Northeast US Power Outage

Looks like NYC and several other cities are without power..<http://www.newsday.com/ny-outage0814,0,7193237.story?coll=ny-top-span-headlines>What a day to be on a subway...

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RE: Northeast US Power Outage, rdamon, Aug-14-03, 05:18 PM, (1) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, P42number1, Aug-14-03, 05:47 PM, (2) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, Baldwinbob, Aug-14-03, 06:40 PM, (3) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, sniper297, Aug-15-03, 02:15 AM, (4) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CPR_Malice_96th, Aug-15-03, 03:34 AM, (6) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, IcyFire, Aug-15-03, 03:18 AM, (5) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, bnsf1959, Aug-15-03, 03:55 AM, (7) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, IcyFire, Aug-15-03, 04:11 AM, (8) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, JonN, Aug-15-03, 10:17 AM, (9) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, John 136 6000 GO, Aug-17-03, 02:00 AM, (31) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, JonN, Aug-17-03, 02:32 AM, (32) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CPR_Malice_96th, Aug-15-03, 10:30 AM, (10) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, sniper297, Aug-15-03, 11:10 AM, (11) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CGW409, Aug-15-03, 07:28 PM, (18) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, Grimace780, Aug-17-03, 05:15 PM, (38) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CGW409, Aug-18-03, 06:46 PM, (43) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, sstyrnol, Aug-15-03, 11:53 AM, (13) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, rdamon, Aug-15-03, 09:08 PM, (20) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, kro52, Aug-15-03, 11:23 AM, (12) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, BNSF4723, Aug-15-03, 01:38 PM, (14) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CRSD40, Aug-15-03, 01:55 PM, (15) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, Thunderbolt3985, Aug-15-03, 03:59 PM, (16) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, Texas Eagle 550, Aug-15-03, 04:57 PM, (17) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, csxrules, Aug-15-03, 08:31 PM, (19) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, OTTODAD, Aug-16-03, 09:16 AM, (21) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, LARKIE, Aug-16-03, 10:26 AM, (22) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, OTTODAD, Aug-16-03, 12:37 PM, (25) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, chucksc, Aug-17-03, 10:11 AM, (33) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, LARKIE, Aug-17-03, 12:09 PM, (34) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, chucksc, Aug-17-03, 12:34 PM, (37) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CGW409, Aug-18-03, 06:35 PM, (42) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, rdamon, Aug-16-03, 10:44 AM, (23) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CGW409, Aug-16-03, 12:07 PM, (24) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, thomil, Aug-16-03, 03:52 PM, (26) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CGW409, Aug-17-03, 12:13 PM, (35) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, Lone_Gunman_SG, Aug-16-03, 04:32 PM, (27) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, OTTODAD, Aug-16-03, 06:45 PM, (28) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, sniper297, Aug-16-03, 07:22 PM, (29) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, CGW409, Aug-17-03, 12:30 PM, (36) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, OTTODAD, Aug-18-03, 07:52 AM, (39) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, LARKIE, Aug-18-03, 08:48 AM, (40) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, Ohara, Aug-18-03, 05:24 PM, (41) RE: Northeast US Power Outage, Lone_Gunman_SG, Aug-16-03, 07:47 PM, (30)

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CNN.com has been updated<http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/14/power.outage/index.html>

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Ahhh! I'd hate to be on the subway...

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Oh, can't be that bad. 800 people in a little tube....90+ degrees.....sweat oozing from every pore....you may be right.That has to be the biggest traffic jam I've ever seen.

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Didn't affect Chicago. *bzzzzzt!*Damn, had to open my mouth.

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>Didn't affect Chicago. *bzzzzzt!*
>
>Damn, had to open my mouth.
Alright...............................Did I miss whatever that route is you have there sniper ??LaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This outage was bull crap!!!!!!!!!!! I sat 11 hours with no fridge, all my food is probably spoiled, The grid is not supposed to do that, I want answers, and i want them now damn it! *goes off to wring someone's neck!*

Shawn Kenselaar, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Train-Sim Forum Mod; Texture Artist for TKW & YLW
MP 96.93 on the NYO&W Port Jervis Branch

Gravy Intermodal, because the Gravy Train and Gravy Boat are outdated!

