Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of being s

hi people.
sometimes when i go down to the station i see some diesel trains due to leave in 2 hours or so, but they are just left running. why dont they get shut down until time to go?

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RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Stooopid_person, Oct-31-02, 04:53 AM, (1) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, 3000_kei, Oct-31-02, 02:12 PM, (12) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, mailer_daemon, Oct-31-02, 05:09 AM, (2) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, zdierkes, Oct-31-02, 05:29 AM, (3) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Claude350, Oct-31-02, 07:10 AM, (4) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, shoskins, Oct-31-02, 04:44 PM, (18) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, MikeF, Nov-01-02, 05:07 PM, (27) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Zero, Oct-31-02, 07:33 AM, (5) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, LARKIE, Oct-31-02, 08:55 AM, (6) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, MikeF, Nov-01-02, 04:59 PM, (26) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, fixin2, Nov-08-02, 07:19 PM, (33) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Stooopid_person, Oct-31-02, 09:08 AM, (7) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, troub, Oct-31-02, 09:15 AM, (8) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, calr, Oct-31-02, 11:04 AM, (9) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, CNfavorite, Oct-31-02, 11:38 AM, (10) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, zdierkes, Oct-31-02, 02:08 PM, (11) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Buddy, Oct-31-02, 04:14 PM, (16) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, MikeF, Nov-01-02, 05:13 PM, (28) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, 3000_kei, Oct-31-02, 02:15 PM, (13) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, zdierkes, Oct-31-02, 02:17 PM, (14) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, 3000_kei, Oct-31-02, 03:55 PM, (15) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, darkfyre, Oct-31-02, 04:18 PM, (17) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, LARKIE, Oct-31-02, 04:55 PM, (19) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, kwk100, Oct-31-02, 05:26 PM, (20) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, PatchCrew, Oct-31-02, 08:07 PM, (21) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Paul1953, Nov-08-02, 11:08 PM, (34) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Brad 110, Oct-31-02, 09:41 PM, (22) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, zachattack, Oct-31-02, 09:57 PM, (23) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, KingJPW, Nov-01-02, 07:22 AM, (24) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, buffy, Nov-01-02, 12:17 PM, (25) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, chicagorail, Nov-02-02, 00:46 AM, (29) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, LARKIE, Nov-02-02, 04:00 AM, (30) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, rob20, Nov-08-02, 01:07 PM, (31) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, MikeF, Nov-10-02, 07:20 PM, (39) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Lone_Gunman_SG, Nov-08-02, 04:27 PM, (32) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Stooopid_person, Nov-08-02, 11:22 PM, (35) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, PatchCrew, Nov-09-02, 02:26 AM, (36) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, Stooopid_person, Nov-09-02, 04:12 AM, (37) RE: Why are diesels left to idle so much instead of bei, mailer_daemon, Nov-09-02, 05:17 AM, (38)

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In MSTS, you can't shut anything down.-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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He is talking about real world
Pavlov

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(Wonders how much energy would be wasted, unless it is required for passenger service or maintaince?)

http://koti.mbnet.fi/rogorox/

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For one, a diesel engine (in general) is best to stay running unless its not going anywhere for a long time. it is hard on a diesl engine to start up and shut down alot. And must cool to a certain temp before can be shut down. so instead of letting it cool to right temp, and shut down, and then restart again........its left to run

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Part of that last response is true to a certain extent.during the winter months the locos are left running due to the fact that there are not equiped with antifreeze.the radiators must be drained to prevent a costly freeze up.During the summer months if a unit or unit are going to be sitting for awhile they are shut down to save fuel.If the locos are coupled to a train there is no need to shut them down due to the fact that it will take forever to pump up the air on the train.

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And part of the above is true to a certain extent.The statements about engine freezeups is very, very true. Freeze up an engine, you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace an engine if the block cracks.The part about pumping up the air taking forever is NOTHING to do with why engines are left idling for extended periods. Save fuel? Not really. I once read a chart showing the fuel consumption of various locomotives. I believe it said an SD45 at idle will burn 2.5 gallons per hour and at full throttle, the SD45 consumes around 285 gallons per hour. Let's figure an engine sits idle for ten hours. That's twenty five gallons of fuel -- and at the price the railroads get their fuel at, it's probably around $25.00 maximum expense. But if they shut the engine down and then it won't restart due to dead batteries (probably the LEAST expensive problem), it would cost more than $25.00 to send mechanics out to "jump-start" the loco....or change out the dead batteries with good ones. Just the labor alone....

