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Military Movements

Started by Macster 132 posts 231 min read

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MacsterCharter Member · 1246 posts

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Military Movements – image 1

At this time and current situation, please do not post anything on Military Trains, Military Movements, etc.News or Not, I rather not see another rail site closed down.Yes, websites are being takin' offline, that have content such as timetables, pictures of military trains, and other various things. CSX and BNSF have been using a few of there own heads to seek this information out.Thanks for your cooperation

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WaMilitary Movements – image 2

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RE: Military Movements., Macster, Feb-08-03, 07:18 PM, (1) RE: Military Movements., AM_ROAD, Feb-08-03, 07:32 PM, (2) RE: Military Movements., Poltergeist, Feb-08-03, 08:21 PM, (3) RE: Military Movements., AM_ROAD, Feb-08-03, 08:32 PM, (4) RE: Military Movements., Macster, Feb-08-03, 08:47 PM, (5) RE: Military Movements., Poltergeist, Feb-08-03, 09:28 PM, (6) RE: Military Movements., CPR_Malice_96th, Feb-08-03, 09:41 PM, (9) RE: Military Movements., SVTS, Feb-08-03, 09:58 PM, (12) RE: Military Movements., Aussie Cow, Feb-12-03, 08:41 AM, (115) RE: Military Movements., Lone_Gunman_SG, Feb-09-03, 06:47 PM, (42) RE: Military Movements., SVTS, Feb-08-03, 09:30 PM, (7) RE: Military Movements., CSX_Jim, Feb-08-03, 09:39 PM, (8) RE: Military Movements., SVTS, Feb-08-03, 09:49 PM, (10) RE: Military Movements., SVTS, Feb-08-03, 09:52 PM, (11) RE: Military Movements., CSX_Jim, Feb-09-03, 00:47 AM, (18) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 11:37 AM, (25) RE: Military Movements., CSX_Jim, Feb-09-03, 12:53 PM, (27) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 02:22 PM, (31) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 12:54 PM, (67) RE: Military Movements., Brad 110, Feb-10-03, 03:54 PM, (73) RE: Military Movements., rpicardi1, Feb-10-03, 04:23 PM, (74) RE: Military Movements., Brad 110, Feb-11-03, 04:37 AM, (89) RE: Military Movements., Brad 110, Feb-08-03, 10:10 PM, (13) RE: Military Movements., delamaize, Feb-08-03, 10:20 PM, (14) RE: Military Movements., CSX_Jim, Feb-09-03, 00:54 AM, (19) RE: Military Movements., delamaize, Feb-09-03, 01:50 PM, (30) RE: Military Movements., CSX_Jim, Feb-09-03, 00:34 AM, (17) RE: Military Movements., Meeshu, Feb-08-03, 10:26 PM, (15) RE: Military Movements., Macster, Feb-09-03, 00:33 AM, (16) RE: Not just military trains..., heffed, Feb-09-03, 01:33 AM, (20) RE: Not just military trains..., imprezzed, Feb-09-03, 02:01 AM, (21) RE: Not just military trains..., davereage, Feb-09-03, 03:36 AM, (22) RE: Not just military trains..., CSXALine, Feb-09-03, 07:02 AM, (23) RE: Not just military trains..., ASR_Q301, Feb-09-03, 07:43 AM, (24) RE: Military Movements., jlucero4, Feb-09-03, 12:36 PM, (26) RE: Military Movements., CSX_Jim, Feb-09-03, 12:59 PM, (28) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-09-03, 01:46 PM, (29) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 02:36 PM, (32) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-09-03, 03:43 PM, (35) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 05:07 PM, (39) RE: Military Movements., davereage, Feb-09-03, 07:32 PM, (43) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 11:44 PM, (53) RE: Military Movements., hemo, Feb-10-03, 07:04 PM, (78) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 07:27 PM, (82) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 08:39 PM, (85) RE: Military Movements., davereage, Feb-10-03, 07:14 PM, (81) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 08:26 PM, (84) RE: Military Movements., davereage, Feb-10-03, 11:00 PM, (86) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-11-03, 01:29 AM, (87) RE: Military Movements., davereage, Feb-11-03, 05:59 PM, (100) RE: Military Movements., Brad 110, Feb-11-03, 08:51 PM, (103) RE: Military Movements., davereage, Feb-12-03, 00:12 AM, (107) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-09-03, 07:38 PM, (44) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 01:59 AM, (58) Deleted, Hoosier95, Feb-13-03, 02:02 AM, (129) RE: Military Movements., kevarc, Feb-09-03, 02:43 PM, (33) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 03:06 PM, (34) RE: Military Movements., Macster, Feb-09-03, 03:47 PM, (36) RE: Military Movements., jlucero4, Feb-09-03, 04:26 PM, (37) RE: Military Movements., Macster, Feb-09-03, 04:35 PM, (38) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 05:09 PM, (40) RE: Military Movements., CGW409, Feb-09-03, 09:49 PM, (46) RE: Military Movements., jlucero4, Feb-09-03, 10:17 PM, (47) RE: Military Movements., CSXALine, Feb-09-03, 06:34 PM, (41) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-09-03, 08:07 PM, (45) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-09-03, 10:33 PM, (48) RE: Military Movements., Tinrail, Feb-09-03, 10:52 PM, (50) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 00:40 AM, (56) RE: Military Movements., CSXALine, Feb-10-03, 04:21 AM, (59) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 12:48 PM, (66) RE: Military Movements., CSXALine, Feb-09-03, 10:41 PM, (49) RE: Military Movements., Brad 110, Feb-09-03, 10:54 PM, (51) RE: Military Movements., imprezzed, Feb-09-03, 11:17 PM, (52) RE: Military Movements., b101uk, Feb-10-03, 00:03 AM, (54) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 00:34 AM, (55) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-10-03, 03:13 PM, (71) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 05:47 PM, (75) RE: Military Movements., b101uk, Feb-10-03, 06:15 PM, (77) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 07:11 PM, (80) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-11-03, 05:36 AM, (90) RE: Military Movements., slenster, Feb-11-03, 08:57 AM, (92) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-11-03, 09:33 AM, (93) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-11-03, 01:33 PM, (96) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-11-03, 05:24 PM, (99) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-11-03, 07:06 PM, (102) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-11-03, 09:18 PM, (104) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-12-03, 05:32 AM, (111) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-12-03, 05:22 PM, (124) RE: Military Movements., CSXALine, Feb-10-03, 04:47 AM, (60) RE: Military Movements., Poltergeist, Feb-10-03, 08:30 AM, (61) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 12:39 PM, (65) RE: Military Movements., Long Island Rails, Feb-10-03, 01:47 PM, (68) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 01:51 PM, (69) RE: Military Movements., Brad 110, Feb-10-03, 03:39 PM, (72) RE: Military Movements., CGW409, Feb-10-03, 06:02 PM, (76) RE: Military Movements., rpicardi1, Feb-10-03, 07:06 PM, (79) RE: Military Movements., Brad 110, Feb-11-03, 04:34 AM, (88) RE: Military Movements., Poltergeist, Feb-11-03, 10:01 AM, (94) RE: Military Movements., Long Island Rails, Feb-11-03, 12:53 PM, (95) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-11-03, 05:11 PM, (98) RE: Military Movements., Long Island Rails, Feb-12-03, 12:09 PM, (120) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-12-03, 03:40 PM, (121) RE: Military Movements., Long Island Rails, Feb-12-03, 05:01 PM, (122) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-12-03, 05:15 PM, (123) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-12-03, 06:56 PM, (126) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-12-03, 11:27 PM, (127) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-13-03, 05:05 AM, (130) RE: Military Movements. (Fine French Whines), chucksc, Feb-12-03, 11:44 PM, (128) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-11-03, 03:10 PM, (97) RE: Military Movements., Poltergeist, Feb-11-03, 09:38 PM, (105) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-11-03, 11:55 PM, (106) RE: Military Movements., Long Island Rails, Feb-12-03, 09:39 AM, (116) RE: Military Movements., CSXALine, Feb-10-03, 03:00 PM, (70) RE: Military Movements., rpicardi1, Feb-10-03, 08:47 AM, (62) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-10-03, 00:51 AM, (57) RE: Military Movements., rpicardi1, Feb-10-03, 09:02 AM, (63) RE: Military Movements., sd70mac666, Feb-10-03, 10:15 AM, (64) RE: Military Movements., ssw_96, Feb-10-03, 07:53 PM, (83) RE: Military Movements., imprezzed, Feb-11-03, 07:22 AM, (91) RE: Military Movements., CGW409, Feb-11-03, 07:03 PM, (101) RE: Military Movements., West_Coast_Railroader, Feb-12-03, 02:32 AM, (109) RE: Military Movements., kevarc, Feb-12-03, 12:04 PM, (119) RE: Military Movements., kevarc, Feb-12-03, 00:16 AM, (108) RE: Military Movements., chucksc, Feb-12-03, 03:18 AM, (110) RE: Military Movements., Macster, Feb-12-03, 07:08 AM, (112) RE: Military Movements., LARKIE, Feb-12-03, 07:41 AM, (113) RE: Military Movements., Poltergeist, Feb-12-03, 08:22 AM, (114) RE: Military Movements., Stumbl, Feb-12-03, 11:03 AM, (117) RE: Military Movements., Poltergeist, Feb-12-03, 11:32 AM, (118) RE: Military Movements., Dash9_Man, Feb-12-03, 05:56 PM, (125) RE: Military Movements., CSXALine, Feb-13-03, 09:59 AM, (131)

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PoltergeistMember since Aug-8-02 · 514 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Military Movements – image 6

so let me get this straight, we can't post anything about militatry train, or anything that has to do with our militatry right now because of the situation? I'm not trying to be rude Im just want clarification about this post. Thank you.
Military Movements – image 7 Military Movements – image 8 Military Movements – image 9 Military Movements – image 10 Military Movements – image 11 Military Movements – image 12 Military Movements – image 13 Military Movements – image 14


I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem

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AM_ROADCharter Member · 563 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I guess so I posted about trains leaving a certain spot to an area and I got in trouble ( i ment noharm). You can talk about them but just not what or wear they are going.

Military Movements – image 15

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MacsterCharter Member · 1246 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Military Movements – image 16

You can talk about them, but DO NOT post or display pictures or location of where you saw the trains. Like I said, i rather this site be takin' down because of somebody posting about it....

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WaMilitary Movements – image 17

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PoltergeistMember since Aug-8-02 · 514 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Military Movements – image 18

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-03 AT 09:29 PM (EDT)

Well my uncle is getting shipped out now, thanks alot George W. Bush.

Military Movements – image 19 Military Movements – image 20 Military Movements – image 21 Military Movements – image 22 Military Movements – image 23 Military Movements – image 24 Military Movements – image 25 Military Movements – image 26


I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem

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CPR_Malice_96thCharter Member · 2274 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Military Movements – image 27

>Well my uncle is getting shipped out now, thanks alot George
>W. Bush.
>
>Ummmmmmmmm George W. Bush didn't tell your uncle to join the military did he ??Time to grow up a bit !!Tim Kent
Winnipeg Canada
" Power for You "Military Movements – image 28

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SVTSCharter Member · 1141 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-03 AT 10:00 PM (EDT)

I can't believe anyone would even post something like that. What would you prefer President Bush do, nothing at all? I don't like war no more than anyone else does, but we need to take a stand, and let the world know that the United states, and other countries, will not allow terroists to destroy our way of life. My wife is a proud member of the US Army, has been for 9 years this May, and she knew, just like everyone else who has joined up, that in the event of war, he or she may be called upon to serve thier country. Your uncle knew that. That is his job. If you want to blame someone, blame him, not the president. I've alway enjoyed your post Poltergiest, and usually, were on the same page. But in this case, I think a book got dropped on your head. In the words of the great Tim Kent,"time to grow up a bit"As with any member of the military family that I call my family, I wish your uncle a safe and speedy tour of duty, and hope that he returns soon.

Chris Bogley
Ft. Huachuca AZ
http://groups.msn.com/Tehachapi (Update Coming Soon!)
http://groups.msn.com/ChrisBogleyPhotography (Coming March 2003)

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Aussie CowMember since Feb-6-03 · 109 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Military Movements – image 29

>>Well my uncle is getting shipped out now, thanks alot George
>>W. Bush.
>>
>>
>
>Ummmmmmmmm George W. Bush didn't tell your uncle to join the
>military did he ??
>
>Time to grow up a bit !!
DAM RIGHT THERE TIM!
Out here in Australia, the water train looks set to return with 99.6% of the state (New South Wales) in drought. Will they remove sites which have water train time-tables?Projects
- 421 class Public Transport Commission of New South Wales diesel electircs:
Roof - 90%
No. 2 end - 88% (MU sockets, pilot details and number boards/headlights need to be added)
No. 1 end - 05% (Headlight & handrails are on)
Overall - 11.2%
- 422 class New South Wales Government Railways diesel electircs:
On the drawing boards for a project after the 421's.
Overall - Not official

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SVTSCharter Member · 1141 posts

RE: Military Movements.

As a happily married man to a Capt. in the US Army, it makes perfect sence to not talk about recent movements of military transport, by rail or any other means. I have 1 picture of such a train, all be it taken over a year ago, which will be removed from my website in a few minutes.I strongly encourage others to adhere to Brians request, and I trust that he will monitor these forums very closely to make sure it is done.

Chris Bogley
Ft. Huachuca AZ
http://groups.msn.com/Tehachapi (Update Coming Soon!)
http://groups.msn.com/ChrisBogleyPhotography (Coming March 2003)

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CSX_JimMember since Jun-27-02 · 170 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Since there seems to be so much concern about what information is being disseminated via this forum site, all of you might want to send a message off to MSNBC and ask them to remove the by state listings of what units are being mobilized, where they are located and the number of folks that are in each unit.

Jim

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SVTSCharter Member · 1141 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-03 AT 10:21 PM (EDT)

Two completly different things Jim.A train has no way of protecting it's path, or it's cargo, not to mention the area in which it travels. In other words, it is a sitting duck.When they announce on the news about miliatary build ups, and units being deployed, this is done thanks in part to information released by the US government. Why? Becasue Iraq watches the news too, and its always nice to let your enemy know that we are serious, and that if they don't come around to thier sences, than the massive build up they have been hearing about will be knocking on their front door very soon. Most importantly, the aircraft, or aicraft carrier that these troops and cargo are on, can protect themselves. A train, can't.

Chris Bogley
Ft. Huachuca AZ
http://groups.msn.com/Tehachapi (Update Coming Soon!)
http://groups.msn.com/ChrisBogleyPhotography (Coming March 2003)

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CSX_JimMember since Jun-27-02 · 170 posts

RE: Military Movements.

No Chris, they are not two completely different things. I work within the framework of the people that are dealing with terrorism on a daily basis. I watch these guys get sent off to do their duty daily. I spent 27 years on active duty and still work within the environment.My wife has 29 going on 30 years in the military. Operations Security applies across the board. 10 years working in the Intelligence community taught me that.The knee jerk response to postings about trains on this website or any other only goes to demonstrate the naiveness that exists amongst the general public. Everyone is quick to request train material not be posted here but don't see a thing wrong with websites that post mobilization information, troop counts, and unit identifications.Think through this a little deeper. This website supports a software package that in essence give someone a very good understanding on how to drive a locomotive. Microsoft is still selling the software. Don't you think if they were really concerned they would have shutdown this website way before now.

Jim

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Actually Jim I respectfully must disagree with you!
They really are 2 different things...1. Troop Buildups and movements published in the media and released by the government are usually a conscious decision by the National Command Authority to disseminate that information for a whole host of reasons. These Include, but are not limited to, Psychological Warfare and deception(Here it comes! Even if it isn't) For instance in WW2 during the buildup to D-Day there was an entire "fake army" under Patton in England whose "troop movements" were routinely leaked to the press in order to deceive the germans about the state of readiness and direction of the invasion - it worked as Hitler wouldn't give Rommel his reserves because he "knew" that Patton was gonna land in the Pas de Calais any minute. This is a decision made by competent (we hope) authority and not some foamer on his web site!
FWIW Both the DOD and the Department of Homeland Security as part of the threat elevation to Orange and imminent action in have requested that this type of information not be published by hobbyists in the various train and plane forums..
You should know that since you work in that environment! Making statements like;>>>>>>>The knee jerk response to postings about trains on this website or any other only goes to demonstrate the naiveness that exists amongst the general public. Everyone is quick to request train material not be posted here but don't see a thing wrong with websites that post mobilization information, troop counts, and unit identifications.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<is not real professional on your part IMHO!
I and most of us also have a real problem with websites that post unauthorized data about mobilization info etc... If I see any I will be sure to report them forthwith! If you see any, working in the environment as you do, you should initiate action IMO!
BTW, the railroads themselves have repeatedly requested this info be with held... Some one here has even posted a letter by a lawyer for one of the RRs requesting that a fan site take down their timetables... I guess the RR (CSX?) is being Naive and Knee Jerk also????
We are just trying to do self policing in our own community!2. As stated above Convoys, Aircraft and what not can defend themselves by many means including at the least taking various routings! A train cannot as it travels on a fixed track...
Granted the Terrorists can attack the track at any time..
But think how much more effective that attack would be if it destroyed a train full of M1 tanks or nuclear materials or chemicals! FWIW they are apparently going nutz in California over one high-jacked truck full of dangerous chemicals... Imagine a whole train load....
BTW, I thank you and your wife for your service to our country!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 31

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CSX_JimMember since Jun-27-02 · 170 posts

RE: Military Movements.

That you disagree does not surprise me....It was reported and action was intiated...will it change anything, no. Why, First Amendment freedoms.Do you guys really believe that military train movements are secret. Do you really believe that the only way this information would be known is if it is posted on a web site that is about trains.I can assure you that right now, at every major point of embarkation and debarkation, that agents from several countries, to include some of our allies, are tracking troop and equipment movements. It's all part of that little game we play.The threat from terrorism won't be against a military equipment train. If they, the terrorists, decide to attack a train it will be one that can cause widespread damage or death. An AMTRAK train, a train carrying hazardous materials, that will be their target. Military equipment transports also do not carry ammo. They are transported separately.As I stated before, the point of my initial post skyrocketed over your head as well as everyone else's. Posting any information related to the mobilization of the military, or targets of interest to terrorists, should not be on this site or any site. Unfortunately there really isn't a lot that can be done about it. If it appears all we are able to do is notify them that it needs to be removed. Whether or not it is removed is another issue. Of the several sites that we have contacted, not one has been taken down, nor have all of them removed the info that we feel shouldn't be posted.

Jim

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-03 AT 02:42 PM (EDT)

>>>>> I can assure you that right now, at every major point of embarkation and debarkation, that agents from several countries, to include some of our allies, are tracking troop and equipment movements. It's all part of that little game we play.OK, but why make their job easier for them?
At least this way their guy has to be on the ground watching where there is a chance that our people may catch him.. Not possible if all they have to do is surf the web from Baghdad or Pyongyang! How-about from Berlin or Paris (The infamous axis of weasel!) where there is a real possibility it will be "leaked" to Baghdad as I understand the problem!>>> The threat from terrorism won't be against a military equipment trainUnless of course they're operating under sub-contract from Baghdad and the idea is to deny that material to deploying troops.. Remember wrecking 50 M1 tanks can effectively deny those weapons to our troops for some considerable period of time! Because of their complexity and cost we can't replace high tech weapons systems in any reasonable period by merely writing a Purchase order.>>> If they, the terrorists, decide to attack a train it will be one that can cause widespread damage or death. An AMTRAK train, a train carrying hazardous materials, that will be their targetI agree and I think I said the same thing.. Stipulating that the terrorists are acting as terrorists and not sub-contractors for Iraq or North Korea!>>> Military equipment transports also do not carry ammo. They are transported separately.Agreed! That means there are 2 different types of targets instead of one. IIRC there was a hell of an ammunition explosion in the NYC area in the run up to our entering WW1 that was caused by German Saboteurs that were targeting ammo shipments to the UK... The consequences of that led to ammo shortages on the Western Front and contributed to bogging down the Allies in the trenches even further..>>> the point of my initial post skyrocketed over your head as well as everyone else'sROFLMAO! I don't think so.... I just didn't agree with what I felt was the thrust of your amplifying statements...>>>> Of the several sites that we have contacted, not one has been taken down, nor have all of them removed the info that we feel shouldn't be posted.OK So why don't you let the rest of us know who the non-cooperating ones are? I'm sure they will be taken down if enough people from the Rail-fan Community complain to them and their ISPs...
And that can be done with out violating their 1st amendment rights! Since we aren't a government agency...
Its called consumer pressure and its done all the time...
Just ask Kathy Lee Gifford about the use of Child Labor...
Or Rush Limbaugh and pressure on his sponsors by Liberal Groups..
>>>>> Posting any information related to the mobilization of the military, or targets of interest to terrorists, should not be on this site or any site.Which was the thrust of my initial Alert to Nels and Brian and my message to the initial poster! "Loose lips sink ships" was the civilian watch phrase in a prior conflict.Also I see reports of "Confirmed Deployments of F117 Stealth Fighters to Qatar joining the significant numbers of F16 and F15 aircraft already deployed" on Fox and several other channels.. Pointing out that they played a significant role in Decapitating the Iraqi forces in the 1991 war...
Now if my "theory" is correct those are semi-official leaks designed by our "National Command Authority" to increase the psychological pressure on Iraq... Do you also condemn those news reports?BTW, keep it up! This is an interesting discussion with lots of info for those not close to these issues...Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 32

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>That you disagree does not surprise me....
>
>It was reported and action was intiated...will it change
>anything, no. Why, First Amendment freedoms.
>You know I believe there is a Well respected Legal Opinion that basically States that the Constitution and specifically the 1st Amendment was not intended to be a Suicide Pact!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 33

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Brad 110Member since Aug-31-02 · 235 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Actually there are several. One of the most famous is by Justice OW Holmes, who used the example of shouting fire in a crowded theater to explain that free speech does not allow one to deliberately and wantonly endanger the lives of others. Another and later opinion has held that commercial speech (i.e. advertising) is not protected by the first ammendment and the govt has the authority to regulate such for truth and accuracy. There are others decisions that touch on this as well.
People who knee-jerk about what the Constitution allows would do well to take a look at som Supreme Court decisions, as no matter what you or I or they might choose to believe, in the end it is the SC that says what the Constitution means.Brad Meyer

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rpicardi1Charter Member · 652 posts

RE: Military Movements.

1st admendment is there to protect political speach and the right of Americans to critizise their Goverment, the people running for office and the policies of those in office.It does not protect those that joke in public about the sobrity of the airline pilot while at the airport, saying something that might be considered as a threat to a political offical by some third party listening to the conservation, or anything else that could be considered supporting the terrorist. Common sense no longer applys in those cases anymore. This includes anything typed on the PC, posted, e-mailed, or deleted afterwards. (Many computers are unknowingly infected with keystroke recorders that periodically upload the content to a hacker or Big Brother.)Of course, it has not stopped Congress from passing the McCain Finstein Campaign Finance Reform Bill which does violate the 1st Asmendment and is being challanged in the courts.SRV Ron

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Brad 110Member since Aug-31-02 · 235 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>Of course, it has not stopped Congress from passing the
>McCain Finstein Campaign Finance Reform Bill which does
>violate the 1st Asmendment and is being challanged in the
>courts. To be fair, if it is being challenged in the courts, then it is only alleged to violate the First Amendment. It is yet to be decided if such is in fact the case.Brad Meyer

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Brad 110Member since Aug-31-02 · 235 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>Since there seems to be so much concern about what
>information is being disseminated via this forum site, all
>of you might want to send a message off to MSNBC . . .I think Macster's concern is about _this_ website -- not MSNBC's. They likely have their own people to worry about content.Brad Meyer

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delamaizeCharter Member · 379 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Military Movements – image 34

Also something to keep in mind: some of us are in the millitary, and could be leaving soon. (not me, I am in the army, but my unit can't be deployed.) your talk about millitary movements could get one of our fellow colliges in these forums killed in one way or another.GO ARMY! HOOHA!!

Military Movements – image 35 Military Movements – image 36 Military Movements – image 37 Military Movements – image 38 Military Movements – image 39 Military Movements – image 40 Military Movements – image 41 Military Movements – image 42 Military Movements – image 43 Military Movements – image 44 Military Movements – image 45 Military Movements – image 46 Military Movements – image 47 Military Movements – image 48 Military Movements – image 49 Military Movements – image 50 Military Movements – image 51 Military Movements – image 52 Military Movements – image 53 Military Movements – image 54 Military Movements – image 55 Military Movements – image 56 Military Movements – image 57 Military Movements – image 58 Military Movements – image 59 Military Movements – image 60
Delamaize
"Long Live High Speed Rail In The USA"
Military Movements – image 61
Head Locomotive Builder Extraordinaire

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CSX_JimMember since Jun-27-02 · 170 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Delamaize, never ever believe you can't be deployed. I know many young men and women right now who thought their duty was limited to two days a month and two weeks in the summer.I have a brother-in-law on active duty in the Army who claimed the same thing, 'my unit will never be deployed'. Well guess what, it wasn't but he was reassigned to fill vacancies in a unit that was.

Jim

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delamaizeCharter Member · 379 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Military Movements – image 62

'my unit will never be deployed'
My unit MIGHT be deployed, yes and I know it can happen, but if my unit leaves this post, the post can't complete it's mission. my unit is a crutial part of the support to the mission on this post due to FAA and army regulations. I really can't say much more than that due to the "war time" situation. yes I understand that I could deploy, but it is highly unlikely.
Military Movements – image 63 Military Movements – image 64 Military Movements – image 65 Military Movements – image 66 Military Movements – image 67 Military Movements – image 68 Military Movements – image 69 Military Movements – image 70 Military Movements – image 71 Military Movements – image 72 Military Movements – image 73 Military Movements – image 74 Military Movements – image 75 Military Movements – image 76 Military Movements – image 77 Military Movements – image 78 Military Movements – image 79 Military Movements – image 80 Military Movements – image 81 Military Movements – image 82 Military Movements – image 83 Military Movements – image 84 Military Movements – image 85 Military Movements – image 86 Military Movements – image 87 Military Movements – image 88
Delamaize
"Long Live High Speed Rail In The USA"
Military Movements – image 89
Head Locomotive Builder Extraordinaire

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MacsterCharter Member · 1246 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Click to send message via ICQ

Military Movements – image 90

Yes... yes it is.. he is "extremely" beating the crap out of a copy machine from the movie Office Space.....

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WaMilitary Movements – image 91

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heffedMember since Feb-5-03 · 54 posts

RE: Not just military trains...

All trains in general could be terrorist targets. If they wanted to take out a major supply line, it wouldn't be too difficult in certain areas.Union Pacific releases regular employee memos stating that any info regarding trains or train movements is strictly "need to know", and that any suspicious people or activities seen near a right of way should be reported immediately.It's not too much to ask in my opinion. Why jepordize anyone's safety?-Jeff

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imprezzedCharter Member · 53 posts

RE: Not just military trains...

Sure looks like this is becoming censorship...sites are being taken down for posting picture and times? I could be wrong, but isn't free speech part of the American Consitution? Sounds like supression to me...

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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davereageCharter Member · 526 posts

RE: Not just military trains...

I agree. To be honest, this sounds like a load of paranoia to me. I know the American government thinks they need to crack down on a lot of things lately, but a train simualtion site? Seems a bit extreme to me.

Dave Reage,
somewhere near the end of CN's Dartmouth Sub

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ASR_Q301Charter Member · 329 posts

RE: Not just military trains...

