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First of all I want to thank Rich Garber for allowing me an early peek at his latest update to the Ohio Route.....It should be out very shortly by the way.
Secondly, there has been a lot of new routes that have come out recently and all of them are excellent in their own way, one that comes to mind is the Arizona-San Diego one which has magnificent views and scenery........but many of them are betas and not complete.....so I can't prejudge them.......
Finally, and I say this having downloaded every route here, the free ones that is, there is no better route, if you want a complete route, if you want an activity route, if you want a scenic route, if you want a believable route than the Ohio Rail.......and this newest version about to come out is even that much better than the last......it is incredible.....Again, Rich, you have proven yourself the master of route building.......
Anyway, here are a few screenshots of my Appalachia Rail in the newest section coming with update 9.......Tim
The Spur Line
http://tahunter.net/thespurline
Appalachia RR

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Shot of Ohio Rail update 9 [View All], zhivago47, 07:23 PM, Jul-19-02, (0) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, ssw, Jul-19-02, 07:46 PM, (1) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, rgarber, Jul-19-02, 08:51 PM, (2) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, jfroth1, Jul-20-02, 07:58 PM, (3) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, lincolnzoo, Jul-20-02, 09:28 PM, (4) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, sniper297, Jul-20-02, 10:36 PM, (5) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, rgarber, Jul-21-02, 00:12 AM, (6) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, sniper297, Jul-21-02, 00:37 AM, (7) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, rgarber, Jul-21-02, 01:13 AM, (9) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, kazba, Jul-21-02, 01:56 AM, (10) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, rgarber, Jul-21-02, 02:30 AM, (11) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, chucksc, Jul-21-02, 03:09 PM, (13) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, rgarber, Jul-21-02, 03:56 PM, (14) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, patm41, Jul-21-02, 01:09 AM, (8) RE: Shot of Ohio Rail update 9, GaryH2, Jul-21-02, 08:20 AM, (12)

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Rich, tim, or anyone who knows-
Will there be smaller d/l'able update? Or will I have to download the whole shooting match again? Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas




1938 Hiawatha with F7 Steam locomotive. Used by permission from http://www.geocities.com/skytop45

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You're gonna hate me.I didn't just update the 'bodiddly' by adding the extenstion. I also increased the scenery between Dale and Bristol and I made significant changes elsewhere too. I plan to keep moving up and down the previous parts of the route changing things (hopefully improving them) which I'm sure will probably lead to major pineapple bashing here on these forums.I develope new techniques as I do more. To me, the route is like my own model railroad, so I go back and redo areas over and over. So in some respects the old parts of the route will have a new look. Anything improved upon this way has to be included in the new installs which invariably means even if I did do a patch upgrade, it would be pretty large.Another reason I don't like patches is I'm not a methodical person. I do things on a whim. Now take David Klemm (the ICU route guy). He's methodical. He's organized. And, he's a nice guy. Now take Jim Ward... PLEASE!!! Just kidding. I just couldn't resist. Patch upgrades are great for someone who plan things ahead of time. The Florence to Cambridge extension was never planned and because of it, there is nothing in Build #8 to lay a foundation for such an upgrade. So it works best for me to just make you all mad and be really annoying by making you download the whole thing all over again.The good news is I am on purposely holding the route back from being downloaded for at least 2 years so the dial-uppers can recover from having had to download Build #8. Okay, it won't really be 2 years but the way the loco people keep imploding in the other forums, even if it was just a week from now I don't think there will be anybody left in this place to download it!Rich Garber

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Hmmm... sounds like even my gray hair will be almost gone by the time update 9 is uploaded!
Looking forward to it though, as always Rich. Fine stuff you craft.
John Roth

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I'll be here. Love your route.