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At full load a diesel can be more efficient than gas. It has a higher flame temperature. At part throttle, it isn't *more* efficient. But a petrol engine's efficiency drops quickly at part throttle or idle because of the pumping power it consumes in just sucking air through the throttle plate, into a vacumn in the manifold, and then compressing the air back up to atmosphere pressure in the exhaust. This means a gas engine uses more fuel at idle than a diesel does.A diesel pumps air through the cylinders at idle, but the pressure difference from inlet air box to exhaust is minimal. IIRC, the EMD's are actually two-stroke engines so much of the power to move the air into the cylinders comes from the exhaust via a turbo-charger when loaded. The turbo-charger is shaft driven at idle via an over-running clutch though.You're right about the fuel though, because a diesel is almost the same efficiency at idle that it is at full load, the fuel used is trivial.Considering the cost to idle, and the cost/wear/maintenance to shut them down and restart several times a day, the choice is clear.Mike F.

Mike F

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A diesel engine is very efficient at part throttle openings. At full throttle, a diesel is just as inefficient as a petrol engine. The less the throttle opening, the more efficient a diesel is in comparison. Thus, at idle, the diesel is incredibly efficient. Any start-up causes wear and thermal stress. It's best just to leave them running. The bigger the engine the more this applies.

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A lot of contradictions in terms,in the above.What efficiency is being talked about?Thermal,Mechanical,Fuel?A "highly efficient" engine idling,can't do much work eh?Rail diesels (no petrol ones,fire hazard from the fuel) are left idling to keep them warm,and to cut down cylinder wear.One cold start causes more wear than hundreds of hours of idling.As a Marine Engineer.All marine diesel engines,both main,and auxiliary electrical generators,although stopped to conserve fuel,when not required,are kept at running temperature,by jacket water circulated from the running diesels.This minimises "cold starting" wear problems,and raises the thermal efficiency of the other engines(less heat going to waste).It also means they can be started,and put on full load,faster than a cold engine.Also,before starting a marine engine,the lubricating oil to the crankshaft bearings is primed,by an external pump to full working pressure.This cuts down on the crankshaft wear,experienced during cold starting,as the engine driven luboil pump takes time to get the oil to all parts of the engine.Until such lubrication is achieved,highly loaded bearings run on boundary lubrication only,and thus wear faster.Main propulsion Diesels are most efficient at 100% loading,and are "tuned" to have the lowest specific fuel consumption at this loading.You've got to look after the fuel,if you're burning 250+tons\day,and make every ounce work efficiently.

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We use large diesels for standby power. The ones we have now are EMD's. All the manuals talk about whether the unit is a railroad application or stationary power so I get to see a lot of the similarities and differences.For one, we use anti-freeze, railroads don't. This means we have to de-rate our engines by almost 40% because anti-freeze/water mix is not as good at cooling as straight water. This is undoubtedly why railroads don't use anti-freeze (why buy an engine and then have to de-rate its power). Thus, they have to avoid freezing.Our engines are setup with what we call lube-oil soak-back. We have a small oil pump that runs *ALL THE TIME* to supply the bearing lube header with oil. A small check valve keeps the oil out of the upper gallery where it could seep into the 'power units' (GM's name for the cylinder/piston/injector assembly). On power loss, the engine can start immediately and have little bearing wear. I don't believe RR units have this, so each startup causes some wear that you don't get at idle. Especially if the engine is shutdown for a long time, the bearings get 'dry'.We use heaters in the soak-back system so the oil being circulated is warmed to over 100 degF. This helps maintain the clearances and the oil at the proper viscosity. RR don't have such heaters so starting cold is harder.I believe it all comes down to spending a little money ($25 of diesel fuel each day) to protect an investment in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.daestrom