:S - what millitary trains??
NOTE im being sarcastic - we should treat the trains just like that - as if they are not there and we will all be safe just a thoughtcheers
mikeMilitary Movements – image 94

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jlucero4Charter Member · 119 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Military Movements – image 95

LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-03 AT 01:06 PM (EDT)

>>>>>In addition, I hope anyone that has a timetable published on a site, or any other information that could be used againest a railroad, I hope they will take a minute and remove the info from thier site.<<<<I seriously doubt that any terrorist would use an online timetable to get their information. They can get all the information they want just from observing a specific location for a certain amount of time.IMO, CSX did not have the right to shut down the CSX timetable website. After all, aren't timetables public property? You can find them at train shows and can purchase them on e-bay as well as other websites. Just an example of CSX using "security" as an excuse to shut the website down.
BNSF timetables can be found straight off their website. If there really was a security threat with these timetables, wouldn't BNSF have taken theirs down also?Not trying to start a flame war, just stating my opinion.Jordan*Edited for spelling*

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CSX_JimMember since Jun-27-02 · 170 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-03 AT 01:00 PM (EDT)

Point well made...A terrorist that decides to hit a train, will be on that train. I guess that's something many have not figured out yet. These folks are fanatics who believe dying in the pursuit of their endeavor will gain them a higher place.

Jim

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Good point.I think the main objection made by the CSX lawyer was that they were not too pleased at a site displaying their logo,plus the timetable info.Especially if some detail was wrong,causing confusion with the authorised CSX timetable info.I certainly can't display "Scotrail" timetables,or use their logo,on a website,for copyright reasons.But I'm free to redistribute their free printed timetables,if I'm daft enough to do so,as they're already in the public domain in great piles at every Scotrail station.The security issue's a red herring,in my opinion,just to add icing to the cake.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Of course you would think that Larkie...You've already made your Anti-American sentiments very clear in "Le Affair Peace-nick Train Drivers"...I would expect you to do anything to endanger Americans in an effort to thwart American Policy....I wonder what your reaction would be if they (the terrorists) got info from a UK rail-site that allowed them to sabotage those "Ammunition Trains" the Drivers were so concerned about world peace and the American Aggression on Poor Peaceable Defenseless Iraq that they refused to drive them...
Oh wait, Maybe that's the real problem for those train drivers? The danger that they would be sabotaged and their lilly livered a$$es would be at risk????
Here in the "Warmongering Aggressive States" led by Hitler's successor, Dubya, we call that "Lack of intestinal fortitude"!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 96

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

So sorry you've decided to personalise things Chuck.I've had a feeling you've been "stalking" me,as you seem to follow every post of mine with some stupid comment.For a start,I'm not anti American,I've been there many times over the years,from the sixties to the nineties.Many other countries too,including Russia,The Peoples Republic Of China,and every continent except Antartica.So I have seen first hand how the different political ideoligies worked as far as each countries population was concerned.I do disagree with the approach of your countries foreign policy at the moment.Going after Saddam does nothing to stop Al Quaeda.Indeed you're helping "bin liner" achieve his goal.However your personal attacks on me will not affect the outcome of history yet to be written,and usually such attacks are prompted by a persons inability to have a reasonable discussion.Perhaps if you,and your country really valued democracy,instead of trying to ram your version of it down everybody's throat."I'm democratic,and if you don't agree I'll bomb you",things would go better for the US.As around 70% of the UK's population don't agree with Bush and Blair's approach to Iraq at the moment,it would seem I'm in the majority.I'm not anti war,I've been in war zones, (On a VOLUNTARY basis I may add as a Merchant Marine Officer) ,including Africa and the middle east,(the gulf)and some of my fellow officers were killed by missile attacks on their vessels,I was lucky,only the meat in a refrigeration locker was prematurely "cooked" by shellfire,or perhaps according to your "standards".Better off killed then,eh?Being on the receiving end does hone your attitude to further needless conflicts.Go have your war,I trust you'll volunteer,or are you the armchair warrior?Me?I will,if for a just cause,as it is my democratic right,and in my opinion this proposed venture is not.I regret that you chose to belittle me,but perhaps saner minds will prevail in the end,as it now seems the Russian and French governments,with signals from China will back the disarmament of Iraq under UN auspices.That's three of the five permanent members of the Security Council,and any one of them has a veto that should stop W in his tracks if cast.
Or is the bastion of democracy going to invade regardless?I think even Blair is pragmatic enough to let W figure out his own move after such a vote.Still only time will tell,but I've still to see how a Scotrail timetable of commuter services gives aid to "world terrorism".

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-03 AT 05:30 PM (EDT)

And what is relevant in your post to what I said to you????
I believe that it is you who is engaging in ad-homonym attacks due to the intellectual bankruptcy of your arguments.And, Yes I do watch what you say since so much of it seems to question American Motives and is an attack on our President
(Now who's getting personal ?)
I feel somebody has to refute the absolute untruths you seem to insert in your posts with a certain alacrity.But since you raised these issues let me deal with them one by one...>>>> "I do disagree with the approach of your countries foreign policy at the moment.Going after Saddam does nothing to stop Al Quaeda.Indeed you're helping "bin liner" achieve his goal."How exactly is denying Al-Quaeda of one of their major arsenals and a source of refuge helping them???
Oh, you mean the "Arab Street" will hate us and thousands of young men will flock to join the terrorists? Have you looked at Palestine lately? That's already happened and IMHO we couldn't make it any worse...
I guess we should have continued to appease Hitler because millions of Germans on the Street around the world would have risen up against us, eh?
>>>> "However your personal attacks on me will not affect the outcome of history yet to be written,and usually such attacks are prompted by a persons inability to have a reasonable discussion."I don't think I'm the one engaging in ad homonym arguments due to a lack of intellectual content here!
>>>> "Perhaps if you,and your country really valued democracy,instead of trying to ram your version of it down everybody's throat."I'm democratic,and if you don't agree I'll bomb you",things would go better for the US"See above about your tendency to insert personal opinion as a fact!I guess Saddam's "Democracy" was chosen by the Iraqi people in a legitimate Internationally Sanctioned election, Eh?So our liberation of the Iraqi people and Afghanistan is "ram your version of it(Democracy) down everybody's throat" ?
So is liberating any one from Tyranny?
(Yes I know we temporarily tolerate tyrants in other parts of the world.. But most of them are too smart to pi$$ in our cornflakes directly - Unlike Mr Kim and Mr. Hussein and we'll get to them presently - usually by our most powerful weapon - economic means)And you're a Scot? Guess Mel Gibson was full of $hit about warrior poets if most Scots are like you? (For the good of the UK Military thank God they're not.)Perhaps we should have adapted your philosophy during WW1 and WW2????
When your freedom and Europe's was on the line!Its funny but the German and French and Japanese Democratic Systems parallel yours in the UK much more closely than ours! Even the Russian system more closely tracks yours than ours. If we were ever going to ram it down anyones throat those places would have been where it was done!
And exactly what do you mean "things would go better for the US" ?Subjugation to the likes of Saddam or Bin Laden? Reconstitution as a Muslim theocracy? Yes I'm sure we really want that! Living on our Knees and in Fear and poverty! Can you say Taliban?
>>> "I'm democratic,and if you don't agree I'll bomb you"So who have we bombed lately? Besides Afghanistan, Iraq and Serbia (Ah yes Serbia, Now there was a great bastion of democracy there - ethnic cleansing and all - straight out of Hitler and Stalin's play book) You're not really trying to say those countries, their values and systems of government are superior to "Democracy" are you?>>>> As around 70% of the UK's population don't agree with Bush and Blair's approach to Iraq at the moment,it would seem I'm in the majority.OK you have a Parliamentary system of Government don't you?
Where is the vote of "No Confidence" that brings Blair down?????
Or is your 70% disapproval like the numbers of our far left who quote polls where the question is phrased something like, "If George Bush's policy results in a Nuclear Attack on the United States by Al Quaeda operating from Bases in Lower Nose Pickestan and 30 million people die, do you approve? yes or no" with largely predictable results!
The poll then gets reported as "70% disapprove of George Bush's Policy!"
The interesting part is the 30% who do approve!>>>> Go have your war,I trust you'll volunteer,or are you the armchair warrior?.Been there, Done that, got the ribbons and T-Shirt!
So to call me an Armchair Warrior is extremely offensive to say the least! But I don't expect any better from you...
(What was your point about personal attacks again???)>>> "I'm not anti war,I've been in war zones, (On a VOLUNTARY basis I may add as a Merchant Marine Officer) ,including Africa and the middle east,(the gulf)and some of my fellow officers were killed by missile attacks on their vessels,I was lucky,only the meat in a refrigeration locker was prematurely "cooked" by shellfire,or perhaps according to your "standards".Better off killed then,eh?Being on the receiving end does hone your attitude to further needless conflicts."Lets Analise this;
"On a VOLUNTARY basis I may add as a Merchant Marine Officer"OK, IIRC Merchies get anywhere from 200% to 500% bonus for service in an Active "Combat Zone"."I was lucky,only the meat in a refrigeration locker was prematurely "cooked" by shellfire,or perhaps according to your "standards".Better off killed then,eh?"That was called a "close encounter" of the "Aw $hit" kind where I was! And where do you get this "Better off Killed then" Krapola?
That statement makes no sense and doesn't resemble anything I've said unless, of course, you immediately started "co-operating" with the people shooting at you??????? For "un-armed" merchantmen that is not a shameful thing! Guy has a gun and you don't! So why would you want us to put ours down when Al-Quaeda, Iraq and North Korea have not? Yet!"Being on the receiving end does hone your attitude to further needless conflicts."Why did you think it was needless? What was the needless part, "Your being there" or the "Other Guys Shooting at you"? If it was the latter then your complaint was with them not your own people... If it was the former then why were you there being a volunteer and all??? Especially if you disagreed with the war? The Hazardous Duty Bonus?One thing is correct, being shot at certainly does get your attention, as I personally know!
However, just to set the record straight, having seen war up close and personal like, I don't want it! Especially not for my people! But, and here is where we really diverge, If it is necessary then delaying it or doing it by the halves only makes it much worse in the end (The whole South East Asia thing)...
So I would much rather not do it, but if we have to, then Lets get it on and not by the halves and if we have a choice in the other guy's back yard not mine!
I also trust Dubya and my government to make the case (and they have to me at least) about the necessity...The Germans and the French don't agree.
I wonder what their reasons might be?Lets see IIRC the Germans sold the Iraqis lots of the suspect Chemical and Biological Equipment and the place was over-run by German Construction Companies working for a premium and after WW2 a lot of refugee Nazi military types went to Baghdad to hide!
The French sold them the Osirak Nuclear Weapons Factory/Reactor at about %400 of the going rate for similar facilities in the west and appear to be betting on Oil Trade concessions with Iraq...
(We at least have some of our own Oil as does the UK)
Hope they like $50/gal. gas if they've bet wrong on this? Besides Iraq is Rabidly anti-Israeli and we just know the Countries that brought you "Le Affair Dreyfuss" and the Holocaust couldn't possibly still subscribe to those prejudices? Could they?Unwarranted attacks on the German and French Governments and leaders on my part? Offensive to Europeans?
Since many of these same people feel perfectly justified in questioning the Motives of my Government, President and Fellow Citizens and Ascribing Cynical and Crass Financial Motives to them....
I feel it is perfectly correct and only fair for me to apply the same standards to them and their Governments!
Don't attack me for the same thing you are doing!>>>> Me? I will,if for a just cause,as it is my democratic right,and in my opinion this proposed venture is notSince I am a retired officer with 26 years Federal Service I am subject to recall at the pleasure of the President. Whether to serve or not is a mute point for me... I made that decision a long time ago! Its a matter of Honor! Something most people on the left don't seem to understand IMO!As far as your statement "if for a just cause"...
I wonder what your definition of a just cause is???
An attack on you or your family's persons or property????
If the likes of Saddam get that far then it will because of your friends and the likes of the "Axis of Weasel" standing in the way... Just like Our Isolationists, Neville Chamberlain and the League of Nations in the run up to WW2....I have a clear conscience do you?
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 97

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davereageCharter Member · 526 posts

RE: Military Movements.

/ political views rant onOk, I really hate to go off topic, but there are a few things I need to address. Let me preface by saying I'm not anti American (they are afterall Canada' closest ally and our biggest trading partner), but there are some policies / comments above I must comment on:>>>> "Perhaps if you,and your country really valued democracy,instead of trying to ram your version of it down everybody's throat."I'm democratic,and if you don't agree I'll bomb you",things would go better for the US"This is so true. The US goes around trying to force its values on others. It s concerned about Iraq's Nuclear Weapons program, so what do they do, threaten that they might use tactical nukes. Seems very hypocritical to me.>> So our liberation of the Iraqi people and Afghanistan is "ram your version of it(Democracy) down everybody's throat" ? You are "liberating" the Afgahnis simply because Bin Laden is based there. Before September 11th the US didn't give a rats posterior about the plight of people in Afghanistan. Same with Iraq, if they didn't have oil (and if the Bush family didn't have a gruge against Saddam), the US wouldn't be trying to liberate the Iraqi's either. Oh yeah, and just how are you going to liberate the Iraqi's by dropping bombs on them?Let me wrap up by saying that I am not necessarily against a war on Iraq, but no war should take place unless the UN inspectors find proof Saddam's up to no good, and the UN goes in collectively. The US has no business going in alone, acting as the police of the world, forcing their policies and values on everyone else. George Bush is acting like a bully, no question about it.You think terrorists are after the US now? If the US goes into Iraq alone (or with the UK, whatever), I can almost guarantee you will see terrorist attacks increase.Finally, although I was not alive during the Vietnam War, this seems eerily similar. If the US invades Iraq, there will be massive protests, and I'm afraid, massive casualties. If troops attempt to invade Baghdad, you will see Iraqi civilians - women and children included - everywhere armed with rifles. How will it look when US soldiers have to start shooting children?I'm afraid to say that it will be America's arrogance that is ultimately its undoing./ political views rant off

Dave Reage,
somewhere near the end of CN's Dartmouth Sub

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-03 AT 00:45 AM (EDT)

>/ political views rant on
>
>Ok, I really hate to go off topic, but there are a few
>things I need to address. Let me preface by saying I'm not
>anti American (they are afterall Canada' closest ally and
>our biggest trading partner), but there are some policies /
>comments above I must comment on:
>
>>>>> "Perhaps if you,and your country really valued democracy,instead of trying to ram your version of it down everybody's throat."I'm democratic,and if you don't agree I'll bomb you",things would go better for the US"
>
>This is so true. The US goes around trying to force its
>values on others. It s concerned about Iraq's Nuclear
>Weapons program, so what do they do, threaten that they
>might use tactical nukes. Seems very hypocritical to me.
>I knew we screwed up when we let all the draft dodgers from my generation run away to Canada!
Apparently they multiplied while they were up there!
Looks like they've a good start on ruining a pretty nice place!Where Did the US Government threaten to use Tactical Nukes on Iraq?
Can you provide me a quote from an Official Source where we are threatening 1st use?
I thought not!
Refusal to take any option off the table is just smart negotiating!
However The only Official Position is the re-iteration of the long standing US Policy of over 50 years that if you use WMDs against us we will retaliate in kind!
That means if you use poison gas or Bio Weapons or Nukes we reserve the right to retaliate with anything in our arsenal!
Not necessarily the same exact weapon, But "In Kind"!
In other words another Weapon of Mass Destruction of our choice...>>> So our liberation of the Iraqi people and Afghanistan is "ram your version of it(Democracy) down everybody's throat" ?
>
>You are "liberating" the Afgahnis simply because Bin Laden
>is based there. Before September 11th the US didn't give a
>rats posterior about the plight of people in Afghanistan.
>Same with Iraq, if they didn't have oil (and if the Bush
>family didn't have a gruge against Saddam), the US wouldn't
>be trying to liberate the Iraqi's either. Oh yeah, and just
>how are you going to liberate the Iraqi's by dropping bombs
>on them? OK, you know this for a fact? How?
Or did your local version of "Pravda" or what ever left wing rag you read tell you that! Try reading something Right Wing for Balance!
And why would you give more credence to that theory, which by the way is the Official Iraqi position and was the original Taliban position than to the policy statements of the US Government????
Possibly you think Saddam has more veracity than Dubya????
Who do you think armed and supported the Afghani's in their war for independence from the Soviets? France? Those were CIA and US-SF guys on the Ground with the Mujahadden not the DGS or La Legion!
The mistake we made was not staying with them after they won and helping them develop a democracy!
That mistake won't happen again!BTW, Its not only the Bush family that has a Grudge against Saddam since he tried to Assassinate Bush the elder! The entire US Government including Billary's administration was a mite peeved over that one...
In Fact, I fully expect to wake up some morning to see Pictures on the Television of the US Rangers and/or the SAS hauling Saddam in front of the World Court for "Crimes against Humanity"!
Which by the way is what they charged the Nazis with before the hung them!
Failing that a "smart bomb" is inserted in his rectum by a Predator Drone or a F117 Stealth Fighter thus saving us all a lot of blood sweat and tears...
I'm sure in the Middle East they are all hoping one of his Generals do it to him! Like he did it to his predecessor!>
>Let me wrap up by saying that I am not necessarily against a
>war on Iraq, but no war should take place unless the UN
>inspectors find proof Saddam's up to no good, and the UN
>goes in collectively. The US has no business going in
>alone, acting as the police of the world, forcing their
>policies and values on everyone else. George Bush is acting
>like a bully, no question about it.
>Did you think that up all by your self?
You realize of course that the existing 17 UN Resolutions dating back over 10 years do not require the Inspectors to Prove that Saddam is hiding WMDs?
Those resolutions require Saddam to prove he is not by accounting for every one and all material used in their construction and proving their destruction, Incontrovertibly!
We have every business going in alone or anyway we want to!
We were attacked and are threatened by those people, not you!
However, I note that almost all of the 9/11 terrorists snuck in via Canada! Since we trusted you, up until now we have felt no need to police or control our borders with you! However Your government took the RCMP off line and forgot to tell us... Hell, there are even Al-Queda textbooks advocating entering the US through Canada since there are so few Immigration controls in Canada and an Open Border with the US...
And for the adventurous among them they could pay drug runners from Latin America to sneak them in...
After all those drug boys have a vested interest in de-stabilizing the US.. Makes it harder to stop them!
>You think terrorists are after the US now? If the US goes
>into Iraq alone (or with the UK, whatever), I can almost
>guarantee you will see terrorist attacks increase.
>Not if they are all dead!
And most of us are willing to take some action and to see what comes rather than wait cowering under our beds!>Finally, although I was not alive during the Vietnam War,
>this seems eerily similar. If the US invades Iraq, there
>will be massive protests, and I'm afraid, massive
>casualties. If troops attempt to invade Baghdad, you will
>see Iraqi civilians - women and children included -
>everywhere armed with rifles. How will it look when US
>soldiers have to start shooting children?
>Ah yes I remember Vietnam personally...
Looking at all those pictures of ships full of Canadian Grain in Haiphong Harbor, Canadian ships transporting ammunition and "medical" supplies to North Vietnam! And the idiots on our streets protesting what they didn't understand and spitting on us in the Military...
Now before anyone jumps down my throat let me explain a little "real history" here....
The original theory of intervention in SE Asia by President Kennedy and later thoroughly corrupted by Pres. Johnson was to prevent the wholesale conversion of the area to communistic control.
This was almost 10 years after Pres. Eisenhower declined to save the French at Dien Ben Phu (sp) after they got themselves into a mess there due to their General Military Prowess and Great Tactical Vision (Course that didn't matter to them as it was only La Legion dieing there not "real" Frenchmen) not to mention their totally corrupt mismanagement of the Country and the reneging on the promises made to Uncle Ho by all the allies including the "Free French" concerning freedom for his country if he fought the Japanese and Vichy Occupation of his country!
Hey wait, I thought the French never asked for our help????
This so called "Domino Theory" was later derided!
But lets examine what happened after the fall of S. Vietnam? Where Saigon, now Ho Chi Min City, was totally depopulated. Also In Laos and Cambodia for example? Mass killings and political instability for decades.
(hell they even made a movie about the Killing fields years later)
The Vietnamese War as a big mistake and a disaster for us.
However, Militarily we've learned from our mistakes!
Ever hear of the Powell doctrine?
Very simply it says if you're gonna do it, do it all the way!
Don't put American troops at risk with out a clear goal and exit strategy!
After the Gulf War in '91 that was amended to add don't lose sight of the military goals over an artificial Political or PR objective!
We quit to soon in-order to make an artificial 100hr deadline and because there was concern at our highest political levels not to appear to be "Piling on" and because of Back channel assurances from Saddam to lay off the Kurds, minorities, Israel and the acquisition of WMDs...
"Fool me once and shame on you fool me twice and shame on me!" about sums up the lack of credibility the Iraqis and their apologists have in Washington and the US in general...
IMHO Hans Blix is either a well intentioned fool or Saddam has pictures of him with livestock! He thinks and is on record as saying, He can prevent a war by putting the inspectors on the ground in the way of the Americans and dragging the inspection out!
He's Swedish isn't he? Aren't they the ones who were selling Iron Ore, Coal and Heavy Water to the Nazis??????
>I'm afraid to say that it will be America's arrogance that
>is ultimately its undoing.
>I'm glad from you position of vast worldly experience that you consider Americans Arrogant!
Let me turn that around a bit and ask you how arrogant do you think you appear to us trying to dictate how and whether we should defend ourselves?????? And lastly you better hope we don't get undone or you personally will be involuntarily learning the Taliban Catechism!>/ political views rant off Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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hemoCharter Member · 20 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>However, I note that almost all of the 9/11 terrorists snuck
>in via Canada! Since we trusted you, up until now we have
>felt no need to police or control our borders with you!
>However Your government took the RCMP off line and forgot to
>tell us... Hell, there are even Al-Queda textbooks
>advocating entering the US through Canada since there are so
>few Immigration controls in Canada and an Open Border with
>the US...
>Chuck Schneider
>(Virtual) CEO Chuck,
Sorry, I can't let that urban legend go unchallenged. None of the 9/11 terrorists entered through Canada. I will plead guilty though on Ressam trying to get into Washington state for millenium madness.As to my proof: Council on Foreign Relations
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/security/borders.html
which states:
"Did any of the September 11 terrorists sneak into the United States from Canada or Mexico?
No. The INS has concluded that all 19 of the hijackers entered the United States on legal visas, although three had visas that had expired. For years, experts have discussed an “entry-exit” system that would track foreigners and identify those who overstay their visas. Congress has mandated such a system, but it is years away from being implemented. At present, the INS does not have much staff to devote to removing even those known to have overstayed their visas."Chris

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

OK My misinformation and my apologies to the Candadians!
Sneaking in through Canada still remains a concern and is still in the Al-Queda handbook!Chuck Schneider
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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Though I would observe in my own defense that the Council on Foreign Relations is not considered a Hotbed of Objectivity in some circles...
And you'll note they do report some "50 known terrorist organizations " have cells in Canada and further an unspecified (meaning I can't find the count at the moment) number of attacks and aborted attacks were launched against the US from Canadian Soil by various terrorist organizations!Chuck Schneider
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davereageCharter Member · 526 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>I knew we screwed up when we let all the draft dodgers from
>my generation run away to Canada!
>Apparently they multiplied while they were up there!
>Looks like they've a good start on ruining a pretty nice
>place! Well no one from my family has any American blood in them, so I'm not descended from a draft dodger if that's what you mean. Irish and German background if you must know.Also, please, let's not get personal. I did not get personal with you, I'd appreciate the same treatment.>Where Did the US Government threaten to use Tactical Nukes
>on Iraq? Bush said it a month or two ago, don't remember the exact source, but it was on the news here.>Can you provide me a quote from an Official Source where we
>are threatening 1st use?
>I thought not!
>Refusal to take any option off the table is just smart
>negotiating!
>However The only Official Position is the re-iteration of
>the long standing US Policy of over 50 years that if you use
>WMDs against us we will retaliate in kind!
>That means if you use poison gas or Bio Weapons or Nukes we
>reserve the right to retaliate with anything in our arsenal!
>Not necessarily the same exact weapon, But "In Kind"!
>In other words another Weapon of Mass Destruction of our
>choice... If Iraq does it first, go for it.
>
>>>> So our liberation of the Iraqi people and Afghanistan is "ram your version of it(Democracy) down everybody's throat" ?
>>
>>You are "liberating" the Afgahnis simply because Bin Laden
>>is based there. Before September 11th the US didn't give a
>>rats posterior about the plight of people in Afghanistan.
>>Same with Iraq, if they didn't have oil (and if the Bush
>>family didn't have a gruge against Saddam), the US wouldn't
>>be trying to liberate the Iraqi's either. Oh yeah, and just
>>how are you going to liberate the Iraqi's by dropping bombs
>>on them?
>
>OK, you know this for a fact? How? What was the US doing for Afghani's before 9/11? Nothing. I'd like to see evidence to the contrary.>Or did your local version of "Pravda" or what ever left wing
>rag you read tell you that! Try reading something Right Wing
>for Balance! Whoa whoa, again, I'll ask that this not get personal. I am definetly not left wing. Left wing politicians (the NDP here in Canada) drive me nuts. I have never protested anything, in fact, I'm usually the one shouting "get a job you freakin hippies" whenever I see people protesting anything on the news. My undergraduate degree is a Bachelor of Commerce, if there's a more right wing degree I'd like to hear it. In fact, taking an anti-war stance is very far outside my character, I'm normally the person saying "bomb them all". But that just shows how strongly I feel about this.I've learned this by taking the initiative to learn about things outside of my country beyond US government propaganda.>And why would you give more credence to that theory, which
>by the way is the Official Iraqi position and was the
>original Taliban position than to the policy statements of
>the US Government????
>Possibly you think Saddam has more veracity than Dubya????Definetly not saying Saddam is a good person. I think he needs to be assasinated or removed from power. But Bush is still a war mongering idiot. His daddy buys him an MBA from Harvard (I'd like to see anyone else get into a Harvard MBA program with a C average), his daddy gives him an oil company (which he proceeds to drive into the ground, no pun intended). Now he's the president. Great....The reason I have trouble with the policy statements of the US is that Colin Powell is the only high up person in the US Government that I think is trustworthy.

