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So frustrated with signals

So frustrated with signals – image 1

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Charter Member · 137 posts

I can't even get interval signals to work. I have a section of track with 2 passing sidings one after the other. I have a player service going east and an AI service going west. Before the AI train ever gets to the center block separating the passing blocks the interval signal for the player service turns red even though the block ahead is totally clear.If anyone ever figures out how to make these work "as real as it gets" lemme know please. Or if someone can explain it to a moron, that'd be great too.. ArtIt seems simple to me. If the next block is clear, the signal should be some other color than red right?

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So frustrated with signals [View All], crow357, 07:50 PM, Feb-10-02, (0) RE: So frustrated with signals, bobs, Feb-10-02, 08:07 PM, (1) RE: So frustrated with signals, Daylighter, Feb-10-02, 08:32 PM, (2) RE: So frustrated with signals, crow357, Feb-10-02, 08:45 PM, (3) RE: So frustrated with signals, sniper297, Feb-10-02, 09:31 PM, (4) RE: So frustrated with signals, SilverFox, Feb-11-02, 03:56 PM, (5) RE: So frustrated with signals, sniper297, Feb-11-02, 11:01 PM, (6) RE: So frustrated with signals, bobs, Feb-12-02, 04:09 PM, (7) RE: So frustrated with signals, sniper297, Feb-12-02, 05:51 PM, (8) RE: So frustrated with signals, Daylighter, Feb-12-02, 06:40 PM, (9) RE: So frustrated with signals, bobs, Feb-15-02, 03:50 PM, (12) RE: So frustrated with signals, SilverFox, Feb-15-02, 02:40 PM, (10) RE: So frustrated with signals, bobs, Feb-15-02, 03:45 PM, (11)

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Charter Member · 654 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

It isn't always quite that simple.It would depend on how your paths are set up (using the passing sidings or staying on the main or having the passing sidings as alternate paths) as well as the set of scripts running the signals.You have to consider absolute blocks, that is, the block between two absolute signals. Absolute signals are the only ones that can force a train to stop. Intermediates don't, even when red. The dispatcher can't (shouldn't) drop a red signal in front of a train without the proper sequence of yellows before the red. So, in your example, if the train came into existence (as AI trains can do) closer to the player train than the number of signals it takes to run the sequence, it is possible that the dispatcher would give the AI train priority and make your signal red. Again, depends on the scripts and on the logic of the AI, something we have not totally figured out!

Bob Siederer
Co-author of Marias Pass 3.0

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Charter Member · 170 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

This situation can also occur if your signal sensor "pyramid" is placed directly on a switch. If this is the case, the signal will change to red as soon as the train "steps on" the switch.I've been working signal issues for the past few weeks myself and finally think I have a handle on it.I logged on just now to start a new thread to gain confirmation on a few issues when I found your post. I will post my stuff now and you may find it of some help as well.

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Charter Member · 137 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

Ok, guys, I'll take a look. Yeah, I'm very careful not to put the triangle on a switch.

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Charter Member · 3834 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

I'm having a tough time coming up with old stuff, since the links are changed when something gets archived, and the "search which fields" for author or subject filter don't seem to work for me, I get everything regardless. Anyway, here's the latest links to my past hacking;http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2386&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2444&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/2595.html
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/2670.html
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/3073.htmlNote that some of the links in those links don't work since they were archived, but since they're all repeated for the current correct links here it don't matter.
Few notes:
1. Interlockings don't do anything but display red in an activity unless there is an active path going thru them in the proper direction to activate them, and they only work once for each path run.
2. Intervals usually work correctly, sometimes they need to be activated by driving thru them once. I have one between Stevens Point and Armstrong that's usually steady yellow at the activity start, and usually won't show green until I drive thru it once and reverse.
3. Intervals show:
a. Occupation state of the next block.
c. State of the signal at the other end of the block. If the block is clear but the next in line signal is red due to a switch thrown against it, the first signal will be yellow instead of green. Which brings us to;
c. Obstacles to the path ahead over the next 3 blocks. That includes the end of the track, and a switch set against you. In the following illustration, there are no trains on the tracks, the signals are only reacting to the fact that the path would trace to the switch at the far right, which is in it's default state of straight ahead, therefore constituting an "obstacle" to the path. If this switch was set for the curve, and there were at least 3 more interval signals to the right of it, between it and the end of the track or the next switch set against the path, all signals would be green since that constitutes a clear path for 3 blocks.So frustrated with signals – image 2In figure 1, I place a signal. The switch to the right of the signal set against it is an obstacle, so since it can't trace a clear path to another signal to the right, it indicates red.In figure 2, I place another signal to the right of the first one, which shows red since it can't trace a clear path to another signal to the right. The first signal on the far left now sees another signal, checks it's state which is red, and returns steady yellow.In figure 3 I place another signal between the first two and the offending switch-set-against-me, all the above applies, third signal red cuz no clear path to a signal to the right, second signal goes from red to yellow, first signal now flashing yellow.Figure 4 fixes it, at the cost of having a ridiculous number of interval signals. The fourth and last signal on the far right is red, you already know why. The third signal is now steady yellow cuz it sees another signal to it's right, the second sees the third is yellow and shows flashing yellow, the first one on the far left now sees a flashing yellow, and since that isn't steady yellow, red, or absent, that fulfills all the qualifications to return green. Halleleuiah. Somebody say I BELIEVE!I'm still experimenting with them, but it appears that one way around using enough signals to make it look like a runway for Close Encounters spaceships is to use the North American switchstand set, since the switchstands act like "advisory" signals and change the sequencing of the intervals, so it don't automatically return red for a switch set against it when that switch is linked to a switchstand signal.
Worth a try.