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Loco people are sensitive artists, Rich. Hairy tough guys who battle the route editor don't run off whimpering with our tails between our legs just cuz somebody barked at us. So we'll still be around to download it, gonna take nukes to drive us out!
Funny about that methodical stuff, I got an email from a guy I'm still trying to figure out how to answer.
"I'm wondering if you can tell me about the industries. I'm assuming that the route is base on a story of a rail road and the customers it serves."
Wrong assumption, it just sorta growed while I was fiddling around with it. Adding names for industries and connections between them was an afterthought.
I don't even have a name for this town yet, let alone any idea what a huge yard like that would have as it's purpose. (Running trains thru, duh!) And then you invent some kinda excuse for it all.You'll get a kick outta this, "I didn't like East Metro or Ohio and West Virginia, but PO&N hits the spot!"
Different strokes for different folks, I still like your scenery a lot better than mine, and I'm hacking like crazy to try and catch up. Jealous? You bet, but only for a while - I'm gonna leave you in the dust!

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Well you got the nail right on the head cause I don't understand the loco folks or end users too sometimes. I say they are all truly loco! We lose people because of the route editor, and they lose people just by criticizing each other's curtains. Back in the old days (just before the war), the route design forum was the only active forum. Most folks couldn't swing that $3000 price tag of whatever that software was so they tried route building. Then when they got the software to where they could build models they tell us how admirable we are for route building when there's no way they can and look down their noses at us to boot! They build models with programs that don't even include the run of the mill ornery unreliable MSTS editors and then demand we route builders provide user friendly automated installs with smaller mistake free less hard drive taking up space routes with maps and activities fully perfected and documented which are now to be accompanied with fully documented walk-thrus as well as spell checked grammar checked integrity checked activity descriptions, install texts, troubleshooting pages, refreshments and a customer support service rivaling HP and then tell us are routes are not worth the even price of MSTS.Makes your day doesn't it?Am I exaggerating here!!?? LOL!Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-02 AT 00:38 AM (EDT)

I told you a hundred million billion gazillion times already, I never exaggerate.
Actually, altho there are a few that seem to think somebody owes them something for logging into the file library, they're mostly just plain ignorant.
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/10520.html
I don't think the original poster or the second guy understood that NALW was not an actual corporation, but to my way of thinking these kind of posts are actually rare when you consider the thousands of forum members. It's not like you gotta take an IQ test to get in, all you gotta do is register, so you're bound to get a few that just don't get it.
Anyway, back on topic, looking good, for chrissakes slow down a little, will ya? I'm trying to catch up! Guess one of these days I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and become a DEMocrat!

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Would you believe I have some well intentioned folks asking me to start a new route? I actually have but I'm not saying anymore about it because I keep forgetting I did start a new route every time I go to work on a route. Chances are it will never get done. I think THAT route has proven to me that there are routes I do not want to do. But I was just having some fun encapsulating all that I heard at various times. I thought it was just funny to ramble on like that. I didn't really mean none of it. You'd be surprise how much DEMs make route building lots faster. It's also easier on the mind to not have to envision eveything. For instance, many times the terrain after DEMming will dictate what kind of stuff you need to put down in an area. It's fun too if you freelance like I did because instead of maps telling you where you have to put track, you decide for yourself. It's kinda of like railroad tycooning an area.I'll send ya something to look at in the email.Rich Garber

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Rich,>You'd be surprise how much DEMs make route building lots faster. It's >also easier on the mind to not have to envision eveything. For >instance, many times the terrain after DEMming will dictate what kind >of stuff you need to put down in an area.I read this paragraph and my response is "REALLY???????" That would be great if that is the case. I just finished downloading all of the necessary DEMs for my route and very soon I'll be hitting the Route Geometry Extractor to get the basic terrain that I need. Using your handy-dandy route building guide I should be able to figure out how to MicroDEM and then DEMEX the actual terrain onto the flat terrain, or at least know where I need to go to find out. It's after this point that I picture having to either completely rearrange the terrain to make the track plan fit, having to severely edit the track itself, or both. However, if what you've said is the truth, then importing actual terrain will save me some building time. Maybe not a whole lot, but some.Matt

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"That would be great if that is the case"Matt,That was me talking to Jim Ward. If I be talking to most folks, including you, I'd tell them to stay away from the route editor. Period. The RE has left more dead routes in its wake than I care to discuss. If you want my advice, then I'll tell you to do a 1 tile route before you do anything. Most folks have made the mistake of diving into the RE and then losing their hard work on their beloved route. We'll see if you cross the finish line or end up in the route grave yard. Don't take this personally I don't mean this in a mean way. Good luck to ya.