>Who do you think armed and supported the Afghani's in their
>war for independence from the Soviets? France? Those were
>CIA and US-SF guys on the Ground with the Mujahadden not the
>DGS or La Legion!
>The mistake we made was not staying with them after they won
>and helping them develop a democracy!
>That mistake won't happen again! True. But the US also funded Iraq during their war on Iran.>BTW, Its not only the Bush family that has a Grudge against
>Saddam since he tried to Assassinate Bush the elder! The
>entire US Government including Billary's administration was
>a mite peeved over that one...
>In Fact, I fully expect to wake up some morning to see
>Pictures on the Television of the US Rangers and/or the SAS
>hauling Saddam in front of the World Court for "Crimes
>against Humanity"! I'd be the first to cheer when this happens.>Which by the way is what they charged the Nazis with before
>the hung them!
>Failing that a "smart bomb" is inserted in his rectum by a
>Predator Drone or a F117 Stealth Fighter thus saving us all
>a lot of blood sweat and tears...
>I'm sure in the Middle East they are all hoping one of his
>Generals do it to him! Like he did it to his predecessor! That would be a fitting end to Saddam's life IMHO.>>
>>Let me wrap up by saying that I am not necessarily against a
>>war on Iraq, but no war should take place unless the UN
>>inspectors find proof Saddam's up to no good, and the UN
>>goes in collectively. The US has no business going in
>>alone, acting as the police of the world, forcing their
>>policies and values on everyone else. George Bush is acting
>>like a bully, no question about it.
>>
>
>Did you think that up all by your self? Yes I thought this up all by myself, do you think I'm an idiot just because my views are a little different?>You realize of course that the existing 17 UN Resolutions
>dating back over 10 years do not require the Inspectors to
>Prove that Saddam is hiding WMDs?
>Those resolutions require Saddam to prove he is not by
>accounting for every one and all material used in their
>construction and proving their destruction,
>Incontrovertibly!
>We have every business going in alone or anyway we want to! If you want most of the rest of the world to hate the US, go right ahead. My big problem is that Bush wants to go in without proper proof.>We were attacked and are threatened by those people, not
>you! Canadians died too during 9/11. Four Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan because an American pilot dropped a smart bomb on them.>However, I note that almost all of the 9/11 terrorists snuck
>in via Canada! Since we trusted you, up until now we have
>felt no need to police or control our borders with you! It is not Canadians Americans should be worried about, it's people using Canada as a gateway. I'll be the first to admit our immigration policies need to be stronger.>However Your government took the RCMP off line and forgot to
>tell us... Hell, there are even Al-Queda textbooks
>advocating entering the US through Canada since there are so
>few Immigration controls in Canada and an Open Border with
>the US... You seem to blame the open border solely on Canada? Both countries enjoyed having an un-guarded border, makes trade much easier.>And for the adventurous among them they could pay drug
>runners from Latin America to sneak them in...
>After all those drug boys have a vested interest in
>de-stabilizing the US.. Makes it harder to stop them!
>
>
>>You think terrorists are after the US now? If the US goes
>>into Iraq alone (or with the UK, whatever), I can almost
>>guarantee you will see terrorist attacks increase.
>>
>
>Not if they are all dead! Goos luck getting them all.>And most of us are willing to take some action and to see
>what comes rather than wait cowering under our beds! I guess that's fundamental difference between Canadians and Americans, we believe in Peacekeeping over enforcement. However, if the US does go into Iraq, I can guarantee that Canadians will be there too.
>
>>Finally, although I was not alive during the Vietnam War,
>>this seems eerily similar. If the US invades Iraq, there
>>will be massive protests, and I'm afraid, massive
>>casualties. If troops attempt to invade Baghdad, you will
>>see Iraqi civilians - women and children included -
>>everywhere armed with rifles. How will it look when US
>>soldiers have to start shooting children?
>>
>
>Ah yes I remember Vietnam personally...
>Looking at all those pictures of ships full of Canadian
>Grain in Haiphong Harbor, Canadian ships transporting
>ammunition and "medical" supplies to North Vietnam! And the
>idiots on our streets protesting what they didn't understand
>and spitting on us in the Military... I agree that spitting on military people is disgraceful, especially considering what they went through.>Now before anyone jumps down my throat let me explain a
>little "real history" here....
>The original theory of intervention in SE Asia by President
>Kennedy and later thoroughly corrupted by Pres. Johnson was
>to prevent the wholesale conversion of the area to
>communistic control.
>This was almost 10 years after Pres. Eisenhower declined to
>save the French at Dien Ben Phu (sp) after they got
>themselves into a mess there due to their General Military
>Prowess and Great Tactical Vision (Course that didn't matter
>to them as it was only La Legion dieing there not "real"
>Frenchmen) not to mention their totally corrupt
>mismanagement of the Country and the reneging on the
>promises made to Uncle Ho by all the allies including the
>"Free French" concerning freedom for his country if he
>fought the Japanese and Vichy Occupation of his country!
>Hey wait, I thought the French never asked for our help????
>This so called "Domino Theory" was later derided!
>But lets examine what happened after the fall of S. Vietnam?
>Where Saigon, now Ho Chi Min City, was totally depopulated.
>Also In Laos and Cambodia for example? Mass killings and
>political instability for decades.
>(hell they even made a movie about the Killing fields years
>later)
>The Vietnamese War as a big mistake and a disaster for us.
>However, Militarily we've learned from our mistakes!
>Ever hear of the Powell doctrine?
>Very simply it says if you're gonna do it, do it all the
>way!
>Don't put American troops at risk with out a clear goal and
>exit strategy!That's a good plan.

>After the Gulf War in '91 that was amended to add don't lose
>sight of the military goals over an artificial Political or
>PR objective!
>We quit to soon in-order to make an artificial 100hr
>deadline and because there was concern at our highest
>political levels not to appear to be "Piling on" and because
>of Back channel assurances from Saddam to lay off the Kurds,
>minorities, Israel and the acquisition of WMDs...
>"Fool me once and shame on you fool me twice and shame on
>me!" about sums up the lack of credibility the Iraqis and
>their apologists have in Washington and the US in general...I agree that Saddam is not to be trusted. I just think it should be possible to assasinate him or remove him from power without a full scale invasion. Between the CIA and the Mossad, not to mention British SAS, this should be possible.

>IMHO Hans Blix is either a well intentioned fool or Saddam
>has pictures of him with livestock! He thinks and is on
>record as saying, He can prevent a war by putting the
>inspectors on the ground in the way of the Americans and
>dragging the inspection out!
>He's Swedish isn't he? Aren't they the ones who were selling
>Iron Ore, Coal and Heavy Water to the Nazis??????
>
He's still hopeful for a peaceful resolution, but I agree, he needs to get his a$$ in gear and come back with a sensible report.
>
>>I'm afraid to say that it will be America's arrogance that
>>is ultimately its undoing.
>>
>
>I'm glad from you position of vast worldly experience that
>you consider Americans Arrogant! How do you know I have no international experience?Well actually, I've spent time working for Tourism in my home province, I worked in a call centre that gave out travel information, made reservations, planned trips etc.... Of all the people I talked to, the Americans were the most arrogant and least knowledgeable as a whole. Even people who were planning on visiting Canada, were quite insulting: "how much does it snow there in july", "we're going to be in Halifax and want to pop over to Calgary for supper, what would a cab ride cost?" just to name a few examples.I've spent time travelling and studying in Europe including places such as London, Paris and Belfast. Every time I travelled, I've heard people say "good, you're not American" when they see the Canadian lapel pin I wear at all times overseas. Not to mention the comments I've heard from American tourists: In France: "doesn't anyone speak English here? What kind of country is this?". I have more examples but this post is getting long enough as it is.Beyond this, you don't need to look any farther for arrogance than dubya. He has bascially said that American Policy is stronger than UN policy, and he will do what he wants, the UN be damned. If this isn't arrogant, I don't know what is.>Let me turn that around a bit and ask you how arrogant do
>you think you appear to us trying to dictate how and whether
>we should defend ourselves?????? Someone needs to provide an outside view, especially when the American foreign policy will affect everyone in the world.
>
>And lastly you better hope we don't get undone or you
>personally will be involuntarily learning the Taliban
>Catechism!
>
Me too, but I really think the US government needs to stop pushing people around, maybe concentrate on wiping out tha Taliban instead of worrying about Iraq.I'd like to finish by reiterating that I don't appreciate the personal attacks on my character found above. I am an educated person, I have one degree and am working toward my Master's, so I don't appreciate being treated like I'm a moronic little kid just because my views differ from yours. Debate is good, but is useless if it gets personal.

Dave Reage,
somewhere near the end of CN's Dartmouth Sub

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-03 AT 08:33 PM (EDT)

"Also, please, let's not get personal. I did not get personal with you, I'd appreciate the same treatment~!"Agreed!BTW, I'm of German-Irish Ancestry also!Concerning use of tactical Nukes...."Bush said it a month or two ago, don't remember the exact source, but it was on the news here"Again can you provide a reference?
As that is contrary to Published US Policy...
Don't confuse our in-kind retaliation policy
(Which may have been what Bush was talking about)
with 1st use! Which is not our policy!
I personally think it's good that he has them guessing however!
I'll agree that tourists are the most arrogant SOBs you can imagine!
Living and working in the Metro DC area as I do we see a lot of them!(Note I didn't specify which brand of tourist! I think its all of them)My personal favorite in the Arrogance department are French-Canadian Males!! Must be that Gallic culture thing, Eh?My personal theory revolves around People in a strange setting and being unsure of themselves tend to talk louder and act more aggressive to compensate... Being told by everyone back home to not drink the water and they're all out to cheat you doesn't help either!"In France: "doesn't anyone speak English here? What kind of country is this?". I have more examples but this post is getting long enough as it is" Bad example, the French won't talk to you if you don't speak perfect French... IMO, they have raised cultural arrogance to an unheard of level for a Western Society... Note I'm leaving the Japanese and the Mainland Chinese out of this discussion as they are in a different plane of existence when it comes to cultural arrogance...FWIW, I believe that current figures show that most Americans (of the US Variety) never leave the states so have little direct exposure to external cultures/languages... A lot of us take at least 1 foreign language in high school but forget about it due to disuse as we grow older... Except for Spanish.
We are annoyed when immigrants to our country refuse to learn english (there is a whole movement out there to force the government to do its business only in English or more properly American - as a way of forcing some type of assimilation and thus avoid having our own Quebec) So I wonder why we are annoyed when the French won't speak english to us even when they can? After all, almost everyone else will! If you are in the tourist industry any where else in the world other than France you rapidly learn the Language and Customs of the People who are visiting you if you wish to make money from them!
And BTW, I think if we are arrogant we learned it honestly from the British/UK.... Ask the Indians or the Irish or even the Scots about that some time....
IIRC WOG is not an American word... "Every time I travelled, I've heard people say "good, you're not American" when they see the Canadian lapel pin I wear at all times overseas"Is that before or after they hold their hand out for a tip and realize it might be substantially lower since you aren't an American???? BTW, I thought you guys were Americans too?Concerning your appearance of arrogance in dictating our defense to us,"Someone needs to provide an outside view, especially when the American foreign policy will affect everyone in the world"May I ask Who appointed you?
We have plenty of our own people doing that!
Ever hear of Tom Daschle or Nancy Pilosi or Ted Kennedy or Hillary Clinton??? To name a few!
Again it appears you are telling us how to defend ourselves...
Along with conducting ad-homonym attacks on George Bush!
Can you prove any of the allegations you've made about him?
I personally don't believe that is how you consciously intended it to sound...
But that is the way it comes across! And it is resented!"but I really think the US government needs to stop pushing people around, maybe concentrate on wiping out tha Taliban instead of worrying about Iraq."That's the point! Our government believes that dealing with Iraq is a further strike against the Taliban!"I'd like to finish by reiterating that I don't appreciate the personal attacks on my character found above. I am an educated person, I have one degree and am working toward my Master's, so I don't appreciate being treated like I'm a moronic little kid just because my views differ from yours"It has nothing to do with your views differing from mine...
And every thing to do with you presenting the same views as a certain "Moronic Little Kid" (Your Phrase not mine) on here...
Your previous post(s) on this matter would not lead me to believe that you are as educated as you are!
You might want to note that I take it very personal When you or any "on-us citizen" impugn my countries' and my presidents' motives and make unfounded character attacks against us and him! Makes me cranky!
(Note I even defended Billary in a different forum way back when against some Europeans who were off base I felt in their criticism of her/him - some sexist BS about who had the bigger johnson IIRC)

Chuck Schneider
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davereageCharter Member · 526 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-03 AT 11:05 PM (EDT)

>"Also, please, let's not get personal. I did not get
>personal with you, I'd appreciate the same treatment~!"
>
>Agreed!
>
>BTW, I'm of German-Irish Ancestry also!
>
>Concerning use of tactical Nukes....
>
>"Bush said it a month or two ago, don't remember the exact
>source, but it was on the news here"
>
>Again can you provide a reference?
>As that is contrary to Published US Policy...
>Don't confuse our in-kind retaliation policy
>(Which may have been what Bush was talking about)
>with 1st use! Which is not our policy!
>I personally think it's good that he has them guessing
>however! It's quite possible that I heard that policy wrong.
>
>
>I'll agree that tourists are the most arrogant SOBs you can
>imagine!
>Living and working in the Metro DC area as I do we see a lot
>of them!(Note I didn't specify which brand of tourist! I
>think its all of them)
>
>My personal favorite in the Arrogance department are
>French-Canadian Males!! Must be that Gallic culture thing,
>Eh? Hehe, that is kind of true.
>
>My personal theory revolves around People in a strange
>setting and being unsure of themselves tend to talk louder
>and act more aggressive to compensate... Being told by
>everyone back home to not drink the water and they're all
>out to cheat you doesn't help either!
>
>"In France: "doesn't anyone speak English here? What kind of
>country is this?". I have more examples but this post is
>getting long enough as it is"
>
>Bad example, the French won't talk to you if you don't speak
>perfect French... IMO, they have raised cultural arrogance
>to an unheard of level for a Western Society... Note I'm
>leaving the Japanese and the Mainland Chinese out of this
>discussion as they are in a different plane of existence
>when it comes to cultural arrogance... That is true to an extent with the French. I speak French fairly well, but I speak Canadian French (a combination of Quebecois and Acadian French) so the accent was very different. Once I was able to get past the accent problems, I found the French to be very accomodating in trying to understand what I was saying (it's just like any of us trying to understand someone speaking English with a heavy accent, even the fully bilingual guys had troubles)
>
>FWIW, I believe that current figures show that most
>Americans (of the US Variety) never leave the states so have
>little direct exposure to external cultures/languagesI think that's a bit of a problem in itself.>... A
>lot of us take at least 1 foreign language in high school
>but forget about it due to disuse as we grow older... Except
>for Spanish.
>We are annoyed when immigrants to our country refuse to
>learn english (there is a whole movement out there to force
>the government to do its business only in English or more
>properly American - as a way of forcing some type of
>assimilation and thus avoid having our own Quebec) So I
>wonder why we are annoyed when the French won't speak
>english to us even when they can? After all, almost everyone
>else will! If you are in the tourist industry any where else
>in the world other than France you rapidly learn the
>Language and Customs of the People who are visiting you if
>you wish to make money from them! Most people in France honestly do not speak English, with the exception (I found) of people in highly touristy areas (and its not their language, so why should they have to?).People in many parts of Quebec will speak English to you.>
>And BTW, I think if we are arrogant we learned it honestly
>from the British/UK.... Ask the Indians or the Irish or even
>the Scots about that some time....
>IIRC WOG is not an American word... Yes, I could agree there to a point. Although last time I was in England, it was after spending two weeks in Ireland, so everyone seems arrogant compared to the Irish >"Every time I travelled, I've heard people say "good, you're
>not American" when they see the Canadian lapel pin I wear at
>all times overseas"
>
>Is that before or after they hold their hand out for a tip
>and realize it might be substantially lower since you aren't
>an American???? BTW, I thought you guys were Americans too? I think this illustrates the arrogance I was talking about perfectly.
>
>Concerning your appearance of arrogance in dictating our
>defense to us,
>
>"Someone needs to provide an outside view, especially when
>the American foreign policy will affect everyone in the
>world"
>
>May I ask Who appointed you? Nobody. But I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone.>We have plenty of our own people doing that!
>Ever hear of Tom Daschle or Nancy Pilosi or Ted Kennedy or
>Hillary Clinton??? To name a few!
>Again it appears you are telling us how to defend
>ourselves... I think I have a right to an opinion on this matter, since as your closest ally it will no doubt affect me.>Along with conducting ad-homonym attacks on George Bush!
>Can you prove any of the allegations you've made about him? The info's out there if you look for it. It's stuff my friends have come across that someone dug up on him. >I personally don't believe that is how you consciously
>intended it to sound...
>But that is the way it comes across! And it is resented! It may have sounded worse than I meant it to, I typed that message after spending 10 hours doing research at school and an hour on a bus commuting home, so I was a little cranky.>"but I really think the US government needs to stop pushing
>people around, maybe concentrate on wiping out tha Taliban
>instead of worrying about Iraq."
>
>That's the point! Our government believes that dealing with
>Iraq is a further strike against the Taliban! Maybe, but it seems to me they should finish the job in Afghanistan first. The link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda is debatable.
>
>"I'd like to finish by reiterating that I don't appreciate
>the personal attacks on my character found above. I am an
>educated person, I have one degree and am working toward my
>Master's, so I don't appreciate being treated like I'm a
>moronic little kid just because my views differ from yours"
>
>It has nothing to do with your views differing from mine...
> And every thing to do with you presenting the same views as
>a certain "Moronic Little Kid" (Your Phrase not mine) on
>here...
>Your previous post(s) on this matter would not lead me to
>believe that you are as educated as you are!
>You might want to note that I take it very personal When you
>or any "on-us citizen" impugn my countries' and my
>presidents' motives and make unfounded character attacks
>against us and him! Makes me cranky! If the US is going to be so forceful in bossing people around, and forcing its policies on others (or attempting too, my Prime Minister has stood up to Bush somewhat so far), then it stands to reason that people are going to object to these policies (and the man behind them). You seem to be of the opinion that US policy is the US's business and no one elses (please correct me if I'm wrong), but the truth is that since US policy will affect everyone around the world, it is everyone's business.I am the type of person who speaks my mind, especially when I eally get going on something, sometimes witha little less tact than I should probably use.>(Note I even defended Billary in a different forum way back
>when against some Europeans who were off base I felt in
>their criticism of her/him - some sexist BS about who had
>the bigger johnson IIRC) Yeah, I agree that stuff like that has no place here. Bill Clinton may have had, er, lady problems, but I think he was one of the best Presidents the US has ever seen. I had total trust in Clinton. If he was in power now, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about the whole thing. When they wanted to impeach him, I couldn't believe they would shoot themselves in the foot like that. But that's another whole can of worms probably left unopened at this juncture PS I'm pleasantly surprised the moderator has let this thread go on, it's really, really far off topic, but it's a good discussion.

Dave Reage,
somewhere near the end of CN's Dartmouth Sub

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

OK Dave...
This is almost fun.
Really makes you think and focus your arguments!>>FWIW, I believe that current figures show that most
>>Americans (of the US Variety) never leave the states so have
>>little direct exposure to external cultures/languages
>
>I think that's a bit of a problem in itself.
>How so?
I'll go back to Europe if you pay for it...
Otherwise I can't afford it since neither the US Military nor any employer is paying my travel expenses anymore!
I'm also too old to do the Biking/Hiking/Hostel thing!>Most people in France honestly do not speak English, with
>the exception (I found) of people in highly touristy areas
>(and its not their language, so why should they have to?). They don't have to... That's also my point!
Except for the ones (and this is also my point) in "touristy" occupations like Cab Driver, Hotel Staff, Restaurant Staff!
Who expect to make money of tourists who do speak only English!I personally would prefer to tour where I speak the Language...
So Club Med is out for me! I think I'm over their age limit anyway!>People in many parts of Quebec will speak English to you. And many won't and you know they have to know it Canada being officially Bilingual and all!
However, None of my business as I am not Canadian, but I am curious and don't understand how some Canadiens/Quebecois expect the Anglos to learn French but absolutely refuse to learn English! Or if they know it to speak it! One of you guys from north of the 49th could try to explain that to me some day!>>and realize it might be substantially lower since you aren't
>>an American???? BTW, I thought you guys were Americans too?
>
>I think this illustrates the arrogance I was talking about
>perfectly. How so? You are Americans (From the Western Hemisphere) are you not?
Oh do you mean my comment about the tip?
That is not my observation alone but one I heard repeatedly while in the UK and Europe! I think it has to do with the relative average income or some such I know the CanForces guys only got paid about half of what we did so were constantly "short"! And the guys from the RN got paid even less... We didn't mind since they were all our friends and you always share with your friends, right?
I do remember that the "Wait Staff" at the various Pubs and what not we frequented seemed to gravitate to the Amis much more than to the Canuks or Pommes! I always wrote that off to commercialism and never thought too much about it but I can see where the guys with less money would resent it.. And Face it a big part of the US culture is Brashness and agressiveness... Some people are put off by that!
Sorry, But I don't think you would like me much or respect me any more if I stood in a corner and hid my feelings behind a veneer of politeness! That of course is a stereo type... The RN officers were mostly like that and we kinda looked at them as wusses until we learned better... The RN enlisted guys were at least as Rude and Crude as we were... Sometimes more so!>Nobody. But I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone.
>I think I have a right to an opinion on this matter, since
>as your closest ally it will no doubt affect me.Absolutely, as long as you remember the final decision is still ours!
>>Along with conducting ad-homonym attacks on George Bush!
>>Can you prove any of the allegations you've made about him?
>The info's out there if you look for it. It's stuff my
>friends have come across that someone dug up on him.
>But did you read this yourself or just take your friends' word for it? BTW, The democratic (Liberal) Political operatives have been floating that disinformation for years....
BTW, There is not enough money to "Buy a Harvard MBA" he at least had to do some classwork... And just for arguments sake lets say it is true! JFK, remember him, came from the same background and had a similar academic record! Ditto for RFK and Teddy Kennedy got heaved out of prep-school for cheating IIRC... I think its the Son of the Idle rich syndrome! The important thing in my mind is that he straightened his life out and isn't the same person today... Unlike Billary! I don't think his daddy bought him an oil company or a baseball team... I think that was his own money as an heir to the Bush Family Trust... Just like the Kennedys and the Rockafellers...
Or do you in fairness want to give equal time to all the old stories about Joe Kennedy buying the Presidential election for Jack with the help of the Mafia?????? You either believe them both or believe neither! There is no more proof to either story than the other!>
>>"but I really think the US government needs to stop pushing
>>people around, maybe concentrate on wiping out tha Taliban
>>instead of worrying about Iraq."
>>
>>That's the point! Our government believes that dealing with
>>Iraq is a further strike against the Taliban!
>
>Maybe, but it seems to me they should finish the job in
>Afghanistan first. The link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda is
>debatable.
>>How do you want us to finish the Job in Afghanistan? We have deferred to the UN at their request (Or should I say Germany and France's Insistence) for the Nation Building Phase! In fact I believe the Germans are running Afghan internal security right now (They are in command)... Of course they won't venture outside of Kabul... so how much security is problematic... Out in the hills its still US/UK/Canadian troops doing the heavy lifting... Our military commanders (Yours-Mine-The UKs) have said that more troops out there would just get in the way.. that they are basically on a hunting expedition for the "Bad Guys"... BTW, did you realize that some of the Al-Qadia fugitives are being helped by Afghan War Lords who are resisting the Central Government in order to preserve their own personal power... Would you like to guess who is arming, supporting and encouraging these War-Lords?>If the US is going to be so forceful in bossing people
>around, and forcing its policies on others (or attempting
>too, my Prime Minister has stood up to Bush somewhat so
>far), then it stands to reason that people are going to
>object to these policies (and the man behind them). You
>seem to be of the opinion that US policy is the US's
>business and no one elses (please correct me if I'm wrong),
>but the truth is that since US policy will affect everyone
>around the world, it is everyone's business.
>So how do you propose to change our policies? We have already stated that we consider this a matter of our security and that we reserve the right to make our own decisions on those matters no matter what the rest of the world thinks... Since its not their a$$es on the line! You guys in Canada and the UK will get listened to much more closely and your opinions very seriously considered and given more weight than any one elses given the very close ties... However, when its down to the cutting we will make our own decision and Dubya is responsible to and for us alone! Period End of Story!>Bill Clinton may have had, er, lady problems,
Well actually that was the least of his problems though we do tend to take sexual harassment a lot more seriously here than in Europe.. Its a cultural thing... That alone under our laws would cause the removal from office of any other federal official! We're serious about it. Don't come here to work and think you can pat any woman at your work site or in the street on the ass or make lewd remarks to her and get away with it! Droit de Seigneur doesn't exist in our laws!
Bill's problems also included using his position to solicit sex from women looking for state and federal jobs or his help in getting them! Again our laws tend to frown on that kind of behavior in a Sr. Government Official. But his real problem was illicit campaign contributions from the Chinese Intelligence Services! Hard to prove since the people who had direct knowledge either died or went back to China! So they got him on the most serious charge they could.. Suborning Perjury in order to beat the Sexual Harassment Charges and Suits... >but I think he was one of the best Presidents the US has ever seen. You're one of the few.. Current polls indicate that only about 25% of US citizens have a favorable opinion of him today!
Did you know that over the weekend several newspapers broke the story that the CIA had knowledge of N.Korea cheating on their Nuclear Agreement with us in 1998 (Even though they now admit they cheated from the beginning) and Billary got on the Larry King show and denied he had any knowledge of that... There's a paper trail that he probably did... Since you can't prove he read his intelligence briefs.... or the Washington Post! But Dick Morris his former aid was on TV tonight and he basically said Billary was dissembling and parsing his words again (do you wonder why he has so little credibility left?) >I had total trust in Clinton. I do have a great deal for you on some property in the Everglades... Talk to me off-list about it!>If he was in power now, I'd feel a
>lot more comfortable about the whole thing. Why? Because he would have shopped his decision for personal gain or to protect his legacy and you wouldn't have seen any of this? At least not until the Axis of Evil got done with us and went for you!>When they >wanted to impeach him, I couldn't believe they would
>shoot themselves in the foot like that. Again you demonstrate your lack of command of the issues here!
IMO, He was saved by a last min. political deal with Trent Lott!
and that's probably why the rest of the republicans threw Lott to the Wolves over the Race Issue instead of making any attempt to save his political career... After all you didn't really believe the Democrats really believed all that stuff they were spewing after allowing Senator Byrd, who IIRC was a member of the KKK in his youth and did actually use the "N" word in public referring to our 2nd largest minority, to skate did you?
>But that's another whole
>can of worms probably left unopened at this juncture
>Too late I already jumped in!>PS I'm pleasantly surprised the moderator has let this
>thread go on, it's really, really far off topic, but it's a
>good discussion. The original thread was about not reporting Military Movements by Rail on this or any other Web Site....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 102

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davereageCharter Member · 526 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I think we're almost at the point of beating a dead horse, but there are just a few comments I would like to make:>>>FWIW, I believe that current figures show that most
>>>Americans (of the US Variety) never leave the states so have
>>>little direct exposure to external cultures/languages
>>
>>I think that's a bit of a problem in itself.
>>
>
>How so? Because it's really hard to truly learn about other countries, their cultures, their people, unless you visit that country. I feel that learning about foreign ways of living and learning about a country other than your own, should be an important part of anyone's education.>I'll go back to Europe if you pay for it... Me too >>Most people in France honestly do not speak English, with
>>the exception (I found) of people in highly touristy areas
>>(and its not their language, so why should they have to?).
>
>They don't have to... That's also my point!
>Except for the ones (and this is also my point) in
>"touristy" occupations like Cab Driver, Hotel Staff,
>Restaurant Staff!
>Who expect to make money of tourists who do speak only
>English! That's true, I did expect a few more people would speak English, but you learn to make do eventually.
>
>I personally would prefer to tour where I speak the
>Language... I'm possibly heading to Barcelona next year and my Spanish knowledge is nill.....this should be interesting.>>People in many parts of Quebec will speak English to you.
>
>And many won't and you know they have to know it Canada
>being officially Bilingual and all!
>However, None of my business as I am not Canadian, but I am
>curious and don't understand how some Canadiens/Quebecois
>expect the Anglos to learn French but absolutely refuse to
>learn English! Or if they know it to speak it! One of you
>guys from north of the 49th could try to explain that to me
>some day! It's kind of a tricky situation, but here goes. How much French is spoken to you largely depends on where you are. I don't know exactly the specifics of which parts largely speak which language, but I know that Montreal is mostly bilingual (you don't need to know French for anything other than signage) while Quebec city is mostly French speaking.It's really only useful for Anglos to learn French in a few areas (with a few exceptions, such as federal government jobs): Quebec (obviously), New Brunswick (the only bilingual province), and parts of Ontario (namely Ottawa). Outside of that, you'd have a hard time finding a person who speaks French. For the French, whenever they leave the above mentioned areas, they really need to learn how to speak some English because based on what I said above, there aren't many French speaking people in the rest of Canada. There are some, but they are the minority. So even though many Quebecers won't speak English to you (which is often true, they are just trying to preserve their language and culture), chances are that they know at least a little.>.. And
>Face it a big part of the US culture is Brashness and
>agressiveness... Some people are put off by that! That's a very interesting statement. In preparations for my trip to France, I read a French-English phrasebook by an American travel author. In the book there was a line saying something to the effect of "Americans think the French are rude because they are quiet and indifferent, the French think the Americans are rude because they are loud and demanding". I think that kind of reflects what you said.>>Nobody. But I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone.
>>I think I have a right to an opinion on this matter, since
>>as your closest ally it will no doubt affect me.
>
>Absolutely, as long as you remember the final decision is
>still ours! I just can't stress enough that I think it's very important that America consider how the rest of the world will take the decision. As basically the last superpower, America must use its power carefully.>>But that's another whole
>>can of worms probably left unopened at this juncture
>>
>
>Too late I already jumped in!
>
Can of worms closed and resealed...