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Charter Member · 105 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

Sniper,
I'm trying to get the hang of signals. I've read most of the past posts on the subject and probably understand half of it but it is gradually beginning to sink in.
The last post above is one of the clearest descriptions but can you clarify a few points for me.
Am I right in thinking that your comments apply only to the standard BNSF signals with the standard scripts or does it apply to the modified signals and scripts as used on MP3?How would you set up the paths in the activity editor to get 2 trains (player +AI)travelling in opposite directions to pass on the siding you have drawn above and for the signals to work as (god) intended?
In particular,in the path editor would you define a passing path, or use alternate route, for the player train, the AI train, none or both?
Do you advise making all the AI train paths drivable?
I usually end up with one train passing OK but the other stuck at a red signal which will not clear, even if it is the player train which is supposed to have priority.
I apologise in advance if these questions are old hat
-John

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Charter Member · 3834 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

I don't think any questions about signals are old hat, John, I've been on this forum since the beginning, and when I finally got around to doing signals (you'll notice there aren't any in PO&N4, altho I started to TRY to add them in version 3!) there were no "experts" around to answer questions!
There still aren't any experts, most people that have gotten signals to work learned by trial and error and aren't 100% sure exactly what they did to make them work (unless they actually DO know and they're just holding out on us!), and a lot of the routes with signals on them only work "the way god intended" if the activity is written a certain way. That's been my biggest problem all along, trying to understand the incestuous relationship between the signal setup on the route and the activity editor. Long haired wizard set up some activities for PO&N4 with AI traffic with no signals at all, so it is possible.
I haven't seen MP3 yet, Bob would probably be able to answer that question better, but my experience has been;
1. The SignalNumClearAhead value in the sigcfg.dat file affects how many interlocking signals ahead of each train are activated, or "tickled awake" as I call it, so they show something other than red.
2. Interval signals might be affected by SignalNumClearAhead, but I'm not really sure how, and the above behavior still applies to intervals. I think I changed that value to 1 once just to see what it would do, and got green lights that should have been red. So I really don't know, I'll have to experiment more with it. There is a "flashing red" entry for "BNSF3LightA", which is supposedly the script for the interval, but I don't know how that works either.
3. HAL9000 (AI dispatcher) sets the switches for the paths X number of signals ahead of each train, the value of X IS affected by the SignalNumClearAhead value.
4. If the "player drivable path" box is not checked for the AI train, #3 is irrelevant, HAL just sets up the entire path start-to-finish for an AI train at the moment of spawning. My AI trains are set in the activity editor for "expected performance" (for the AI service, not the player service) of 25 to 30. This is APPARENTLY (again, nobody seems to know otherwise) the only way to control AI train speed, these values give me a more realistic 15 to 20 mph for the various 2dash937oil, gp3817mixed, 2dash940mixed, etc., consists. At those speeds the signals obviously need to be closer together, or the player will be waiting half an hour at a signal waiting for a train that's many miles, but only a few signals, away. Which leads to;
5. AI trains don't stop for any red interval signals. Interval signals are supposed to be 3 different types, but with or without the number plates and gradient tags they're permissive, "stop and proceed" is meaningless, just blow right thru them, and since the speed restriction for a red inteval is 20 mph and my AI trains are already below that they don't even slow down for a red interval.
I couldn't tell you about anything but BNSF signals since that's all I've played with (I live next to the former C&NW Galena line on the West Side of Chicago, and that's the signal type they use), and I'm not using them the way they're supposed to be used anyway. So the above diagram don't apply to the PO&N, since the AI trains always take the curve, the player always takes the straight (the default "at rest" position of the automatic switches), and the player path is only long enough to get started, and don't actually go onto the mainline at all. Once on the main, he's on his own, has to manually set the manual switches for different branches, and yield right-of-way to AI traffic, which has priority. Here's a section of the town of Sundermeyer;So frustrated with signals – image 3
