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I may get flamed for this but so be it. People got on Lawrence Kelley's case about not private messaging people about the banner sizes in signatures. Well, frankly some of those who were complaining are ones who don't bother emailing people who make things when they have problems with things, instead they post in forums or in inappropriate forums. It's the pot calling the kettle black type of thing. I read the post with the resizing of Darkfyre's image, and he had no problem with it, nor did I. Rules are here for a reason, we didn't realize that it wasn't the correct size in one dimension. Fine, Lawrence was nice enough to resize it for him and he played about with another image he was thinking of using. I don't know which he's using.We all wanted the rules enforced. Lawrence was doing that, and by doing it, what happened? Everyone b****ed and complained. Forum Moderators have a thankless job for 99% of the time and walk a fine line between enforcing the rules and trying to to antagonize the community by doing so.To each of them, my deepest sympathies on a thankless task you each have. To Lawrence, I'm sorry to see you go as a moderator, only because you were making sense here, otherwise, I'm glad. You don't need that aggrevation.To Nels, I apologize in advance if this ticks people off. It isn't intended to do so, but probably will. Also, thank you for continuing to host the forum and file library. Both are greatly appreciated by the community and by myself, when the nastiness doesn't aggevate my condition.To those who bring things to the board, think first. Is it a problem with something that someone has uploaded? Check the readme file, they're email is generally included. Then check the boards, use the search feature to search all the threads about the problem, could be a similar .eng file that has the answer and someone already posted the fix for it. And think how you word things. If it helps imagine yourself in a room with all the others in the forum and you're speaking to the person that created what you're having a problem with. In all likelihood you would phrase what you are saying differently. You'd be more polite, more civil.
I'm going back to my little corner. DR

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RE: Problems, bnsfrr, Dec-11-02, 07:18 PM, (1) RE: Problems, SHEPLEY1935, Dec-11-02, 07:44 PM, (2) RE: Problems, calr, Dec-12-02, 06:40 PM, (3) RE: Problems, Motley24Crue2, Dec-12-02, 08:56 PM, (4) RE: Problems, mailer_daemon, Dec-13-02, 05:18 AM, (6) RE: Problems, Transcon, Dec-15-02, 02:40 AM, (25) RE: Problems, patm41, Dec-13-02, 05:05 AM, (5) RE: Problems, SHEPLEY1935, Dec-13-02, 08:54 AM, (7) RE: Problems, SHEPLEY1935, Dec-14-02, 04:22 PM, (23) RE: Problems, dvdhoven, Dec-15-02, 02:37 AM, (24) RE: Problems, chucksc, Dec-15-02, 09:02 AM, (26) RE: Problems, calr, Dec-16-02, 11:18 PM, (27) RE: Problems, kevarc, Dec-13-02, 09:01 AM, (8) RE: Problems, Poltergeist, Dec-13-02, 09:23 AM, (9) RE: Problems, plainsman, Dec-13-02, 11:15 AM, (10) RE: Problems, calr, Dec-13-02, 11:58 AM, (11) RE: Problems, chucksc, Dec-13-02, 12:42 PM, (12) RE: Problems, SHEPLEY1935, Dec-13-02, 12:53 PM, (13) RE: Problems, SHEPLEY1935, Dec-13-02, 01:01 PM, (14) RE: Problems, Motley24Crue2, Dec-14-02, 01:11 AM, (15) RE: Problems, ENTrainman, Dec-14-02, 02:45 AM, (16) RE: Problems, ENTrainman, Dec-14-02, 03:09 AM, (17) RE: Problems, chucksc, Dec-14-02, 09:24 AM, (18) RE: Problems, ssw_96, Dec-14-02, 11:29 AM, (19) RE: Problems, ENTrainman, Dec-14-02, 01:43 PM, (20) RE: Problems, plainsman, Dec-14-02, 01:59 PM, (21) RE: Problems, ENTrainman, Dec-14-02, 02:04 PM, (22)

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Well said, MSTS and these forums are all about enjoying trains and having fun doing it, not seeing who can flame the best. Thank you to those who work hard to keep the forums as they should be and those who post with maturity. -MIKE-Model Railroader, Railfan, and MSTS user
Youth Member La Mesa Model Railroad Club, San Deigo CA
"Good Times"

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Well said...damn well said!