Dave Reage,
somewhere near the end of CN's Dartmouth Sub

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Brad 110Member since Aug-31-02 · 235 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>Because it's really hard to truly learn about other
>countries, their cultures, their people, unless you visit
>that country. I disagree. The important thing is a desire to learn. If one has that, the resources are huge and don't necessarily require a visit. Also, it is quite possible to live abroad for years, and not learn a damn thing about the country one is staying in. Unfortunately, one of the defects of many of my countrymen is lack of a desire to learn in the first place. My experiences overseas has convinced me it is not a strictly American problem.>I feel that learning about foreign ways of
>living and learning about a country other than your own,
>should be an important part of anyone's education. Second only to learning something about one's own country.>That's true, I did expect a few more people would speak
>English, but you learn to make do eventually. When I was stationed in Japan in the 1970's the following joke was in vouge: If a person who speaks two languages is bilingual, and a person who speaks three languages is trilingual, what is a person who speaks one language called? An American! (rimshot)I cannot speak for Europe (my time there is limited mostly to the UK), but during the time I was in Asia (most of the '70's) most people were at least bilingual and many could speak several laguages. Pretty much any place you could drive a car to, you could find a foreign language speaker, and about 80% of the time the second language would be English.>I'm possibly heading to Barcelona next year and my Spanish
>knowledge is nill.....this should be interesting. I have a friend who did Italy last year and said that if a body has one of the romance languages, any of the others can be quickly picked up to the point of at least getting the drift and making oneself understood.>It's kind of a tricky situation, but here goes. How much
>French is spoken to you largely depends on where you are. Also who you are. My experience in Quebec has been that when I wear something identifying me as American (rather then Canadian) they spoke English with me and were uniformly courteous. >It's really only useful for Anglos to learn French . . .All lerning, any learning, is useful to anyone who learns, no matter when or where. Indeed, it seems a rather odd comment when held against your above views on the importance of foreign education.>I just can't stress enough that I think it's very important
>that America consider how the rest of the world will take
>the decision. I think it odd that "the rest of the world" needs to be considered when we make a decision, but "the rest of the world" seems quite capable of making decisions without respect to how America will take it. FWIW, I think the primary duty of the US govt is to the Constitution and the American people. It seems pretty self evident that, in general terms, what is best for America and its people is that the rest of the world live in as much peace and harmony as possible, if for no other reason then that a rising tide floats all boats.It is just possible that this PoV is what is motivating the American govt at this time, just as it is possible that a very narrow self interest is what is motivating contenental Europe.Brad Meyer

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davereageCharter Member · 526 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-03 AT 00:13 AM (EDT)

>>Because it's really hard to truly learn about other
>>countries, their cultures, their people, unless you visit
>>that country.
>
>I disagree. The important thing is a desire to learn. If one
>has that, the resources are huge and don't necessarily
>require a visit. Also, it is quite possible to live abroad
>for years, and not learn a damn thing about the country one
>is staying in. Unfortunately, one of the defects of many of
>my countrymen is lack of a desire to learn in the first
>place. My experiences overseas has convinced me it is not a
>strictly American problem. The desire to learn is also very important, but you can read as many books as you want about a place, it will still not compare to immersing yourself in that place for a period of time. That has been my experience anyway.
>
>>I feel that learning about foreign ways of
>>living and learning about a country other than your own,
>>should be an important part of anyone's education.
>
>Second only to learning something about one's own country. Of course. You need to understand your own country before you can try to tackle someone else's country.
>
>>That's true, I did expect a few more people would speak
>>English, but you learn to make do eventually.
>
>When I was stationed in Japan in the 1970's the following
>joke was in vouge: If a person who speaks two languages is
>bilingual, and a person who speaks three languages is
>trilingual, what is a person who speaks one language called?
> An American! (rimshot) hehe,
>
>I cannot speak for Europe (my time there is limited mostly
>to the UK), but during the time I was in Asia (most of the
>'70's) most people were at least bilingual and many could
>speak several laguages. Pretty much any place you could
>drive a car to, you could find a foreign language speaker,
>and about 80% of the time the second language would be
>English.
>
>>I'm possibly heading to Barcelona next year and my Spanish
>>knowledge is nill.....this should be interesting.
>
>
>>It's kind of a tricky situation, but here goes. How much
>>French is spoken to you largely depends on where you are.
>
>Also who you are. My experience in Quebec has been that when
>I wear something identifying me as American (rather then
>Canadian) they spoke English with me and were uniformly
>courteous. That's true, there are parts of Quebec where if you drive up with Ontario plates, there's no way they think you speak French.
>
>>It's really only useful for Anglos to learn French . . .
>
>All lerning, any learning, is useful to anyone who learns,
>no matter when or where. Indeed, it seems a rather odd
>comment when held against your above views on the importance
>of foreign education. Yeah, I struggled with how to word that when I first typed it. Guess I messed it up. What I meant is that Angloes will really only use their French on a regular basis in New Brunswick, Quebec etc....
>

Dave Reage,
somewhere near the end of CN's Dartmouth Sub

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Very interesting views Chuck,but let's get one thing straight.
You have a vivid imagination regarding my exploits in war zones.At no time did I intimate that I was not in agreement with MY goverment in VOLUNTEERING to serve in the war zones concerned.I did not say that the conflicts concerned,at that time,were needless,but I do think the proposed Iraqi conflict is.Bonus,or no bonus,(jealous?),I don't make the rules on that situation,but the ships I served on were usually crammed to the gun'nals with(sorry Official Secrets Act)"XXX".
Some of your other observations like Saddam being supported by Nazi fugitives,are frankly laughable.On the point of Saddam's supply train,and the countries involved.The USA was top dog,turning a blind eye to his Kurdish indescretions,because he was fighting against Islamic Fundamentalism,eg Ayatollah Khohmeni in Iran.By the way "bin liner" is a fundamentalist too,and equally hated by Saddam,a Secular ruler.Indeed to all intents and purposes,one of your envoys in Iraq declined to give a view on his proposed incursion into Kuwait,(Arab,Arab conflicts neutral,but no Arab Israeli conflicts),so he invaded.The rest is history.Now the USA,and its partners,in the liberation of Kuwait,after the "mistake" was realised,stopped short of deposing Saddam there and then,they after all had liberated Kuwait,and made a profit(Kuwait paid hard cash for all the costs of that war)Why that decision was taken,I do not know,but it was,and again,in my opinion,I was surprised that Saddam was not taken out there and then,as it was the most logical thing to do.Now,at what time do you consider your President to be foolhardy?Going ahead in Iraq,if the UN decides more time is needed?After he instigates war with N.Korea?After he decides Pakistan requires disarming?I've just seen a speech where he's challenging the UN to bow to his wishes.Will he nuke it too?Regarding Korea.That was the first time the UN flexed its muscles in trying to stop a civil war,even Russia went along with the principle,and agreed to UN action.However this high principle was hijacked,and became a "US against communism" strategy,and the Russians\Chinese wouldn't support that.In the end a ceasfire was established and the country partitioned.
Vietnam was a similar venture,but with no UN involvement.Why your president wants to revisit those conflicts,and try to rewrite history,or "right" his perceived "US vanquishment" beats me.Anyway to quote the Good Book "Blessed be the peacemakers",and boy,their work's cut out on this one.I see you're a "virtual" CEO,how about a few "virtual beers" to discuss this sensibly?Invite the mythical "warrior poets" too.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>Very interesting views Chuck,but let's get one thing
>straight.
>You have a vivid imagination regarding my exploits in war
>zones.I quote,
"I've been in war zones, (On a VOLUNTARY basis I may add as a Merchant Marine Officer) ,including Africa and the middle east,(the gulf)and some of my fellow officers were killed by missile attacks on their vessels,I was lucky,only the meat in a refrigeration locker was prematurely "cooked" by shellfire"So what was I imagining????>At no time did I intimate that I was not in agreement
>with MY government in VOLUNTEERING to serve in the war zones
>concerned.OK, I didn't say you were! Just wondered about your motives to be there then when you are questioning similar situations now!>I did not say that the conflicts concerned,at that
>time,were needless,but I do think the proposed Iraqi
>conflict is.
>Hmm I could have sworn you said,
"Being on the receiving end does hone your attitude to further needless conflicts"
That sounds like you were calling those conflicts needless to me!
Anyone else have an opinion?>Bonus,or no bonus,(jealous?),I don't make the rules on that
>situation,but the ships I served on were usually crammed to
>the gun'nals with(sorry Official Secrets Act)"XXX". So, I probably was jealous as I was making about $150us/month when I was shot at! At least you have the good graces to admit you profited by doing so!>Some of your other observations like Saddam being supported
>by Nazi fugitives,are frankly laughable.
>Ah where did I say That?
I said that Iraq was a stop of choice for Nazi fugitives after the end of WW2..
Also remnants of the Vichy Military including members of several demi-brigades of La Legion that were posted there during the war stayed there afterwords rather than go back to France and face the music! Where a lot of them (NAZI and Vichy) were involved in training the Iraqi Military at that time. That is a proven fact! Even in revisionist history books like the ones you must have read.You really ought to take a course on remedial reading as it appears to me that you are skimming my posts and seizing on points and statements out of context and distorting them to fit your own pre-conceived notions!
That's disappointing to me since I put a lot of work in crafting these posts to be accurate, humorous and tell the other side of the story from you!
>On the point of Saddam's supply train,and the countries
>involved.The USA was top dog,turning a blind eye to his
>Kurdish indescretions,because he was fighting against
>Islamic Fundamentalism,eg Ayatollah Khohmeni in Iran.By the
>way "bin liner" is a fundamentalist too,and equally hated by
>Saddam,a Secular ruler.Yes and all this is covered by the "Enemy of my Enemy" philosophy!
If two totalitarian despots who are both my enemies (Remember Iran held American Hostages during some of this period) want to fight each other and seriously weaken each other in the process allow me to pour some gasoline on their fire! Each one of them that the other neutralizes is one less threat to me! A well known European philosopher named Machiavelli first codified this philosophy several hundred years ago!Saddam is more than smart enough and after the defeat in Afghanistan Al-Queda is desperate enough to also subscribe to it!
And I believe that has been proven also...
Or do you think Colin Powell is/was Lying too?
Hah, I want to be there when you tell him so!>Now the USA,and its partners,in the liberation of
>Kuwait,after the "mistake" was realised,stopped short of
>deposing Saddam there and then,they after all had liberated
>Kuwait,and made a profit(Kuwait paid hard cash for all the
>costs of that war)
>I'm sure glad you think we made a profit on that war!
You of course have a set of books proving that to show us????And why wouldn't they Voluntarily re-emburse us? And the Saudis too? For saving their bacon and straining our economy and risking the lives of our troops in the process! We didn't ask for them to they volunteered in genuine gratitude!
Unlike the UK and France, Practicing Muslims don't default on debts (especially debts of honor) like both those countries (The UK and France) did on their war bonds/loans from the US after WW1...
(Even while sucking Germany dry with reparations that ruined the German economy and set the stage for Hitler to come to power and all that followed - I guess I'm making that up too? and most of the history and economic texts that agree with me are wrong - which would be almost all of them) We learned from watching that fiasco and that is why there was a Marshall Plan after WW2 to rebuild Europe and Japan!
>Why that decision was taken,I do not know,but it was,and
>again,in my opinion,I was surprised that Saddam was not
>taken out there and then,as it was the most logical thing to
>do.
>We apparently let political considerations and the fears of the hand wringers get in the way of achieving strategic victory not just tactical victory. Won't happen again!>Now,at what time do you consider your President to be
>foolhardy?Going ahead in Iraq,if the UN decides more time is
>needed?After he instigates war with N.Korea?After he decides
>Pakistan requires disarming? Nope! None of those! He can go ahead with any and all of them under our system of government as long as congress goes along and funds them and we don't throw him or them out at the next election like we did LBJ over his conduct of the Vietnamese war!Under our system of government he is the primary one who determines who is a threat to us and Proposes the resolution which Congress must approve! Only in the event of a 1st strike by an enemy can he go ahead on his own!
BTW, FWIW and not withstanding all the hand-wringing and posturing to the contrary by the "Loyal Opposition" (The vast majority of whom voted for it) Congress has already approved a strike at Iraq.>
>I've just seen a speech where he's challenging the UN to bow
>to his wishes.Will he nuke it too?
>Totally not true! Are you sure you are not Johnny Cochran in drag? "If the glove don't fit you must aquit"... Best case of a high priced ambulance chaser getting a murderer off I've ever seen except possibly for Ted Kennedy's performance post Chappaquiddick!What Bush did was basically ask the UN to put up or shut up!
In other words if you aren't going to enforce them then why kill the trees to print the resolutions?>Regarding Korea.That was the first time the UN flexed its
>muscles in trying to stop a civil war,even Russia went along
>with the principle,and agreed to UN action.However this high
>principle was hijacked,and became a "US against communism"
>strategy,and the Russians\Chinese wouldn't support that.In
>the end a ceasfire was established and the country
>partitioned.
>Vietnam was a similar venture,but with no UN involvement.
>Where did you learn history?
The Patrice Lumumbaa University of Socialist Fraternity in the old USSR?Korea was an outright invasion of South Korea by the North Koreans who were only in power at all courtesy of Chairman Mao and the Chinese!
Russia did not go along at all but made a gross tactical error and walked out of the vote to oppose the invasion instead of Vetoing it!
They made up for it by using their position on the Security Council by obfuscating all attempts to fund and prosecute the war by the UN... Since the US made up some 80% of the Troops it would appear to be a US war on the face of it... However there was significant participation by troops from the UK, Canada, France, Turkey, Australia and New Zealand to name a few....
The country was partitioned after a military standoff/draw...
American and Western Technology against Chinese Manpower...
It has since been reliably reported that the Chinese lost over a million men in that struggle including Mao's son!
By that time there was no North Korean army left and with out direct intervention by the Chinese, North Korea would have ceased to exist long before!
Too bad Harry T. lost his nerve and negotiated too soon as some contemporary accounts have the Chinese ready to throw in the towel at that point also! It was left to Eisenhower to negotiate the final armistice as Harry T. had lost the election by that point and was out of office... And no I don't think he should have listened to MacArthur and Nuked the Chinese either! McA was IMO a Megalomaniac with an over-inflated opinion of himself and I think most history texts agree!Vietnam did have multinational involvement!
I served with Troops from the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Turkey and the Republic of Korea (to name a few) during that time!BTW, In case you never noticed the free capitalist world (Including your own UK) was in a death struggle with Communist Totalitarianism for over 50 years...
So there was no high-jacking of causes involved there!
You know your philosophy is starting to sound a bit like those English Public School Boys who all espoused Communism/World Socialism as the "Great Shining Future" while at Oxford in the 30s, 40s and 50s! and when they grew up they all joined the foreign and security services and proceeded to sell out their own country in droves! Can you remember Kim Philby?
You didn't go to Oxford did you?
Billary did!>Why your president wants to revisit those conflicts,and try
>to rewrite history,or "right" his perceived "US
>vanquishment" beats me.
>Beats me why you would think that!>Anyway to quote the Good Book "Blessed be the
>peacemakers",and boy,their work's cut out on this one.
>
>I see you're a "virtual" CEO,how about a few "virtual beers"
>to discuss this sensibly?Invite the mythical "warrior poets"
>too. Your Place or Mine?
Good open discussion!
Lots of divergent views!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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kevarcCharter Member · 3301 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I think this is a stupid idea. We have notices in the paper all the time of National Guard units being activiated for deployement to the Middle East. They not only state the date but where they are going. The same goes for what you see on the TV. In today's paper they listed the LA guard units being activiated and another about the 101st Screaming Eagles getting ready for overseas duty. And before you say it is only a small Louisiana town's newspaper, one of the terrorists iin the first bombing from the World Trade Center went to college here. The local university has a large number middle eastern students.This is a dumb kneejerk reaction.Kevin Arceneaux
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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-03 AT 03:10 PM (EDT)

Kev,
Buddy, with all respect!
Please Read those notices again for me!
There is a pattern to most of them.
To paraphrase somewhat;
"the 999th Regiment of "The Truck driving Cajuns" of the La. National Guard based right here in Lower Crawdad Parish are being Nationalized and activated for service in the Current National Emergency. After a period of refresher training at Camp Gumbo they will be deployed to the Persian Gulf!"
(sorry couldn't resist having some fun with that! and you! )
Note it doesn't say things like when they are leaving for the Gulf,
Where they will go in the Gulf, what they will do when they get there (Though you could deduce this outfit is a transportation organization - and will be providing heavy logistical support to a large force) and how they will get there...
Pictures of them climbing on a plane or embarking on a ship are published some time after said Plane or Ship has departed...Also, having observed the Psy-War boys/girls in action before, they are well aware the "Enemy reads the Local Paper" and know that any intelligence analyst will be looking for exactly that kind of "chatter" to develop analysis of intentions when doing their job... It lends credence to the Administrations Public Pronouncements and Statements on the crisis.
Remember what I said earlier about the repercussions to the Germans of believing the disinformation about Gen. Patton going all over England in the Run up to D-Day giving speeches and such as commander of a "phantom" Army targeted at the Pas De Calais????
BTW, I have no problem mentioning this stuff because the afore mentioned "Enemy Analysts" know this possibility also and all this leads to FUD *Fear Uncertainty and Doubt* on their part and consequently on the part of "Enemy" Commanders....>>> This is a dumb kneejerk reaction.Maybe! But I'd rather it be that, Then take a chance on it and possibly endanger our troops.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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MacsterCharter Member · 1246 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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http://www.trainorders.com/stories/2003/02/09/548.phpIf you really want to know why these websites are being removed *in regarding to timetable websites* they list one major thing... Bridges, I actually saw the National Guard at Bridge 4... loaded to the gills... so I happily DID NOT take pictures there..... I treat this matter extremely seriously, i'm sure you can go around to several websites and if they have timetable information, i'm sure they will be pulled.. i already ran into 5 websites now, 2 BNSF, a CSX, UP and for a old SP website as well.

Brian E. Bundridge
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jlucero4Charter Member · 119 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Military Movements – image 108

I don't see how taking timetables away prevents terrorists from finding bridges. It they wanted to find a bridge to harm, it wouldn't be particularly hard to find one. Macster, did the websites you are talking about pull their timetables because they were told to, or was it their own choice?Jordan

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MacsterCharter Member · 1246 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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they were told to by the Railroad.True, it is easy to find, but i believe it is more of the major bridges they are concerned about.

Brian E. Bundridge
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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Bridges can be Blown, But a lot more damage can be done if a train is on them when it happens!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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CGW409Charter Member · 460 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Jordan
It maybe that employee timetables if posted,relay data on bridge wheight restrictions and such that tell our friendly neighborhood sabotuer just what bridge to blow with his supply of explosives.
It was true 60 + years ago it's still true today....Loose lips sink ships

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CSXALineCharter Member · 871 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Camp Gumbo Chuck,HAHAHAHAHA Goood oneI spent 4 years at FT Polk as a Chemical Operations Specialist -
watched the KCS Pass by outside SleezeVille (Leesville)Lets Face it - The Americans are becoming Isolated again, just like in the past the continent of Europe is becoming Lazy - well i bet when the time comes and someone marches into france again - the french will cry out for our help just like the last 2 timesit is time to kick a$$Jason Webb
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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I don't think Europe is becoming lazy.I believe it is becoming responsible.The idea of "marching into France" is a bit silly too.Who?Iraq?
Times are a changing,and whether the US can acommodate it is still to be seen.I forsee,no I'm not a soothsayer,a realignment of "superpowers?".1)The USA.2)Europe(confederation,including Russia?) and China.Whether the African and Indian continents form their own,or align with China(India,Pakistan?) or Europe(Africa,and middle east?)remains to be seen.The French,at no time,or anybody else involved,requested the USA to intervene in WW1 or WW2,as the USA intervened on A)The sinking of the Lusitania in WW1,and B)The attack on Pearl harbor in WW2.Both of which involved attacks on their citizensIf quoting history,please quote with some degree of accuracy,and not common folklore.No flames intended,as truth cannot be flamed.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-03 AT 11:01 PM (EDT)

>I don't think Europe is becoming lazy.I believe it is
>becoming responsible.Responsible for what and to whom?
The terms self serving and avaricious come to mind...
BTW apropos of nothing, what are they paying for gas in La Belle France now? What do you think they have negotiated the price to with Saddam if they can get the Embargo lifted?
>The idea of "marching into France" is a
>bit silly too.Who?Iraq? Maybe if the United States is knocked out of the picture due to political paralysis by the Peace at any Price Crowd...
You know the same ones (and now their children) who said we could never defeat the rising tide of Communism so we should reach an "accommodation" with them..
(Said accommodation usually incurred ceding Continental Europe to them and the Marginalizing of the UK)And maybe not! If they control the oil for France and the EU they control the EU! With out any need to invade! Nes Pas?
>>>>>Times are a changing,and whether the US can accommodate it is
>still to be seen.
>You and the Leaders of the European Common Market wish it were so!
Compare the GNPs sometime and the worker productivity levels... Though I will grant you that if the "Outcome Based" Idiots continue to "Dumb down" our educational system this won't last for long...
>I foresee,no I'm not a soothsayer,a realignment of
>"superpowers?".1)The USA.2)Europe(confederation,including
>Russia?) and China.Whether the African and Indian continents
>form their own,or align with China(India,Pakistan?) or
>Europe(Africa,and middle east?)remains to be seen.
>I can't see the rest of the Europeans "aligning themselves" too easily with the Russians...
The Poles and the Germans may take exception to that(Institutional Memories are long and a lot of them still remember the Soviet Conquest and Occupation - Can you say Katyn Forrest in Poland or General Sikorsky's assassination ordered by Stalin {or was that Churchill?} and those wonderful fun loving folks of the GDR puppet government propped up by the Red Army - can you say Stasi? )!
And the Russians still wake up at night with Nightmares about the Germans marching East, Again!
And I think I would buy a ticket to the average bloke in the UK declaring himself a "brother" with the Germans and French! LOL! Culturally the ties with us are too strong unless people like you succeed in weakening them.
You lot in the EU have a ways to go before you are homogeneous enough to seriously challenge us! And why would you want to except maybe to prove the size of your Johnsons? To your selves! After all you are paying higher prices and lagging technically by doing so.
(Can you say the French Campaign against Microsoft?)
Not that it won't happen but it will take a while... Longer!
(BTW, Any one remember the French Embargo on British Beef, ostensibly over Mad-Cow disease that had the effect of significantly benefiting the French Farmer financially????
Oh, and have the French and the Low Countries completely eliminated their agricultural subsidies that the EU founding documents called for, yet?)>The French,at no time,or anybody else involved,requested the
>USA to intervene in WW1 or WW2,as the USA intervened on
>A)The sinking of the Lusitania in WW1,and B)The attack on
>Pearl harbor in WW2.Both of which involved attacks on their
>citizens
>Come on, Who's re-inventing history now?
Prior to the 1917 entry of the US in WW1 Both England and France, being bled white at the front desperately pleaded with the United States for intervention and/or material help. There were almost monthly diplomatic delegations pleading their case in Washington(In fact IIRC the British were so desperate that they Denuded Australia and New Zealand of Manpower and the debacle at Gallipoli, due in part to Poor British Leadership that caused disproportionate casualties among the "colonials", severely strained the Commonwealth almost to the point of breaking! Also They (The UK) were forced to reach an accommodation promising Independence with the Irish that they later reneged on to get manpower to make good on their combat losses... You know A lot of the early original IRA types (and Pre-IRA types) received their military training and "love" for the competence of the "Elite" British Officer Classes (as constituted at that time) during WW1. (All of this Information is documented in any accredited History curriculum.)
In fact The Kaiser's General Staff wanted desperately to keep the US out of the war as documented in many of their since published records.
President Wilson was convinced but was unable to directly intervene due to the reluctance of our Congress who said it wasn't our war.. Until the "Broken Code" debacle at the German Embassy in Mexico City (Where the Germans allegedly promised Mexico the return of Texas and California if they sided with Germany - Some people seem to think that has happened anyway - LOL), The ammunition explosion in Jersey City/Bayonne and the sinking of the Lusitania provided the public outcry necessary to over ride their reservations... Again, according to the vast majority of Accredited and Accepted Western History Texts, during the early days of World War 2 prior to Dec. 7th 1941 and subsequent to the "Evacuation" at Dunkirk, Winston Churchill spent a significant part of his waking days scheming on how to directly involve the United States as he needed our Resources and Industrial Base since the UK's was either being Blockaded or significantly interfered with in some form or other by the Reichsmarine and/or bombed by the Luftwaffe.
Which French do you mean "did not ask for nor want our help and intervention in WW2:?
The "Vichy French" under Marshal Pétain in German Occupied/Dominated France (you know the guys who willingly handed over their captured downed English and American Airmen and their Jews to the Gestapo's tender care, unlike the Dutch and the Danes who resisted and hid them) You know its possible that the Austrians provided as almost as much resistance to the Nazis as the Vichy French.
(Any one ever hear of a guy named Schindler?)
Or the "Free French" under General Charles de Gaulle, who along with his troops was wearing an American made Uniform and carrying American made weapons and ammunition on his triumphal march into Paris?? At the point of an army that was almost 70% American???? which had to halt its offensive against the Germans long enough for Le Grande Charle and his troops to get to the Front and make a triumphal entry into Paris...Also as a point of Historical accuracy, you should know and remember that we declared War only on Japan subsequent to their sneak attack on us at Pearl Harbor.
FWIW, The Germans and Italians declared war on us as did the Vichy French! We never declared war on them!>If quoting history,please quote with some degree of
>accuracy,and not common folklore.No flames intended,as truth
>cannot be flamed. So should you! Back at ya!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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TinrailCharter Member · 19 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Dude you have been longwinded this weekend, I see your remarks on almost every post on this forum.
Do us a favor and go away for a while and play with your fictious loco works company.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Dude,
I'm glad to see that you have the courage of your convictions and have a profile and real name in there when you make comments like that!
This is an open forum and I have the right to express myself just as Larkie and Friends do!
You with no profile and only 10 post meet the classic profile of a Troll!If you don't like what I say ignore me!
Better yet, Don't read my posts!
Or do you have to have your Mommy read them for you?BTW, this all started because I cautioned one young man about the advisability of posting SPECIFIC Military Movements on here and pointing out to Brian that several of the RRs would not like it as might not the US Government!I feel like I turned over a rock and all the critters came crawling out into the light of day!The original thread had nothing to do with Political Philosophy or whether or not Dubya is a venal warmonger until the peace-nick spin squad showed up!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Very True about Larkie
Which is why I accord him a modicum of Respect!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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CSXALineCharter Member · 871 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-03 AT 10:48 PM (EDT)

OMG Chuck You are Beautiful!!!!!!!!!editing this as i saw his post afterLarkieTruth remains - If The US had not intervened - half the world would be flying the Swastika or better yet the Hammer and Sickle.
"If quoting history,please quote with some degree of accuracy,and not common folklore"Larkie are you a history professor? are you so all knowing that you know every bit of history and world politics, if so why arent you a politician? i am sure the world would be at peace with you at the helm (sic)The truth of the matter is that if it wasnt for the US alot of countries would have been in deep doo doo - if there had not been a balance of power between the US and the former USSR who knows what would have happened If there was no United States - What would have happened - how would our world be shaped today.France's Military was a Joke - How long did it last against the Whermacht? not long at allHow can you say I am not quoting facts - you should study in grade school more often - If Russia and England had not had the Cooperation and Supplies of the US - Hitler probably could have taken Moscow as there would not have been a second front.
if you resent us for helping larkie then thats your problem - i wonder if you were on the other side of the coin would you feel the same wayJason Webb
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Brad 110Member since Aug-31-02 · 235 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>The idea of "marching into France" is a
>bit silly too.Who?Iraq? That's almost word for word what Briand was saying in the '20's. Tom Lehrer said it even better:Once all the Germans were warlike and mean,
But that couldn't happen again.
We taught them a lesson in nineteen-eighteen,
And they've hadly bothered us since then.
(Tom Lehrer -- MLF Lullabye)>Times are a changing,and whether the US can acommodate it is
>still to be seen. It never fails to amaze me how much "the times they are a changing" for whose own ox isn't being gored at the moment.>The French,at no time,or anybody else involved,requested the
>USA to intervene in WW1 or WW2 . . .This is so far wrong it is laughable. Who do you think financed the Allied effort in both wars. One of the primary reasons the US got involved militarily in WW I was fear that a Central Powers victory would cause England and France to default on their war loans. They did that anyway, but that's a different story.,as the USA intervened on
>A)The sinking of the Lusitania in WW1,and B)The attack on
>Pearl harbor in WW2.That's only when they started sending troops. That had interviend with Cash and carry, Lend Lease, DD for Bases, sending Marines to Icland to relieve the Brits stationed there, etc., etc., etc. long before they did any shooting.>If quoting history,please quote with some degree of
>accuracy,and not common folklore.If your post is any indication, you would be the resident expert on folklore substituted for history.Brad Meyer

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imprezzedCharter Member · 53 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Hey, Tinrail! Dude...sort yourself out! Free speech is a given right, instead of being a tard and making fun of NALW, and flaming Chuck, why don't you go and create something better, instead of making useless pokes at people, huh?

