Standardization of MSTS skin colors

Has anyone attempted or proposed a standardization of colors to use for reskins? Such and such RGB settings for, say, ATSF warbonnet red, so and so RGB settings for, say, D&RG orange? There appears to be some standardization of colors for model railroad manufacturing, so I was wondering if the same has been proposed for MSTS. I was thinking about this the other day when I was working on an orange and gray ICG skin for a Dekosoft GP38, and realizing that perhaps my idea of ICG orange didn't match up to someone else's idea of ICG orange.

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Standardization of MSTS skin colors [View All], mrmgp, 05:40 PM, Mar-05-03, (0) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, chosenfrozen44, Mar-05-03, 06:29 PM, (1) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-06-03, 00:22 AM, (2) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, wdq4587, Mar-06-03, 03:21 AM, (3) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, dispatcher618, Mar-06-03, 11:52 AM, (4) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-07-03, 04:06 AM, (5) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, kevarc, Mar-07-03, 09:08 AM, (6) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, pwillard, Mar-07-03, 01:26 PM, (7) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-07-03, 06:54 PM, (8) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, pwillard, Mar-09-03, 08:53 PM, (16) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-11-03, 01:42 AM, (28) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, wdq4587, Mar-10-03, 08:35 PM, (27) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, CPR_Malice_96th, Mar-09-03, 11:46 AM, (13) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, Mark_Blum, Mar-09-03, 08:57 PM, (17) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, kevarc, Mar-10-03, 09:54 AM, (25) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, GaryH2, Mar-07-03, 07:33 PM, (9) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, controll, Mar-07-03, 07:56 PM, (10) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, dispatcher618, Mar-08-03, 10:41 PM, (11) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-09-03, 00:14 AM, (12) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, plainsman, Mar-09-03, 04:50 PM, (14) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-09-03, 06:40 PM, (15) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, pwillard, Mar-09-03, 09:01 PM, (19) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-10-03, 00:24 AM, (20) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, Verne, Mar-10-03, 01:39 AM, (21) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-10-03, 02:21 AM, (22) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, dispatcher618, Mar-10-03, 02:50 AM, (23) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, kevarc, Mar-10-03, 10:00 AM, (26) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, gryphonone, Mar-11-03, 01:52 AM, (29) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, pwillard, Mar-13-03, 09:18 PM, (30) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, wpfan, Mar-09-03, 08:59 PM, (18) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, TexasWestern70Mac, Mar-10-03, 04:28 AM, (24) RE: Standardization of MSTS skin colors, GaryH2, Apr-14-03, 07:17 PM, (31)

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personally i like that idea i i already did that for my use with the burlington northern..the sd 9 i made ino a new color and the sw1000 and fixed up a bunch of the sd 40-2's..but that kind of takes some of the fun out of reskinning and some units fade to different colors in real life

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Also keep in mind that different people may adjust thier monitors according to thier color perception. A younger person tends to have a more vivid color perception than does a person of a little more age does. Coupled with the fact theres so many adjustments to achieve the color desired within the paint programs themselves, so a standardized chip color would get adjusted anyways based upon the way one sees it compared to the reference one uses to color the model. For what its worth, to obtain a particular color I load the image or photo into the editor than sample the color and go to define new color which shows the variable table if the color itself, I then write these down in a color library for future refrence. Sort of developing a personal standardized color refrence.
John

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Just like water have many color in different time and different place. There are many color. Even one loco in different light condition color is very different. I don't think you need standardization. Reskin actually is not paint oil to model! Because MSTS rolling stock can not reflect blue sky (at least in this version) like real one or model. So you need make some compensation on color to let it look more reality. Unfortunatlely, most reskin not works that way.What I wonder is why many repainter don't compare they screenshot with real photo they used as prototype. Many times color difference is too much! Does they never hear HSB?

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Actually, that's not what standardization would solve.What it would solve is that my D&RGW F-unit repaint will have colors that match somebody else's D&RGW passenger cars. Instead of seeing two different yellows or silver or grey or whatever, they will match when put into the same consist on a single computer.

