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LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-02 AT 07:45 AM (EDT) by Nels_Anderson (admin)

>Got both 483 and 487, plus the six D&RG pax cars. Now, can
>you point me to an available steam tutorial for driving
>these beautiful engines?OK Bill,
Quick steam driving tutorial.... and I mean a quick one... because in the real world it takes a little longer to learn how! measured in years not days...You will stall out on the original Marias Pass... that's because Kuju got it wrong and made the grades all too steep! and in the wrong places. OK heres How to drive the C&TSRR you can do it! it is possible I've had ten cow cars over the pass at just under road speed, with a single locomotive... but you do have to know what you're doing and practice it to achieve that.... Learning how in the real world requires a knowledge of the entire balancing act that is a steam locomotive. It's a constant battle between the elements of fire and water... OK lets get started.... First of all we'll be using the AI Fireman but WITHOUT!! Engineer (driver) controls being set to easy... If you set them to easy you will not be able to get the locomotive to perform well enough to do it.1) Drop the locomotive into forward gear.. at about 50% cutoff...2) Release the brakes... (this takes a litle time to do as the reservoir takes time to apply the pressure to all the brake cylinders.. 3) Sound your whistle to warn people that you're about to move...4) Open the regulator (throttle) to about 40% and wait till it starts to bite... you might find that you need to put the sanders on to stop the wheels slipping (X) key!5) Open the throttle a bit more and your train should start to accellerate... If it doesn't you may need to drop the reverser a litle further forwards...6) once you have the train moving close the cylinder cocks.. (C)Key. They may look pretty on the outside but they also restrict your power output by bleeding steam off the cylinders... They're there to clear the condensate that forms at the hot steam hits the cooler metal cylinder.... once the metal warms up you don't need them to be open.7) OK we got the train moving... Now we need to reduce the amount of steam we are using to keep it moving... Steam expands in the cylinder and at the moment we are not really using it eficiently... SO.. what we do is bring the reverser back a bit towards the centre position... (this is called notching up, or reducing cutoff).8) Reduce the cutoff to about 35% to 40% once you reach about 15Mph... what this does is alter the point at which the valves that control entry of steam to the cylinders, close... Allowing the steam more time to expand and getting more work from the steam that we put in there...(9) You might need to open the regulator (throttle) a little to increase the pressure that is actually getting to the cylinders.....It's now a balancing act between the regulator and the reverser to get the best performance at the lowest steam usage rate... Your AI fireman can't always keep up and there are times when the pressure will drop... this is because you are using more steam than the boiler can generate at a given time...... The K-36 is a very efficient engine and can cope with most circumstances making the crew job easier.... but it is a steam engine and they are tempramental... You have to coach them and badger them and talk to them to get them up the grades..... It takes practice to get it right...If the grade gets more severe you might need to put the reverser a little further forwards or increase the throttle a bit!! but whatch your boiler pressure.. as it drops you will lose power.. all I can say to you now is practice practice and more practice is the only way to do it! The more you do it the more you will learn about how the locomotive performs and what to do when it doesn'tHope that helps!Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy the Bear)

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Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecline) [View All], FozzyBear, 01:13 AM, Sep-12-02, (0) RE: Qick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecli, nscaler73, Sep-12-02, 02:17 AM, (1) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, WestSlopeRRfan, Sep-12-02, 09:37 AM, (2) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, FozzyBear, Sep-12-02, 10:32 AM, (3) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, hotmetal2, Sep-12-02, 01:25 PM, (4) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, FozzyBear, Sep-12-02, 03:50 PM, (5) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, hotmetal2, Sep-13-02, 05:49 AM, (8) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, FozzyBear, Sep-13-02, 09:07 AM, (9) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, wecline, Sep-12-02, 09:06 PM, (6) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, FozzyBear, Sep-13-02, 01:47 AM, (7) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, wecline, Sep-13-02, 09:49 AM, (10) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, ronzuk, Sep-13-02, 09:58 AM, (11) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, crick14a, Sep-13-02, 11:30 AM, (12) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, netmasteroc3, Sep-13-02, 11:32 AM, (13) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, DTA, Sep-13-02, 02:31 PM, (14) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, FozzyBear, Sep-13-02, 03:14 PM, (15) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, nw_fan, Sep-13-02, 11:26 PM, (16) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, ronzuk, Sep-14-02, 02:55 PM, (17) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, quaia, Sep-20-02, 09:30 AM, (18) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, quaia, Sep-20-02, 10:06 AM, (19) RE: Quick K-36 Driving Tutorial Requested By Bill (wecl, wecline, Sep-20-02, 03:31 PM, (20)