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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b101ukCharter Member · 97 posts

RE: Military Movements.

hi
"So who have we bombed lately? Besides Afghanistan, Iraq and Serbia (Ah yes Serbia, Now there was a great bastion of democracy there - ethnic cleansing and all - straight out of Hitler and Stalin's play book" chuckscer you(USA) bombed(cruse misile) Yemen in nov 2002, without permishon for overflight, to bomb a suspected al-quadia target, in Yemen, 6 killed and 1 mud hut damaged. now given that the usa did not ask the Yemen govment if thay could bomb it, thay just went and did it. now would that do the same to some ware in the uk , germany , france ?, so y do it to Yemen?.now ask you self witch 2 powers are more likly to start a war and kill people with in the next 2 years? Iraq, N korea, or the USA and the UK?.b101uk

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

To hear Larkie and his sycophants tell it,
it would be the UK and the US!
I know it won't be Iraq shortly and N. Korea shortly there after!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Chuck,for all your postings,and insinuations about me,you still haven't tumbled to the fact that I am not a "peacenik",correct terminology?Before this discussion was railroaded(keep the Mods happy)onto this dead end of who did what,where,when,how many and with what result,right or wrong,etc,etc.My main thrust was that the USA,was approaching this intended war with the wrong motives,intentions,and intital logic.Indeed is a war necessary to disarm Saddam?At no time,have I stated Saddam should be kept in power,but how he is to be best removed,without causing other unforseen consequences(history is littered with those),is a valid point of discussion.The rest of the world is a bit apprehensive about one superpower deciding it'll do what it wants,just because it can.Or that's the way it's perceived.You can scoff all you like,but the present crisis in NATO,that has unfolded today,shows that not all nations favour the USA,UK approach.It looks like,as I predicted last week,that France,Russia,and perhaps China will veto any new resolution on Iraq,regarding the war option.Tony Blair is in the midst of his own embarrasment due to the misinformation passed to the UN,via Colin Powell.Remember him(Colin) showing the "Exquisite" UK document to the UN and praising it?It has since emerged(was it reported in the States?) that the document concerned was plagerised material of a US student written TWELVE years ago,before Saddam's invasion of Kuwait,but presented as being the latest info on Iraq by the UK security services.(Perhaps it was??)As such,an apology has been given to the British people,albeit grudgingly.Blair has also gone on record,that a new resolution from the UN would be desired,sanctioning military action,before he finally commits British troops to the field.Will he still back Bush if that resolution is veto'd?If the threat of ultimate force is maintained,by the US and the UK+others?stationed around Iraq,whilst UN personnel(peacekeepers),along with inspectors occupy Iraq,and do the actual disarming.What's wrong with that?The Chinese sometimes won't do something,if they think they'll "lose face".I've a feeling that your President is in a similar position,having huffed and puffed so much,he'd take it as a defeat,or a loss of face,to do anything other than go to war.I happen to think a compromise like above,would save face,as Saddam would be disarmed,and possibly exiled.Bush could take the kudos for restrained mature statesmanship,and the US would be seen as not being tainted by the cowboy,shoot'em up vision the world has of them at the moment.Think about it.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-03 AT 05:48 PM (EDT)

>Chuck,for all your postings,and insinuations about me,you
>still haven't tumbled to the fact that I am not a
>"peacenik",correct terminology?
>No Insinuations! I flat out said that in my opinion you are giving comfort and encouragement to Saddam with your analysis of our motives and approach to Iraq!
>Before this discussion was railroaded(keep the Mods
>happy)onto this dead end of who did what,where,when,how many
>and with what result,right or wrong,etc,etc.My main thrust
>was that the USA,was approaching this intended war with the
>wrong motives,intentions,and intital logic.Indeed is a war
>necessary to disarm Saddam?
>
>At no time,have I stated Saddam should be kept in power,but
>how he is to be best removed,without causing other unforseen
>consequences(history is littered with those),is a valid
>point of discussion.
>
>The rest of the world is a bit apprehensive about one
>superpower deciding it'll do what it wants,just because it
>can.Or that's the way it's perceived.
>I guess you lost the argument on a Historical and Logical Basis so now you are trying to change the playing field?If you really have travelled here as much as you say you have, then you know about how much we really care about the perceptions others, particularly the European peace movement, have about us!>You can scoff all you like,but the present crisis in
>NATO,that has unfolded today,shows that not all nations
>favour the USA,UK approach.
>
>It looks like,as I predicted last week,that
>France,Russia,and perhaps China will veto any new resolution
>on Iraq,regarding the war option.
>Lets examine that shall we?
France, Russia and China will veto the next resolution!
Who needs one more? There are already 17 Meaningless UN resolutions on the books demanding Saddam disarm and prove it!
Why do we have to kill more trees for another one that no one, least of all Saddam, will pay any attention to?France has/had/hopes to have again heavy economic ties to Iraq!
We already know they are for sale based on their prior actions in this affair!Russia was Iraq's primary ally and armourer during the entire Cold War and only cut them adrift to avoid a direct confrontation with the US-UK! There are still strong personal ties between Sr. Members of the Russian Military and Iraq!The Middle Kingdom (China) will always try to confound the "Barbarians" (The Rest of us) since they are so much superior to us! And have been around so much longer! Just ask them. Our economic power still galls them !>Tony Blair is in the midst of his own embarrasment due to
>the misinformation passed to the UN,via Colin
>Powell.Remember him(Colin) showing the "Exquisite" UK
>document to the UN and praising it?
>
>It has since emerged(was it reported in the States?) that
>the document concerned was plagerised material of a US
>student written TWELVE years ago,before Saddam's invasion of
>Kuwait,but presented as being the latest info on Iraq by the
>UK security services.(Perhaps it was??)
>As such,an apology has been given to the British
>people,albeit grudgingly.
>Not reported in the states as of this time!
(I know censorship by our government controlled media)
(Hell we don't even have an Official Secrets Act like you do)
Who is reporting it in the UK?
Anyone we should believe?If its true Dubya should be livid and Powell too as both of them are honorable guys and would take anything Blair presented, as one of our closest allies, as gospel!
It would smack of some of Sir Winston's little plots trying to hurry the United States into WW2....
>Blair has also gone on record,that
>a new resolution from the UN would be desired,sanctioning
>military action,before he finally commits British troops to
>the field.Will he still back Bush if that resolution is
>veto'd?
>Don't care!
As I understand it, our position is that we will act unilaterally if necessary to protect ourselves from any perceived threats!
Dubya has stated repeatedly that he was elected by the people of the United States not the UN and the EU and as such he is responsible to the people of the US not the UN or EU!>If the threat of ultimate force is maintained,by the US and
>the UK+others?stationed around Iraq,whilst UN
>personnel(peacekeepers),along with inspectors occupy
>Iraq,and do the actual disarming.What's wrong with that?
>Nothing! Unfortunately we have satellite photos and radio/land line intercepts by our own people (not the UK's - so they should be above reproach in Dubya's eyes - heaven help them if they are not - Dubya doesn't dick around) showing Saddam playing a shell game and moving the stuff out the back door as the inspectors come in the front door!
How do we prevent that along with the transfer of the material to the terrorists!>The Chinese sometimes won't do something,if they think
>they'll "lose face".I've a feeling that your President is in
>a similar position,having huffed and puffed so much,he'd
>take it as a defeat,or a loss of face,to do anything other
>than go to war.
>We're not Chinese!
(Well some of us are. Chinese-American that is!
but most are not and saving face is not a big part of our culture)
"huffed and puffed so much" ?????
You know your prejudice/envy that you claim you don't have is still showing!
>I happen to think a compromise like above,would save face,as
>Saddam would be disarmed,and possibly exiled.Bush could take
>the kudos for restrained mature statesmanship,and the US
>would be seen as not being tainted by the cowboy,shoot'em up
>vision the world has of them at the moment.Think about it. Not being a strategic thinker,
You really don't get it do you?(I don't claim to be one either but I can understand the concepts if they are explained to me real slow and in small words with lots of pictures!)Its not just about removing Saddam,
but also his entire corrupt brutal government!
And take Iraq out of play!
This will put pressure on Iran and Syria to stop supporting the Palestinian Suicide Bombers and Hezbollah types and Al-Queda too!
Deny Hezbollah and others in Jordan/Lebanon their primary resupply route and one of their venues for financial support!
It will also put extreme Pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop playing monkey in the middle and finally decide to put a muzzle on their radical Wahabbi theologians! You know the ones that have exported trouble to the entire Muslim world. If anyone still wants to support Saddam and thinks he's an all around better guy than Dubya I invite you to follow this link and see how he deals with dissidents, even the refugee ones who've left Iraq! http://www.msnbc.com/news/868711.asp?0cb=-21b133692Much as he might like to, given the way they frustrate his implementation of policy for the enhancement of their personal political power, I haven't heard any reports about Dubya sending any one to burn off Tom Daschle's testicles with a cattle prod! Or repeatedly Rape and Humiliate Nancy Pilosi! In fact he hasn't even deployed Sarin against the indiginours population in California or Massachusetts! What a guy!
So be very careful who you support!
After all in the early/middle 30s Hitler made a career out of obfuscation and delay and just one last warning and just one last atrocity and broken promises (sound familiar?)! All the while completely Gulling the British and French "Political Realists" who felt the astute/mature thing to do was to temporize and negotiate with him... And in the end, when he felt he was ready, He touched off a conflagration the likes of which the world had never seen before.Now Larkie, My friend, a word about why I am so aggressive in countering the anti-war arguments you and others on here have advanced...
Back in the 60s while serving in SE Asia and other Places I observed the "Peace Movement" gather steam here in the states and take on a life of its own. I saw outright treason (Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden's trip to Hanoi and address to American POWs(War Criminals to them) that were there to name just one incident - friend of mine in later life was there and told me all about it)... I watched the will of a nation frittered away by gross mismanagement and really lousy leadership (LBJ and Robert McNamara amd gutless Generals and Admirals focused on their own careers who did not have the courage of their convictions and resign rather than impliment a policy they disagreed with and thus allowed their men to recieve greater casualties than they should) (Comparison, Remember Powell and Schwartzkopf and Co. resigned and retired rather than continue on under Billary), unworkable restrictions placed on troops in the field that directly led to American Casualties (You can shell/bomb this place but not that and wait a day or two while we warn the enemy so he can move - not exaggeration as a Radio Operator from a high level command post I personally witnessed that foolishness being discussed)... I watched an outright military defeat for the enemy (The TET Offensive - where they lost some thing like 30 to 1 to us and almost all their units were rendered combat ineffective due to high casualties and combat shock and they not only did not retain control of anything they lost control of territory ) Spin Doctored into a victory by the Liberal members of the Media reporting outright untruths about what was happening... and the results encouraged the enemy to hang on in-spite of his military catastrophe long enough to force us to the bargaining table.... I watched and grieved for friends and acquaintances and others being brought home in body bags because of this!
You know the rest of us allowed this to happen because we didn't take these people seriously enough when they started up and little or no attempt was made to counter their arguments with the truth (In fact when it was too late McNamara and his Clique advanced outright lies to cover their own lilly white a$$es! - Lies that I might add were easily uncovered and led to further discrediting of our cause)! Oh and did I mentioned I was spit on and called a Baby Killer in Philadelphia International Airport while in Uniformed?After all that I determined that I would never again sit idly by and watch the Pseudo Intelligentsia/Self Proclaimed Liberal Elite re-write history and destroy my country and lead to the death of my friends!
At this point in my life (too old to Fight and I forget what the other "F" was for) I can best accomplish this by presenting reasoned accurate (to the best of my abilities) arguments refuting the lies, damn lies, revisionist history and spin doctoring of those who oppose my countries policies! In attempt to keep the ones who don't or can't think for themselves (You know who you are) from being swayed by the distortions and lies!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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b101ukCharter Member · 97 posts

RE: Military Movements.

hi Chuck
">It has since emerged(was it reported in the States?) that
>the document concerned was plagerised material of a US
>student written TWELVE years ago,before Saddam's invasion of
>Kuwait,but presented as being the latest info on Iraq by the
>UK security services.(Perhaps it was??)
>As such,an apology has been given to the British
>people,albeit grudgingly.
>Not reported in the states as of this time!
(I know censorship by our government controlled media)
(Hell we don't even have an Official Secrets Act like you do)
Who is reporting it in the UK?
Anyone we should believe?"see hear
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2735031.stmb101uk

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-03 AT 07:18 PM (EDT)

I just did! And I am concerned about Larkie's veracity at this point!
IMO he once again has failed to present a complete picture!So, Lets examine the BBC article and Larkie's statements again with that in mind...
(If after this any of you believe anything of what the man says I have some prime swampland for sale in Florida cheap that I would like to talk to you about! FWIW, I can't sell you the Brooklyn Bridge as Poltergeist has already spoken for it!)The Issue as detailed by the BBC,"The UK intelligence document released on Monday was designed to help win over skeptics by detailing Saddam Hussein's efforts to hide weapons of mass destruction.""But it emerged that some of the document was copied from three different articles, including one written by a postgraduate student""Other sections in the dossier were apparently taken from defence journal Jane's Intelligence Review. ""Excerpts from a paper relating to the build-up to the 1991 Gulf War by Californian student Ibrahim al-Marashi were used in the intelligence document.""The paper was published in the Middle East Review of International Affairs"
"As the report itself makes clear, it was drawn from a number of sources, including intelligence material.""It does not identify or credit any sources, but nor does it claim any exclusivity of authorship." Larkie said,"Tony Blair is in the midst of his own embarrasment due to the misinformation passed to the UN,via Colin Powell.Remember him(Colin) showing the "Exquisite" UK document to the UN and praising it?""It has since emerged(was it reported in the States?) that the document concerned was plagerised material of a US student written TWELVE years ago,before Saddam's invasion of Kuwait,but presented as being the latest info on Iraq by the UK security services.(Perhaps it was??)"And I see nothing that changes my mind...
They quoted a research paper by a graduate student (albiet without attribution which might be a copyright issue if anything)
And the Graduate Student himself didn't seem to be too concerned and had the following to say;"Mr Al-Marashi told the BBC Two Newsnight programme the government document was still accurate despite "a few minor cosmetic changes". "
"The only inaccuracies in the UK document were that they maybe inflated some of the numbers of these intelligence agencies. "<< Chuck Opinion>> Or maybe corrected them with current data?????"The primary documents I used for this article are a collection of two sets of documents, one taken from Kurdish rebels in the north of Iraq - around four million documents - as well as 300,000 documents left by Iraqi security services in Kuwait." >>>> How could this be written before the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait as Larkie alleges and the Grad. Student cite documents left by the Mukhabarat in Kuwait?????? <<<<<<<<<<<Mr. Blair's spokesman said,"It does not identify or credit any sources, but nor does it claim any exclusivity of authorship." "He admitted that the second section of the report, on Saddam's regime, had included excerpts from the student's paper on Iraq's intelligence network.">>> Chuck Opinion <<<< So, An awful lot of research papers are written by Graduate and Post Graduate Students, Its what they do!
Its how the Academic Community routinely incorporates research and historical knowledge... Send a bunch of Grad Students and Post Grad Students to look at it and collate the data!
That does not automatically invalidate their data! You have to challenge that on its face! Again the worst crime was failure to provide the source! And please note the statement that the Student's work was combined with that of Jane's Defense Weekly and Intelligence sources..... Hardly anyone to sneeze at!
This was a source document used by researchers preparing a position paper or as the BBC put it,
"The UK intelligence document released on Monday was designed to help win over sceptics by detailing Saddam Hussein's efforts to hide weapons of mass destruction."I see a statement by the Shadow defence secretary Bernard Jenkin (Anything he says would be like asking Ted Kennedy to critique Dubya or Newt Gingrich on Bilary and expect an objective reply)
"the Tories were deeply concerned by the programme's report."
>>>> Referring to the BBC story!Not exactly a stinging rebuke designed to bring the Back Benchers to their feet, eh?
And the nearest I can come to an apology is again from Mr. Blair's spokesman,"In retrospect, we should, to clear up any confusion, have acknowledged which bits came from public sources and which bits came from other sources." Seems pretty Straight forward to me!
They screwed up on attribution and some of their background material was possibly dated (remember they said they combined it with current intelligence data)....
B.F.D.BTW, Where does it say anything at all about Misinformation or challange the inaccuracy of Colin Powell's report to the UN??????
This is an old Billary Tactic..
When confronted by the charges of Sexual Harassment,
His mouthpieces hit the trail with charges like,
"she is a lady of easy morals"
"she has big hair"
"Oral Sex is not really Sex so he couldn't have lied"
ad naseum...You'll note the pattern there,
No outright denial and attempts to change the focus...
I think that all falls under the heading of intellectual dishonesty!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Well fan my brow!You're concerned by my veracity are you Chuck?It would seem that anybody not in complete agreement with your views about this crisis,and your desire for conflict,must be a traitor to the American Dream,or a fanatical communist etc.So far in your tirades,you've managed to insult,or demean anybody with a helpful suggestion,or critical analysis of American political,and tactical moves to war.As another correspondants have indicated,you are showing the arrogance,that is perceived by others abroad,regarding America and its "Go it alone" stance on the world stage.I suppose you'll still be spouting "we should have invaded Iraq",if your President heeds that same world opinion,and adopts an alternative approach to the situation.Despite your lengthy sneering posts,you did in fact agree with me(after a long preamble),that the events leading to the actual committment of American Forces were as I stated.A)The Lusitania in WW1,and B)The Pearl Harbor bombing in WW2.To say otherwise is to rewrite history,and\or wishful thinking.I believe you are still locked in a cold war mindset.If you had your way,you'd still be fighting the Vietnam war(only stopped by lefties,and "enemies" within the USA?).That war stopped because the American people(remember them?)provided enough political pressure on their elected representatives to have them desist from further loss of American life.I'm also surprised that you still believe in the veracity of Tony Blair's plagerised document,especially as your "free press" didn't publish it,or later show it to be what it was.The said document,published,on the Prime Minister's(Blair)Official Downing Street website,has since been withdrawn.It was such a straight copy,even original grammatical errors and misspellings were reproduced,after twelve years on a dusty shelf.It would also help,I think,for you to keep up to date on the actual state of play of some of your assummed allies.Here's a link to a pan European vote on support for the present American position on Iraq. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2747175.stmCarry on,go it alone,Iran has just announced the resumption of its nuclear program,bomb them too?
At what point will America realise that it's not the rest of the world that is out of step with them,but that they perhaps are out of step with the rest of the world.As somebody else suggested,go for Al Qaeda,the real enemy of all(even to Saddam would you believe?).Afghanistan was mentioned too.Yes it was liberated from an evil regime,The Taliban,but so were the poppy plants so necessary to the Western World's drug habit,and organised crime.
One of the Taliban's aims was to stop drugs disrupting their Islamic Fundamentalist aims,so they were destroying the poppy fields,and "reeducating?" the farmers,via a bullet,prior to normal service being resumed.No doubt another home spun historic homily.

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slensterMember since Feb-11-03 · 1 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-03 AT 08:59 AM (EDT)

Wow, I thought I'd sit down and relax with my nice hot cup of coffee and see what's been happening in train-sim world over the past few weeks, only to find that 1) my forum account has disappeared and 2) the Iraq shitfight has been revived.If only I had a dollar for each time Chuck uses an exclamation mark!Really, you two are flip sides of the same coin as perfectly illustrated and described here: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame55.htmlAs for the British "intelligence" report in question, which was headline news here in Australia, you're getting your "facts" from the BBC? MSNBC? Geezus. Don't you guys know how to use the Internet? Go straight to the source--you don't need to rely on the news outlet with your preferred flavour of spin anymore (although if you're one of the characters described above, it makes sense you'd continue to do so).The report itself: http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7111.asp (note that it's reported the report was later edited to remove the names of the authors, or "cut and pasters" if you prefer, it was originally attributed to)The guy who originally broke the news about the report's plagiarism: http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg00457.htmlIbrahim al-Marashi's article: http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a1.html
MERIA Editor's Response: http://meria.idc.ac.il/british-govt-plagiarizes-meria.htmlSean Boyne's article (excerpt only): http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir030207_2_n.shtml
Ken Gause's article (except only): http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir030207_3_n.shtml
Response from Jane's Intelligence Review Editor: http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir030207_1_n.shtmlIf you want to find out al-Marashi's and Boyne's own opinions of what's been done with their articles, you can do your own searches. I can unfortunately only find several second-hand quotes in the media (help me here ). Depending on which you read, your thoughts could range from believing they are flattered to believing they are outraged.Now my coffee is cold. Guess I'll go make another and read one of the more relaxing threads

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

On behalf of Chuck(I wonder if he resents that?),and myself,thanks for your research,very illuminating.I don't know which caricature I am,liberal or conservative,right or left,as it changes depending on the topic under discussion,and the views of the listener.I have been banned from taking shore leave,Novosorysk,1977(by the Russian authorities,I may add)after me,and others gave our views on Russian cummunism's evolution,and their relationship to world events,whilst in their Seamans Club.
They had previously thought us to be sympathisers of the Russian political system,as we had won a quiz the previous evening,on Russian history,and been invited back for more.I stress it was the Authorities that objected,not any member of the discussion group,of either nationality.After that,an armed sentry was posted on the gangway to restrict our movements.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Hi Slen Welcome Back,>If only I had a dollar for each time Chuck uses an
>exclamation mark! I'll try to do better! (LOL)>
>Really, you two are flip sides of the same coin as perfectly
>illustrated and described here:
>http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame55.html
ROFLMAO! I like it. Good Cartoon.>
>As for the British "intelligence" report in question, which
>was headline news here in Australia, you're getting your
>"facts" from the BBC? MSNBC? Geezus. Don't you guys know how
>to use the Internet? Go straight to the source--you don't
>need to rely on the news outlet with your preferred flavour
>of spin anymore (although if you're one of the characters
>described above, it makes sense you'd continue to do so).
>Actually I do get my info from other sources in addition to BBC/MSNBC et al. Some of these sources are also on the internet. It is important to remember that just because some "Bloke" puts up a web Site and spews agit-prop that doesn't make it so. I routinely read publications from both sides of the political spectrum. How else could I expect to be able to make a coherent argument?>The report itself:
>http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7111.asp (note that
>it's reported the report was later edited to remove the
>names of the authors, or "cut and pasters" if you prefer, it
>was originally attributed to)
>As I said before it looks like a generic "White Paper" written by a Research Assistant Somewhere. If anyone really thinks thats what a full-on Intelligence Summary looks like you are mistaken. IMHO It looks more like an Executive Summary which is usually kept as "simple" as possible (Hmmm! I wonder why?)I see a table of organization and a chain of command in there..
How would that be dated? For instance the FBI hasn't changed its name or who it reports to in over 70 years. So why would Al-Mukhabarat other than for the musical chairs that Saddam's inner circle seem to play.I also see some general statements about the effect of the Secret Service on the Population. They are all scared to death of Al-Mukhabarat. I dare say any of us would be too if we were living in Iraq. All this is common knowledge and has been reported by various outside agencies (Amnesty International, Drs with out Borders, ad-infinitum).I also see a description of how the Iraqi secret police are interfering with the UN Weapons Inspectors. This is new data how? Hans Blix himself has complained of this very behavior.
>The guy who originally broke the news about the report's
>plagiarism:
>http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg00457.html
>Posted in "The Campaign aganst Sanctions on Iraq's Discussion groups"??????I guess that's really an objective organization that I should pay a lot of attention to? FWIW, I wonder how much of their funding and support of all types comes either directly or indirectly from Al-Mukhabarat and its sister agencies? that's the trouble with organizations like this, when they do actually find something like this people on the other side of the issue dismiss their opinions and all they do is serve to re-enforce the opinions of their own "enthusiasts".>Ibrahim al-Marashi's article:
>http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a1.html Appears to be a well researched Post-Grad paper with all the appropriate references. I note it's dated September 2002 not 12 years ago as I seem to recall others have alleged.>MERIA Editor's Response:
>http://meria.idc.ac.il/british-govt-plagiarizes-meria.html
>He seems more pissed about not attributing it to MERIA than the actual plagerism..."The fact is that the report was a good one. The information was correct and highly useful. If I may be permitted a humorous note, perhaps the world and the Middle East would be a better place if more governments used MERIA articles to explain current developments and inform their people."Note his opinion that the report was a good one. Any good intelligence analyst would be searching for sources just like that one. I'm surprised that it went to the PM with out attribution or sources. Unless the PM's office sanitized it???? Maybe to remove sensitive sources for other data that may be or have been in it????
>Sean Boyne's article (excerpt only):
>http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir030207_2_n.shtml
>Ken Gause's article (except only):
>http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir030207_3_n.shtml FWIW, Jane's research and opinions are so well thought of that they are routinely quoted in Intelligence and Military Papers of many different countries. Jane's has developed sources over the years that most intelligence organizations only wish they had.
>Response from Jane's Intelligence Review Editor:
>http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir030207_1_n.shtml
>Its very good. lets quote it here so anyone who doesn't want to follow the link can read applicable paragraphs;"The dossier on Iraq’s concealment infrastructure published on 3 February 2002 used open sources to make much of its case. These sources included articles from Jane’s Intelligence Review dating from 1997 and November 2002, as well as an article by Ibrahim al-Marashi published in the Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA). That open sources should be used to compile such a report is not in itself surprising – indeed, the use of open sources was acknowledged in the introduction to the document. However, the direct copying of entire paragraphs casts some doubt on the processes used to create dossiers of this type. ""It is usual working practice for the intelligence community to use open sources when they are of sufficient quality. In this way it can focus effort on gathering information that is not so readily available, thereby avoiding wasteful duplication of research. The articles by Gause, Boyne and Marishi present an accurate and comprehensive picture of Saddam’s security apparatus, and hence so does the UK dossier."I Think I've been saying that all along?"However, when an agency produces a report for classified consumption it will usually identify the nature of the sources used. The fact that the UK dossier does not identify the source for each bit of evidence in the report could be taken as misleading, or taken to be an effort to disguise the classified material included in the dossier."Having dealt with Intelligence types I vote for the latter! In my experience intelligence analysts, unlike academics, could give a rats ass less about who gets credit for a paper because they usually have "bigger fish to fry". "The real mistake seems to have been to copy sections wholesale, thus making it obvious which parts of the report come from open sources and which are based on information from the intelligence community."Aha! I agree with this whole heartedly. The "authors" of the report IMO did a lousy job "sanitizing" it. It is obvious what parts were "cut and paste" and which may have come from "sensitive sources and methods". The key here is the apparent failure to disguise the content from intelligence sources. That is the only real important screw up I see.>If you want to find out al-Marashi's and Boyne's own
>opinions of what's been done with their articles, you can do
>your own searches. I can unfortunately only find several
>second-hand quotes in the media (help me here ). Neither can I and some of the attributions may be suspect.. Like the ones published in a website "Together We Explore Nonviolence, Foster Community, Work to end war, Promote Communication & Take Initiatives on Environmental and Justice issues".
I also chose to discount G. Gordon Liddy and Rush Limbaugh for similar reasons...
>Depending
>on which you read, your thoughts could range from believing
>they are flattered to believing they are outraged.
>Don't know for sure but if I had to guess, it would be that al-Marashi as an Academic would be pissed as that is how they make their chops.
The Jane's authors should be used to having their work copied without attribution as it routinely happens.>Now my coffee is cold. Guess I'll go make another and read
>one of the more relaxing threads So is mine! Drat.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Larkie,Actually I could give a rat's ass less about your veracity.
I am more concerned with the effect your "Spin Doctoring" and spreading opinion as unsubstantiated fact will have on people who have not made up their minds or are easily influenced.Look here from your own liberal Press....
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/4077.html#95Its also the reasoning most Americans (of the US variety) ascribe to why Europeans don't like us.I don't think Demeaning, Attacking and making ad-homonym arguments about the US, our President and our Citizens as you and several others on here have could be typified as "Helpful Suggestions" or "Constructive Criticism".Nope I'm not locked in a Cold War Mindset...
I most definitely would not be still fighting the Vietnam War and once was more than enough, thank you very much.FWIW, Given the Restrictions Placed on the Military and the Lack of Political Will by our National Command Authority (LBJ) that war was un-winnable. JFK's original strategy of Counter-Gorilla Warfare, Supplying Modern Weapons and Training the RVN (assuming as he did that they were not near as corrupt as they turned out to be) was probably the correct strategy. In fact that is the strategy we used both times in liberating Afghanistan. With the added "sauce" of intensive aerial bombardment on the 2nd try.My personal opinion is given the above it was inevitable that the American People seeing the mismanagement (Remember we had much higher casualties in WW2 and Korea so it wasn't the casualties - IMO it was the casualties with no gain) would demand an end! I personally have emotional scars over sending home and later receiving friends in Body Bags. Their deaths were IMO caused by 2 things, LBJ/Robert S. McNamara and their complete mismanagement; and the Aid, Encouragement, Support and Comfort given to the enemy while our troops were still in the field by American Citizens. I also was really not too thrilled over being spit on and called a baby killer while in uniform.All this and watching 9/11 has renewed my conviction that we need to do what ever we think it takes to defend our selves. No matter what the rest of you think.George Bush is doing that I think and 70% of Americans think he should!BTW, We really don't care what Europe thinks.
I don't know why that is so difficult a concept to get across.
Most of us are here because our Ancestors did not want to be Europeans or Asians and rejected a lot of the old country Values.
We are not into RealPolitik and Metternich or Chairman Mao's Little Red Book!
Possibly that is the part that galls you the most?
You know, we refuse to accept you telling us you know better about how to do things than we do...
If you really did know better how come you are not America and we are not Europe?We will take down the Axis of Evil and their Allies one by one...
If that means Iran is on deck so be it...I'm sure even Jimmy Carter might approve of that one.
Along with a 100k or so Persian Refugees living in the States.As far as the Axis of Weasel is concerned they are just succeeding in making the UN and possibly NATO irrelevant.
Once they go then we have even less incentive to listen to you europeans.As far as the Veracity of Tony Blair and the "Plagiarized Intelligence Document" goes I think I addressed that all here...http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/4077.html#96As for going for Al Qaeda instead.....
For the last time, We believe we are! We believe there is sufficient evidence that Al Qaeda exists and is supported by the Axis of Evil and consequently we have to take them down one at a time. Al Qaeda being a multi-national organization has to have its infrastructure removed to kill it..
And since we feel we will be doing the Lion's Share of the Fighting our opinion is the one that counts most to us. Like it or not!And to see how silly some of your fellow travelers have become,
Here is an Australian Site that has a Thread Entitledhttp://www2b.abc.net.au/news/forum/newsonline5/"UN should Sanction the Bombing of America"And one wonders why we don't take them seriously or give a big rats tookas about anything they have to say concerning our security!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