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Happy to see you back! I'm sure some of us was wondering about you. I would like to know what or who's the culprit behind the massive power outage. Glad to see ya back, thou. Ken

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Thanks Ken, I'm glad to be back too, I was having strange symptoms with out my vitamin F (for Forum!)

Shawn Kenselaar, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Train-Sim Forum Mod; Texture Artist for TKW & YLW
MP 96.93 on the NYO&W Port Jervis Branch

Gravy Intermodal, because the Gravy Train and Gravy Boat are outdated!

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-03 AT 10:22 AM (EDT)

It hit southern Ontario as well, and the blackout stretched all the way from Sudbury, to Windsor, to Ottawa. The lights were out in Whitby for only 11 hours (16:00 to 05:00), but there are still warnings not to consume too much power for fear of overloading the system again, so that means no A/C. It's going to be really hot today!
Well, it's a good thing my computer's power runs through a UPS surge protector, because I was using it when the power went off. If I didn't have that 5 minutes of battery power, then I would have lost alot of work.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-03 AT 02:03 AM (EDT)

Hi Jon,I don't know about your home, of course, but the parts of Whitby I know had no power for over 24 hours. My home, and the areas around it, got power back about 6:00pm, and over on Thickson road, I spent the night watching over a gas-station with no power (just started a job at a gas station doing the night shift - 10pm to 8 am) and keeping an eye on the travellers who had stopped in our parking lot rather than risk going on when very short of gas. At about 5am I chatted with a lady who had been there since 5:30 the previous evening. In one car, one of the occupant laid out some bedding and slept right on the asphalt. I hear they got their power back about 6:00pm, similar time to my home. BTW, I live very close to Lake Ontario (great for quick cooling swim), in the S.W. corner of Whitby near Lynde Shore Conservation Area.Taking this back to a railway theme. On my way in to work for the night shift, I had a quick look at the CN line where it crosses Blair Street South. There'a a set of signals just west of there which are easy to see. They were working, with one green light (top signal for the north track) but I didn't have time to wait for the train to come. When I went home about 8 am, those signals were all dark, but I had been hearing the trains from time to time during the night.CheersJohn

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-03 AT 02:33 AM (EDT)

Well John, we live on opposite sides of town, so our homes could be in different sectors of the overall grid.
Anyway, I forgot to mention this earlier: Immediately after the outage, I went out on my bike out to D'Hillier park, and was just in time to see an auto/auto parts train pull through. No sooner had it passed the Lynde Creek trestle, then it stopped abruptly, and backed onto the loop siding. The crew shut down the locos, and they were left there until the next day. I don't know if this has anything to do with the blackout, because I heard at least three trains roll through during the outage.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-03 AT 10:30 AM (EDT)

>I would like to know what or who's the culprit
>behind the massive power outage. BLAME CANADA !!LaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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"Wag the Dog"? Does this mean you guys are getting ready to invade? At least turn the juice back on for a few minutes so I can get ready, my hair is still up in curlers.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID15/1814.htmlThat's the route, Chris Cyko's Chicago Elevated Railways, compatible with the standardized tsection.dat file this time. Only partially done, but requires mucho heavy computer horsepower. Maybe that's what killed the power grid, lot of computers trying to run the Chicago EL at the same time overloaded the generators.BLAME ELVIS !!

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-03 AT 07:29 PM (EDT)

Tim
Canada is safely off the hook, The Hildebeast has been all over the media telling anyone who'll listen that it's all W's fault(big surprise) for privatizing electric utilities(news to me as I thought the majority of utility companies were private concerns to begin with)and how for 21/2 years a bill to remedy the situation has been tied up in congress(of course it's now being noted that it's her party draging their feet on said bill)What no one wishes to acknowlege is the dirty little secret that the grid system is like an interstate and if you keep feeding more and more feeder roads to that interstate you eventualy get gridlock.
But try to build more transmission lines (or heaven forfend) more power plants you get NIMBYs coming out of the wood work to complain and then the enviro loons get a judge to block construction because the lines(or plant or pipeline etc) will harm the habitat of the ringtailed flatulent purple chipmunkGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Right. You should go talk to the Mayor of New York City. That was his first comment. Blame Canada. Stupid move for a politition but I never said politicians were smart.