- DISPATCHER 618

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I may be mistaken but it is my belief that individual models are made with different lighting effects in the modeling process itself. If that is so then any combination of lighting effect would throw off the contrast to another model by another author, thus to achieve the standardization you describe would necessatate a standard lighting effect as it applies to any model along with a color matching ability. Very difficult to do, then theres the curve of weathering in different models too. To get the match you describe you would almost have to paint the locos and passenger cars together. Just a thought, John

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Have you ever tried to herd cats?Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.com

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No kidding... Agreeing on just a single color for prototypes is going to require a miracle, IMHO.Look at the prototype. There are at least 10 different shades of Conrail blue depending on age, era, dirt, rust, oxidization, soot build-up, etc.It's a nice idea to say we can come up with BALLPARK numbers... but not absolute colors.FYI: In my experience, sampling a color from a photograph is NOT really a reliable way to get the "right" color.What we "could" do is start posting the RGB values of prototype colors we use for ourselves and then leave it up to the reader to decide if they want to use them for themselves or not.We might end up with 10 UP GOLDS... but that means we have 10 colors to try before we give up trying to blindly find the right color ourselves...
Pete Willard
http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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Hi Pete, Kevarc's right in herding cats, I realize sampling a color of a photo isn't the best but sometimes it's the only thing to work with. But in all honesty the way we've been doing things is probably the best approach to painting the models, there are just way too many variables to establish a color standardization. I redid the CIRR boxcar .ace file, hope it is a better rendition of the way it's supposed to be, figured you would be about the best judge of that seeing how you have seen them firsthand. Thanks, John

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Sorry... I never jumped in to say that I liked the improvement. Good Job!
Pete Willard
http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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Thanks Pete! John

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> I realize sampling a color
>of a photo isn't the best but sometimes it's the only thing
>to work with. But in all honesty the way we've been doing
>things is probably the best approach to painting the models,
>there are just way too many variables to establish a color
>standardization.
>No! Sampling color from photo at first time. Make screenshoot in MSTS at near situation (angle, time), compare the color with you use (or photo) at begin. Make compensation (for Example adjust RGB mix) to let it more similar. It's realy difficult on process! And don't use a photo with blue sky as prototype. MSTS don't have blue sky as light (check sun.env).

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-03 AT 11:47 AM (EDT)

>Have you ever tried to herd cats? LMAO !!Nope. I have an Australian Cattle Dog ( Blue Heeler ) that keeps them all 4 cats herded up in one of our spare bedroomsThis dog has been the BEST method of keeping cat hair off of our living room furniture.PS: edited for spelling...........need coffee !!!!Tim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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Herding cats is kinda like a goat rope. Ever try to rope a goat?Mark
A Southern Railway Fan

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My Australian Shepard does to. But then she is a lot faster than me and can turn on a dime. My Chow/Golden Retreiver mix just prefers to kill them.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.com

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-03 AT 07:34 PM (EDT)

Its an interesting idea. I brought that up a little while ago. THese forums are a great tool for colors. As an example, when I did up the Guilford #288, several comments said the stripe was too red. It was valuable feedback and I changed the color.The different shades and even quality of photograph make standardization difficult. My advice is to post a beta pic and ask for comments (but be prepared...and don't take it personally!). GH

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Hi Guys,One thing being overlooked here is that not all monitors and graphics cards report the colors that you see on your screens correctly...so what I see as lime green may be a shade lighter or darker based on another users monitor and card settings...so it would be very difficult to get them to agree and even with the RGB settings equal it may produce a slightly different version for each person.Rick

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-03 AT 10:59 PM (EDT)

... This is where you start calibrating your monitor. I know Photoshop works with color profiles.. does Paint Shop Pro use them too?Trying to decide what is really SP Daylight Orange, and what isn't probably will produce a variey of opinions. That's what happens when you have 24-bit color (millions!) at your fingertips.A standardized color palette allows someone who is about to paint or repaint something the chance to say, "I don't care what it looks like in the photo, all my diesels are going to have this paint scheme with this color and that color using these RGB values." Maybe what could happen is these larger groups like NALW and others could post the values they use on their web site, or as a PDF file on the forum. Then, if I want to repaint something to match something else they've already done, I have the references handy. Just a suggestion.Edit: Also, with the weathering thing... You still need to have a base color before you weather it. When I put an SD40 that just went through the wash next to its counterpart that just came in from a dusty rainstorm, they still gotta look like they have the same basic colors painted on them.