So,I'm promoted to being a Spin Doctor now?Another little dig,when you won't discuss rationally.I suggest you go to the CBS website,where your "70%For War" poll is analysed.There it states that,70% the population of the USA is for war with Saddam,BUT,a VERY BIG but,63%,of that same population say only after a second resolution is passed by the UN authorising it.
Only 31% say attack Iraq regardless(your position?).I assume CBS is agin' you too in a leftie plot.I'm afraid you're a xenophobe,going by some of your wilder outbursts.Now,once again,this poll result,broadly speaking,is of the same figures here in Europe.The only thing is that there's no 70%for figure to be analysed.There is a 60\30 split,in a different direction,on two separate questions.10% roughly don't give an opinion.IE only 30% support America at the moment.But 60% would support war if the UN agreed.I'm in the latter camp myself.I realise America is "new" to the diplomatic field,200years V 1800? in Europe,so you tend to be "black or white" as far as decisions are concerned.I'd rather have Saddam deposed,with the world's agreement,than one country going it alone.Only a personal view now,but if T.Blair is half the statesman he's credited to be,he'll not go against a UN decision restricting an immediate war in Iraq.That decision,again,in my opinion,is what's on the cards.Now all along you've missed my rationale behind my postings.I want the USA to act responsibly,and pursue the political process,regarding Iraq.
How you twist that idea to your perceived notion that I'm anti war,anti American,or "giving succour to Saddam",the "axis of evil too?",lives within your preconceived ideas that America is "right" no matter what.Your President is foolish to ignore world opinion.but is strong enough to do so,if he wishes,and by doing so,he furthers the ambitions of OBL,who is not concerned with wars at the moment,but a bigger Ideal of sparking off a Holy War that might take centuries to resolve.If patience is adopted,all the goals of stamping out international terrorism can be achieved,with the support of all nations,and each rogue state weeded out by that same co-operation.Bush said it would be a long haul after 9\11,and that war has only just begun.OBL knew that too,but his plan is for the USA to act impetuously,lose world support(divide and conquor),which helps OBL,and his successors,and so far America is falling into that trap.It's a bit like seiges during the middle ages,but on a world scale.Surround a country,with military might+UN approval.Retaliate if that country pre-empts an attack,whilst surrounded,but you'll have the option to send in experts to disarm it,if it sees that resistance is futile.IE it's one against hundreds of countries.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-03 AT 09:40 PM (EDT)

>So,I'm promoted to being a Spin Doctor now?Another little
>dig,when you won't discuss rationally.
>I'm not the irrational one... I've spent a lot of time on my responses trying to be logical and factual. You seem to be the one big on non-sequiters and presenting opinion as fact not I. In fact where I try to indicate in most cases where I am opinionating if at all not clear, you almost never do.
So if what you are doing isn't spin doctoring what is it?
Dissembling?
You know this is almost insulting. You have missed my point (deliberately?) completely and totally misrepresented my position. Again! How about if I characterize your position as "Surrender at all Costs"? That would be just about as accurate. >I suggest you go to the CBS website,Do you mean the same CBS that we used to jokingly refer to in my youth in uniform as the "Communist Broadcasting Company" because of their preponderance of liberal and left leaning Staff, and more importantly Content critical of the US and approving of the North Vietnamese? This was Not just our opinion but several media bias watch dog groups (including some who purport to be non-sectarian) have called them on that over the years. They've gotten much better lately but still have a reputation for bias and aggressive liberalism akin to the Washington Post's.....>where your "70%For War" poll is analysed.There it states that,70% the population of the USA is for war with Saddam,BUT,a VERY BIG >but,63%,of that same population say only after a second resolution >is passed by the UN authorising it.
>Only 31% say attack Iraq regardless(your position?).I assume
>CBS is agin' you too in a leftie plot.I'm afraid you're a
>xenophobe,going by some of your wilder outbursts. Do you mean this poll?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/07/opinion/polls/main539763.shtmlLet me quote the lead story into the poll...."As Americans weigh the evidence presented Wednesday to the United Nations by Secretary of State Colin Powell, a new CBS News poll shows an increasing percentage believe the case has been made for military action, but most still prefer that the U.S. get U.N. approval before taking such action and would like to give the weapons inspectors more time to work."I am not advocating war no matter how you may inaccurately characterize my arguments! Our President is acting on our behalf and the poll shows that 70% of us believe he is. 70% of us believe the proof offered and case built by Secretary Powell. Unlike you and the rest of Europe apparently! And of course most of us would like a resolution other than a shooting war and hope for a peaceful resolution and would like the concurrence of the UN. What sane person wouldn't? However, I am saying and have been saying all along that the decision is ours not yours! Which once again is my primary point!
>I realise America is "new" to the diplomatic field,200years
>V 1800? in Europe,so you tend to be "black or white" as far
>as decisions are concerned.
>Explain how that is wrong please!
I thought all the temporizing and rationalizing you do in Europe is what allowed Hitler to come to and stay in power and eventually start WW2.>I'd rather have Saddam deposed,with the world's
>agreement,than one country going it alone.So would we! See the CBS poll...
However where we differ is that we are prepared to take action even if you aren't once WE feel the diplomatic niceties have run their course.Interesting note on one of our late night TV shows last night, David Letterman, an ex-patriot Canadian not known for conservative views but for a biting wit and a talent for political Satire, observed that the last time the French insisted on absolute verification they got it shortly there after when Nazi vehicles rode through Paris! The studio audience (in California - not exactly a conservative stronghold) broke up into howls of laughter. The clip was repeated several times today on various network news and commentary shows to the same reaction. Some insight into how we feel eh?>Only a personal
>view now,but if T.Blair is half the statesman he's credited
>to be,he'll not go against a UN decision restricting an
>immediate war in Iraq.That decision,again,in my opinion,is
>what's on the cards.
>And maybe he will experience a Churchillian moment of statesmanship and follow his conscience instead of the opinion polls or his wallet and Johnson like Billary?>Now all along you've missed my rationale behind my
>postings.I want the USA to act responsibly,and pursue the
>political process,regarding Iraq.We have 16 or 17 times since 1991.
The UN has denuded a small forrest printing resolutions that Saddam thumbs his nose at and the Republican Guard uses for toilet paper. The French have used the process to profiteer on Iraqi oil supposedly sold for "humanitarian purposes".
The Germans have a large restive Muslim minority of "Guest Workers" that they are constantly trying to placate...
Hell 25% of the Germans in the East still vote for the Communist Party...
And of course there is all that Iraqi money for Construction and Weapons technology that it is rumored IG Farben's successors profit on. Its easy for you to caution us on restraint when it is not you whose citizens were murdered in large numbers...
It was not London or Manchester or Edinburgh that was attacked.
But as I recall the last time couple of times they were, we came to your aid, for what ever reason you care to believe, we still came. The debt is due! Pay up or forever shut up!

>How you twist that idea to your perceived notion that I'm
>anti war,anti American,or "giving succour to Saddam",the
>"axis of evil too?",lives within your preconceived ideas
>that America is "right" no matter what.
>How dare you characterize my position like that! That is a complete distortion! What you are advocating in my mind is similar to if I came over there and punched you in the face breaking your nose and removing several teeth. And instead of punching me back and defending yourself like a man all you did is stand there bleeding and whimpering and wait for a cop to come to your aid... and when you go to find one (because he doesn't answer your calls for help) he tells you he needs more verifiable proof or if he is French a bribe!
We are merely reserving the right to make the final decisions in our own defense.
"The UN is not a world government and has no dominion over us"... Didn't Saddam say that?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander!
He's hoist on his own petard me thinks!
>Your President is foolish Want to know why I find you and your arguments so offensive and take such great umbrage at them? There it is all in one phrase!>to ignore world opinion.No its not ignored. But when We (in this case He since he speaks for us) determine that going along with it is contrary to our own good and we reserve the right to act in our own interests????>but is >strong enough to do so,if he wishes,and by doing so,he
>furthers the ambitions of OBL,who is not concerned with wars
>at the moment,but a bigger Ideal of sparking off a Holy War
>that might take centuries to resolve.
>Do you mean the same OBL/UBL that Al Jazeera is passing out tapes of Personally Advocating Support for Saddam and the Iraqi People and Martyrdom against the Americans and Israelis?????? The same OBL/UBL who's operatives based in Saddam's Iraq captured and tortured and killed an American Diplomat in the middle east Last year???? Wait, I thought he was Saddam's enemy and there was no connection at all between them?????? Didn't you or several of your pals on here make that point several times?>If patience is adopted,all the goals of stamping out
>international terrorism can be achieved,with the support of
>all nations,and each rogue state weeded out by that same
>co-operation.
>You sound like the Greek/Macedonian Generals counseling Alexander the Great on untying the Gordon Knot! I think he solved that problem with a sword didn't he?>Bush said it would be a long haul after 9\11,and that war
>has only just begun.OBL knew that too,but his plan is for
>the USA to act impetuously,lose world support(divide and
>conquor),which helps OBL,and his successors,and so far
>America is falling into that trap.
>Un Hunh! We'll see how it comes out.
I also subscribe to the Chesty Puller (Gen. USMC) theory about
"When you have them by the Balls their Harts and Minds will soon follow"...
I find it hard to believe that when the people of Iraq are finally liberated form Saddam and his Baathist thugs they won't be dancing in the streets! >It's a bit like seiges during the middle ages,but on a world
>scale.Surround a country,with military might+UN
>approval.You mean like we've been doing to Iraq since 1991????>Retaliate if that country pre-empts an
>attack whilst surroundedover a French Veto in the security council since it might interfere with French Oil Profiteering eh???? >but you'll have the option to send
>in experts to disarm it Do you mean like the UN inspectors Saddam keeps throwing out? >,if it sees that resistance is
>futile.IE it's one against hundreds of countries.Or how about it is 1 against a country 100 times as strong?Bottom line is we will do what we need to to protect ourselves when we feel we need to and all the hand-wringing and obfuscation won't change that in the least.
Saddam, and the West's liberals, should wake up to that. And if they don't like it let me quote Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind""Frankly My Dear I don't give a damn!"
Chuck Schneider
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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Thanks for agreeing with me,in that your reply would condemn CBS as being a "Communist tool."And yes that is the poll,but read CBS's analysis of it,and the 63%,a democratic majority,that do want a second UN resolution,before war commences.Iraq,via Saddam is one nation against the "will of the world" at the moment,and I bet he(Saddam) is s***ing himself,right now,as his enemy OBL calls for Muslim support,if Iraq is attacked.Of course Powell grabs this as "evidence" that Saddam,and OBL are in cahoots,so "lets go get him now".Wow-right into OBL's game plan.Holy War,here we come.If the USA wants to take up Saddams mantle,by going against that selfsame world opinion,and defying UN authority,if an immediate war is vetoed,you're already muttering about discarding NATO,then you're no better than Saddam.For your information about your "staunchest ally"the UK,here is another opinion poll from "The Times",or "The Thunderer",depending on political persuasion.
You'd be hard put to find a more right wing newspaper in the UK,so when they say only one in ten Britons supports war without a second UN resolution,I'd say they're not fiddling the statistics.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-5490-573998,00.htmlIt would seem that you're still persisting with your personal attacks on my political motives,in posting here.I have no political axe at all to grind here,all I ask is that common sense prevails,and that any country explores the democratic rules,set up via the UN(founded to prevent unlawful agression),and once that permission has been granted,you're given the green to proceed.This Iraq mission,for arms inspections etc.,got a totally unanimous decision from the UN.Perhaps if your President had then kept his cool,the process would still have evolved with that same unanimity.However he's shown himself,and his administration,to be precipitate,and thus has lost that initial support.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

>Perhaps if your President had then kept his cool,the process would still have evolved with that same unanimity. However he's shown >himself,and his administration,to be precipitate,and How would that process have continued since the "Axis of Weasel" started (Continued) selling the whole resolution down the drain like they have every other resolution since 1991.. He has shown remarkable forbearance IMO in the Face of their venality.>thus has lost that initial support.We never had it... The only time we did was on 9/12.....
And it didn't take long for the French and German governments to figure out how to turn that little incident (9/11) to their financial advantage did it?Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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CSXALineCharter Member · 871 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Al queda is an enemy - we bombed the target in Yemen in response to an attack on us - we cruise missled Somalia in response to an attack on us -
We evicted the Taliban in response to their support of Al Queda in response to Sept 11thIt's time to settle scores, payback for the 2000 people who died at WTC, I think we are doing it in a most civilized way - heck there are some who say we should have used surgical nuclear strikes.I bet no one knows on this forum what a Nerve Agent will do to a city if it was used - for that matter seen what Sarin will do - I HAVE!(Dont believe me ask my Commanding officer at the US Army Chemical School)Now lets say that 1 jar of sarin (About the Size of a Peanut Butter Jar) was spread in the London Underground at Rush hour
How many people would be there? well those who got the stuff (a drop about the size of the head of a pin) in their eyes mouth or mucus membranes - well they will be dead in a most unpleasant way - in about 3-4 minutes - probably crapping themselves at the same time - the rodent we sprayed with it in school sure did!So whats the Choice - Sit back and let the terrorist do whatever they want - let Saddam make anthrax? (Remember the deaths from Anthrax in the US around 9/11)
Doing nothing will give Al queda Hezbollah and all the other groups time to regroup and organize better - and anytime that someone does something that we dont like well then they will exact a terrible price from them.Saddam is hiding something - it doesnt take Colin Powell to point that out - He is a real threat - Ask the troops on the berm at the Saudi Iraqi border in 91 who got sick when the winds carried something back after the bombing.The Inspectors are there they are inspecting , Hans Blick the head of the Inspectors doesnt believe the Iraqi's are being truthful.I cant believe people - are they aware of some super secret intelligence that the governments are not aware of?The Americans dont want to rule the earth, and anyone that thinks that america is out for world domination is an idiot.But we will continue to pursue a peaceful worldhell if we had no morals we would have already nuked baghdad, and or assasinated Saddam - but we havent.Jason Webb
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PoltergeistMember since Aug-8-02 · 514 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-03 AT 08:44 AM (EDT)

hell if we had no morals we would have already nuked baghdad, and or assasinated Saddam - but we havent.Actually several countries including the US has tried to assinated Saddam. The reason we haven't succeded was that Saddam has 3 bodyguards. Those bodyguards check up on each other. If one of them is an killer then those other two guards would've found out about it way before the person try to shoot him. I have also notice something, Countries that we know for a fact that has Nuclear capabilites we don't try to take out, we don't try to take out N. Korea, Iran (who is now drilling for plotuium) or any other countries like that. You want to know why, because we know if we attack then then hey they will launch a nulcear weapon at us and start a Nuclear holocaust. If you think I'm lying or being Paranoid then hey how come we haven't taken out N. Korea yet? I mean They were clearly in the wrong when they started there Nuclear Program back up. Now if Saddam has weapons of mass destruction (which I think is a total BS, by the way) then how come we are attacking him, I mean wouldn't that just give him a chance to launch a weapon of Mass Destruction on us? I think this whole war on Iraq crap is due to Paranoida in the country and stupid President for fueling that Paranoida. For years we've been saying that Saddam has connection to the Al Queda group, which isn't true because those two are rivals, do you think they are going to help each other? Bush saw that little white lie and decide to use it as an excuse to go to war with Iraq. Ok so he kills his own people, but so do we, thats call DEATH ROW! Does anyone really have the whole story on this mercyless killing dicator whos evil and is the son of Satan etc etc. Yes he did tried to kill Geroge Bush Sr, and yes I know thats IS an excuse to go to War with Iraq but comon why even bothering go to war with Iraq 12 years later??? By now everyone forgot about that and no one really gives a damn. Ok so we pretty much stratch out that he has weapons of mass destruction, hes connected to the Al Queda group, hes mean to his own people (By the way just because he sucks at running the country doesn't mean hes cruel and unsual or whatever crap yall spew out.) and I really don't buy into the excuse that he tried to kill George Bush Sr. I'm not saying thats not a good reason I'm just saying that comon you should've done it sooner. So I pretty much narrow it down to one thing, OIL!!!!!! BLACK GOLD, TEXAS TEA!!!!!! Dick Cheny has talked to several oil company about cleaning up Iraq after the war, and guess what this was way before the thought of going to war with Iraq is even mention. Yes Colin Powell did present with pictures, but have you really seen those things, it could be ANYTHING! Thoese warheads mean crap too, you wanna know why, because without chemical those warheads are just a pow with no bang. Its not the pow thats going to hurt you, its the bang. Well I hope yall will take me seriously, and Im sorry for what I said earlier, its just that Im close to my Uncle and I really don't want him to come back in a coffin. Hes a good guy and Im proud that he is serving our country but comon hes family.

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I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

OK Sean
Let's examine your arguments concerns line by line!
>hell if we had no morals we would have already nuked
>baghdad, and or assasinated Saddam - but we havent.
>
>Actually several countries including the US has tried to
>assinated Saddam. Actually not true, Until Dubya rescinded it in the post 9/11 period US Law (By Executive order of the President) forbid assassination of foreign leaders and this was policed by the Intelligence Oversight Committees (Who by Law get to see EVERYTHING the CIA and other intelligence agencies are doing and have done) of the US Congress... Which Committees until the recent election always had significant Liberal representation
(which of course ensured everything they knew leaked like Hell IMO)>The reason we haven't succeded was that
>Saddam has 3 bodyguards. Those bodyguards check up on each
>other. If one of them is an killer then those other two
>guards would've found out about it way before the person try
>to shoot him.
>You know all this for a fact?
Was it printed in Marvel Comics Maybe!He actually has a Company sized security detachment (Over 100 men)who are all from his tribe and home village of Tikrit and travel with him everywhere! These troops are backed up by a specially selected Regiment (Over a thousand troops) drawn from but not part of the Republican Guards..They also are backed up by a special detachment of the Secret Police (Commanded and Selected by Uday Hussein his son)(Numbers unknown) and said Secret Police are constantly investigating and watching the aforementioned troops! This is all from unclassified, published sources...
You really should learn how to use Google or get a library card and not get your opinions dictated to you by your friends and teachers!(IMHO we are now paying the price for letting the Peace-nix of my generation dodge the draft by attending teacher's schools - the only ones most of them could get into! They are constantly propagandizing our kids instead of teaching them the basic 3Rs - after all teaching Reading and Writing and Arithmetic is So Boring! Don't believe me? all the news media were reporting that a significant number of the Elementary and middle Schools in the Socialist Peoples Republic of California recently observed an In-School peace day coinciding with the anti-war marches on Washington where Outside Agitators lectured the school children on the evils of war, the venality of the current government and the brutality of the military instead of teaching the regular curriculum - when questioned by members of the press and parents about why they only presented one side of the argument the Spokesman for the California Chapter of the NEA stated that the government and the military got all the press coverage they needed and that they (the NEA) felt that our Children needed to hear "The Other Side of the Argument" (Of course they didn't bother consulting with the parents about this since they obviously know better about how to raise our children than we do - they (NEA) have failed miserably in doing what we pay them to do (educate our children) according to standardized test scores and instead of fixing that problem they advance a political agenda - this is straight out of Chairman Mao's little red book - Idiots) still don't believe me? ask any of our members from California or do your own research - they have taught you how to do research haven't they - in between propagandizing you? )(Historical aside for your education: the Tikrit area was also the home of a Muslim Kurd named Sal-ah-al-Din or Saladin in English - the Guy who beat Richard the Lion Heart {Richard Coer de Lion in his native Norman French} militarily and threw the Crusaders out of the Holy Lands at the end of the Crusades)>I have also notice something, Countries that we know for a
>fact that has Nuclear capabilites we don't try to take out,
>we don't try to take out N. Korea, Iran (who is now drilling
>for plotuium) or any other countries like that. You want to
>know why, because we know if we attack then then hey they
>will launch a nulcear weapon at us and start a Nuclear
>holocaust. And how will said nuclear weapon be "launched" at us?
Powered by Camel Flatulence or Kimchee?The more probable method of delivery of any WMD would be to smuggle it into the US. This is where Al-Queda comes in! They are the delivery vehicle for Saddam. They have demonstrated a capability to travel in and out of here at will. Thanks to our friends in the Canadian Government and the outright incompetence of the Border-Patrol and INS!Smuggling is a delivery method that normally precludes large numbers (if they had that many) going off in a holocaust over here!
The Holocaust, If any, will happen in their own country! Afterwards!N. Korea has Long Range Missiles (we view them as medium range but they threaten Japan and S. Korea with them now), that won't reach us Yet! But that is why the administration scrapped the ABM treaty and started building/deploying an ABM system to defend us against just such an act! And also why the Democrats in Congress despite their verbal posturing went along with it!>If you think I'm lying or being Paranoid then
>hey how come we haven't taken out N. Korea yet? I mean They
>were clearly in the wrong when they started there Nuclear
>Program back up. Kim Jong il has clearly made a mistake in estimating American Intentions and Capabilites just like his dear old Dad did in 1948!
I predict that he will negotiate a settlement looking for concessions just like he did with Billary in the mid 90s...
In other words he and the Ayatollahs think they are making Hay while the Sun shines!I also think that we are aware of this and are acting accordingly.
There is also contingency planning apparently going on and troops and equipment is being repositioned just in case Kim Jong il is just as stupid in dealing with us as his father was.
You know he did this before in the mid 90s and Billary actually tore himself away from the "Tootsie or Intern du Jour" long enough to reposition US forces and start planning a Strike at those facilities.. Ol' Kim saw the rifle barrel swing towards him and heard the click of the safety going off and he blinked and backed down all the while blustering like hell! As soon as he thought we weren't paying attention he started up again.IMO, Kim and the Ayatollahs have made a Strategic error in their assessment of US Capabilities and our Will to fight! This too is a legacy of the Vietnam Protests where we changed our policy apparently under pressure of our own left! I believe that won't be the case this time! As it wasn't in '91! I also believe that 9/11 has generated a lot more intestinal fortitude in the US than is generally believed by the Axis of Evil! You have to start some where and I believe the decision is to take down Iraq because of its central strategic location and thus deny the easy supply base for the Terrorists in Palestine and Jordan. With US troops on their Border, Locked and Loaded, I believe we will see a moderation of their actions from Syria and Iran and Saudi Arabia! Quote from USMC Gen. Chesty Puller "When you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will soon follow!">>Now if Saddam has weapons of mass
>destruction (which I think is a total BS, by the way) You read classified daily intelligence briefs eh?
You know more than our government does?
Hell even Hans Blix thinks Saddam is hiding something!
Historically he's acquired WMDs and used them against Iran and his own dissidents. This is a historical fact documented by The International Red Cross among others... >then how come we are attacking him, I mean wouldn't that just
>give him a chance to launch a weapon of Mass Destruction on
>us? I think this whole war on Iraq crap is due to Paranoida
>in the country and stupid President for fueling that
>Paranoida. For years we've been saying that Saddam has
>connection to the Al Queda group, which isn't true because
>those two are rivals, do you think they are going to help
>each other? Yes this is in fact happening! There are now many documented cases of High, Mid and Low Level Contacts between them. Also documented is the fact that Iraq has given refuge to Taliban and Al-Queda members fleeing their defeat in Afghanistan! I believe this all falls under the Machiavellian Heading of "Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend!"Or do you want to accuse Colin Powell of Lying?
Can I watch?>Bush saw that little white lie and decide to
>use it as an excuse to go to war with Iraq. Ok so he kills
>his own people, but so do we, thats call DEATH ROW! This statement is so stupid its almost funny!
On Death Row are convicted Criminals, usually especially Heinous Murderers and the like!
What did 10,000 Kurds do? Are they all murderers! I know a few Kurdish Refugees and if you would provide me your address I'm sure I can arrange for a few of them to explain the difference to you!>Does
>anyone really have the whole story on this mercyless killing
>dicator whos evil and is the son of Satan etc etc. Like Hitler the whole truth will probably only come out when he is gone and we get access to everything? However, like Hitler enough is known now to build a very accurate picture... The rest is details such as exact body counts and which general he gave the order to gas Kurds to!>Yes he
>did tried to kill Geroge Bush Sr, and yes I know thats IS an
>excuse to go to War with Iraq but comon why even bothering
>go to war with Iraq 12 years later??? By now everyone
>forgot about that and no one really gives a damn. Billary! That's why we didn't!
And who forgot about it and doesn't give a damn except Nancy Pilosi and Tom Daschle?
Not the rest of us!
How would you feel, BTW, If it was your Dad he sent the Goons after?>Ok so we
>pretty much stratch out that he has weapons of mass
>destruction, hes connected to the Al Queda group,You might but the rest of us don't!
Unfortunately for your arguments the rest of us have facts backing up our opinions and all you have is what your Incompetent Liberal Kindergarten Teacher told you in Crayon 101 class!> mean
>to his own people (By the way just because he sucks at
>running the country doesn't mean hes cruel and unsual or
>whatever crap yall spew out.) I guess the definition of Mass Murder and Torture is different in NC than the rest of the Civilized World?
Arguments founded on Facts and Reason are Crap?
What do you offer besides personal opinion based on sandbox conversations with your friends prior to nap time??and I really don't buy into
>the excuse that he tried to kill George Bush Sr. You must be almost the only person in the world who does... Especially since high level Iraqi defectors including Saddam's own Son-in-Law (Since Assassinated) have confirmed his direct involvement and the details!>I'm not
>saying thats not a good reason I'm just saying that comon
>you should've done it sooner. Ask Billary! It was on their watch!>So I pretty much narrow it
>down to one thing, OIL!!!!!! BLACK GOLD, TEXAS TEA!!!!!! Now a little lesson in employment of natural resources for you Sean!
We don't use any Iraqi Oil!
We have access to similar reserves of our own and our friends in the North Slope and the Gulf of Mexico!
On the Other Hand France and Germany do not!
Wonder why they oppose us now?BTW, Russia which has bigger undeveloped reserves in Siberia has approached us about selling directly to us. It was reported in the press to be a major topic of conversation between Bush and Putin on several occasions. And also at the ministerial level!>Dick Cheny has talked to several oil company about cleaning
>up Iraq after the war, and guess what this was way before
>the thought of going to war with Iraq is even mention.How do you know this?
Were you there?
Do you know some one who was?
This was originally reported in the Iraqi press!
And later picked up and parroted by the Liberal wing of the media!
Do you get your opinions and facts from them?
If so, I can get you a hell of a deal on a bridge in Brooklyn!FWIW, This is the same kind of Dis-Information the Old USSR and the Nazis in Germany were so good at producing and you fell for it Hook, Line and Sinker...
Did you know Franklin D. Roosevelt was Jewish?
So was Winston Churchill?
And So that is why they were opposed to the "Thousand Year Reich"!
Herr Reichsminister Goebbels did in the 30s and 40s and spewed it to the world! I guess you would have beleived him too!
> Yes
>Colin Powell did present with pictures, but have you really
>seen those things, it could be ANYTHING! So now the analysts in the CIA and DIA and British Intelligence are also Lying? Can I watch you tell them that!
Especially with your tremendous expertise in Photo Interpretation which is almost an art on its own!
>Thoese warheads
>mean crap too, you wanna know why, because without chemical
>those warheads are just a pow with no bang. 1st semi-intelligent thing you've said.
However, are you aware that as a general rule, until the advent of binary chemical weapons (which is a level of technical expertise that our analysts think is above the Iraqis)
It was unsafe to your own troops and population to store Chemical Weapons "loaded"?
You "load" them when you send them forward to the troops for use!
How long do you think it takes to load them?>Its not the pow
>thats going to hurt you, its the bang. Well I hope yall
>will take me seriously, and Im sorry for what I said
>earlier, its just that Im close to my Uncle and I really
>don't want him to come back in a coffin. Hes a good guy and
>Im proud that he is serving our country but comon hes
>family. And how does this explain your many misrepresentations and factual errors! Lots of people have Folks "on the line". If you figure 7 relatives for every "troop" then we are talking 700,000 relatives for every 100,000 troops over there!
Your apologizing for Saddam and casting aspersions on the US only help Saddam and contribute directly to encouraging Saddam in his miscalculations about American Will Power and can contribute directly to your uncle coming home in a box! Think about that!>I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at
>least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem Why does you quoting a Sociopathic Rapper with Criminal Delusions and a demonstrated disdain for women not surprise me?BTW, You might want to ask for them to take a break from proselytizing you at the Little Red School House and teach you how to use a Spelling Checker!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
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Long Island RailsMember since Sep-25-02 · 59 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Chuck, You are on the so on the target all of the time.Here is a laugh for you.Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot.You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?__________________________________________________________________Liberal Answer:Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack?Could we run away? What does my wife think?What about the kids?Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?What does the law say about this situation?Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me?If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.____________________________________________________________Conservative Answer:BANG!____________________________________________________________Texan's Answer:BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of clip being ejected and fresh clip installed)Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?" Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..."BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!Daughter: "Nice grouping Daddy!"