Nope. Sorry. The latest I heard was the problem started in Ohio. (The state that is round on the ends and 'hi' in the middle.)Seriously though, perhaps more attention should be focused on how we can fix the problem rather than trying to figure out who to blame.Gary
p.s. When it comes to telecommunications technology, Alberta Canada is the North American leader.

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Gary
Got that right,When Bloomberg thought it might have been a NYC powerplant that blew out the system,he went into full CYA mode and started tossing blame as far away as he could.
I loved Pitaki's(SP? the gov in NY)comment of "they promised this would never again happen after 65", Hey gov how about the fact the system .....HAS NOT BEEN FREAKIN UPDATED IN , OH SAY, 38 FREAKIN YEARS!!!! duh.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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You wanna know what is the reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????? We all are the reason... Our way of living is the reason! Our stinking comfortable homes with air condition and stuff.... That is the reason! We are going to blow this planet to hell...Sorry, I had to say that!Cheers!Sebastian

Feel free to IM me on: sstyrnol@hotmail.com
My email is: sebastian.styrnol@gmx.de

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I guess you should turn off your computer to become part of the solution, not the problem I do not think they have placed the cause of this blackout on too much load..

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I think we hit that 9500 number and the grid couldn't handle it ! KRO52

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I just got back on now in East Hamilton. At about 1:25. It caused lots of problems and I'm sure it'll be shut off again soon but I'm just trying to do what I can do while its still on. Strange thing is though that there were houses right behind us that got their power about 2 hours before us at least. Man they wire these things weirdly.Looks Like a Pony RUNS LIKE A STALLION

"I just want real reactions. I want people to laugh from the gut, be sad from the gut, or get angry from the gut." Andy Kaufman

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Out for about 4 hours here, no food loss here cause we've got a generator

-----------------------------

Kyle Norek, Milepost 76 on the NS Buffalo Line
MSN Messenger: crsd40@hotmail.com

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We should blame Con-Edison for their *flips through Thesaurus* aged, ancient, broken down, inefficient, faulty system that's been around since who knows?

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Finally Power Came back to my House. It has been about 12 hours and none of my food got spoiled. Great to Be BackChris
Projects:
Santa Fe Needles Sub:20% done
Santa Fe La Junta Sub:10% done

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Well i just got power back and its been 24 hrs since it has gone out. Our great power company over here still has about 1.8 million people with out power. DTE (detroit edison) has screwed almost everything up this year. First it was an ice storm then it was this blackout. Whats next????

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The main problem is that since many Utility Corporations went PRIVATE or PUBLIC not enough money is being invested in forward looking projects until after the event and even then not always.We get a lot of it here in the U.K. with Privatised Railway Infrastructure companies and Train Operators, Motorway and Roads Building, Telecoms still using copper cable and other Utilities being behind the times. You name it and you will find insufficient investment everywhere.Businesses with shareholders and their executives getting paid a fortune for doing little other than to make profits at the expense of their suffering customers and the public in general are the norm. Not enough is being re-invested by them in long term projects producing no immediate profit ! If they don't mis-represent their accounts in the first place !And what about Global Warming ? Air-conditioning systems all over the world are doing Overtime, if they themselves have not broken down under the strain like here in the U.K., having had the hottest day in History last week ! Use more fossil fuel to produce more power, adding to the existing carbon dioxide emission problem ?Something has got to be done about that soon or we all are going to fry before long, rising sea levels flooding many low-lying parts of the world. But who is going to pay for it ?What was all this talk by George Bush in his last "Address to the Nation" about, using HYDROGEN for fuel ? There is enough of it in Water which could be used in Power-stations and by other heavy Fossil Fuel users for a start ! Trouble is, certain Oil producers and refineries would not like that very much, being deprived of income to buy more arms, explosives and other goods, which after all does benefit the West's Economies as well, giving Terrorists even more reason to gripe about something and blow us all to bits !What a crazy world we all live in ! O t t o