If you're going to inconsistently paint your rolling stock with different variations of the same color, then you need to back it up with some story about how management always bought cheap paint from the lowest bidder, or how the recipie for the colors were lost in that tragic office fire a few years back, or, because of an increase in the car maintenance budget, higher quality paint is just now being applied.

- DISPATCHER 618

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I tried the route of sampling the colors of a model then using those exact codes plugged into the color definition routine of the editor used and they still are not exact match. Calibrating a monitor is of no great help either as there are dozens of calibration utilities to make adjustments to. Calibrators would have to be standardized also, keep in mind the phospher used in the monitor tubes would have to be standard formulation also. John

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There are also obvious differences in different models of the real thing. The UP SD70M is a more rich golden color compared to the SD60s and AC44s. Tne BNSF SD70Macs have weathered very differently unit to unit. I suspect, the color is a little different depending on the climate and environment (acid rain or urban polution). If you extract a color from a photo and sample 8 differnet areas, you will get 8 different readings, based on the lighting and shading in the photo.
Bob

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Ah yes! yet another variable in the sampleing of a photo scheme, noticed when you zoom way up in the photo editor theres a whole buncha different colored squares around where you choose to sample.
Standardization is supposed to incorporate a level in certainty in something, but as we all know nothing is more certain than change! John

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-03 AT 09:04 PM (EDT)

Bang! On the head... That was my point about sampling a photo. Two pixels next to each other might be quite different. You are only sampling one of them... the correct color is actually what your eye does when those two were next to each other... not when a solid block of that single color is used. Think of this like the way you would anti-aliasing to make really small text more readable... by making it blurry??? It doesn't make sense but we all know it works.Maybe using a technique that reduces the number of colors in the photo would lead to more reliable sampling.Recently there was a discussion about black...IMHO: Black should never be darker than RGB: 32,32,32 unless it's part of an alpha mask. It gets "way" to dark for the SIM. Using really dark blacks tends to amplify the splotchy ALPHA'd texture problem si I use black sparingly... at least in my experience. Some of my early models had real problems with this before I caught on.
Pete Willard
http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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Hi Pete, Thanks for the pointer on the black, I'll try that on the next black thing that crosses my path! John

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Not sure about PSP, but Photoshop allows for a 5 pixel by 5 pixel "average", a 2 x 2 average as well as the single pixel sampling. The 5 x 5 works pretty well as long as you have a "pure" 5 x 5 size spot on the photo to sample. I say "pure" in that metal distortion, reflections and light 'n shadow will tend to distort any actual color. If you are a color "fanatic", one other thing no one has mentioned that throws another monkey wrench into this whole thing is that various films have color tendencies. Whether the photo is actually representing true color is iffy. Kodack film tends to be bluish, Fuji - green and the old Anscrome - red. Additionally all "over the counter" digital cameras tend to have color tendencies as well. And so, whether you are sampling the real "Conrail, UP, SP, etc" color in a photo is questionable at best.A few years ago, I bought a high end digital color sampler which I used in my commercial art biz (needed it to capture the true color of client's products in printed illustrations). Worked pretty well, if you had an actual physical item to get the color sample from. However, even with it and a digital monitor calibrator for your monitor it still is a "crap shoot" to match color. The bottom line is a good eye. It is about as accurate as anything.-Verne

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Hi Verne, The last part of your reply brings to mind something also about how we percieve colors, The colors one sees on a monitor is seen as a direct transmissive source, being the phospher is being excited by the electron beam to illuminate in the color directed by the scan, whereas a solid object in the real world is providing a reflective source of light. Any said color on a solid object has a certain level of absorbtion and reflection, best demonstrated by shining a laser pointer at a white object and a dark object, the difference is amazing.
John