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Thank you Fozzy for the tutorial. I have no steam experiance under my belt. This I will print and more than likely use. I have ALWAYS choose to take charge of the more modern diesel locos. However, and I will say it again, However, since installing your beautiful and talented work, the K-36, I am getting more and more interested in the steamers. I used to live near both the C&TSRR and the Durango Silverton so I am a little more familiar with the K-36 class than any other steam loco.
I can't thank you enough for my new found love for steam.
Thanks................
nscaler

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Thanks Fozzy!!Some of us get used to pulling steam engines on flat grades and running diesels around that we haven't developed our steam skills. Your tutorial is exactly what we need.
I have learned alot trying to get 20 cars with two K-36's up the 4% grade on Marshall Pass. I stalled many times. Then I would get the boiler pressure up and be able to start a train on the 4% grade. You engine definately has some torque. I began to pay much more attention to the grade and the pressure rather than sticking my head out the window and taking pictures (screenshots) of the train.Thanks
Nick

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>I stalled many times. Then
>I would get the boiler pressure up and be able to start a
>train on the 4% grade. You engine definately has some
>torque. That's exactly how the real ones are designed... Lots of low speed power... It's in the relatively large cylinders attached to small driving wheels..... Small wheels = low speeds and high torque... They were built specifically to do the job you're doing with them. And I was determined from the outset that they should behave exactly as the real ones do... After getting it about right I handed over to Chris Lee who did the final tweaking and physics... He got them exactly where they should be on the power ratio's Glad you're finding the tutorial useful... That's exactly why I asked Nels to Anchor it for a while.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

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Once again a Big Thanks to Fozzy and all those who assisted.Students of the D&RGW ng may remember the shot taken on Tanglefoot curve showing a huge train that had been assembled from several "Hill Turns" out of Chama. Well now we can recreate that sceen!Hope my sceen shot up loads?Alan

Hotmetal

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>Hope my sceen shot up loads? It hasn't alan... if you can't figure it out, mail it over to me and I'll post it for you.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

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Trying my Tanglefoot screen shot again.Ok Julian, I figured it out this time, I closed the attach window too quickly.A question though, i am using 483 as a helper, Rio Grande style behind the train, but in front of the caboose, is there a way to make the helper produce a 60% regulator sound output?Alan

Hotmetal

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d81b3df66d03960.jpg

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That is indeed the classic Tanglefoot photograph!! Well done!!>A question though, i am using 483 as a helper, Rio Grande
>style behind the train, but in front of the caboose, is
>there a way to make the helper produce a 60% regulator sound
>output?Yes there is but it requires a modified helper locomotive.. we are working on that at the moment, and you will find that Steve (Timken) mentioned it in another thread. I hope that we can produce a utility that will allow you to switch the helper sound on or back to default on any particular locomotive... Bear with us on this one!! we'll egt it in the file library as soon as we can. Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