AI path is purple, player path is red. the player path starts in the engine house at left, and an end point is placed on the yard lead to the right. The player main line is to the north, and in order to get there he has to cross over the AI path. The two auto switches are back-to-back left turnouts (seperated by a 10 meter straight), so altho it looks like the AI path is going straight, it actually comes in thru the curve and leaves thru the curve. After he passes, both switches return to the at-rest straight position. "HAL" won't set any switches for the player to go up there, since the player path don't go up there. So the player has to drive to manual switch 2, set it for the curve, and reverse thru it. Check the signal, if either auto switch is set curved instead of straight one of the signals will be red. If neither is red, he drives thru.So frustrated with signals – image 4
Here's the setup for the crossover, the "dwarf" signals are standard interval signals with the poles buried up to the heads. This avoids confusion about which red signals are OK to run, and also relieves the visual effect of having so many signals so close together that it looks like a forest of signal poles. On the right is a standard BNSF interlocking with the second head enabled and linked to the curved, or "diverge path", of the far auto switch. Just ahead of the engine (sitting on manual switch #2) is a kitbashed abomination made from a BNSF gantry-mount interval placed on the pole of the distant searchlight signal from Hank's NA switchstand set. The distant signal is linked to the straight track on the far auto switch, so it will show red if that's curved. The interval signal will show red when the near switch is set against it, it shows yellow if manual switch #1 is set against it, and green if manual switch #1 is set for the curve. That's the purpose of the two "dwarf" signals between the two auto switches, to prevent this signal and the one on the opposite end from indicating red if the far manual switch is set against it.So frustrated with signals – image 5
Here's the problem with answering "how do I set up signals" questions. The distant signal was made to return green for the exit it's linked to, and yellow for the switch thrown to the unlinked exit, since it's intended as an advisory signal. I hacked Hank's file to make it return green or red instead of green or yellow, since with my particular peculiar setup, any auto switch thrown for the curve is a stop order for the player this is showing that the far auto switch is set curved, therefore has to be considered an absolute stop by the player. The upper signal hasn't changed yet, so this is an opposing meet, the switch window shows the near auto switch is still straight.So frustrated with signals – image 6
The advancing path of the AI train now sets the near switch curved (switch window), so the upper interval goes red, since it can no longer trace a path to another signal. If the spacing of the signals beyond these are set up just right, the AI train should arrive within a few minutes or less.So frustrated with signals – image 7
After the AI train passes, both auto switches will reset to straight, which makes a clear path thru the auto switches for the player until the next AI train comes along. By the S-curve of the grain train, you can see that the AI train is not really going straight, but taking a double-curved path.
None of this works perfectly, but it does work. Unfortunately you're asking the wrong guy about the traditional way to set up signals, since my setup don't even come close to traditional. Normally you would use a double head interlocking to guard the entrance to the doubletrack sections, place intervals on the single track sections, and use all the "action event triggers" and "begin passing path" stuff in the activity editor to make the AI trains and the player follow a rigid schedule, the player also has to follow the path exactly the way it's layed out to make the interlockings work for him. I'm not sure if anyone has found a foolproof way to set up which train gets priority at a meet. In mine it's simple, the AI traffic always has priority, if the player is blocking an AI train and it has to stop, he'd better get out of the way and let it pass so they don't start stacking up behind each other and make a parade! The way mine are set up, I can't even place intervals on a single track section, or the player gets a green light to a cornfield meet. So no matter how long it is, every single track section between passing sidings is a single block. Not exactly a class 1 railroad!

