I really an "Old Cumudgeon" with a long memory? :-(

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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I'm 15 and I have actually heard of both terms. I learned a lot reading Tom Brokaw's Greatest Generation book. Next war book I'm thiking of reading is Stephen Ambrose's "The Wild Blue" which is about the B-24s, which is what my grandfather flew in WWII over Germany.

-----------------------------

Kyle Norek, Milepost 76 on the NS Buffalo Line
MSN Messenger: crsd40@hotmail.com

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I missed the brown boots by about 4 years (so I'm told) and my Dad brought K-Rats home from Port Layauty(sp?) Morocco when he came home from the war. (He was a Naval Aviator, but I guess things were primitive in Morocco)

JOhn
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To ALL you Gentlemen who have contributed to this thread please accept my THANKS. The WW2 military history aspect of the thread was most interesting! Whether the contributors are Pro/Con Mr. Bush, the Iraqi war, an American citizen or not the dialog was great!

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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Agreed! It's been very... very... and I mean... VERY... surprising that the rhetoric has been kept fairly decent. This thread for me has been too addicting. So much so, I'm not getting anything done! Kudos to Don, Jon and Kevin and others for a most interesting WW2 thread.Rich G

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And finally we have the news in the UK press, that the turkey presented by Bush, was a plastic one! LOL! I think the sceptics win this thread. To be honest, all politicians I have been aware of have all done the same. Bush ratings up to 60% now all due to a large lump of plastic!David

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>And finally we have the news in the UK press, that the
>turkey presented by Bush, was a plastic one! LOL! Funny, If anyone has a ax to grind with Bush, it's Time Magazine, and they made no such report...load a link to your information so we can see! Sounds like the same bunch that tried to say he was there at 0600 local, when it was more like 1500.

JOhn
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David
In all honesty do you really think Dubbya is so stupid that he doesn't realize he's picked up a plastic centerpiece?
From several emails reported from several of the troops over there(published with their and their families permission) Dubbya spent a good amount of time meeting with the soldiers,shaking hands and posing for pictures,he may have been simply mugging for the camera when that shot was snapped.
The plastic turkeygate scandal was simply the one thing that those in the media with a major case of sour grapes could throw out as a "See!We told you Bush lies all the time" when faced with the truth that that "dumba$$ cowboy" had pulled a fast one on them.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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>>>the turkey presented by Bush, was a plastic one<<<Damn, sure made my mouth water. >>>To be honest, all politicians I have been aware of have all done the same.<<<Yes they have and always will, looks good.If we could only have politicians who would do what is good for the country instead of doing what will get them re-elected, country (deficit) be damned, I'd die a happy man. It's our kids and grand kids who will have to pay for all this.Bob

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...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-03 AT 03:11 PM (EST)

For the sceptics above see:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F12%2F05%2Fwspin05.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=19522nd article down.David

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-03 AT 05:04 PM (EST)

Nice Objective Yellow Journalism...
The kind the Telegraph is famous for IIRC...
For the rest of the Yanquis on here who have not had the pleasure of traveling in the UK, the Telegraph is London's answer to the National Inquirer. Great headlines like "Elvis (oops in the UK it would be John Lennon) abducted by space aliens and has a 3 headed baby by c-section!"Kinda Along the lines of;"When did you stop beating your wife?"Sheesh, give it a rest!We don't give a big rat's ass what all the socialists in Europe think of us or George Bush for that matter! Quit killing electrons and wasting bandwidth trying to "convert" us!
There is a reason we emigrated over here.You guys are getting as bad as the Trainz Evangelists!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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ROFLMAO! The Telegraph is the leading rightwing broadsheet in the UKYou know absolutely squit about UK newspapers.More info:http://tvh.rjwest.com/archives/003133.htmlhttp://www.sfbctc.org/opening.htmSo it is not just UK reporting thisWho cares!David

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I think that's perfect - Plastic bird served by the plastic president. Don't let the right wingers get you down, David. The world has managed to carry on despite them for a long time. As for them bashing the Telegraph, consider their "bible", CNN and Fox. Now they have the most fragrently biased "news" I've ever had the misfortune to see. Now the happiest thought is in just eleven months the people of the US can elect a Democrat instead of the demagogue they have now. Let's hope they don't waste the opportunity. cheers,
Ernie

It's good to be a snake in the grass...

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Now the
>happiest thought is in just eleven months the people of the
>US can elect a Democrat instead of the demagogue they have
>now. Let's hope they don't waste the opportunity.
I know I'm voting for the Democrat ticket.

