Student Shot by Security Guard

LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 01:56 AM (EST)

This was in Tulsa, Oklahoma; apparently a guard employed by Pinkerton Security fired at a student after the student reached into his pocket, which was after the student snubbed the guard, who had ordered him off the school property, and finally did so after the guard had pulled his gun...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Southwest/10/31/tulsa.shooting/index.htmlTurned out, the kid wasn't armed, just had a cell phone in his pocket...
WTH is this world coming to??!!

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RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, highball5, Nov-01-02, 02:19 AM, (1) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, darkfyre, Nov-01-02, 02:54 AM, (2) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, KingJPW, Nov-01-02, 06:59 AM, (3) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Poltergeist, Nov-01-02, 12:55 PM, (4) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, kevarc, Nov-01-02, 02:19 PM, (5) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, andrewpickell, Nov-01-02, 03:08 PM, (6) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Brad 110, Nov-01-02, 04:42 PM, (7) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, kevarc, Nov-01-02, 04:47 PM, (8) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, I_totally_love_trains, Nov-01-02, 05:06 PM, (9) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Brad 110, Nov-01-02, 08:41 PM, (12) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Hack, Nov-02-02, 03:27 AM, (17) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Brad 110, Nov-01-02, 08:35 PM, (11) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, kevarc, Nov-01-02, 10:11 PM, (14) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Brad 110, Nov-03-02, 03:52 AM, (19) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Mrscotti, Nov-01-02, 05:41 PM, (10) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Claude350, Nov-01-02, 09:52 PM, (13) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Adam3291, Nov-01-02, 10:59 PM, (15) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, sniper297, Nov-01-02, 11:58 PM, (16) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Brad 110, Nov-03-02, 04:29 AM, (21) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Brad 110, Nov-03-02, 04:23 AM, (20) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, KingJPW, Nov-02-02, 09:04 AM, (18) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, Brad 110, Nov-03-02, 04:33 AM, (22) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, casper, Nov-03-02, 10:57 AM, (23) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, LARKIE, Nov-03-02, 01:41 PM, (24) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, darkfyre, Nov-03-02, 02:29 PM, (25) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, LARKIE, Nov-03-02, 04:14 PM, (26) RE: Student Shot by Security Guard, wpfan, Nov-04-02, 04:16 AM, (27)

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Any time an _armed_ law enforcement officer, police or security, detains someone
and tells them 'hands up', and then that person still decides to reach into their
coat or pocket, in my opinion it's a suicide attempt. And in this case, the attempt
was successful.

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 02:57 AM (EST)

The kid was walking away, and the guard shot him regardless, just because he had been threatened, and 'assumed' he was going to pull a gun. I didn't see anything about the guard shouting 'hands up'. And as a witness said, the guard was firing into a crowd. Who's at fault?The kid? For mouthing off and issuing threats?Or the guard, for drawing a gun to enforce his order telling the student to get off the school grounds, then shooting when the kid didn't have a visible weapon, and into a crowd?
I'm sure it was a judgment call; but why didn't he go for pepper spray or something?

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I think the security guard will need to look for a new job soon. I don't think you can shot someone for not getting off school property...

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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I blame the security guard, he clearly overeaccted, Im mean comon what are the odds that a person can hide a handgun inside thier pockets and people not notice? I think the Security Guard best bet is welfare because after he gets fired hes going to have a hard time finding a new job, and he may be getting jail time for murder.

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While this is a terrible tragedy, I really cannot fault the guard. With all the nuts going crazy and shooting up schools and what not anymore, who is to know what the kid had in his pocket. Do you wait for the gun to come out of his pocket? By then it could be to late and how many dead kids could of resulted from something like that. Think about it.Kevin Arceneaux
gdapia

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I have to agree with Kevin. With the way things are going these days, if I was a security guard at a school in the US, I'd be a little edgy if some kid was issuing threats and then reached into his pocket. Like Kevin said, think about it.- Andrew

http://groups.msn.com/BCRSquamishSub

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>Do you wait for the gun to come out of his pocket? Yes!!>By then it could be to late . . .To late for what? If the guard is loaded and locked, and can't wait to see the gun before he fires because he doesn't think he can take the student out after the student shows the gun, the guard is in the wrong line of work. The net result, in this case is that the guard shot an unarmmed citizen. If such is to be condoned (much less supported) then maybe we ought to declare ourselves a police state and have our despotism unalloyed with any "individual freedom" or "rights of citizens" hypocracy.Brad "welcome to the New American Gestapo" Meyer

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So the kid has a MAC 10, and since it was in his hand before he dies he squeezes the trigger, how many dead then? You last paragraph is pure 100% BS.Kevin Arceneaux
gdapia