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Charter Member · 654 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

I've got to agree with Sniper's comments. I don't think any of us fully understand the relationship between the AI and the signals. Way back when Jim Stevens was still around here, I asked him if he could get access to someone who knew the logic of the AI and could get a write up or something about it. That was the last we heard fromo Jim. I sure hope the question didn't have anything to do with his disappearance!In working the signals up for MP3.0, I tested and tested, but only on MP30. I'm pretty confident that they will show the correct aspects in the situations MP30 puts forth, but I can't say for sure that they will be 100% correct on some other track/signal configuration. So much of what I learned was by trial and error and staring at the screen that I've got to believe there are still bugs in my scripts.I increased the NumClearBlocksAhead to 6 because a test interlocking I set up caused trains to wait at both ends. Setting it to 6 fixed the problem, so I increased ALL of the values to 6 for all signal types, didn't have further problems, and left it alone. I didn't do any further testing to see what affect this had on switches thrown ahead etc. In watching runs through the Activity Editor though, I have seen intermediate signals turn green only when a train enters the block they are on, not 6 blocks ahead. Increasing the value to 6 also seems to have eliminated the corn field meets where a train enters an absolute block from both ends, unaware that one is coming the other way. But, I suspect that if there were more intermediate signals in the way, this problem would still exist. As I said, I didn't get a chance to test that.I also didn't know about the Player Drivable checkbox's effect on switches on a path. This might be why I could never get Whitefish Local #4 fixed up. I'll have to go back and try that one again.

Bob Siederer
Co-author of Marias Pass 3.0

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Charter Member · 3834 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

All your fault, Bob. Poor old JS is sitting in a rubber room at Shady Rest Programmer's Rehab, getting blasted with 20 CCs of Thorazine every time he starts babbling about signal "logic".
It took me quite a while to figure out that checkbox thingie, but even with that it's a problem. If the player's path intersects with the AI path anywhere on the route, the AI path stops advancing at that point until the player passes, even if it's at the very end of his path and he's not gonna get there for 2 hours. That's why I did away with the player path entirely, I know there's supposed to be a way to assign priorites in the activity editor, but I didn't want to wind up in a rubber room too.
What is drastically needed, and seems to be impossible, is a signal script for interval signals that's completely independent of switch position, and interlockings that are always active and independent of the paths. The techdocs describe some kind of "end of track" signal that's supposed to fix the interval indications, but I've never seen the signal they're talking about, and it wouldn't change the fact that the interval shows red for a siding even if the block is empty and the far switch is set against it.
PO&N5 is gonna be a testbed for my screwy signal system, by the time 6 comes out I hope to figure out why I sometimes get yellow when the next signal on the path the switch is set for is green, and on another siding with the exact same configuration it works properly. And sometimes the interval shows yellow, drive thru it and reverse, now it's green. Overrun a red signal and stop blocking the switch, the double head interlock for the AI train is still green, crash bang boom. You have to keep going until the back of your train clears the switch before his signal turns red to indicate that block is now occupied. Another siding, identical setup, as soon as your engine crosses the trip his signal goes red. Going from single to double track, stop with the back of your train sticking out onto the single track, that stops AI traffic dead. Back and forth all you want, until the back end of the train clears the switch it won't throw for the AI. Uncouple, and now you have a new "back of train", so the part of the train still blocking the switch is now a loose consist, and the switch will throw underneath it. I'm sure some of that has to do with the way the triangles are facing on the signals beyond the signals controlling the switches, but phase of the moon may also be a major factor!