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

ROFLMAO!You know I once heard that a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 141

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Brad 110Member since Aug-31-02 · 235 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Winston Churchill said it best (as he did with so many other things):
Anyone under 30 who is not a liberal has no heart. Anyone over forty who is not a conservative has no brain.Brad Meyer

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rpicardi1Charter Member · 652 posts

RE: Military Movements.

The Ideal Liberal Solution; The Glock was taken from you months ago "for your own good and family safety." Results, as you scream for help, you and the family become another number in those growing violent crime statistics as a result of gun control.SRV Ron

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Brad 110Member since Aug-31-02 · 235 posts

RE: Military Movements.


> Results, as you scream for help, you and the family become
>another number in those growing violent crime statistics as
>a result of gun control. "Gun control is the notion that African Americans will be better off when only Mark Furman has a gun."Brad Meyer

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PoltergeistMember since Aug-8-02 · 514 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Military Movements – image 142

You know Chuck, I might've thought you were a higher being (meaning smarter and have more widsom) and you pretty much present a good case, but yet it was once again ruined by smart alleck comments about what school I go to, and my home state. Wow, you really sure show me with your sucky insult. You know all this for a fact?
Was it printed in Marvel Comics Maybe!I do not know this for a fact but this was reported by my Uncle when he was in the Gulf War. and no I don't read Marvel comics, I read Mad Magazine who has the guts to not be an ass kisser like half of America is right now. You really should learn how to use Google or get a library card and not get your opinions dictated to you by your friends and teachers!I do use Google and I do go to the library. I also have been lucky to have the Best teachers, the Teacher I had prepared me for college and I am now maintaining a 3.5 GPA average. Plus my frineds also think this whole war on Iraq is stupid and pointless maybe I should bring them in here too.
still don't believe me? ask any of our members from California or do your own research - they have taught you how to do research haven't they - in between propagandizing you?Yes they did teach me how to do my own reaserch, and no they don't propanganda me, they taught me to think for myself and not follow the popular belief, just because something is popular doesn't make it right. And how will said nuclear weapon be "launched" at us?
Powered by Camel Flatulence or Kimchee?Think about it Chuck, if North Korea ALREADY Have 2, count them 2 Nuclear bombs ready to go, then don't you think they would've already figured out how to get them to almost anywhere in the world? Smuggling is a delivery method that normally precludes large numbers (if they had that many)I'll give you this, after all I think I gave a situation in another post about how all they need is a hand full of poltouim a rented Cessna, and to be near a water source and hey there goes our water. Hell even Hans Blix thinks Saddam is hiding something!
Historically he's acquired WMDs and used them against Iran and his own dissidents. This is a historical fact documented by The International Red Cross among others...Hey theres a first time of being wrong for Hans Blix, and notice that Hans Blix never said "Weapons of Mass Destruction". Thats the keyword people. Or do you want to accuse Colin Powell of Lying?
Can I watch?Hey invite him to your house, invite me to your house and I'll do it, I'm not afraid. Like Hitler the whole truth will probably only come out when he is gone and we get access to everything? However, like Hitler enough is known now to build a very accurate picture... The rest is details such as exact body counts and which general he gave the order to gas Kurds to!Ah yes comparing Hitler to Saddam or Saddam to Hilter, another pathetic excuse of the Bush adminstration for trying to justify its reason for War to Iraq. Haven't yall notice that Saddam is not out for world conquest???? Hitler Was!!! Hitler also rose the German Army out of its ashes from WW1 when France, UK, and US decided to take away their armed forces. Saddam already has his Army!!! Billary! That's why we didn't!
And who forgot about it and doesn't give a damn except Nancy Pilosi and Tom Daschle?
Not the rest of us!
How would you feel, BTW, If it was your Dad he sent the Goons after?I bet you don't have to guts to say "Bill Clinton". Like it or not the only crime Bill has ever done was not keeping his personal life under control. Hes did a hell lot better in his 8 years in office then George W. Bush is doing right now! Personally if someone tried to assinate my dad, well they wouldn't have a chance because my dad would be waiting for them with a 12 gauge shotgun already pointed at the door where they will walk in. Maybe thats where they screwed up at. Incompetent Liberal Kindergarten Teacher told you in Crayon 101 class!*tsk tsk tsk* more petty insults, comon Chuck try to do at least one argument with me where you don't resort to petty insults!!!! What do you offer besides personal opinion based on sandbox conversations with your friends prior to nap time?I do have a right to my opinion, and hey you didn't have to reply to my orginal post so your actually in the wrong, and once again more petty insults.
You must be almost the only person in the world who does... Especially since high level Iraqi defectors including Saddam's own Son-in-Law (Since Assassinated) have confirmed his direct involvement and the details!
 Ah, read the whole thing before answearing
Now a little lesson in employment of natural resources for you Sean!
We don't use any Iraqi Oil!
We have access to similar reserves of our own and our friends in the North Slope and the Gulf of Mexico!
On the Other Hand France and Germany do not!
Wonder why they oppose us now?You know just because we don't use Iraqi oil now doesn't mean they aren't making plans to, I mean if we get Iraq oil under our control guess what, that means virtually free oil for us, and we won't have to drill in Alaska and hey we'll still be buying from the Russian, and Mexico!!!!!! How do you know this?
Were you there?
Do you know some one who was?
This was originally reported in the Iraqi press!
And later picked up and parroted by the Liberal wing of the media!
Do you get your opinions and facts from them?
If so, I can get you a hell of a deal on a bridge in Brooklyn!Its a known fact that Repbulicans do favor for Big Business, the Oil companies are big business and they did fund George W. Bush campagin, because why else would Georgie Boy here even mention drilling in Alaska if they didn't? If this is true then how can there be any doubt in your mind that Dick Cheny would also be doing business with the oil companies?
So now the analysts in the CIA and DIA and British Intelligence are also Lying? Can I watch you tell them that!
Especially with your tremendous expertise in Photo Interpretation which is almost an art on its own!
Ok Think back to the JFK adminstration, Remeber that whole stand-off we had with Cuba??? Do you remember the Bay of Pigs? What went wrong there, why did we landed on the shores of Cuba right in front of Castro Summer Home??? Wanna know why because we collected poor, inaccurate Data!! How do you know that its not happening again with Iraq? These govermental type people aren't Gods, they do make miskate!!! and once again invite the CIA and DIA, and BI to your house, invite me to your house and I'll tell them off. Your apologizing for Saddam and casting aspersions on the US only help Saddam and contribute directly to encouraging Saddam in his miscalculations about American Will Power and can contribute directly to your uncle coming home in a box! Think about that!We forgot Friendly fire. and American forces are also prone to miscalculations.Why does you quoting a Sociopathic Rapper with Criminal Delusions and a demonstrated disdain for women not surprise me?Why don't you actually buy a copy of all 3 of his albums and his sountrack and actually listein to them, with an open mind and ear instead of having the media lead you around like a dog. BTW, You might want to ask for them to take a break from proselytizing you at the Little Red School House and teach you how to use a Spelling Checker!Don't you ever get tired of the insults???? By now I'm laughing my head off!!

Military Movements – image 143 Military Movements – image 144 Military Movements – image 145 Military Movements – image 146 Military Movements – image 147 Military Movements – image 148 Military Movements – image 149 Military Movements – image 150


I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem

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Long Island RailsMember since Sep-25-02 · 59 posts

RE: Military Movements.

This should put it and end to this.
No matter your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war,
this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of
background, for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily
Mirror, it is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not
supportive of the’ Colonials across the Atlantic.'London Daily Mirror
September 11, 2002One Year Later, written by Tony ParsonsONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting--the
mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's Mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless
That surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country—too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans-but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach. America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries-were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them? What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody’s son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children, some unborn.
And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame
For their meticulously planned slaughter? These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission. The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11. Remember, remember. Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember, remember - and realize that America has never retaliated for
9/11 in anything like the way it could have. So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex...So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily firedTheir semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti. AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That
it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being
raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?
When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -
And didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.
The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell,"
If America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand – assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's
poodle.
But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.
Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the
burning towers.Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the
Hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up >rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, oh mighty one!
Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in
Human history was committed against America.No, do more than remember. Never forget!
Amen!

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Long Island RailsMember since Sep-25-02 · 59 posts

RE: Military Movements.

So basically...turn the other cheek and ignore it and hope it goes away and blame it on George Bush. How ignorant is that attitude. Your lives in England have changed as much as ours since 9/11 and it was not brought on by George Bush. We (England and US) are allies. We stand buy each other especially if there is a threat to either one of us. British Citizens were murdered in the World Trade Center. If Saddam Hussein had any remote chance of being tied in with al-Qaida, than I say eliminate him. Do you get the hint?

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Yes,I do indeed get the hint.Now just what is the mental block,regarding my posts,that seems to get Americans,on this forum,thinking that I'm anti this war?
I'm anti the way the prelude to war is being conducted,especially the gung ho,and jingoistic posturings of American\British diplomats.If you reread,and comprehend them,(my posts)you'll see that my concern is that America,and England,(Britain)in my humble opinion,are going about it the wrong way.IE stating that whatever the UN decides,they'll attack come hell or high water.Being the defenders of the free world,you're sending a message,that flies in the face of those lofty ideals.Namely if you're armed enough,you can do as you like,and to hell with world opinion.That idea is not so far away from that of the dictators you seek to destroy.Perhaps I'm on a different wavelength,as far as other correspondants here are concerned,but I don't think that I am,as far as opinion is concerned,here in the UK,and the grassroots of opinion in the USA.People on both sides of the Atlantic want the UN to sanction any further action regarding Iraq.Get that agreement from the UN,and you'll find that far from causing world division,you'll have world support(apart from the usual suspects that won't support war under any circumstances).At PMQ's(Prime Minister's questions)today,televised each week from the UK parliament live,Blair stated that if Blix intimated that Iraq was now co-operating fully with the arms inspectors,he was willing to give those same inspectors the time needeed to disarm Iraq.He also intimated that he favoured a new UN resolution before final commitment of troops to action. How he squares this with Bush is his problem,but I'm pretty sure both of them don't want to be seen as being outside international law,if they start hostilities outwith UN approval.Bin Ladens latest tape also shows,if analysed with care,that he doesn't care if Saddam is deposed or killed,as he's an "Infidel" and a "socialist",not my words,but OBL's,but he welcomes America attacking Iraq,especially unilateraly,as he OBL can cite this as an attack on Islam,to be avenged by other muslims everywhere.Getting UN approval,sidelines OBL too,and the Arab world can assist in the removal of both Saddam,and OBL.Patience is the watchword,as this UN approval is weeks,rather than days away.However,with level headed diplomacy,I don't see that it's an impossible task.There's also an undercurrent,highlighted by this crisis,that politicians,once elected by their electorate,have a right to take that same electorate to war,without further consultation,or agreement.They assume blithly that once the troops are fighting,the electorate will support those troops.They will do so in fact,human nature and patriotism being what it is,but resentment against the politicians remains.Far better to get that support prior to their committment.

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Long Island RailsMember since Sep-25-02 · 59 posts

RE: Military Movements.

No mental block, just very sensitive to this subject. Especially since I have lost friends in the 9/11 tragedy and being a witness to the destruction. This has not just hit close to home, this has hit home. I don't mean to take anything out on you personally.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LarkieYou still don't get it do you....
And of course you are still misrepresenting our position..We (Our Government) did not say
"stating that whatever the UN decides,they'll attack come hell or high water"We (Our Government) did say That we reserve the right to make the final decisions concerning American (US) security....That is a different Kettle of fish...To translate it into simple terms it means....
I'm not going to fast for ya am I?We are attempting to go through the UN channels to disarm Saddam. However, if he doesn't and the UN vetoes any direct Action and we determine he is still a "Clear and Present Danger" (term of art there) to the Security of the United States then as the Sovereign Country the United States of America we have the right to take action, irregardless of the UN's position.Now why would we disregard the UN's wishes you ask?
Well, Did you read the Articles in the Various News Media the last couple of days concerning that the "Axis of Weasel" is already threatening to veto sanctions (sanctions for God's sake not direct action) against North Korea after they, North Korea, restarted their Nuclear Program????
The Same "Axis of Weasel" is effectively blocking Nato from providing defensive help ( Defensive Help not Offensive Help ) to Turkey in light of Saddam's and UBL's direct threats to them since they base American Troops....
Because "It might be construed as approving American Intervention".... (What a bunch of hand wringing Pu$$ies IMO )
And Europeans wonder why Americans laugh at them and refuse to take them seriously any more? (That's a fact borne out by Fox News polls among others)The good news is we keep our word or try damn hard. Turkey will have any Defensive Help they Need.. I guess that is our naive, simplistic, politically immature nature eh?We should be more like Germany and France, Eh?In a Pig's Ass!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 151

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Nice touch Chuck,reasonable discussion,thanks.I'll try to reciprocate.I don't know how the American media reports the present crisis over there regarding the "axis of Weasel",I assume you're referring to France and Germany?and the impasse within NATO,and possibly the UN.It is reported here,with no direct refuting,but plenty of ire,by our British politicians,that the Germans\French\Belgians see the American request to site anti-missile batteries in Turkey,as not being defensive,but as a sign that they might be needed,as the USA\UK intends to invade with or without considering the UN position,which is still to be decided,on the arms inspectors report.It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned,but there is a Gallic logic to it.I assume,if UN diplomacy works,they'll be only too pleased to allow such weapons to be in place,when that bridge is crossed.As for the EU and N.Korea,it is reported that a European diplomatic mission is being dispatched to N.Korea to try to resolve the crisis there,so it would appear that they're as concerned about the nuclear issue as you are.There's just been a two hour televised discussion regarding Iraq here,very interesting,but the main verdict is that not much has changed regarding British public opinion.It seems that the politicians will only gain positive assent to war if the UN options are fully explored.An interesting point,regarding American input,was that one of your movers and shakers Richard Perle,I think that's right,was unaware that the French\German stance,regarding US\UK "immediate" military action is supported by Russia and China.Both nations that have veto powers in the UN.However,again my personal view,if the arms report provides evidence that shows action is necessary,they as responsible members of the UN would be forced by peer pressure to give the same unanimity as with the existing Iraqi resolution.IE sanction military action.I was surprised at this unawareness,as it has been common knowledge over here,since the end of last week.I assume he was genuinely unaware,having missed reports,or it has not been reported fully in the States yet.I would have thought that a person of his gravitas,appearing on such a show would have been fully briefed.Without being patronising(let me know if I am),our discussion here may show a similar initial misunderstanding of motives,objectives etc,that the politicians are struggling with on a far higher and serious plane.Let's hope they too can get to discussion of common interests.

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

"axis of Weasel"
Yep that's France, Germany, Belgium at this point...
It was coined by one of our political satyrists....
In American Folklore the "Weasel" is considered Treacherous, Sly and Completely untrustworthy... To "Weasel" is to temporize and attempt to justify objectionable actions.... Situational Ethics is a pre-requisite for a "Weasel"....Given what we believe about French and German Self Serving and Venal Motives ( And I guess Belgium too at this point )... Weasel fits Schroeder and Chirac to a T in the current American lexicon....>It is reported here,with no direct refuting,but plenty of
>ire,by our British politicians,that the
>Germans\French\Belgians see the American request to site
>anti-missile batteries in Turkey,as not being defensive,but
>as a sign that they might be needed,as the USA\UK intends to
>invade with or without considering the UN position,which is
>still to be decided,on the arms inspectors report.And over here it is viewed as an attempt by the Axis of Weasel to block the US/UK policy since Saddam has threatened to attack Turkey if we attack him what with there being US troops stationed in Turkey... They apparently feel that they are de-railing our attack by this tactic... Unfortunately "IF" we decide to attack we will provide help to Turkey on our own if need be.... All they are doing is destroying NATO... There are things they have said and done that the US feels is so beyond the pale... that They better hope that either the war never happens and/or Saddam stays in power because gasoline will be 300euros/liter the day after in France/Germany... Airbus will never be able to give an Aircraft to a US owned Airline let alone sell one.... And no technology will ever be exported to them again or in a long time.... This is my prediction....
When Hans Blix and Mohammad al Baradi make their report to the UN friday and if they say Iraq is in material breach or there are serious non-compliance issues... These Bozos (as in Clowns) will still refuse to do anything as it might upset the cushy little deals they have going with the Iraqis and possibly their own personal financial position (If you can say it about Bush, I can say it about Schroeder and Chirac) As a citizen of the UK what are you doing following France's lead on anything? Did you never learn from 1914 and 1936.....IIRC the last time France asked for Positive Proof of some one's cheating on an arms agreement/armistice it (the proof) marched through Paris shortly there after in Feldgray and wearing a Swastika insignia.... As I recall you lot were forced to flee for your lives at Dunkirk and shortly there after the blitz started..... The last time you rely-ed on us... we put several million men, billions of dollars in equipment and over 100,000 american casualties at your disposal (Along with underwriting your war-bonds) shortly after that we kicked in the door to "Fortress Europe" and began, along with your troops the long march to Berlin... Now tell me again why you pay any attention to the French?>
>As for the EU and N.Korea,it is reported that a European
>diplomatic mission is being dispatched to N.Korea to try to
>resolve the crisis there,so it would appear that they're as
>concerned about the nuclear issue as you are.
>Ahah! Now it is plain, the roadblock to UN action by the EU is to allow the EU to honk their own diplomatic horn(s) in an area they have no influence in and haven't since the end of the Colonial Era!
>There's just been a two hour televised discussion regarding
>Iraq here,very interesting,but the main verdict is that not
>much has changed regarding British public opinion.It seems
>that the politicians will only gain positive assent to war
>if the UN options are fully explored.
>So? We will still make our decision based on our own security!>An interesting point,regarding American input,was that one
>of your movers and shakers Richard Perle,I think that's
>right,was unaware that the French\German stance,regarding
>US\UK "immediate" military action is supported by Russia and
>China.Both nations that have veto powers in the UN.
>I find that hard to believe that Dr. Perle who has been a security expert with a world wide reputation as a strategic thinker would not know that.... Sounds like it came out of the same group that is reporting the "Movement to have the UN sanction the Bombing of the US" and just as credible...
Maybe he didn't know they had actually vetoed it at the point he asked... It is being reported in the Press of here that both Russia and China see this as an opportunity to "get even" with the US for past defeats....>However,again my personal view,if the arms report provides
>evidence that shows action is necessary,they as responsible
>members of the UN would be forced by peer pressure to give
>the same unanimity as with the existing Iraqi resolution.IE
>sanction military action.
>I got $10.us that says they won't no matter what! Or they will deny the validity of the reports... Just like Chirac has done with the data Colin Powell has shared with them (including stuff that's still highly classified) in spite of the fact that it is reported that the DSTE (I think thats it, the French CIA) has validated most of Powell's report independantly... Including the photo interprutations...
>
>Without being patronising(let me know if I am),our
>discussion here may show a similar initial misunderstanding
>of motives,objectives etc,that the politicians are
>struggling with on a far higher and serious plane.Let's hope
>they too can get to discussion of common interests. Actually unlike us I think the Axis of Weasel has a financial stake in this... And is doing this for the most sinister of motives....
FWIW, I served on a NATO (No Action Talk Only we called it - prophetic isn't it) staff when/after the Bombing of Qaddafi and the French displayed the same intransigence concerning Mr. Qaddafi's guilt and expressed openly the feelings that "Now you American's will see about a defeat!".... Tell me again why you blokes are believing anything that comes from France!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 152

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I can't vouch for it,but I expect the rest of the UK public,that agrees with the French\German stance,arrived at that opinion by their own free will.I did.There is a gut feeling(I can hear you say "gutless")in Europe,not against the war itself,but the anciliary dangers that could be unleased by too hasty a rush into war.There is also native resentment,here in the UK,that our prime minister agreed with Bush,on the build up to war,without any prior consultations in the British parliament.Another statistic,emerging from this,is that this is the first time the UK will have invaded a foreign country in over 100 years in a non retalitary situation.Now back to that TV discussion.It wasn't a documentary,but live debate with representatives of our government,opposition parties,European,Middle Eastern politicians,Americans etc.,etc.The discussion developed,not into a "them and us"(war,no war) scenario,but as a well reasoned discussion of the merits of attacking\waiting until all diplomatic measures fail.Perhaps I only heard what I wanted to hear,but I don't think so,and perhaps you're only now hearing of the "Russia China plot" to "get back" at the US,because it has come as a surprise to Dr Perle,and the US in general,that the situation has been emerging for a week or so.I reckon he should be able to find out for himself,rather than perhaps having "advisors".I don't think there is a "plot".I think that it's a strengthening of the UN,after the cold war era,to say to ANY nation that war must be justified under it's rules.There is no longer the need for the US to "lead" the free world with the same emphasis that was required when it and the USSR were squared up for half a century or so.The first UN resolution initiating a resumption of arms inspections,and the reporting back to the UN that is due tomorrow,was achieved without one member of the UN voting "nay".China and Russia are realists in this new world situation now.Let's face it they've got their own brand of terrorists too.I believe if the US\UK rein in,until the "I"'s have been dotted,and the "T"'s crossed,by UN approval,then the removal of Saddam can be achieved,without some other terrorist cell springing up from that action,as every other country will be in agreement with that decision.I watched(who didn't?)the 9\11 event unfolding,and share that sense of loss.One of the Company's I worked for,in my past,had their American base in the buildings concerned."Worldwide Shipping".I've admired,so far,how Bush resisted the urge to lash out blindly at all and sundry suspected of the deed.Don't let him spoil that record,by jumping the gun,so close to achieving a world mandate,and the first step in the wider war against terrorism.It's not just the US's war,it's the World's war,so consider their judgements,as they reach their decisions on a common goal.As the old saying goes,"the first step is the hardest"

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements. (Fine French Whines)

Larkie just to show you how much effect the EU's arguments are having on the US....
Here is a great web page (Satire) on MSNBC (not known for taking a contriversial stand on anything )http://www.msnbc.com/news/872088.asp?0pu=a0In case it scrolls away I will quote some of the better parts here."House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), angered by France’s policies on agriculture as well as on Iraq, has told associates he would like to target two of that nation’s most sacred drinks: water and wine. At a GOP retreat this past weekend, Hastert talked to House members about slapping restrictions on French exports of bottled water and fine wine." - MSNBC<note: Dennis Hastert is the 3rd highest ranking elected official in the US> " HASTERT HAS instructed Republican colleagues to determine whether Congress should pass legislation that would impose new health standards on imported bottles of Evian and other popular French waters. The speaker also is exploring whether the United States should require “bright orange warning labels” on French wines that are clarified with bovine blood, a top aide said.
“People should know how the French make their wine,” Hastert spokesman John Feehery said. Republicans are trying to determine how much French wine on the market has been clarified, or essentially made clearer, by using bovine blood, a process banned after the scare involving bovine spongiform encephalopathy — or “mad cow disease” — in the late 1990s.
Two U.S. wine experts contacted by The Washington Post said a few French wineries used bovine blood as a clarifier before the ban. Such a warning label for any wine would be akin to a “Mr. Yuck” stamp, one expert said. " — Washington Post, Feb. 12"Yuck, indeed. With Congress armed for full frontal retaliation, France will need more than a Maginot Line to defend itself. You can be sure, if France doesn’t shape up soon, Congress will take even stronger action. Here are 10 more legislative proposals Congress is surely considering:

1) Class-action lawsuits on street mimes.

