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WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query

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Reading Topic #2035

Charter Member · 2811 posts

On real railroads, the engineer is supposed to know the route intimately, which obviates the need for any type of direction/location signs. In real life he also just drives the route set up by the remote switch operators, and has to slow down or stop and kick out a brakeman to reset manual switches in yards and spurs, but trainsim ain't real life. What I was wondering is if anyone knows of real life railroads that use direction/location signs on the route to indicate where you are and where the diverging path is gonna take you, and if so what those kind of signs would look like. Here's my "route of the pretzel benders" main map:WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 1
This map covers only the player route, it's actually two seperate routes within one, with a different track layout for the AI trains that merges with and seperates from the player driveable tracks at different points. The activities are set up similar to explore route, where you choose your own path with the switch window, the only exceptions being that the AI traffic junctions have auto switches that can't be thrown in an activity. All other switches are manual, the trouble being that it's easy to get lost since you throw the manual switch ahead of you and you don't know if that leads to a different town or a dead end spur.
WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 2
This is a new section on PO&N6, not on the above map. The two outer tracks are AI routes, the one on the far left merges with the left inner track, then diverges again further up. The player has a choice here, if he continues straight ahead on the left inner, he'll be heading to Sundermeyer, if he throws the switch to cross over to the right inner he'll be on the track to Fowlis. This "main divide" sign is something I came up with today, I'd like to know if there's something more prototypical. Also it would be nice to place some signs saying which track leads where, but again I'm trying to keep the look as prototypical as possible while compromising for playability.WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 3
I don't like the look of the big yard marker cube, this is to let the player know the area he's driving into is a dead end, without using an actual road sign "dead end no outlet", which would look really silly on a railroad.WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 4
I dunno why anyone would explore route when open ended activities with loose consists and AI trains is a better option, but some people do, and throw the auto switches onto the AI route and get lost. It's difficult, but possible to overrun a stop signal in an activity and end up driving onto the AI route too. So I came up with this, the yellow sign indicates the AI route, the green the player route, so you can't drive onto the AI route without knowing about it. These were default signs, but I altered the colors and cranked up the gamma on the texture so you could see them from more than 5 feet away in the sim.WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 5
There are lots of wyes to turn around on, but finding them can sometimes be difficult, this is my solution at present to mark the switches leading to the wyes.Anyway, that's what I got so far, anyone who knows something or even suspects something about prototypical signage feel free to toss your two cents worth in. Pictures would be nice, but descriptions are also good.

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RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., Hack, Jul-30-02, 10:17 PM, (1) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., sniper297, Jul-30-02, 10:27 PM, (2) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., Hack, Jul-30-02, 10:46 PM, (3) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., CPR_Malice_96th, Jul-30-02, 10:55 PM, (4) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., sniper297, Jul-31-02, 00:43 AM, (5) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., pennsyfan2, Jul-31-02, 01:34 AM, (6) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., sniper297, Jul-31-02, 08:40 AM, (7) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., highball5, Aug-03-02, 00:33 AM, (18) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., bnsf4794, Aug-02-02, 04:36 PM, (17) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., dvdhoven, Jul-31-02, 09:07 AM, (8) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., flarrfan, Jul-31-02, 12:31 PM, (9) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., andrewpickell, Jul-31-02, 01:22 PM, (10) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., sniper297, Aug-01-02, 01:02 PM, (11) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., nw_fan, Aug-01-02, 01:49 PM, (12) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., dvdhoven, Aug-01-02, 01:55 PM, (13) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., sniper297, Aug-01-02, 04:41 PM, (14) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., Hack, Aug-01-02, 05:21 PM, (15) RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query., sniper297, Aug-02-02, 03:05 PM, (16)

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Charter Member · 974 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Hi Jim,I've seen mile posts used where the location, and its elevation, are clearly marked (ATSF, SP, NS, and CSX are perfect examples). This is usually in the form of short, white concrete or wooden post, with the lettering of elevation set horizontally, and the location set at a 90 degree angle. The SP pic below looks to be about 12" wide, 24" tall, and about 2" thick with beveled corners. Posts in the pic appears to be set about 6 to 8' from the rails....by golly - here's one next to an F-Unit. WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 6Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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Charter Member · 2811 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Now THAT'S cool. Problem with the location name tho, "Fouling" could be confused with a fouling point for a switch, I think they sometimes use markers for those too. Obviously a post like that would have to be blown up out of scale or it wouldn't be visible in the sim from far enough away, but it's workable. Clone and hack one of the milepost marker .s files maybe, make a bunch of location posts like that, only using them as markers indicating where the track leads.
I haven't looked at 3Dtrains lately, you guys make a route of your own, or was that "the other outfit with the stuffing added"?