Mike F

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>We use large diesels for standby power. The ones we have
>now are EMD's. All the manuals talk about whether the unit
>is a railroad application or stationary power so I get to
>see a lot of the similarities and differences.
>
>For one, we use anti-freeze, railroads don't. This means we
>have to de-rate our engines by almost 40% because
>anti-freeze/water mix is not as good at cooling as straight
>water. This is undoubtedly why railroads don't use
>anti-freeze (why buy an engine and then have to de-rate its
>power). Thus, they have to avoid freezing.
>MikeF, thanks for sharing this info. as a former engine service employee have never heard this. makes sense. in the 60's was told by older enginemen that cost was the factor for no anti freeze. coolant (water) did have an greenish color, but was told that was a rust inhibitor that was added.
>
>I believe it all comes down to spending a little money ($25
>of diesel fuel each day) to protect an investment in the
>hundreds of thousands of dollars.
>believe a 567 engine powered geep, 7,9,18 and the f's uses ABOUT 4 - 4.5 gal/hour at idle. of course the 645's then the bigger power with 20 cyls would use more. would guess that diesel fuel in the 40's - 60's might been around 10 - 12 cents/gal, maybe even less. believe it was the cheapest type diesel you could get. as a poor fireman in the winter was a mess climbing over those geeps that were dying because of plugged up fuel filters while blowing down the row at track speed, bitter cold, snow blowing in your face and everywhere else, dark (only your flashlight or head brakemans lantern that you had borrowed, made it easier to climb over) looking for a hammer in one of the noses (never one on the unit thats dying) forgetting to shut off the fuel pump of the dead unit, fuel everywhere, and on you too. ah, the life of a pre 282 fireboy.
shep, sound familiar?

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In England, Diesel trains at terminal stations shut down. Then about half an hour before the schelduled departure, it switches on. Then lots and lots of black smoke comes out from the exhaust. About 15 minutes later, the smoke becomes less. Then when the train moves the smoke becomes black and more again.-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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An important thing to think about is how diesel engines work. There are no spark plugs, so the fuel is ignited by pressure (the pressure caused by the previous cylinder exploding, etc.) and is a cycle. This cycle is difficult to start, but is easily maintained once it's going.Another thing is that at cold temperatures, diesel fuel is more likely to "gel" than other fuels (especially in small amounts like the amounts in the fuel lines), so if you keep it moving through the lines it helps.

troub
MSTS: Illinois Central

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I was told by a friend, who was a SP Switchman in the Roseville, CA yard for 30 years, that the main reason was to keep the cooling jacket seals/gaskets from breaking. He told me that if they shut a diesel down and allowed it to cool, all the gaskets and seals had to be replaced. A very costly and time consuming operation.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, ORColumbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 track about 90% complete. Scenery about 5%)

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Last few times I rode VIA between Toronto to Montreal, it looked like they shut the engine down while still in motion coming into the station. All the lights went off, and we just coasted in and braked.
I asked a porter why, and he said it was to reduce pollutions in the stations.My great grandfather breathed coal smoke in the stations regularly on his travels, my grandfather breathed coal smoke to diesel fumes in his life, my father breathed diesel fumes, and now I have to sit in a darkened passenger car like an idiot because some political jackass thinks 'my' generations doomed if we breath an ounce of smoke? The same jackass that drives a huge SUV in downtown and leaves it idling for 10min while he runs into a Starbucks to buy his Double Frappe Latte, easy on the foam?I love the smell of diesel in the morning... It smells like....
Victory!

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I see lashed up locos go by work all the time, and there may be four engines therte but only one running, and they will come to a stop for a pass siding, the switchman or conductor (who ever rides with the driver)will go back and flip some switches in the cab elec. box, go bout midway back in engine compartment, and a good whine, a few red hot sparks alot of smoke, he fires the others up. Now if these engines cant be let to cool down, why the hell are they off right before they are needed to be started?

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Company operating policys and good equiptment operating policys are not always the same. Office bean counters are often dollar foolish to save pennys. IE: Shutting down machinery to save a few cents worth of fuel or electricy irreguardless of the wear and tear on the machinery.
The repair budget money is often in a different pot than the operating budgets, ergo save those pennys in the operating budget!!

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They CAN be shutdown (your experience proves it). But shutting down and starting up every couple of hours isn't very good for them. Possibly the lashup you see is the first job of the day?Then again, I suppose every road has their own policy.

Mike F

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Very melodious English there.
Pavlov

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>Very melodious English there.
Huh?

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Its not reply to YOU, look closely it says in response of message #10.Pavlov

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-02 AT 04:21 PM (EST)

I dont know much about diesels, but I heard the heavy-duty trucks up here (city plows, dump trucks) that run on diesel fuel have what's known as 'glow plugs'; aptly named because apparently they're so hot they glow in the dark...Dunno if they're used everywhere; but up here they're used to keep the engine warm, and prevent 'cold' starts when the engine is shut off for a while...Could these be used in locomotive engines?