Don Shepley-Chicago

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I requested Lawrence's removal as moderator because for the past couple of weeks, he seemed to be on some kind of power trip. Yes, he was trying to enforce the rules but his approach was that of a power-hungry bully. I agree that a moderator has a thankless job. However, a moderator needs to be tactful in the execution of his/her duties. He needs to balance goals with maintaining a good rapport with forum members. In my view, Lawrence was not doing that. I received a private email yesterday from someone who shall remain nameless that indicated that this is not the first time Lawrence lost control. I am not familiar with the earlier incident(s) so I can't speak to that. I would like to see Lawrence remain a member of the forums. He has contributed much in the way of technical knowlege. If he were able to control himself, I might even consider having him back as a moderator after a cooling off period.Regarding using private messages to convey problems, I assume this referred to my post a few days ago regarding problems I found with the two trainsets you uploaded. My intention was not to embarrass you. You don't check in too often lately and I was looking for an answer. I posted the problem publicly in hopes someone else had a quick fix. That turned out to be the case. The fixes for the problems were posted and all is well. I love that funball express! My wife saw it on my screen and asked "what the h*** are those balls?" She likes them, too.DR, when I post a question on the forums, it is NEVER to embarrass anyone. I post in order to find an answer. If I know the person most likely to have an answer, I will address the post to that person but I invite anyone with an answer to respond. This is not meant as criticism but to expedite a solution.If I have upset you or anyone else, I apologize. I sometimes shoot from the hip. I try to avoid the squabbles and bickering that take place here but sometimes I can't leave it alone. When I see something taking place that the moderators are not handling, I tend to jump in and try to intervene. You know what? It seldom works!Have a good day and Happy Holidays. Thanks for letting me chew on your ears (eyes) for a few minutes.
Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
cal.rasmussen@verizon.netColumbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 track completed. Taking a TSM break!)

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>I requested Lawrence's removal as moderator because for the
>past couple of weeks, he seemed to be on some kind of power
>trip. Yes, he was trying to enforce the rules but his
>approach was that of a power-hungry bully. I Agree with you 100% i liked him as a Regular member... but not as a Mod he really seemed like he was trying to Run the show by him self and in the Process got a lot of People P***** off!!! im one of those PeopleBob
Philadelphia, Pa

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-02 AT 05:55 AM (EST)

I'm one of the victims too. I wished he would just PM me kindly and I would happily comply, without any complaints. But he chose to tell me straight in the face, and worse in a popular thread with 70++ replies. I feel like being picked on and embarrased just like that, but I'm glad everything is over.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/rogorox/

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>I'm one of the victims too. I wished he would just PM me
>kindly and I would happily comply, without any complaints.
>But he chose to tell me straight in the face, and worse in a
>popular thread with 70++ replies.
>
>I feel like being picked on and embarrased just like that,
>but I'm glad everything is over. I was also ticked off at his posts... I would've been more than happy to comply with him had he just simply PMed me. Besides, isn't that what moderators are supposed to do?
------------------------------------------------------------I'll never let go of the railroad that inspired me to be involved with trains, the Union Pacific!John Ekhoff
14 yr. old Train Sim Reskinner from Abilene, Texas.
A member of the Yonder Locomotive Works.
TXCRR: Trackwork 96% Complete
Oh, BTW MSTS Rules, 'Nuff Said.

AOL IM - FlightSimPilot02
E-mail - FlightSimPilot02@aol.com

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Cal, in the earlier days of this forum this guy showed his attutiude
quite often. I for one am glad he is gone!Patm41

Maglev Route Designer
Casino Express
Waterfront Route

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If this is your version of a public "Mea Culpa" it is a bit lacking IMHO! As I read your message it sounds more like a PR Spin!

Don Shepley-Chicago

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-02 AT 04:29 PM (EST)

Cal,
I received the following E-Mail from Lawrence Kellie! He made a request of me and I was not sure if I could honor the request. As you initiated much of the commentary of this thread I decided, after almost 24 hours of consideration, that you are the rightful recipiant!I take NO position, Pro or Con, about the contents of the E-Mail note other than to say that I believe ALL SIDES OF A STORY should be heard and/or read! I have attached Mr. Kellie's unabridged E-Mail except for his New E-Mail address! The one shown NO longer works.

Don Shepley-Chicago

Attachments
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3dfba04c34a15ad2.txt

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Hi,Thanks Don, for posting Lawrence's email.
It clears something and it confirms my opinion.Dick van den Hoven

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>Hi,
>
>Thanks Don, for posting Lawrence's email.
>It clears something and it confirms my opinion.
>
>Dick van den Hoven
> So I guess he is right and the rest of us wrong?
Believe what you want to...Come on that thing is so full of factual inaccuracies and half truths that it could have been written by Bill Clinton....
1st class job of spin-mastering....
Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

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LK's message implies that he thinks he knows who the email I received came from. To set the record straight, it was NOT Rich Garber. Rich had nothing to do with this in any way. I still choose not to reveal the author of the email. I will say that it was from someone who I consider to be a respected member of the forums.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
cal.rasmussen@verizon.netColumbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 track completed. Taking a TSM break!)