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I agree with nearly all you say Otto,especially as applied to the UK,but the mass bought hydrogen powered vehicle is pie in the sky,as is the mass bought electric vehicle at the moment.An electric vehicle requires a power station to "fuel" it.Where does the hydrogen come from?By electrolysing it from water,using electricity.Where does the electricity come from?the power stations.But for the laws of thermodynamics,you're nearly onto a perpetual motion machine there.Hydrogen fuels the power station,then the power station electrolyses more fuel...Even using "Browns' Gas",(the hydrogen\oxygen gas mixture produced by the electrolysis of the water),the energy used in producing it,is greater than the energy produced by burning it.Under those conditions,it's more efficient to burn a fossil fuel directly in say a diesel engine,with heat recovery(combined heat and power)80+% fuel efficient,than convert water to hydrogen gas,using steam(includes nuclear producers) turbines which are 40% fuel efficient at producing electricity.The only way,at present to really get a "green" hydrogen fuel,is to use solar or wind\wave power,and ultimately clean nuclear fusion to supply the energy needed for the electrolysis.Nuclear fusion is the fusing of hydrogen isotopes to helium,and would provide clean energy,with no long term harmful radiation.For example, 10 grams of Deuterium which can be extracted from 500 litres of water and 15g of Tritium produced from 30g of Lithium would produce enough fuel for the lifetime electricity needs of an average person in an industrialised country.

PS The "Niagara Mohawk" grid said to have failed,is owned by the UK company "National Grid".

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> PS The "Niagara Mohawk" grid said to have failed, is owned by
> the UK company "National Grid". Seem to remember a program on TV a while back, about this USA inventor who got a patent for a water based hydrogen fuelled system running a car, the patent allegedly having been bought by NASA ? Burning of the Hydrogen producing more water. The first to come up with an economical method to get Hydrogen out of water in quantities is going to be very unpopular in the Middle East and other Oil producing regions ! Could it be that it is already possible and one of them owns the patent, having paid a lot of money for it ?Like the guy who found a way to stop your beard growing, the patent for it locked up in one of the major razor blades or shavers manufacturers vaults ? But the thinning of the OZONE layer and accumulation of Carbon Dioxide up there, also added to by less of it being converted back to Oxygen by diminishing Forests, cut down or burned, as seems to happen more and more frequently in the case of the latter because of the changing climate and more dry spells everywhere, is definitively adding to the GREENHOUSE effect.A never-ending vicious circle !O t t o

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Jayzees Guys, enough with the Junk Science you're giving me a headache!!!!Every 60k years or so the world goes through a "warming cycle" that melts significant parts of the ice caps... That's a scientific fact!
The thinning of the Ozone layer is also a naturally occurring phenomena according to a significant portion of the scientific community.
The "natives" using slash and burn agriculture in Brazil destroy 10x the trees in the Amazon Basin then we use for houses up here and they don't replace the trees in Brazil like we do in the Pacific Northwest.
India, China and Malaysia to name just 3 produce over 5 times the atmospheric pollutants then the rest of the civilized world...
If everyone in the United States parked their automobiles for a year we would have the net effect of about 2 weeks worth of Industrial Pollutants from India and about 1 week from China.... FWIW that is why the Kyoto treaty was killed! There was no attempt in Kyoto to control the pollution generated in 3rd world countries like that, Not because we Americans are raping and looting the world's energy sources as the Wacko, Tree Hugging, Hate America for any reason because we are Evil, Left Wing Loons would have you believe!How about a little balance here?
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Junk science-never.Although a environmentalist,I agree that global warming is the product of fevered minds.Industry however should be restrained into producing goods,without a pollution free for all.An interesting fact,volcanos,such as the St.Helens event put more CO2 and SO2 into the atmosphere,in days,than that produced by man since the industrial revolution.No mentions of that in global warming theories.I remember as a child,discussions about plans to spread soot on the polar ice caps,in order to melt them,thus avoiding the next ice age.Amazing how things change in a mere generation or two.PS If we're wrong,who cares,let the future generations sort it out.