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What does snubbed the guard mean?I'm sure they'll be a huge lawsuit over this mess, I thought security or any armed forces aren't supposed to shoot at anyone unless they fire first. Please someone tell me if I'm correct.>WTH is this world coming to??!! I agree!Adam-------------------------------Operation Lifesaver Organization -- http://www.oli.org/
Striving to save lives at railroad crossings

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You are _way_ incorrect. Check the "rules of engagement" at your local and state police. Out here (Seattle area) they are allowed to fire if they _think_ the individual is holding or reaching for something that _looks_ like a gun. We had someone a few years back get shot by the police for holding a TV remote. LA had someone shot for holding a fake gun at a costume party a while back. Brad Meyer

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>LA had someone shot for holding a fake gun at a costume party a while back.After he pointed the fake gun at the officer shining his flashlight through the bedroom window. From 30 or so feet, do you think the offercer looked for the words "Made in Taiwan?"Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series Super Packs

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>So the kid has a MAC 10 . . .In his pocket??!?> . . . and since it was in his hand before
>he dies he squeezes the trigger . . .So he was also carrying it in his pocket with the saftey off?!!??!?> . . . how many dead then?None. You have been watching too many movies.Brad Meyer

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No I haven't watched to many movies. I have a lot of friends who are cops. If you think this is wrong go talk to them, they will tellyou how stupid ppl can be. How long does it take to take a safety off? 1/2 second? 1/4 second. the answer in none of them. When I hunt I take the safety off as I raise my shotgun, it is part of the draw. There is no thinking about taking the safety off, it is part of the natural process.Kevin Arceneaux
gdapia

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>No I haven't watched to many movies. I have a lot of
>friends who are cops. If you think this is wrong go talk to
>them, they will tellyou how stupid ppl can be.That's OK, I have lots of people for friends, and many of them tell me how stupid the police can be.>How long does it take to take a safety off? 1/2 second? 1/4
>second. the answer in none of them. When I hunt I take the
>safety off as I raise my shotgun, it is part of the draw.
>There is no thinking about taking the safety off, it is part
>of the natural process. And of course you are a school aged kid who just naturally started doing it that way from the start. No training, reps or anything else. Also, when you are hunting, how often are you hunting something in the act of shooting back?Brad "and we still haven't got to how the MAC fit in his pocket" Meyer

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All the experts are coming out now...........Hindsight is always 20/20

Scott W Leon-Guerrero

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 10:02 PM (EST)

Brad are you a police officer or ever worked as one.If not then please don't say how certified offers should respond.I've worked as a police offer and I'm still a certified officer.I can tell you that you don't wait to see if you're going to get shot before you decide to protect your life or that of a third party.If I tell you to get you hands where I can see them and to do it slowly that's what I mean.If I say to you to keep your hands where I can see them and you reach into your pockets you've just signed your death certificate.Now at the same time that I'm telling you to keep your hands in sight I will tell you that reaching into your pockets, or making any quick or threatening will be taken as an aggressive move and I will fire.You see Brad I have to kids that I love dearly and they need their father.I'm not going to second guess myself when it comes to a situation of that sort.Maybe the guard did overreact but we weren't there and witnesses don't always tell the truth.I've done countless searches of suspects and made plenty arrest.And yes I've had some that were stupid enough to still have the weapon on them when I made the arrest.I've also had to draw down on people,women and men alike and it's no fun knowing that you could have taken someone's life.But I feel like this and I'm sure I speak for alot of officers.You'll go before I will and that's the bottom line.BTW Brad in 1997 before before I started working for the NS I Lost a very close friend.He was shot in the face by a suspected murderer.The suspect was sitting in a car and from the reports of the other officer my friend went up to the suspect to talk with him and had asked for the suspects I.D..Instead of getting the I.D. he took a round to the face that killed him right there on the spot.So don't you ever come in here trying to be a sideline officer unless you've got your facts straight.Unless you've been there you don't have the slightess clue as to what real police work is like.This isn't NYPD Blue or CSI.

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 11:00 PM (EST)

I agree with Kev! You got to suspect the upexpected or you could end up dead or alive and possibly someone else being hurt. When I'm hunting (and yes we do hunt in NC hahaha) I take my saftey off on my guns when I raise them to shot. Natural reaction for a hunter. I don't see what the big deal is here. What if the kid pulled out a gun instead of a cell phone! Thinking about!Adam

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-02 AT 00:06 AM (EST)