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Charter Member · 974 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

>Now THAT'S cool. Problem with the location name tho,
>"Fouling" could be confused with a fouling point for a
>switchAnd you're probably right (it hadn't occurred to me) - the ones I remember seeing I can't locate.

>I haven't looked at 3Dtrains lately, you guys make a route
>of your own, or was that "the other outfit with the stuffing
>added"?"3DTrains - No Stuff, Just Trains." Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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Charter Member · 1328 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

I don't know where you are,BUTI'm still lookin for Mount Maliceor bcdef bluffs in that mapheheLaterTim Kent
WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 7
"Power for You"
WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 8
96th_Malice

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Charter Member · 2811 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Well, I dunno where Mount Malice or bcdef bluffs are either, I'm still trying to figure out where I am! Anyway, I'm smoking a Kent, that's enough immortality for you for one night, and Alphabet Boy don't bluff, the kid is for real! If there is a location named after him it would be "bcdef bouncing off the walls" or something, and it would more likely turn up on Seaview than anyplace else.
Marc, I just looked at your website (I thought I was visiting it regularly, turned out I was full of "stuff" and therefore on the "wrong" website), and you do indeed have a route, the Cajon Pass! And here I thought that one was made by 3Dtrainstuff.
I've heard good things about it, can't give you a personal opinion tho, since guys who own chickens don't go out and pay for eggs, so I never got any of the payware routes. Somebody does the C&NW between 40th Street and Proviso yards I'd be sorely tempted to pay cash, but that's about it. You guys want to make some serious money, you oughtta do the long awaited Island of Sodor route, seems like practically everyone who started one has given up for one reason or another.
Anyway, back on topic, I'm gonna wait a few more days to see what kind of input I get on this. Balancing realistic appearance with something that is actually visible enough to provide guides for lost engineers is gonna be tricky, but nobody takes the PO&N that seriously anyway, so if I gotta toss in some highway signs I can live with it!

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Charter Member · 190 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Sniper.BNSF Uses White sign boards along the mainline in NE, usually supported by double post. They look to be approx 6- 8 inches high and as long as necesaary to give the name (Black letters) often include mileage.For an example ofwhat I mean go tohttp://www.bnsfpix.com/action/index.php?list=30 BNSF aT Hobart,CA (The San Padro Junction) sign

pennsyfan2

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Charter Member · 2811 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Thanks, Pennsyfan, I guess the old MR saying that "there's a prototype for everything somewhere" is proven once again! I dunno why I didn't think of that, I was screwing around trying to sort out Jim Steven's ALL_OBJECTS.REF a few months ago, and it had about 50 "Mainline Stations" from Marias Pass with that type of sign on them. How these were classified as "Mainline Stations" is beyond me, they look more like tool sheds.

Attachments
WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 9
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d47dacc59617a84.jpg

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Charter Member · 184 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Those signs are definitly prototypical of the BNSF system on the
Creston/Omaha subs. Any point that's listed as a siding or station
on the track map gets one of those black and white signs with it's
name. Of course the ones even remotely close to 'civilization' are
riddled with good-ol'-boy bullet holes

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Charter Member · 135 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Sniper,A little clarification: The Cajon Pass Route IS by 3DTrainstuff. Marc from 3DTrains joined up on this project with some of his rolling stock since it fits so beautifully with this route. He also was gracious and allowed the route to sell on his site when we were having trouble with our website.John Greenstone
Route Designer
www.3dtrainstuff.com

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Charter Member · 1145 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Hi,Jim, I like the idea very much. I cannot add much about prototypical, I am not American. But to know where I am, which track is AI and to see where a wye is, is a great idea.
And the idea of using the Marias Pass station signs is IMHO a good one.Dick van den HovenWHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 10

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Charter Member · 786 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Uh, Jim, PO&N is YOUR railroad...you make the rules.Like someone in this thread has pointed out, "there's a prototype for everything." Particularly on a fictional layout, I think directional signs are great. Still remember the first time I ran PO&N (probably back around version 2), went into Explore, and five minutes later my locos were tumbling off the end of track into a river at the bottom of a gorge. NO FUN! Really could have used directions (whoa! Can I stay in the male fraternity with that admission ?)I think the concept you're working with, unique signs for your route and the needs of its users, is prototypical, so just do it!Kent