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I'm going to write one more message on this topic, then I'll button my mouth.It amazes me how someone can pose the question about standardizing colors to specific RGB mixes, which then starts a huge discussion about how much of a pain in the neck it would be because nobody's photos are absolutely correct, nobody's monitor is calibrated just right, and everybody's perception of Conrail Blue is slightly different. Well, isn't that why making a standard color palette would help? It's kinda like another chicken or egg paradox; everyone seems to say the problems will be caused by the solution designed to fix those very problems. Can't somebody just whip up some colors, name them, and then have everyone vote or submit opinons on each of them? ("Should this color be: Brighter, Duller, Lighter, Darker, etc. or no change?") If somebody is really serious about it, they'd form a standards committee to come up with some colors. And if one guy complains that all or most of the colors are a shade or two too dark, then someone official from the committee can tell him to kick up the brightness on his computer monitor. (The poor guy probably thinks that BNSF colors are Brown and Black on his computer, and that it is always evening time in Montana.) I think what it's going to take to get a standard color palette is someone who is experienced at skinning (read: "not dispatcher618") to be bold and just say that UP Yellow is "such-and-such RGB mix." Obviously there will be those who will disagree, but if an intelligent discussion ensues, then I'm sure a standard would eventually be reached. I think for the most part that a lot of other people won't complain too much, and if the color generally looks like what it claims to be, then it can be used as a base coat of paint. Once that basic standardized color has been used, then all us skinners can have a hey-day weathering over it. Also, just because a standard exists, doesn't mean you have to use it, but it'd be nice to have to save you from the headaches of matching that Pennsy Maroon. I'll go back to my original argument that color standardization will keep rolling stock looking like it came out of the same paint shop, and belongs to the same railroad (after all, there is Pullman Green, NP Green, BN Green, etc.) As mentioned- different photo references are used, individual computers are color calibrated differently, and each user is going to have his or her own perception of the color in general. Take some of those variables out, and at least all the equipment will match when seen together in the same consist. (It might ALL have the red stripe too bright, or too dark, or whatever, but at least it ALL matches.)

Ironically, the railroad I work for has passenger equipment representing three different variations of red- faded housepaint red, autobody paint dark red, and autobody paint bright red...... and yes, it drives me nuts. We're slowly fixing that though as time and money becomes available.

- DISPATCHER 618

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NO, you are still not taking into account of weathering, different batches of paint, and paint application techniques. I have seen paint that was supposed to be the exact match vary. My brother-in-law has had the exact same problem with paint for the custom cars\kit cars he builds.A little variation relives the boredom. Have you ever been railside when a train comes along? Unless the engines are all brand new, there are no 2 with the exact same color.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.com

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All I can say is feel free to develope the parameters to which the standard is set to, nothing against you personally but the complexities are enormous, about the best you can do is set a baseline codeing arrangement for the colors, but then people will adjust them to thier liking forcing you to try and match thier resultant color, which comes full circle to that we have to do now. Sorry I cannot be of more help, thats just the way it is.
John

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Well, What I was thinking was something like this...This is a sampling of my "basic" palette:Orhttp://tkw.tzo.com/BasicColor.htm <-- Less Permanent <--- May Change.
Pete Willard
http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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What I usually do if I want something to match or get a good idea of the color is I will use TGA tool to open up the ace files from a locomotive/car that I want to match and convert the file to a .bmp file. Then I open up the .bmp file in PSP and use the color dropper to sample the color off of the example .bmp.

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I agree with the others here. That would be VERY hard to do. montior settings aside, trying to find the "perfect" railroad color is darn near impossible. When i paint trains i almost always get "swatches" of colors from real photos. I try to pick a median color shade between the lightest and darkest shades of that color in that image. It usually works out well but sometimes may require darkening or lightening to match the color of a new unit. i never try to match weathered loco colors, but rather choose "weathering colors" such as colors for soot, rust, dust, grease, streaks, etc. I have several colors for rr's since i have painted so many liveries, and if you would like, i could post "swatches" of the colors i use for an rr and then label them such as "rio grande gold", etc. if you want something to work off of or a starting point i can post "color swatches" from repaints i did of various rr colors if you'd like me toHauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

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Its baaaaack! Check out www.badger-airbrush.com. Under the Modelflex paint lsiting they have a railroad color chart available from their site. It has potential to address this issue.GH

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