Actually, if anyone is pointing a gun at you, regardless of whether it's a cop or a criminal, is it a good idea to make any kind of move that might startle them into jerking the trigger? Living in the inner city I've seen way too much of this kind of crap, punk thug teenagers think they can do whatever they want to anyone, because some "expert" living in lilywhite suburbia thinks "children" shouldn't be spanked, and if a teacher lays a hand on a student the teacher should be arrested for assault. Meantime he/she is expected to use "classroom management skills" to try to control a riot, and has very little time to do the actual job description, namely teaching. Then the pundits blame the teachers when gangbangers who don't have the slightest interest in learning anything can't pass standardized tests, and none of the other kids have learned anything either since they've been too busy concentrating on surviving in a tense, hostile environment with the constant threat of sudden violence. I went to Chicago Public Schools, and worked as a teacher's aide as an adult, people in polite society have no idea how mindlessly violent and uncontrollable these "Children of the Damned" can be. And trust me, the only thing they respect is physical force, talking accomplishes absolutely nothing.People make a big deal out of the fact that Catholic Schools spend less than half as much per student as the Public Schools, and get much better IOWA scores. That's because if the little bastards disrupt the class and attack the teacher and the other kids, THEY GET THROWN OUT so the kids who don't behave like that can learn something. Then after the "at risk youth" is expelled from the private school, the public school is stuck dealing with him, and can't be expelled until he actually shoots somebody. Guess what, folks, good children have a right to a quality education too, and that right is being violated by the attempts to "save" the "troubled teenagers". Sometimes with this cop bashing that goes on you wonder if we're trying to discourage anyone from taking the job, is a cop supposed to wait until a hole is punched in his/her sternum before responding? "Unarmed" teenagers frequently act like they have a gun anyway, as a cop approaches just to talk to the kid(s), he(they) will reach around the back of their waistband as if they're going for a gun, it's a macho thing. Latonya Haggerty died because she was stupid, Officer Serena Daniels was fired because our society has become stupid.Also bear in mind it was "unarmed" "children" who beat that adult to death in Milwaukee.

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>I agree with Kev! You got to suspect the upexpected or you
>could end up dead or alive and possibly someone else being
>hurt. Certainly one has to suspect, but if one starts acting solely on suspicion, innocet people start getting hurt or killed. Supposedly, your whole purpose in being out there in the first place is a belief that the innocent life is more important then your own. If not, you're in the wrong line of work.>When I'm hunting (and yes we do hunt in NC hahaha) I
>take my saftey off on my guns when I raise them to shot.
>Natural reaction for a hunter. Also for a schoolboy?>I don't see what the big
>deal is here. What if the kid pulled out a gun instead of a
>cell phone! Thinking about! What if that guards first shot, the one that missed, took out your son or daughter? Would you still be singing that same tune. "That's OK officer -- I know you didn't _mean_ to kill her. These things just happen in the course of life."Brad Meyer

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>Brad are you a police officer or ever worked as one.Only in a manner of speaking. I participated in a "police action" in Viet Nam with rules of engagement much more restrictive then the police anywhere in the US have to deal with today. I can just see a PBA or Police union dealing with the notion that they are not allowed to fire unless and until fired on. You (and several others) make me out to be anti-police, which is not strictly true. I am anti the system and culture and policies that encourage an arms race on the streets, and allow people to use handguns in a manner that would easily be found negligent if the people in question were not "certified officers".>If not
>then please don't say how certified offers should
>respond.From what I understand, the "certified officer" in question pulled his piece and fired at a target with a backdrop of other students (AKA innocent bystanders), and then missed with at least his first shot. Whether or not he is certified, he is certainly, IMO, certifible. From what I can see, the only person he was defending was himself as he was the only person being threatened, so this clown puts any number of others at risk for no better reason then to save his own skin. I'm all for self defence, but the "certified officer" has no more right to it then you or I or anyone else, and no right to put anyone else's life at risk in that quest.If it were you walking by, say with a CWP and a piece, and the goof-ball threatened you, and you did what the "certified officer" did, firing into a crowd, when do you suppose you'd be up for parole?>I've worked as a police offer and I'm still a
>certified officer.I can tell you that you don't wait to see
>if you're going to get shot before you decide to protect
>your life or that of a third party.No, _you_ don't do that, perhaps, and most police don't either, but lots of ordinary people feel that shooting up those you are supposed to protect because you are to busy protecting your own hide to care is rather low and shows lack of character. >If I tell you to get you
>hands where I can see them and to do it slowly that's what I
>mean.And if I refuse you gun me down, no further questions? I rest my case.>If I say to you to keep your hands where I can see them
>and you reach into your pockets you've just signed your
>death certificate.Not if you were that guard. You'd never get off a second shot. (Perhaps not -- I'm 50 something now and not so good as I used to be. The difference between you and me is that I spent nearly two years killing people for a living. With you it is at best a side line. That affects both your ability and your judgement. I very much suspect the "certified officer" in question flat paniced. At least I'd rather believe that then believe he was such a lousey shot as to miss at the range in question. OTOH, security agencies regularly let people loose with handguns that couldn't hit a barn iof they were standing inside of it.Brad Meyer

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-02 AT 09:56 AM (EST)