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You know DR - it might be time for you to get off of your holier than thou soapbox. That is the attitude you seem to take here and in email you send. Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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Here how I see the moderators. They are the police on this fourm, they keep (or try to keep) order and peace on the fourm. You know they are mods, because they have badges, like policemen do. Police person (which is the potically correct verison), Don't go around screaming at everyone who does something little. The Mods should be the same way. BUT, Lawrence was screaming and shouting and getting an attitude. Thats how I see it.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-02 AT 11:19 AM (EST)

My thought on this issue,
1 This forum is essentially about trains and railroading. The job of the moderator is of course to establish and enforce the rules. But that may need a little skill in performing that task. A recalcitrant troll may require a stern headon reprimand or oust. A genuinely sincere member who inadvertantly fails to meet a rule, should be treated a little more judiciously, and given the opportunity to comply. It is not necessary to make the rule enforcement task become the overriding theme of the forum. I know of numerous threads which were informative and thoroughly helpful and on point, which got "derailed" by a overreacting remark about the participants banner. This was becoming very distracting to the users. Technical railroad discussions broke off into defensive arguements over trivial pixel counts. The moderators task should not infinge on the legitemate purposes of the discussions.
2 I don't know anthing about the personality of the person involved, and I didn't have a banner to start with so there are no compliance issues. In my opinion this was not so much about personalities, as about the flow of information in the forum. A few might get ruffled up about an ocasional misstep by a person they don't find likeable, but most of us can tolerate a lot of different personality styles as long as the individual does not get in the way of communicating effectively.
3 I hope this does not polarize into a "I liked him", "I dispised him" personal discussion. I think Lawrence was, and I sincerely hope continues to be a very respected and authoritative participant in the forums. What ever the outcome of the dispute over moderation, we should not discourage a worhwhile participant from continuing as an important part of the community. We need to retain the community spirit, not become polar clans. Lets get back to trains and railroads, not rehash distractions.
Bob Boudoin

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Well said! My post was primarily directed to DarkestRose. Peggy is a very sensitive individual and it was not my intention to upset her.There are a lot of young members in the forums who could learn a great deal from us "old fogies" if they would stop fighting amongst themselves and take the time to read and listen.Regarding Lawrence Kelly, I can't really add anything to what I said earlier and what you said. I think it is time to let the topic rest and move on with crashing (oops, I mean driving) trains.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
cal.rasmussen@verizon.netColumbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 track completed. Taking a TSM break!)

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-02 AT 12:42 PM (EST)

Thank You Cal.....As some one once said "The Fat Lady has sung"!This is now over and lets all move on....Those of you who think LK "got shafted" can now Commiserate with him in chat rooms and by e-mail!Those of us who don't can now shutup about it, get on with our lives and let it die....Lets go back to Trains if you please...Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-02 AT 12:56 PM (EST)

Well said Chuck...Damn well said!Now to important things such as when is NALW going to surprise us with a Northern or 2-10-4? Happy Holidays to You and the Back Show Gang!

Don Shepley-Chicago

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Bob,
Seems to me that you have very effectively applied the brakes to this run away thread with your great commentary...Thank You! As Chuck says...it is over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don Shepley-Chicago

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Well said plainsman Bob
Philadelphia, Pa

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-02 AT 02:46 AM (EST)

umm.. DarkestRose has a very valid point and all you do is shut her out... what? its not a problem untill it turns on you i guess. They got rid of the moderator that actually had the guts to deal with the messy threads... if anything this needs more moderators... I am not saying the moderators are doing a bad job or anything, its the people that frequent the fourms that cause the problems. As DarkestRose posted above, Use common sense... and maybe this might become a half decent forum. There are a few people here that need to be banned for a while thats for sure, that would most likely solve the problem then and there.It is no wonder this forum loses so many people... when georgi left, he was telling the truth about the place just so you know... but you had to go start threads about it... just illistrating his point further... and last but not least.... your beyond freindly moderator of the #MSTS chat..... who thinks it is wrong to talk about the innerworkings of simulators... big surprise there are only 5 people in there.
Before another person calls me a newbie on the fourm (eh CPR Mallice :p)I have been here may 2001 (i cant remember the exact date) and this fourm was an all around nice place for a while.. but by around october it was just sickening... i just stepped back and watched this place become what it was... maybe there is time for a change before MSTS 2...

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you ever notice the relation between the ones complaining about him and the ones involved in flame threads... just somthing to think about

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>you ever notice the relation between the ones complaining
>about him and the ones involved in flame threads... just
>somthing to think about Jens-Chris, Calr... You've got to be kidding!
Glad to see you are back LK! FWIW, No body was complaining about Moderators with guts...
Just moderators with no common sense and rude to boot....Also in my case the guy was dead wrong on a technical point, lost an appeal to Nels (on a technical point)(remember Nels? he literally owns this place) and still continued to push the issue in an open forum... What part of he was not moderator material do you not understand??????Oh I forgot you're just trolling....The issue is closed let it be.....Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

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I guess everyone cant handle a lil authority.

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-02 AT 01:46 PM (EST)

uhh...no you got the wrong person... wrong on one technical point eh? that man should be banned for life!! :rolleyes:i still stand by all of my other points made in the previous post.you guys just wont admit there is a serious problem here. -Chris Caswell

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-02 AT 02:00 PM (EST)

Just give it up troll and let the rest of us who want to talk about trains get on with our lives, please. Bye!!

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ROFL, your problem, fine

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