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>Junk science-never.Although a environmentalist,I agree that
>global warming is the product of fevered minds.
>
>Industry however should be restrained into producing
>goods,without a pollution free for all.
>
>An interesting fact,volcanoes,such as the St.Helen's event put
>more CO2 and SO2 into the atmosphere,in days,than that
>produced by man since the industrial revolution.No mentions
>of that in global warming theories.
>
>I remember as a child,discussions about plans to spread soot
>on the polar ice caps,in order to melt them,thus avoiding
>the next ice age.Amazing how things change in a mere
>generation or two.
>
>PS If we're wrong,who cares,let the future generations sort
>it out. This is getting scary Larkie...
I actually agree with you on this....
I too believe that we have to take care of the environment....
I just believe, as any good engineer does, that you go to the worst part of the problem and fix that 1st before you work on the margins (highest return on your investment in resources)... For me that is cleaning up the industrial pollution from all those places I mentioned above BEFORE we start parking cars in Europe and North America (where we actually all do give a $hit about the environment - including the conservatives who relatively speaking would be considered environmental loons in India or China...)
However, if the real agenda is to make us hike in our Birkenstocks every where we go and to de-industrialize the world and consequently de-populate it as I suspect then that's another story....
I think the key phrase is responsible stewardship is it not?
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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OK this is now getting scary, Chuck & Larkie agreeing on something,Isn't that like one of the signs of the end times.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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There are also the NIMBY folks the look at as well. We see it all the time, people move next to an airport and form a community group to stop airplane noise. Towns want restrictions on train horns and stopped trains, but refuse to allow crossings to be closed or additional track laid. The same is true for Electric Transmission lines.
I worked for an electric authority here in Georgia installing fiber optic cables on the shield wires of transmission lines. I was surprised to see that some of the transmission lines had dates in the early 1900’s and were manufactured by Sears and Roebuck. (The early lines used windmill towers). But these systems are maintained by quality people and serve their function (Just like a GP9).
I have seen it time and time again that when additional generating capacity is added there is usually only an upgrade in the conductor (wires) to handle more current. There is usually public outrage and lawsuits whenever it is planned to increase voltages or build new lines.
While I do not buy into the doom and gloom of the global warming group, I think we need to find better ways to generate electricity. Oh wait we have… Nuclear. That is a different argument.As President Bush said that this was a wake up call, people have been warning us about this for the last 10 years.I think most of the people in this group look at a train passing through your town and do not get upset because it is not directly benefiting your town. It may be a coast to coast intermodal that will unload in a different town for businesses there. We see the progress. Not everyone sees that.I believe the cause of this blackout will be a faulty protection relay at a substation somewhere. If it was system design fault all of North America would be dark.My 2 Kilowatts worth,Robert