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Charter Member · 170 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-02 AT 06:44 PM (EST)I have a differing theory on the following:>1. The SignalNumClearAhead value in the
>sigcfg.dat file affects how many
>interlocking signals ahead of each
>train are activated, or "tickled
>awake" as I call it,
>so they show something other
>than red. I think the value of SigNumClear Ahead determines how many blocks ahead of the signal are checked for occupancy before the signal defaults to its' normal state and then updates itself depending upon what the next signal is displaying.>2. Interval signals might be affected
>by SignalNumClearAhead, but I'm
>not really sure how, and
>the above behavior still applies
>to intervals. I think I
>changed that value to 1
>once just to see what
>it would do, and got
>green lights that should have
>been red. So I really
>don't know, I'll have to
>experiment more with it. I did this too. In my installation I have found no difference in the permissive signals operation with this value set anywhere from 1-6, and in reading the tech doc's it suggests that this value only effects "normal" signal types, whatever that means. I have not explored that further yet.>3. HAL9000 (AI dispatcher) sets the
>switches for the paths X
>number of signals ahead of
>each train, the value of
>X IS affected by the
>SignalNumClearAhead value.
>4. If the "player drivable path"
>box is not checked for
>the AI train, #3 is
>irrelevant, HAL just sets up
>the entire path start-to-finish for
>an AI train at the
>moment of spawning.
I have not been able to confirm any of that either. I have my activities set up with two paths one for each set of opposing traffic, I am the only train on one path, and have 5 trains on the opposing, Each path is set up to take the right hand passing siding and both are checked as player drivable. I always have to stop unless the opposing train beats me to the siding. Even when I know it is clear to the next siding by many minutes, I get the stop first. >5. AI trains don't stop for
>any red interval signals. Interval
>signals are supposed to be
>3 different types, but with
>or without the number plates
>and gradient tags they're permissive,
>"stop and proceed" is meaningless,
>just blow right thru them,
>and since the speed restriction
>for a red inteval is
>20 mph and my AI
>trains are already below that
>they don't even slow down
>for a red interval. I concur with that and in addition, If my fast AI trains get a red permissive, they slow to the restricted speed and you will wait on them to arrive forever - but that is normal since it can only happen if they are following another train to closely and that is a timing problem for the activity writer. Having AI trains follow to closely can hold a single track mainline for a loooooooong time.
I think the one thing we need to be able to do is set the SigNumClearAhead values for the Absolute signals individually, as a fixed value may result in never getting a green if they are "looking" to far ahead past another unoccupied siding to an occupied block farther up.But I'm still playing with this theory and would like to know if the abolute signals may actually ignore the existence of permissive that are placed up ahead and only "count" other absolutes within the range of the SigNumClear Ahead value.

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Charter Member · 654 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

About your answer to #2...
"Normal" signals is one possible value for the SIGFN parameter in the configuration file. "SIGFN_values. Describe the function of a particular signal head. Only SIGFN_NORMAL signal heads will require a train to take action (e.g. to stop). The other values act only as categories for signal types to belong to." Possible values are NORMAL, DISTANCE, REPEATER, SHUNTING, INFO. (From the "How to edit a signal configuration file" techdoc. I would add that only Normal-types show up on the Track Monitor.In the tests I wrote up the other day, there was a difference in the number of blocks activated ahead of my train with the numblocks value set at 2 or 6, so it does do something!

Bob Siederer
Co-author of Marias Pass 3.0

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Charter Member · 105 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

Sniper,
Thanks for answering my queries in such depth. I need to read it a few times along with the rest of this thread.I've been looking at the way signals are done in a variety of routes and noticed that some routes just use block signalling, no interlocking signals at the switches.The Japanese Tokyo Hakone route doesn't appear to have interlocking signals and some of the shareware routes are like this.
I thought was odd that some routes use the BNSF single head interlocking signal throughout as an interval signal, because I thought that the 2 types had totally different functions, and that interlocking signals had nothing to do with block occupancy. When you look at the script for the interlocking signal you can see that it can also be used as an interval signal. When I set up a small test track with just the absolute signals as interval signals I found that I did get some protection from following AI trains - they (sometimes) obeyed the red signal and didn't plough into the rear-end of the player train.
The JP3 light signal seems to be even more reliable as an interval signal, maybe this is why some of the European route designers use it on their routes.
As i'm writing this the PO&N v5 is downloading so I think i'll just go and drive trains and look at your signals .
Cheers,
John

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Charter Member · 654 posts

RE: So frustrated with signals

An interlocking signal and an absolute signal are the same thing. Same for interval/permissive. There are really only two types. It is the placement/usage that determines what name they might have.Using all permissives would be prototypical IF you were designing something to run under Automatic Block Signaling. Essentially, that means only one way traffic on a given track, so the signals only need to space trains, not control interlockings. Commuter lines are often like this, as are some multi-tracked freight lines. You can run traffic the "wrong way", but only with the dispatcher issuing a track warrant to you and making other traffic wait, despite what the signal might say. We can't do that in MSTS because of the AI traffic doesn't stop for a Stop and Proceed, it keeps going at restricted speed.

Bob Siederer
Co-author of Marias Pass 3.0

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