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Charter Member · 2811 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Hee-hee, I know that, Kent, but hard as this may be to believe, the PO&N is a fictional route with pretensions to being as realistic as possible, compromising on realism only as necessary for playability. The coal mine is a good example, realistically there's a coal loading tipple outside the coal mine, full size trains do not drive directly into a coal mine and switch cars around, but that feature is so much fun I just had to do it. Perceptions on that sort of thing depend on individual taste, my father and my oldest brother are a lot like you, put together a first class passenger express or a lo-o-o-ong freight train, take it out on the mainline and highball, never move the reversing lever, front coupler bug? what front coupler bug, do the couplers actually work? Consequently the one model railroad the three of us built together back in '83 had an HO scale 2.7 miles of double tracked mainline, and I had to do all the little industry spurs myself, they weren't interested. Hopefully MSTS2 will have multiplayer capability, cuz I had a lot of fun running against traffic with my peddler freight moving cars from one siding to the next while they were running their trains around the mainline (we had Keller command & control wired up so you could drive and seperately control up to 20 engines at the same time without block wiring). Took up the whole basement, but it was fun. The PO&N is actually like the timesaver route, designed for switching operations before it grew into a monster!Anyway, since it's my route and I'm making it for my personal tastes, I don't worry about trying to please anyone else. But I always look for and listen to input, since the more people you get involved in a project the more ideas you have to choose from.Got a new idea, dunno why I didn't think of it before. Ron "Stationmaster" Paludin has an old file in the downloads for station signs, so I'm cloning those to get additional objects. Decompressing and renaming the .s files, then copying each one to another one, I end up with ponsign1.s, ponsign2.s, and so forth up to 8, and then copy each of those to ponsign11.s, ponsign12.s, etc. The original comes with 8 S and SD files that skin with a different section from the same ace file, with 8 steps down from the top, so it don't take up a lot of space. Cloning the S and SD files like that, if I make 40 shapes I only need 5 ace files to skin them. I'm customizing the bejeezus out of this version, I may bust 10 megs with the next upload!Here's what I got so far, I may standardize these signs or change them, right now I'm just experimenting to see what looks good, and more importantly, what don't.WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 12
Dick, when you get lost, all you gotta do is go home!WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 13
Nice thing about Ron's signs, in addition to being very space efficient, is that they can be stuck on any building.WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 14
As well as the stations they were intended for.WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 15
Sticking a signal tower with a sign on it at the entrance to each town looks pretty good too. This new town is named after a guy who makes all of this possible, but since he works so quietly behind the scenes, people hardly ever think of his contribution.Still gotta sort out the direction signs, but I suspect using some default object with one of Ron's signs on it will probably be the easiest.

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Charter Member · 457 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 16

In regards to your juntion tower signs, I would think an abbreviation would be more prototypical. Along those lines, some sort of Division map with cities, mileposts, cities - tower abbreviations, etc... in PDF format or something similar would be the most prototypical, I would think. It would be great to print out for use while on the route.

Mike Rector
NORFOLK & WESTERN
Precision Transportation

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Charter Member · 1145 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

>Dick, when you get lost, all you gotta do is go home!
LOL!!!!
Hey Jim,That's looking good. Yes I like it. It always bothers me a little, when I drive on a route and see Shelby on the depot and see eg Smallville in the station monitor.Dick van den HovenWHERE AM I? Prototype signs query – image 17

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Charter Member · 2811 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Hee-hee, it's even worse when there's Japanese writing on what's supposed to be an American station, take a look at how I hid all those in Johnsburg!
Yeah, I agree with that one, Mike, and I am still considering Marc's posts thing, with just two letter designations on those for where the track leads.
Trouble is, you wouldn't believe how many emails and posted questions there are about "where can I get route maps for the PO&N?", even after I changed the folder named to \1Maps&Docs&Hacks so it would show up at the top of the list! So including maps and a list of which two letter abbreviations mean what as a pop-up that automatically printed itself out on installation might work, assuming everyone even has a working printer. Probably easier to go with the full name, it's only a game and most people won't be interested in getting that realistic. If they were they would explore the route until they were so familiar with it they wouldn't need navigational aides, but then they'd be as bored with it as the real engineers probably are.

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Charter Member · 974 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Along with signage, you could also create a "Take-a-Tour" activity, that pops a proximity message of where the user is at some given point:"Welcome to Foo-foo Jct. To the right you'll notice the tye-dye mountains, a one time popular hangout for flower children. To the left we have the ever-popular red-light district..."Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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Charter Member · 2811 posts

RE: WHERE AM I? Prototype signs query.

Hmmm, my talents stop way short of putting together something like that, but not a bad idea. Maybe I can sweet talk the pineapple king into writing one of those tours for PO&N6, did you see the one he did for the East Metro?

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