Rich Garber

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-02 AT 03:15 PM (EDT)

Thanks Rich/Jim....
We all (NALW) decided to come over here and hang out with the real men (Route Developers)....
I like the peace and quiet...
Don't worry about the lack of installers.....
I've looked at it and as near as I can figure Clickteam would be building 100mb downloads to "auto-install" a route....
Looks like with Route-Riter and the Stuff-it Bat file you are about as far along as you are going to be for a while.....
Though I have to admidt that the installer that Rich used on version 8 (or is that build 93?) is pretty slick and was wondering when the rest of you would tumble to that system and start using it....And you're right there is not a chance in h*ll that I could make anything with the Route Editor...
Been there done that (Trying to Fix NEC stuff around Washington Union Station - as usual Kuju wasn't even close - it warms the cockles of my heart to see they scr*wed you guys as bad as they did us over in the mechanical engineering dept - at least they're consistant) and was a dismal failure...
Must be my short attention span (measured in hours not weeks - LOL)
You guys keep building them nice and we'll be more than happy to build stuff to run on them....Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

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The installer I use is a $200 purchase ( www.setupbuilder.com ). I bought it for my commercial software I sell a couple of years ago. I asked Freidrich Linder if he could do a cut down version to make it easier for folks to do the installs I do. This is a pretty massive program I use and I really don't understand too much about it. My routes and tutorials have given me a reason to use it more.I should clairify my sentiments from the above to the newbie fella. It's not that route building is so hard. It's actually pretty easy. But it is very comprehensive and very long. It's the same as model railroading. There is not just one area of model railroading to learn. There's the painting, and the detailing, and the wiring, and now DCC, and then there's the carpentry, etc. etc. The route editor is the same thing. The extra curricular stuff like installers and what goes wrong on somebody else's system compounds the learning curve. But to build a route isn't difficult at all. It maybe more time consuming and take more observation to make a pretty route, but it still isn't hard. Okay, there are the times when working with ffedit makes you wonder what planet the Kuju people really come from but I would say if they fixed the thing instead of waiting for msts 2, many of us would be saddened for lack of things to complain about.One thing I would like to add to this discussion is it's easier to critique a locomotive than it is a route. The route has the luxury of miles. If something goes right in a mile or so, that impression lasts on the user. If something goes wrong, and isn't too badly wrong, that impression won't last because the user is more forgiving just because completed routes are scarce. Locomotives being much much smaller are much more easily observable and hence less time is needed to formulate an opinion. Plus nobody has a book they can look up my route and say to me I got it wrong. After all, no sooner than they do, I can resort to the proverbial, it's fictional. The other thing that makes route designers a strong community is none of us 'know it all.' I just learned something the other day from Mike (PRR route) that he read Sniper saying. It was pretty important and if I had tried some earlier projects I had thought about doing, I'd be a sad person today. And I have an email from David Klemm that I keep locked in a vault. It's an email on how to get my world files compressed. Can't lose that puppy. Route building like the other aspects of railroading require an appreciation of history. I think that draws a certain type to.Just talkin' is all. Rich Garber

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hey you telling it like it is !!!! keep going !!!Patm41

Maglev Route Designer
Casino Express

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I agree! I have quite enjoyed Ohio Rail day after day! Its great!Well done Mr. Garber and company!Ditto to PO&N and all the extraordinary routes out there!GaryH

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