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Otto
I've got to agree with Larkie that the hydrogen car is at this time pie in the sky.
As to global warming we here in the midwest/great lakes area are just now seeing the temps reaching the low 90's, weather goes through strange cycles,back in the late 70's when major snowstorms buried a lot of US cities and hit us with record sub zero temps the cry from the eco advocates was "see there's a new ice age coming,we must drasticaly alter our lives to avoid it" jump forward to 1988 the US suffers a drought in the midwest and record heat,suddenly the eco battle cry shifts to "Global warming!!!" with again the demands that all us common folk give up technology and go live in caves, I'll buy the global warming theory when I see some real evidence(not just junk science from computer models that can be tweaked for the desired results).
Thursday night Hitlery was already blaming Bush's energy policy for the blackout(see my previous post)and hinting at a federal take over of power generation,personaly give me good ol profit motivation because if the Hildebeast and her ilk were running the show conservation of energy becomes more than a suggestion,it becomes"sir our records show you've used your power alotment for the month,sorry you're in the dark for the next week." and just in general I wouldn't trust burecrats in charge of a power system consisting of two sick hamsters on a wheel.
I think we will find that the grid system went down due to overload of the system and the fault there is not corporate CEO's lining their pockets(if the system craps out you're not making money)but squarely at the feet of NIMBYs and enviromentalistsGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Global Warming ist taking place already, but the question is are we really the main cause for it? I personally believe not. A few facts. Since the early 20th century, the energy the sun sends out to us has been continously measured and calculated. It has risen continously ever since then. At the same time, there is a lot LESS CO2 in the atmosphere than there should be accordin to those eco-terrorists. A few more facts:You may have noticed that Europe's been suffering from an unusually warm summer. Almost all mediterranean countries sufferd from large forest fires. Larger than usual, that is. Here in Frankfurt, we reached 37/38/39 degrees Celsius for a number of consecutive days in early august, with indoor temperatures rising well above the 30-degree mark. Now it is an interesting coincidence, that at this time of the year, the northern hemisphere is taking a lot of energy from the sun, and that the eleven year sunspot cyle is out of sync, with solar activity being higher than it should be. The conclusion in my eyes is clear. Most of the heat we get comes from the sun, not from our industries.Now, this does not mean that we shoud go on polluting the planet like we are now. Don't forget, at the moment, its the only planet we have. Still, we should look at the arguments of eco-maniacs very carefully.Note: One more thing. Just a few hours before the begin of the great blackout in the US, my father told me that he had received an e-mail warning, which said that a massive Coronal Mass Ejection had taken place on the sun, and was headed our way. It may have contributed to the blackout. It already happened once. I think Canada was affected, but don't ask me for the dates.Hope the writing was not to confusing.Greetings from FrankfurtThomas

"Damn the torpeodoes- Four bells Captain Drayton" - Admiral Farragut aboard USS Harford during the Battle of Mobile Bay, August 5th 1864.

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Thomas
Not confusing to me at all,I should have clarified in my post that I was looking for manmade global warming evidence,most of which is pure junk science that when it gets blown apart by real science the proponents of things such as Kyoto tell us "but even if it's not happening we still need to impliment these draconian measures just in case it might be occuring".
Mt. Pinatubo(sp?) in just one burp expelled a lot more crud in to the air than mankind could have done in years and lets face it at least in the major industrialized nations the enviroment has been getting cleaner, for example in a book I have on the CGW there are several color pics taken in the Chicago area circa 1965/1967,in several of these pics the Chitown skyline is covered by a thick cover of smog,that never happens anymore.
The pictures were just one small example of how far we've come.Agreed to the fact that we can't just go willy nilly dumping crud into our air & water but we(a mankind we,not a US we)are working to make things cleaner but the shock to the world economy to suddenly shift from a fossil fuel energy source to alternatve(and less reliable) sources would be disaterous.
Chuck posted earlier that fixes like the Kyoto Accords only hamstring the first world but allows the third world to just keep on polluting,kind of makes you wonder who's coming up with this in the UN?
Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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actually...you could have skipped all that gibberish and stated the real reason. The mass black-out was a domino effect, one overloaded or something like that and the rest just followed it."Well sir there's nothing on earth like a genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail!"

Tarsonis Rail Yards now seeking volunteers, private message me for more info

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Go on, admit it Steve. It was you who put a couple of slices of bread into the toaster at that time ! O t t o

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I have it on good authority that it was them kids from "Wierd Science" again, they forgot to hook up the doll.Actually there are probably a number of factors. I'm not nearly as old as Ottodad, but when I was born there were 140 million people in the USA, and 2 billion (American, not British, billion) people on the entire planet.
Now there's double the number of Yankee Doodles (about 280 million last I heard), and somewhere around 7 billion total world population. We scream about China's human rights violations with their mandatory birth control laws, within 50 years the USA will have to do the same. You couldn't prove global warming by me, since the weather here in Chicago goes up and down like a berserk yo-yo anyway, it sure don't feel like it's getting any warmer in the winter.The "greed is good" yuppie MBAs contribute to the problem where the resources are plentiful, "Deferred Maintenance" to boost the stock prices is almost the norm these days in any large corporation. Even public utilities have shareholders, and cutting the frills like maintenance or upgrading to meet the demand means you can increase the dividends paid out. They're not working for all you peons, they're working for the shareholders. Our electricity is moderately expensive and very reliable (Commonwealth Edison rather than Consolidated Edison here in Chi-town), but "Peoples Energy" is part of that Nicor thing, where they didn't buy enough reserves and the speculators buying futures drove the price of the supply up. Our natural gas bill on the 12 month budget plan was $140 per month (gas furnace, stove, water heater and clothes dryer, 10 room Victorian house) four years ago, it peaked out at $350 per month last year and is currently back down to $200 per month.