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Glow plugs are used as a source of heat to the air being compressed in the engine cylinder,and also as a source of ignition,additional to the compressed airs high temperature,when the diesel fuel is injected.You don't need glow plugs fitted to every cylinder,unless specifically specified.All you need is one or two,as when the cylinder fitted with a glow plug fires,the resultant acceleration of the engine compresses the air in the other cylinders faster,to a higher temperature than that obtained turning the engine with a starter motor or compressed air starting.Compressed air starting can indeed defeat the purpose,as it chills the already cold cylinders.Glow plugs do not keep the engine warmed.They are switched on for a few minutes,prior to starting the engine,to prewarm the air in the cylinders to which they're fitted.Once the engine is started,they must be turned off,to prevent damage to them,and to ensure premature ignition of the fuel does not take place,during normal running.

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-02 AT 05:28 PM (EST)

Most of the above is correct, they leave diesels running to conserve fuel and to limit the stress due to constant start up and shut down, but most importantly to save the engine. If an engine sits in one position (ie the engine is shut off and nothing is turning), your engine will start to fail over time due to stress on the bearings and other rotating parts. While sitting the bearings, and anything part that is designed to turn will develop flat spots. The flat spots occur because of a large load sitting on a stationary object, compating the stationary object. These flat spots will cause knocking and a rough ride. More importantly this will gouge the block or other parts of the engine creating wear thus decreacing the efficiency and reliability of the engine. This is a very important concept when it comes to mills, during a shut down. They will connect a small electric motor to any pumps, drums or other large rotating equipment in order to keep the equipment rotating in order to stop the rotating shafts and bearings inside the equipment from developing flat spots. There is a whole branch of Mechanical Engineering called Vibration Analysis which deals with this.kwk100,A Diesel drinking, piston clankin', air pollutin', smoke belchin' ten wheel buggy, from Seattle WA...

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Now let me add my two cents.Let's start with UP rules. UP locomotives are supposed to be shut down if they are not going to be used for over an hour AND the temperature is not going to drop below 40 degrees. From that statement the reasons are to save fuel but as said above locomotives do not have antifreeze so you would have big problems if it was cold outside.Next reason some are not shutdown. Extreme battery drain when starting a locomotive. An Engineer would never shut units down if in a siding for a long period of time because he may be the one to find out that the batteries are too weak to re-start the unit. In yard service you might shut them down since Roundhouse personnel are on duty in case of any problems. Another reason for leaving locos running is have any of you ever seen a starter motor on a EMD loco? It isn't too much bigger than an automobile starter (not joking). The starters are so small that per the rules if the unit does not start the first time you are to wait two minutes for the starter motor to cool before attempting to start the unit again. Most GE locos (not sure about first generation GE's) do not have a starter motor. The engine is started by spinning the generator.Now to shoskins statement:>The part about pumping up the air taking forever is NOTHING to do with why engines are left idling for extended periods.Yes sir I'm afraid it does! But in a different way. If you were leaving a train (not just locomotives but an entire train) at a location where another crew would not be taking over for awhile and you decided to shut down the units you would ALWAYS leave one unit running to maintain the air pressure in the trainline. If you shut down all of the units and the brakes were applied on the train you would be "bottling the air". Bottling the air means to apply the brakes on the train and cut away from those cars without opening the angle cock on the car cut away from. Eventually when the trainline pressure dropped to near nothing the brakes would release and the train/cars would roll away. You NEVER bottle the air on a train or standing cut of cars. That is why when uncoupling from a train or cars the angle cock is always left open on the cars being left behind. Those cars then go into emergency with the angle cock open and the brakes are applied at maximum. I would take a very long write up to explain the hows and whys of bottling air and why the brakes would release so this is just a quick explanation.So here are a few more reasons units are not shutdown.PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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"Charlie don't surf!"