2) No French scientist may clone Jerry Lewis.

3) Sin tax on french fries. Must be revenue neutral — so taxes cut on fish and chips.

4) Further showings of the movie “The French Connection” can no longer include the big car chase scene.

5) Poodle grooming now a capital crime. Tony Blair exempted.

6) New litmus test for judicial nominees — may not add French dressing to salads.

7) No more diplomatic immunity — French ambassador to the U.S. now required to bathe daily.

8) Saddam’s home in exile? Paris.

9) For good measure, French-speaking Montreal Expos banned from playing on American baseball fields.

10) No French water in our fallout shelters.

Do these proposals sound equally naïve? Perhaps. But spell naïve backward, and you get Evian. If Congress adopts any of these, no doubt the French will be toast.
Vive le Congress!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard Mortman, a former editor and senior columnist for National Journal’s Hotline, is a producer for “Hardball with Chris Matthews.” Tune into “Hardball” at 9 p.m. ET, M-F, exclusively on MSNBC cable.

"




Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 153

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I notice the spelling and grammatical level of your post has been raised somewhat. That means you were either sloppy on the original posts or were deliberately trying to conceal your actual educational level and were TROLLING for an argument!
>"and no I don't read Marvel comics, I read Mad Magazine who has the guts to not be an ass kisser like half of America is right now."I rest my case!"I also have been lucky to have the Best teachers, the Teacher I had prepared me for college and I am now maintaining a 3.5 GPA average."Did he/she help you with this post? Since the grammar/spelling is so much improved from your original posts. At least in the beginning.BTW to put the 3.5 GPA in perspective, If you are in college now Where and Whats your major and what year are you in? If still in High School what track are you on and what grade are you in?
A 3.5 in Shop is a little different than a 3.5 in Engineering. "Plus my frineds also think this whole war on Iraq is stupid and pointless maybe I should bring them in here too."I think that is called "Herd Mentality".
Who cares what your "frineds" think?
The important thing would be what you think and how you formed that opinion! Preferably with out validating it with "Your frineds".If you feel you can't go it on your own then Go ahead and bring them on.
Maybe several of you can collaborate on producing a single coherent thought?"I bet you don't have to guts to say "Bill Clinton". Like it or not the only crime Bill has ever done was not keeping his personal life under control. Hes did a hell lot better in his 8 years in office then George W. Bush is doing right now! Personally if someone tried to assinate my dad, well they wouldn't have a chance because my dad would be waiting for them with a 12 gauge shotgun already pointed at the door where they will walk in. Maybe thats where they screwed up at"OK I think I have to run this through Babelfish and get it translated before I can answer it!"You know just because we don't use Iraqi oil now doesn't mean they aren't making plans to,"But if you can't prove that, its just a theory or opinion and not a fact. You should present it as such in the interests of accuracy. To do otherwise is disingenuous. ( a form of lying )"I mean if we get Iraq oil under our control guess what, that means virtually free oil for us, and we won't have to drill in Alaska and hey we'll still be buying from the Russian, and Mexico!!!!!! "And this is bad for us how? Living in NC do you drive a pickup or SUV like most people down there do? (AAA Figures not my opinion alone)
If so, then would you rather pay $1.50 a gallon or $5.00 a gallon?
However, it still won't be free. The President has made it a goal of any Regime Change to use the profits from any Iraqi oil to "rebuild" Iraq, Post Saddam. This means Iraqi oil will be sold Free-Market so there will be a profit.
BTW, Did you know that under a UN Humanitarian resolution Iraq is allowed to sell 2 million Barrels of Oil a day? Originally the number was 500K Barrels and the proceeds were to be used for Humanitarian (Food and Medicine) relief for the Iraqi people. This was subsequently raised to the 2M Barrel number with the Concurrence of the Clinton Administration. And all this was supposed to be monitored by the UN Inspection teams. When Saddam kicked the Inspection Teams out in the mid 90s there was no longer a way to verify where the funds were going or how much oil was actually produced and sold. So given this state of affairs the US proposed that the permission to sell the oil be rescinded until such time as the inspectors were allowed back in. This proposal was vetoed in the Security Council by France!
So now Saddam has the proceeds of at least 2M barrels of Oil a day to use as he sees fit with no international oversight. You are aware that he has built at least a dozen palaces (Which may actually be covers for Military or Weapons facilities - Which is why the UN Inspection Teams want to get into them so badly) while Iraqi children starve and he blames this on a non-existent blockade.
BTW, Do you want to guess who buys 70% of that oil and at below fair market prices? France! Makes ya kind of wonder about their true reasons for opposing the US doesn't it?"Its a known fact that Repbulicans do favor for Big Business, the Oil companies are big business and they did fund George W. Bush campagin, because why else would Georgie Boy here even mention drilling in Alaska if they didn't? If this is true then how can there be any doubt in your mind that Dick Cheny would also be doing business with the oil companies?"I take back what I said about your spelling. Who are the "Repbulicans"?"Repbulicans do favor for Big Business" This is of course an Urban Myth! All politicians of any stripe do this.
Ken Lay and the Enron Crooks (You don't get any bigger business than that)donated the lions share of their contributions to Billary and the DNC. In fact they contacted former members of the Clinton Administration for help prior to going down. Not members of the Bush Administration.
"Georgie Boy" would mention Drilling in Alaska as a method to get more oil that is under our direct control into our pipelines. Have you looked at gas prices lately compliments of OPEC? He also suggested that said Alaskan Oil be drilled using the latest technology (1 well head with multiple underground wells drilled from it to deposits some miles away in order to minimize the effects on the environment). Oil is a strategic resource and all Presidents are forced to "do business" with Oil Companies in the interests of National Security (IE: if the oil stops then so does our economy and by inference our society). You are thinking of taking Macro-Economics aren't you?"Or do you want to accuse Colin Powell of Lying?
Can I watch?""Hey invite him to your house, invite me to your house and I'll do it, I'm not afraid.""These govermental type people aren't Gods, they do make miskate!!! and once again invite the CIA and DIA, and BI to your house, invite me to your house and I'll tell them off."

I just revised my estimate of your age back down to about 13.
Colin Powell for one has proven his value and personal courage to this country repeatedly for over 30 years. What have you done? IMHO you are not fit to shine General (ret) Powell's shoes!"Ok Think back to the JFK adminstration, Remeber that whole stand-off we had with Cuba??? Do you remember the Bay of Pigs? What went wrong there, why did we landed on the shores of Cuba right in front of Castro Summer Home??? Wanna know why because we collected poor, inaccurate Data!! How do you know that its not happening again with Iraq? OK let's get the History Correct since you must have slept through some of it or the NEA decided it was Politically Incorrect to point out Faults in JFK's Camelot...1. The Bay of Pigs happened 1st. It was planned by the CIA (Allen Dulles) under the Eisenhower administration and JFK inherited it and initially approved it. However after the troops had already landed (Mostly Cuban Refugees trained by the US Military with a sprinkling of actual US Advisers and Support types) JFK Started dithering under the input of several of his aides who despised Allen Dulles and He changed his mind (Reasons and theories as to why are legion) and withdrew the US Navy and Airforce this depriving the people (including some US Marines and Navy Types) of Air and Artillery (Naval) support. He abandoned US troops to the enemy by not giving them adequate support once they were committed. (Sounds a bit like Somalia on Billary's watch doesn't it?)Cuba cut them to pieces and marched them off lock stock and barrel to the isle of pines (IIRC on the prison). Where over a year later we were forced to pay him (Castro) an actual Ransom to get them back! This is a historical fact and I knew at least one Marine who spent time in Cuban Captivity.
2. The Cuban Missile Crisis followed on JFK's watch. JFK actually backed the Russians and Cubans down. However the missiles were re-introduced along with very strong anti-air defenses while we were pre-occupied with Vietnam.
Poor intelligence had very little if anything to do with either.
A lack of decisiveness by our National Command Authorities was more to blame.
In fact I think one of the objectives of the Bay of Pigs was to actually "Decapitate" the Cuban Government by taking out Castro. If it had worked a lot of "Cuban Intervention" in Latin America and Africa would have not happened."We forgot Friendly fire. and American forces are also prone to miscalculations"Yes but those numbers (Blue on Blue Casualties we called them in my day) are relatively small.
Also where there is negligence we take appropriate action.
I.E. AirForce Pilot and Weaps Officer who Bombed and Killed some Canadian Troops in Afghanistan. Those lads are being Court Martialed and will have to pay the price for their Negligence if they are found Guilty, As it should be. "Why don't you actually buy a copy of all 3 of his albums and his sountrack and actually listein to them, with an open mind and ear instead of having the media lead you around like a dog."Why would I want to send him any of My money. Clips and transcripts are available on the Web. Do a google search.
You who's opinion is apparently a construct of your friends and teachers should be very careful about telling other people to form their own opinion and not be led around like a dog!Back at ya.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 154

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PoltergeistMember since Aug-8-02 · 514 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-03 AT 09:40 PM (EDT)

Oh Santa, please give me one post from Chuck where he doesn't fill half of it with petty insult.....ah screw it, it ain't going to happen. Did he/she help you with this post? Since the grammar/spelling is so much improved from your original posts. At least in the beginning.Im thinking you never went to college, because if you did, you would've learn how to argue without pathetic attempt at insults. I'm not even going to answear your inane question with a responseBTW to put the 3.5 GPA in perspective, If you are in college now Where and Whats your major and what year are you in? If still in High School what track are you on and what grade are you in?
A 3.5 in Shop is a little different than a 3.5 in Engineering.I'm a freshman in college, and guess what it went up to a 3.6 GPA now, I scored a 100 on a college math course, and I'm talking College Algebra. I actually have two majors going, teaching an Air Traffic Controller. I've also been training with ATC simulators thats been approved by the Federal Aviation Adminstration (FAA). So far my instructors say that I am the best in the class. think that is called "Herd Mentality".
Who cares what your "frineds" think?
The important thing would be what you think and how you formed that opinion! Preferably with out validating it with "Your frineds".Apparently you don't give a damn what I think because basically you think Im some retarded 13 year old. so I find this statement laughable and in-accurate, shall I also saw "two-faced"? Because one time you attack me for thinking for myself, and the next you tell me that I should think for myself. hmm intresting. And this is bad for us how? Living in NC do you drive a pickup or SUV like most people down there do? (AAA Figures not my opinion alone)
If so, then would you rather pay $1.50 a gallon or $5.00 a gallon?
However, it still won't be free. The President has made it a goal of any Regime Change to use the profits from any Iraqi oil to "rebuild" Iraq, Post Saddam. This means Iraqi oil will be sold Free-Market so there will be a profit.
BTW, Did you know that under a UN Humanitarian resolution Iraq is allowed to sell 2 million Barrels of Oil a day? Originally the number was 500K Barrels and the proceeds were to be used for Humanitarian (Food and Medicine) relief for the Iraqi people. This was subsequently raised to the 2M Barrel number with the Concurrence of the Clinton Administration. And all this was supposed to be monitored by the UN Inspection teams. When Saddam kicked the Inspection Teams out in the mid 90s there was no longer a way to verify where the funds were going or how much oil was actually produced and sold. So given this state of affairs the US proposed that the permission to sell the oil be rescinded until such time as the inspectors were allowed back in. This proposal was vetoed in the Security Council by France!
So now Saddam has the proceeds of at least 2M barrels of Oil a day to use as he sees fit with no international oversight. You are aware that he has built at least a dozen palaces (Which may actually be covers for Military or Weapons facilities - Which is why the UN Inspection Teams want to get into them so badly) while Iraqi children starve and he blames this on a non-existent blockade.
BTW, Do you want to guess who buys 70% of that oil and at below fair market prices? France! Makes ya kind of wonder about their true reasons for opposing the US doesn't it?I drive a 1986 Mustang LX with a 2.3 engine in it. I may put a Turbo in it for power. I do want lower gas price but I think theres better way of getting it than putting our Men and Gals on the front line. Also I don't see the Bush adminstration doing anything for our poor, I mean our ecomony still sucks, people are still out in the streets, so why are we bitching and worried about the children of Iraq when we don't even do it at home?? Also France always sucked at War, I mean they've been taken over by the Nazi Army in 17 days and after that they helped the Nazi. So I really don't care about the French. I take back what I said about your spelling. Who are the "Repbulicans"?The Republican Party, you know the party that our El Stupido president is a part of? I just revised my estimate of your age back down to about 13.
Colin Powell for one has proven his value and personal courage to this country repeatedly for over 30 years. What have you done? IMHO you are not fit to shine General (ret) Powell's shoes!Its actually 19. HA I wouldn't even want to shine his shoes, hes stupid and moronic for taking orders from a stupid and moronic President. But hey he gotta take order from his boss, so I understand that. What have I done, excuse me, what have I Done??? Oh boy you have no idea what ##### I've been through. The ##### I've been through you wouldn't even have to guts to go on with life after the horrbile events of my personal life, you would've shot your brains out after the first year of my Middle School Life. I also doubt you ever served in the Army or any of our Militatry Branch. I come from 5-6 Generation of Men whos served in the Army, my dad was in Korea. He too think this whole war with Iraq is stupid and pointless. and So does my grandfather who protected our country from the Nazi Power in War World II. My dad is where I get my opinion from, and I sure as Hell trust his words alot more than I trust yours Chuck. OK let's get the History Correct since you must have slept through some of it or the NEA decided it was Politically Incorrect to point out Faults in JFK's Camelot...I actually recieved an A+ in this course, and I was taught by an Vietnam Veteran, Coach Cole. He was the one who gave the class this information, and once again I would rather trust the mouth of someone whos been in the Militatry then someone who reads the newspaper and think its telling the truth. Newspaper has been known to lie. You who's opinion is apparently a construct of your friends and teachers should be very careful about telling other people to form their own opinion and not be led around like a dog!Apparently you don't see his lyrics for what they really are. Like in his album the Marshall Mathers LP, the song, "The Way I am"He talks about the Colobine Shooting and how the media blame it on Marlyin Manson. Thats just stupid beyond all reason. Marylin Manson has nothing to do with it at all!!!! Thats what Eminem does best, he points out stupid things like that and he shove it in your face. Try re-reading those lyrics again.
Military Movements – image 156 Military Movements – image 157 Military Movements – image 158 Military Movements – image 159 Military Movements – image 160 Military Movements – image 161 Military Movements – image 162 Military Movements – image 163


I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-03 AT 00:00 AM (EDT)

>Oh Santa, please give me one post from Chuck where he
>doesn't fill half of it with petty insult.....ah screw it,
>it ain't going to happen.
>Not until you learn how to present your arguments coherently!
And how to use a spelling checker. Your grammer is atrocious also.>Im thinking you never went to college, because if you did,
>you would've learn how to argue without pathetic attempt at
>insults. I'm not even going to answear your inane question
>with a response
>Which of course you did anyway!
BTW, Electrical Engineering Technology University of Pa.>I'm a freshman in college, and guess what it went up to a
>3.6 GPA now, I scored a 100 on a college math course, and
>I'm talking College Algebra. I actually have two majors
>going, teaching an Air Traffic Controller. Do you mean "Teaching and Air Traffic Control?"?>I've also been
>training with ATC simulators thats been approved by the
>Federal Aviation Adminstration (FAA). So far my instructors
>say that I am the best in the class. FWIW, When I was your age (19)we (the US Military) trained High School Drop outs in Air Traffic control... >Apparently you don't give a damn what I think because
>basically you think Im some retarded 13 year old. If the Shoe Fits? >I drive a 1986 Mustang LX with a 2.3 engine in it. I may
>put a Turbo in it for power. I do want lower gas price but
>I think theres better way of getting it than putting our Men
>and Gals on the front line. And why do you think that is what is going on? Once again our gas prices are not controlled by Iraq but by Opec!
Of much greater impact to our gas prices is the unrest in Venezuela since we do buy significant quanitities of oil from them.>Also I don't see the Bush
>adminstration doing anything for our poor, What do you want him to do? Every single Clintonian policy vs a vis the Poor is still in effect and infact most of them have had their funding increased.>I mean our ecomony still sucks, people are still out in the >streets, so why are we bitching and worried about the children of >Iraq >when we don't even do it at home?? Yep and Al Bore admited on nightline before Christmas that the Clinton Administration knew the economy was in serious trouble a year before Bush was sworn in. A better question would be why didn't THEY fix it while it was a small problem???
Until the Senate was Sworn in the Democratic Majority in the Senate along with not passing a single judicial nomination other than Clinton Holdovers which Bush allowed to stand as a courtesy refused to enact a single economic stimulus package. When 3 or so were sent to them. Don't believe me? Examine the congressional record. Simple fact using your logic the Liberals deliberately tanked the economy for political gain.>Also France always >sucked at War, I mean they've been taken over
> by the Nazi Army in 17 days and after that they helped the Nazi. >So I really don't care about the French.
>So why quote the Europeans to me when attacking your own president?
>The Republican Party, you know the party that our El Stupido
>president is a part of? I just revised my estimate of your age back down to about
13. Again....
>Colin Powell for one has proven his value and personal
>courage to this country repeatedly for over 30 years. What
>have you done? IMHO you are not fit to shine General (ret)
>Powell's shoes!
>
>Its actually 19. HA I wouldn't even want to shine his
>shoes, hes stupid and moronic for taking orders from a
>stupid and moronic President. But hey he gotta take order
>from his boss, so I understand that. What have I done,
>excuse me, what have I Done??? Oh boy you have no idea what
>##### I've been through. The ##### I've been through you
>wouldn't even have to guts to go on with life after the
>horrbile events of my personal life, you would've shot your
>brains out after the first year of my Middle School Life. I
>also doubt you ever served in the Army or any of our
>Militatry Branch. I come from 5-6 Generation of Men whos
>served in the Army, my dad was in Korea. He too think this
>whole war with Iraq is stupid and pointless. and So does my
>grandfather who protected our country from the Nazi Power in
>War World II. My dad is where I get my opinion from, and I
>sure as Hell trust his words alot more than I trust yours
>Chuck.
>You know I actually put off answering this for 2 hours in order to get my emotions back under control.....How dare you Question General Powell's service to the country or for that matter mine!
His is a matter of Public record.... For Mysely I am a Vietnam Veteran.....
I served 26 years in the Navy most of it in the Submarine Service.
Of that 26 Years the first 12 were Enlisted where I rose to the rank of Senior Chief Petty Officer (Thats 1st sergeant to you, Punk!)
I then served 8 years as a Warrant and Chief Warrant Officer after which I was Commisioned an Officer and I subsequently retired as a Leutenant (That would be a Captain in the Army)....
My Son served in the 82nd Airborne as a Sergeant.....
I've shot better men than you...I have been wasting my time trying to convince you of the fundamental fallacy of your arguments.In My Considered Opinion you are nothing but a Loud Mouthed Looser who doesn't know when to shut up! I've met your kind hanging around bars off base before... Hoodlums Drunk and full of testosterone with their Alligator Mouthes writing Checks their Hummingbird a$$es can't cash! Trying to pick fights with GIs to prove to themselves they have a Johnson, When quite obviously they don't! Mostly they're nothing but punks!
I've got to believe if the men in your family were really multi generation US Army and they heard you spew that krap your ass would get a spanking..... I think your full of $hit!Rough life in Middle School eh? What did they do keep you in during recess?I've got no more time to waste on trash like you...
As far as I'm concerned you don't exist!*****PLONK************Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 164

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Long Island RailsMember since Sep-25-02 · 59 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Hello Chuck, I would like to thank you and all of the Veterans of Vietnam. Your military career sounds amazing. I have served in the US Navy for 6 years from 84-90 and was honorable discharged as an E5. Unfortunately, I was on what you bubble heads call a target (flat top) and I know how tough it was to achieve what you did, as far as going through the ranks. You should be proud and to have someone try to question your career and your morals as well as Colin Powell’s thru a train forum gets me sick!

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CSXALineCharter Member · 871 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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I understand you dont want your uncle to come back in a coffin - pray for him - my family felt that way about me in 91 and about my grandfather in 1943 (he was a chemical soldier too - may he RIP - Passed in 1999)But he is a soldier - he knows his job and is well trained - but we have to support them = just support your uncle - so he knows someone isJason Webb
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rpicardi1Charter Member · 652 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Interesting; How U. S. citizens are being treated like common criminals when they choose to travel by air, how they are searched when coming back into the U. S. from Canada, and how trucks are likewise searched that regularly make the Canadian crossing into Michigan with the goods of commerence.Yet;Hundreds of truckloads of trash cross into Michigan daily from Canada - no searches of their loads required. Illegals pour across unguarded stretches of the border from Mexico and if caught are rarely sent back.A few months ago, an old beat up freighter nagivated the shallow channel into the bay at Miami, beached itself, and unloaded hundreds of Hatian Nationals before the authorities knew it was there. Last week, a Cubian gunboat docked in Southern Florida, undetected, until its occupants turned themselves in at a local police station.What further proof do you need that common sense died on 9-11 as the breaucrats in the goverment try to hide the security loopholes still present and justify hanging on to their jobs.SRV Ron

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sd70mac666Charter Member · 283 posts

RE: Military Movements.

yes would be wise, I don't want to know about that stuff.
The Ragged they come and the ragged they kill
Down in the Cool air I can see
Superbeast; Rob ZombieI dragged your big-assed dirty robbed car out of that ditch

I Took Your Name: R.E.M.

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CGW409Charter Member · 460 posts

RE: Military Movements.

SSW
Actualy if things follow the course of the Gulf War gas prices should start to drop shortly after the butt whoopin begins, markets in general and the oil markets in particular hate the uncertanty

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West_Coast_RailroaderCharter Member · 128 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Theres another factor in the price of crude that is the strike in Venezuala.Lets look at another thing here is the fact the Western world is hated so much especially the US is because we have a system where people can make lots of money.
The Muslim world sees the Western world as a threat to their religion and way of life.If Saddam has WoMD then they are more likely undergroud in bunkers that cannot be spotted by spy plane and satelites.
Heres where if it exists, a satelite thats has ground penetrating radar that could find these weapons.Why are there Muslims living in the Western world countries? Is it because they know something about their homelands that we don't know about?Could it be they see that they can still practice their religion and still contribute to the world economy?Now to what started this....I think RR's are concerned about terrorists scouring mthe internet for train information especially whats in the consist.
A train carrying more than one hazardous material crossing a bridge, then those materials mix and create a poisionous cloud and depending on the wind direction carry that cloud to a large population.
It may not be long before the RR's remove any timetables from their websites if they have them.
Although a terrorist or terrorist group would not need a timetable,all they would need to do is scout a target and sit and watch and see what comes along the line and take notes, so that would make the posting of timetables a moot point.I agree with Brian we must police ourselves or have someone does it for us.We shouldn't divert from what this site is about.
Military issues are senitive one and we should respect that.

Railfanning:The best excuse to get outdoors.
Train-simming:The best way to pass the time indoors.

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kevarcCharter Member · 3301 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I think RR's are using this as an excuse to muzzle people.Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!Military Movements – image 168

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kevarcCharter Member · 3301 posts

RE: Military Movements.

Home Land Security - sounds like the Gestapo, NKVD, KGB, Stasi to me. Do they issue them black leather trench coats? As we watch our civil rights get trampled on by a government that appears to be running loose. It seem that every day something new is being regulated or frowned upon by the government. Soon your neighbors will be informants. Do we next rewrite the constititution to remove the bill of rights? Unless the courts get of their ass, we will need to read about the Gulag's and big brother to see how we will need to live. As a life long Republican, it saddens me to see what has become of our government. I always thought we stood for less regulations and smaller government. Guess I was wrong. Nite Komerades!Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!Military Movements – image 169

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chuckscCharter Member · 2635 posts

RE: Military Movements.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-03 AT 03:19 AM (EDT)

And those are very valid concerns Kev....
Heres hoping that with Tom Ridge running Homeland Security (Does sound a little like Pravda-Truth doesn't it) there might be a check and balance on John Ashcroft....
I still believe deep down inside that the AG is not really trying to turn this into a police state but is sincerely trying to protect us from the Bad Guys...
Hope I'm right but If I'm not I can resume believing in Tinkerbell!BTW, I'm a life long Republican also! Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive WorksMilitary Movements – image 170

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MacsterCharter Member · 1246 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Military Movements – image 171

G'Morning...woooowwwwwww i didn't know this was gonna turn like this...... i hope i didn't offend anybody by this........... that was not the intent of it at all...

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WaMilitary Movements – image 172

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LARKIECharter Member · 303 posts

RE: Military Movements.

I congratulate you on your forbearance Macster,"big trees from little acorns" etc.I'm glad you've let the dicussion proceed to its natural conclusion(someday?).It's been pretty interesting having a Transatlantic discussion,and even though things may look,to casual observers,as if I and my fellow protagonist Chuck,are enemies of sorts,nothing could be further from the truth.Just a personal view as usual.Healthy political debate is the lifeblood of democracy.We are,I believe,in relative agreement over Iraq,regarding its previous flouting of UN resolutions,but where we differ is is the best,and most logical,path to achieve that common goal,and how the world views that effort.I don't think you've got any grounds to be offended,indeed on rereading through the many posts,they provide excellent,entertaining,and sometimes amusing reading.
I look forward to many Iraqis,once freed from Saddam's yoke,to be able to join this MSTS forum.I'm sure they'll be most welcomed.

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PoltergeistMember since Aug-8-02 · 514 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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I really don't see Chuck as an enemy either, just someone with a diffrent political view from mine. Beside from the insults that we throw at each other it was pretty intresting to see what he had to say. Althought I seem to pissed him off at the end, and yes I do have regrets about that. I'm now in favor of shutting this topic down, its run it course. Good day and God Bless.
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I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem

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StumblCharter Member · 700 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-03 AT 11:03 AM (EDT)

I tend to doubt , poltergeist , that Chuck has ANY strong feelings about you.of course , I cannot speak for him , but IMO , you don't really stir that much emotion at all.edit: no reason at ALL to shut the topic down.

Military Movements – image 182
"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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PoltergeistMember since Aug-8-02 · 514 posts

RE: Military Movements.

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Military Movements – image 183

I have no intention of stirring emotion, I just like to debate from time to time.
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I know I've made a couple of miskate, but I'm only human, at least I'm man enough to face them today! ~Eminem

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Restored from the Train-Sim.Com archive, captured February 25, 2003. About this archive.