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I have a follow-up question, Mr. Bear.I am having difficulty understanding how steam locomotive brakes are handled.when searching the Web I see terms such as "release, running, first service, lap, service, emergency". However, on the K36 engines, the only terms I see for the train brake are: apply, Lap, and Released. For the loco brake, we have: apply, hold, and released.While running and anticipating a downhill grade where brakes will be needed, what are the steps to go through to apply sufficient braking to prevent a runaway train?Also, what is the braking procedure on a level grade when approaching and stopping at a station?I'm not looking for an explanation of how brakes work as much as simply learning when to use the various settings for the two brakes (apply, lap, release, hold) and in which sequence.Unfortunately, the MSTS handbook doesn't cover much for braking of steam locomotives.Thanks again.Bill

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-02 AT 02:18 AM (EDT)

>when searching the Web I see terms such as "release,
>running, first service, lap, service, emergency". Yup! that's a westinghouse brake stand...>However,
>on the K36 engines, the only terms I see for the train brake
>are: apply, Lap, and Released. For the loco brake, we have:
>apply, hold, and released.Yup! that's the simplified Microsoft Kuju brake stand... :O>While running and anticipating a downhill grade where brakes
>will be needed, what are the steps to go through to apply
>sufficient braking to prevent a runaway train? Move the brake into apply at just 1%... then immediately move it back into hold at maximum hold... that means the pressure won't have had time to drop but it will be almost ready to... hold will keep it there for a while... Then when you need it you can move the lever into apply till you have the amount of brake force you need then move it back to hold to keep that level of force. if you need slightly less brake force you can move it from hold to release and then back to hold again. The normal running position is in fact HOLD... when you release your brakes, after they have fully released you should move the brake lever back to the hold position... All hold does is to retain the same brake force that is applied at any given time. and by being in hold you have less distance to move the lever to get it into apply.In an absolute dire emergency you can in fact put the reverser into reverse and open the regulator (throttle) a bit... this is OK in MSTS but it's frowned on in the real world because it has a habit of blowing the gland packing out of the piston glands.... and mechanical damage is also not unknown when doing it, it does generate huge stress in the components... Unlike a diesel you can actually use this method and in switching operations with a light engine it's quite common to use it.>Also, what is the braking procedure on a level grade when
>approaching and stopping at a station? The proceedure I apply when braking for a station is to brake early and kill the speed out... then release and let the train run on to nearer the stopping point... move the lever back into apply for a short time as above then set it in hold.... this gives you more control when you do need to stop. Moving the lever in the range between apply and release is then normally the best way to stop where you want. This is the proceedure I apply in the real world, works well in MSTS too.My grandfather who was a driver (engineer) here in the UK always said that "Any idiot can drive a train, it's stopping it where you want it to stop that takes skill and practice."However! one thing to note... In the early US Railroad history, the policy in the last part of arrival was to apply some brake force on the train and pull in with the regulator open... as this kept the couplings taught. and you didn't then hard snap them while taking up the slack as you pulled away again!! (not that that's really a big problem in MSTS) That's why in all the old western films you hear the engine chug chug cuging as it pulls in. >I'm not looking for an explanation of how brakes work as
>much as simply learning when to use the various settings for
>the two brakes (apply, lap, release, hold) and in which
>sequence. OK You got it Bill!! There are other complexities to this that involve using the locomotive brake and the train brakes to help prevent coupling breaks happening and to reduce stresses.... but they really are beyound the scope of this reply, and you have now got the basics..... All I can say is again, now you have the proceedure, practice practice and more practice.... The brakes on the K-36 are actually slightly better than the ones on the real locomotives..... Try and remember how it was when you didn't know how to land an aircraft in flight simulator. Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

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Foz,Many thanks once again for your clear and concise response. A very big help to me!As for learning how to land a plane in FS, that was no sweat since my pilot career in the USAF prepared me for that. I just wish I had some time in a steam locomotive to prepare me for MSTS!Thanks again, Julian.Bill

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Julian, with all these great instructions, guidelines, and tutorials, we should all be ready to out and jump in a real steamer and go.. Great Job......... Thanks for all the effort and help to all of us..Ron,,Deland, FL