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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##### Sean when did you get old enough to vote?
Now I'm gonna have to go out and "dig up" some more old folks to negate your vote! Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-03 AT 00:17 AM (EST)

>##### Sean when did you get old enough to vote?
>Now I'm gonna have to go out and "dig up" some more old
>folks to negate your vote! LOL, I'm 19 Chuck . Hey get all the old people you want, but it the eletroial college that decides who becomes President. Remeber when Gore won the popular vote, but Shurbbury (Hey if you use Billary than I can use Shurburry) "won" the electorial college?

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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Once again, I am reminded...
"If , at 20 a man is not a liberal, he has no heart,
at 40 if he is not a conservative, he has no brain..."
variously attributed to Churchill, Disreali, and others

JOhn
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-03 AT 02:18 AM (EST)

>Now they have the most
>fragrently biased "news" I've ever had the misfortune to see.You must be thinking of CBS (though Fox isn't far behind).Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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Why should you care? You're a canadian.
>I think that's perfect - Plastic bird served by the plastic
>president. Don't let the right wingers get you down, David.
> The world has managed to carry on despite them for a long
>time. As for them bashing the Telegraph, consider their
>"bible", CNN and Fox. Now they have the most fragrently
>biased "news" I've ever had the misfortune to see. Now the
>happiest thought is in just eleven months the people of the
>US can elect a Democrat instead of the demagogue they have
>now. Let's hope they don't waste the opportunity.
>
> cheers,
> Ernie

-----------------------------

Kyle Norek, Milepost 76 on the NS Buffalo Line
MSN Messenger: crsd40@hotmail.com

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Why should he not care? His country shares over 2 thousand miles of border with the U.S. Canada is our largest trading partner and what ever we do here in the States has a direct effect on the Canadian economy! And if your memory isn't to short you might remember that the Canadian military have fought by our side in all of the major armed conflicts of the 20th Century. If we can learn anything from our Canadian neighbors it is the fine art of civility!

Best Regards...Don Shepley

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Ernie"As for them bashing the Telegraph, consider their "bible", CNN and Fox. Now they have the most fragrently biased "news" I've ever had the misfortune to see."Which one is it? CNN is hardly known for their right wing slant(they didn't pick up the name Clinton News Network for nothing)CNN,MS-NBC,ABC,NBC,CBS,PBS all lean heavily to the left,as far as Fox goes it is for the most part,as the line goes "Fair and Balanced" in reporting (from what I've seen)and a bit more to the right in their opinion shows.
That's why I just love Howard Dean talking about as President he'd appoint people to the FCC to regulate Fox(and one would assume talk radio)because democracy requires all sides be heard and also why I love these liberals talking about how they need to start this "Liberal Talk Radio Network",excuse me but aside from the above mentioned TV networks the liberals have NPR,the LA Times,Chicgo Tribune,NY Times(many other papers too numerous to list)Time,Newsweek,basicaly they are the media and yet they complain about Fox News and talk radio and the their inabilaty to get their message heard.
Could the fact be that after they got their behinds handed to them in the 02 midterms because they ran hard and fast to the left that the American public has heard their message loud and clear and rejected it?Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Very true Gary, but you'll have to admit, none of those networks you mentioned lean as far to the left as CBS. As for Fox, they lean to the right, unlike the others you mentioned, but they can be every bit as biased in their own way...Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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all news organizations are biased, thats no big secret. the thing you have to remember is that they all consist of people who all have there own opinions on politics so its only natural for news to be biased. me personally, i don't watch much of fox or cnn because i can't stand picking through the pointless stories that they seem to concern themselves with, i usually stick to foreign news agencies so i at least know whats going on elsewhere in the world, though i think you have to get your news from as many sources as possible to get an accurate picture. as for the implication that if your canadian you shouldn't be concerned with whats going on in the U.S., considering that Canada isn't that far away from the U.S. and since the U.S. concerns itself with other countries business, what goes on here becomes the world's business and concern. joe

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-03 AT 11:33 PM (EST)

>You know absolutely squit about UK newspapers.
>Well I guess that settles it!
Proof positive I know about as much about UK newspapers as you do about US politics!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>>>Proof positive I know about as much about UK newspapers as you do about US politics!<<<It might be better if the rest of the world didn't know the goings on of our political machine.The donkeys and the elephants have reached a new low……Eighty-nine Republicans are co-sponsoring the bill introduced in response to the television mini-series "The Reagans," which one bill sponsor described as "a wildly sophomoric polemic aimed at tarnishing the reputation of our 40th president and his devoted wife."