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Sniper
LMAO Love that flick,actually was in it (walked out with the first gal playing Lisa and bunch of extras at the mall scene)but ended up on the cutting room floor when they switched to Kelly Lebrock mid way through(though my car made the final cut look for a white 77 Pontiac Gran Prix with a red top just over AM Hall's shoulder when picking up Lisa at the mall)
But I digress, While it does look like Nicor has done some dumb a$$ things in gas purchases the over all natural gas spikes have to do with the eco loons insisting that (1) any new power plants must be gas fired rather than coal thus majorly driving up the demand and then (2) demanding that we not drill to get more gas,thus reducing supply. basic laws of supply & demand.Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Jim,there also was one member saying that his Dad had an E-Mail warning about a massive Solar Storm heading our way, similar to the one which wiped out Electricity in parts of Canada way back.Apart from reports that the Outage was caused by a fire in one power station, nothing else is being confirmed having been the reason for it.Surely, one single power-station leaving the Grid should not bring all of it down, reserves being on stand-by to cover any supply short-falls, one must assume ?O t t o

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An interesting thing about electricity and grids,is that they are inherantly designed for steady state conditions,with power coming on,or off line gradually.However the sudden loss of a generating station,can produce a current surge of about six times that actually lost,in the rest of the grid,as power is suddenly required from it,to supply that lost in the outage.It is this surge that blows other circuit breakers elsewhere.IE a domino effect.It's also the reason why it took a day or so to reastablish supplies gradually back to pre blackout condition.Three phase motors,(over 5KW in the UK) must,by law,be star\delta,or soft started,in order to minimise local power surges,or overloads.I have no idea if American practice differs.On ships,where we generate our own power,things can be quite dramatic,as we can start three phase motors directly on line(delta).For the first few milli seconds,it is,in effect a direct short circuit across the bussbars.You hear a physical thump,the lights flicker,the turbochargers scream on the diesel prime mover,but breakers are set to accept this surge,without compromising true overload tripping.

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>An interesting thing about electricity and grids,is that
>they are inherantly designed for steady state
>conditions,with power coming on,or off line gradually.
>
>However the sudden loss of a generating station,can produce
>a current surge of about six times that actually lost,in the
>rest of the grid,as power is suddenly required from it,to
>supply that lost in the outage.It is this surge that blows
>other circuit breakers elsewhere.IE a domino effect.
>
>It's also the reason why it took a day or so to reastablish
>supplies gradually back to pre blackout condition.
>
>Three phase motors,(over 5KW in the UK) must,by law,be
>star\delta,or soft started,in order to minimise local power
>surges,or overloads.I have no idea if American practice
>differs.
>
>On ships,where we generate our own power,things can be quite
>dramatic,as we can start three phase motors directly on
>line(delta).For the first few milli seconds,it is,in effect
>a direct short circuit across the bussbars.
>
>You hear a physical thump,the lights flicker,the
>turbochargers scream on the diesel prime mover,but breakers
>are set to accept this surge,without compromising true
>overload tripping. The power surge was caused when one of the power lines failing.

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.....<tosses a burned-out toaster into the dumpster and closes it>What? no it wasnt me...and dont go thinking to look in this dumpster either.
Well anyways, it would not be possible for me to do that without taking power to the whole twin cities as well "Well sir there's nothing on earth like a genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail!"

Tarsonis Rail Yards now seeking volunteers, private message me for more info

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