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>I was told by a friend, who was a SP Switchman in the
>Roseville, CA yard for 30 years, that the main reason was to
>keep the cooling jacket seals/gaskets from breaking. He
>told me that if they shut a diesel down and allowed it to
>cool, all the gaskets and seals had to be replaced. A very
>costly and time consuming operation. I can well believe that. something worth noting is that the block itself is a huge piece of metal. It likely expands and contracts the best part of an inch between cold iron and operating temp. So, does everything attached to it move some portion of that amount. The fact that there are many different metals involved in the various attachments, each with their own coefficients of expansion, worsens the problem. I worked on some 1930's era Alco diesel engines on an ATF back in the '60's (the only concession to marine enviornment I saw was the cooling system being connected to a fw/sw tube and shell heat exchanger instead of a radiator). Bringing one of them up from cold iron was a bit of work, but beside that, it was like half an hour getting them up to temp and evenly heated and ready to take load. If they weren't ready, you rand the risk of putting a serious hurt on the engine if you threw load at it.
Brad Meyer

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Because if you shut the diesel off, it'll take a while to warm up again. That's what my mom's friend's son told me. He works in a lumber warehouse in Wichita Falls, Texas. One time, one of the whells of their weekly trains car derailed. The engineer told Tom(the guy that works at the warehouse),"Tom, get me a 2x4 piece of wood." He put the wood under the wheel, the engineer backed up, and the boxcar was re-railed.
Zach, future railroad worker(I'm only ten)

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This was a very informative thread. I just wanted to say that I always laugh when people complain about the pollution of idling engines. I live in Los Angeles and on any given day there are probably about 100 engines in the area. And then every day there are thousands and thousands of cars on the freeway idling away in traffic. At least trains are dedicated to doing something useful for society, whereas most cars on the road are people out and about doing the most trivial errands... And the same people who would support a law banning idling engines would continue to drive cars. And if the rail system became electrified they would complain that the overhead electrical wires are visual pollution. There will always be a small segment of people who will bitch about anything.My 2 cents

Yard Duty, The National Freight Yard Simulation - http://groups.msn.com/YardDuty

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another interesting factoid about this subject. The SP and D&RG experimented with some Diesal-Hydrolic locomotives from KRAUSS-MAFFEI. One of the problems with them was the way we (in the US) leave these locomotives in Idle for long periods of time. the European locomotives were just not designed to handle that.....

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You talk about battery drain, this whole time I thought they were air starters. Do they still use the air starts any more? Seems more economical to as apposed to expensive batteries that need replacing and run out. With an air starter in the event you run out you could start up a ponie motor to spin the compressor

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As said before,air starting chills an already cold engine further.Why have a compressor,which requires extra maintenance,and it's own control system,plus an air tank which requires it's own safety survey,when there's more than enough electricity to spare,when the engine is running,to keep starting batteries charged.The hydraulic system referred to above is not unique.Most hydraulic pumps fail,through the oil not being circulated whilst idling for long periods.Unless there's an auxiliary control system installed to circulate cold oil through the pump,whilst it's idling,or a clutch system between the prime mover and the pump is installed,the oil already trapped within the pump,can overheat,causing damage to the pump's seals,and other components.

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I now the cp 9300's sd90mac 6000hp have air start because I had the 9300 on the point once and it died and started and died and we restarted and then we ran out of starter air and we were toast. Good thing we only had one unit!
Handy when you are in the middle of no where!

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As I said before, I work with standby power diesels that are actually EMD 645's. The manuals talk about use for either railroad or stationary power plant use.We start ours with air motors. Somewhat like the electric starters, but use compressed air instead of batteries. We have two compressors and two air-tanks piped into *four* air-motors (two on each side). (We really want to make sure these things start I have seen diesels (old Fairbanks-Morse) that used air 'injected' into the cylinders with an 'air-distributer' to roll the engine for starting. But they were the opposed-piston type FM's used for submarine duty. *LOTS* of compressed air available on subs But starting engines on subs required we manually 'bar' over the engine to be sure the cylinders where clear and coat bearings with oil before admitting starting air.

Mike F

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is it even possible to shut off trains? I know with steam you just kill the fire basically. But how do diesels work? they got keys?
premium add-ons

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-02 AT 11:23 PM (EST)

>they got keys? Yes. It works in the same way as Diesel trucks.
-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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>they got keys?No they don't and they are not like trucks. To start up a locomotive you have to open a engine access door on the outside and you will find a start station next to the engine. To shut a unit down you push the fuel cutoff button. There is one in the cab and one on each side of the locomotive just above the fuel tank.PatchCrew
UP Engineer

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>>they got keys?
>
>No they don't and they are not like trucks. Well, Electric trains have keys.-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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And they are needed to start up an electric train...

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