Mrs. Reagan’s response:"While I can understand the intentions of those seeking to place my husband's face on the dime, I do not support this proposal and I am certain Ronnie would not. When our country chooses to honor a great president such as Franklin Roosevelt by placing his likeness on our currency, it would be wrong to remove him and replace him with another.

Lets hear the arguments from both sides:McGovern argued Roosevelt belongs on the dime because he inspired the March of Dimes effort to stamp out polio after the U.S. mint put the crippled president on the dime in 1946.And Souder said, "It is particularly fitting to honor the freedom president on this particular piece of coinage" because he was "wounded under the left arm by a bullet that had ricocheted and flattened to the size of a dime."

Well……………I’m just speechless. Pissed off about a movie so they want to remove FDR from the dime.This, ladies and gentlemen, is what our government is doing whilst the red ink is piling up way past the eyeballs.If I had a gun I’d give it to the dog and tell him to shoot me so I wouldn’t have to witness such BS.Have a nice day,Bob and O’Riley

---------
...the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself.

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Isn't it, "You don't know squat"? Or do you have to "squat" to "squit". I am not finding "squit" in the dictionary so I am not sure if this is a local thing, a cultural thing, or a spelling thing (thang?). Anyway, today is the 7th of December and that should give us pause to remember a hard lesson as to why we keep our powder dry. As for digging up dead people to vote, that is a Democrat exclusive. Lyndon B. Johnson won all of the cemetary vote in Duval County, Texas to be the jr. senator. What is funny is upon Johnson's elevation to the Vice Presidency, his seat was taken by John Tower, the first Republican since Reconstruction! Bush is doing a good job defending the Constitution of the United States of America and will be reelected. The Democrat Party has neither a leader nor a vision, only attack dogs. Basically, just like the Republicans before Clinton's reelection. This guy Dean is George McGovern reborn! I sure hope he is the Democrat standard bearer, he sort of looks like Dukakis!Now, lets get back to trains.

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Chuck
In David's defense,Turkeygate was launched by one our very own newsweasels,at the AP but I can't remember who(this flu bug's got me real fuzzy)that was desperate to find some way to delegitimize Dubbya's class act.David
Having just read that newslink,even as woozy with the flu as I am you've got to admit there's a very distinct slant to the left in that story,from the certain key lines highlighted to the 2001 photo that looks like the turkey is doing something rudeGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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I seem to remember a similar photo of a dog with President Clinton!These days any sort of photo can be set up, so who knows what is real or not.David

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-03 AT 09:56 PM (EST)

We need to mark this one up as a Publicity Stunt. In other news, Shurburry wants to go back to the moon and put a moon base on. Has anyone heard about this?

Sean Summer AKA Poltergeist
"The voices, the voices, I hear them, they're with me, so I follow I follow..." ~Eminem's "Guilty Conscious"

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Of course for that specific moment he was mugging for the camera. Fox News showed the video segment, which also shows him behind the steam table serving the regular meal to all of the troops. For people to be fixating on one single moment as if that is all that happened is pathetic and it does not remove one ounce of the meaning and significance of his actions. Get over it.

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Y'know, you've put your finger on the one thing, above all else, that made this trip a gesture of the very highest class: *HE* served *THEM*, and on their own turf, no less. All this time I've been trying to figure out what so set this apart from other trips by other politicians, either before or after, and you've pointed out that it was there, in plain sight, in front of the whole world. In the entire half-century I've lived, I don't think I've ever seen such a gesture, apart from maybe in a religious order here or there. Thanks kindly... -Phil

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>Y'know, you've put your finger on the one thing, above all
>else, that made this trip a gesture of the very highest
>class: *HE* served *THEM*, and on their own turf, no less.
>All this time I've been trying to figure out what so set
>this apart from other trips by other politicians, either
>before or after, and you've pointed out that it was there,
>in plain sight, in front of the whole world. In the entire
>half-century I've lived, I don't think I've ever seen such a
>gesture, apart from maybe in a religious order here or
>there. Thanks kindly... -Phil Contrasted with Billary cutting in line in Afghanistan at the same time. Now THAT was a real class act!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>Contrasted with Billary cutting in line in Afghanistan at the same time. Now THAT was a real class act!
>
>
>Chuck Schneider
>(Virtual) CEO
>North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works I heard she did it in Afghanistan on Thursday, and again in Bagram Iraq on Friday...not just for herself, but for her whole entourage!
(And they wonder why we Doubting Thomases call her, among less polite remarks, "Queen Hillary")

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.
Yahoo IM Name: mercer127 - MSN Messenger: oldrailfan1

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