Gee, it sounds like kevarc advocates the death of people who put their hands in their pockets. Say it ain't so!"...thinking the boy was planning to pull a gun, the guard pulled his own weapon and fired"It seems the guard was in the wrong on two accounts. First, he fired before having any reason to believe the student actually had a weapon. Couldn't he have pulled his gun and yelled 'Freeze' before shooting, just to see if the student would comply? Secondly, he missed when shooting at the student and almost killed someone else! Now, the student was definetly in the wrong for threatening to kill the guard. But threatening is not the same as attempting. In reality the student should have been dealt with when the threat was made, because threatening to kill anyone is a serious matter. He should have been disciplined and expelled at that point, but then again maybe that would have made him want to kill the guard even more. In any event, I don't expect the student to have a long life-expectancy, because threatening to kill an armed guard and then taunting him is not a wise thing to do. High school students are known to exhibit poor judgement, but an armed guards who protects the lives of school children must be held to a higher standard. This guard sounds like more of a threat than a protector. In conclusion, both participants were wrong and made serious mistakes. I guess that's why it's in the news!!!Please keep me updated as to any developments in this case. I would like to know more details as they become available.And now, back to trains...

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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>It seems the guard was in the wrong on two accounts. >Now, the student was definetly in the wrong . . .This, IMO, is the nub of the matter. Both were wrong, and pointing out the "wrongness" of the one does not exuce the other.
Brad "I wonder if he could be charged as an accessory in his own shooting" Meyer

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Well people myself as a security officer i would have done the same thing. The way i see it we dont get paid enough to even think of getting shot at. if I was in the other s/o's boots i would have done the same and i know for a fact the cops would do the same sence we are trained by them in some subjects. and i know if a cop would have been there and not the s/o this wouldnt have been on the CNN news.
and im not sure but is this railway related?

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Has anybody read the article?The bad mouthing student wasn't shot.An innocent byestander was.The youth concerned was walking away,and was fired at.Just goes to show the intellect of persons employed by Pinkertons's.A trigger happy "guard" wanting the last word\shot.Just the crazy action condemned by all,when a civilian with a gun wants the last word in a tense situation.Are Pinkerton agents acredited law enforcement officers?,or civilians with guns?unlike a police force,whose officers have lawfull backing.The youth has been suspended from school,in the interim,and I trust the shooter will be too,or sacked,as impetuous actions like this need to be curtailed for the welfare of innocent citizens.

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-02 AT 02:33 PM (EST)

I read that article, and there's a witness version, and the guard's version...I admit I was somewhat confused by the conflicting POV's.From what I understand of it; the guard shot at the kid's hand, which was in his pocket; hit the phone, and a piece of shrapnel from the phone nailed somebody in the face. That's darn good shooting, to hit something that small that was concealed at that range, without actually hitting the student in the hand or leg.Or, if he missed and shot someone else's phone; the kid could actually have had a gun, whirled around and shot back. (Lotta kids like watching action movies; like to copy something they saw..Lethal Weapon or Die Hard for example)Which raises the question again..Do Pinkerton guards normally carry pepper spray/mace? I understand officers can hit a target up to 12 feet away with it; that would certainly disable the student without possibly killing him or someone else. If the student had a gun, the guard would have had another merit point on his record, the student placed under arrest, and the rest would be history. If not; the student would still be in hot water.

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The report's pretty clear that he shot at the boy,missed,and the round hit another person's pocket,via rebounding off the ground,shattering his pocketed cellphone,injuring his face.
The cellphone probably saved him from a more serious,perhaps life threatening injury.The actual trouble maker was walking away at the time.So the guard having missed,does that justify self defence if indeed the original person did have a gun and fired back,thinking HIS life was in danger?It clearly could be argued so,seeing as his back was turned to the shooter when the shot was fired.To me this story sums up the notion,that agency staff should exhibit patience when dealing with troublemakers,and not to vent their frustration,by firing a loaded weapon,without warning,when the matter was closed,by the person walking away from further confrontation.It would seem that no other gun was found,or the story would have read different,to that posted.It's a good job he didn't fire again,and that thankfully injuries,though sustained,were minor

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Another distinction that should be made is the big difference between real cops and rent-a-cops. My brother had been hired for a security job and worked a few shifts. The pay was minimum wage and the only qualification to carry a firearm was to be able to qualify at the pistol range. Qualify referring solely to his ability to shoot straight. I know a lot of people, myself included, that could pass the qualification but should not be turned loose on the general public with fake badge and real gun. There was half a days training covering ROE after that its out to the field. We are not talking about the SFPD or NYPD where applicants must first posess a 4 year degree, pass several background checks, and then complete the academy traing of several months. Not all departments require the university degree but there is some kind of formal training requirement that lasts longer than a day. I am by no means anti police, but I am very much opposed to the idea of armed rent-a-cops with little to no training.

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