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My grandfather who was a driver (engineer) here in the UK always said that "Any idiot can drive a train, it's stopping it where you want it to stop that takes skill and practice."And he was spot on Julian with that statement, those Old Boys really
new there stuff, Garratts use to take 1500 tons from Toton to Brent with only Engine Brake and Brake Van for stopping that's what I call knowing the road..............Rich

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3a. <Cough> turn on bell.From the D&RGW rulebook at ghostdepot.com
30. The bell must be rung when an engine is about to move and while approaching and passing stations, tunnels, snow sheds and public crossings at grade. Unless of course you want your e-pink slip for the digital Road Foreman.

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Something I have never got, though I play steam quite a lot, what is the J key small compressor for?. I know the ESE wont start rolling if it isn't on, but what does it do?David

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>Something I have never got, though I play steam quite a lot,
>what is the J key small compressor for?. I know the ESE wont
>start rolling if it isn't on, but what does it do? The two brake systems are independant of each other and are driven from a separate compressor and resrevioir the reason the ESE won't move is that as far as I know the ESE starts off with the locomotive brake on... and the reservoir needs to be charged before the brake will come off.Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-02 AT 11:41 PM (EDT)

1. Fozzy, more than once you've touched on the fact that you get to play on real trains... let's have the details. Since we're all dreaming of running a real one, you'd better not be holding out on us! Or am I just reading your posts wrong?2. The messages about braking remind me of the BAD things about Train Sim. In MSTS, the brakes apply proportionally to the amount of air you release. In a real train the brakes apply in proportion to the amount of air you release BASED ON how much air is already in the air line from your last braking operation. It is possible to use up all your air on a real train (release down to zero lbs). In MSTS, it is "sort of" possible, in that you can decrease the compressor power, so that if you apply the breaks fully, it will be a while before you have air to release again. But this makes it difficult to release the brakes, so it is not satisfactory, either. I hope MSTS 2 addresses this issue.BTW, there is an absolutely superb article on RR brakes at this link
http://www.vcn.com/~alkrug/rrfacts/rrfacts.htm
there are several other articles every RR enthusiast should/must read. Check out his home page, also. There are photo essays from his road trips as a BNSF engineer.

NORFOLK & WESTERN
Precision TransportationMike Rector
mrector@columbus.rr.com

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Mike: Ditto Ditto... Great info,and I also checked out the RR Facts and Figures Link. Excellent Site. Bookmarked it, 'cause it is full of good info. Ron, Deland, FL

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-02 AT 09:53 AM (EDT)

>Something I have never got, though I play steam quite a lot,
>what is the J key small compressor for?. I know the ESE wont
>start rolling if it isn't on, but what does it do?
>
>David AFAIK, if you turn the compressor off, brake pipe does not recharge. The result is that brakes aren't released because pressure isn't built up again. So it seems like the panto button for electrical locos: it's there for realism, but actually you don't use it in MSTS. I've noticed too that ESE takes quite a time to recharge compared to other MSTS locos. It all depends on compressor charge rate versus number of car reservoirs to recharge.
On Flying Scotsman, J button is the small ejector, so called because it takes the air off to create vacuum (the opposite of the compressor), as Flying Scotsman uses vacuum brakes.
On Flying Scotsman the "Running" position is available instead of "Lap". In this position, brakes discharge at a slow rate, so it's useful while approaching a station to reduce braking force a little or downhill if you see you have braked a little too much.Another useful aspect is that with steam locos you can partially release the brakes, while on diesel ones you can only have a full release. This is one of the reasons I prefer steam locos over diesel ones.See also:
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/2493.html#7
http://www.vcn.com/~alkrug/rrfacts/brakes.htm

Umberto

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-02 AT 10:12 AM (EDT)

To Bill (wecline):You can use F5 key to display generation and usage steam rate. You need to keep the boiler pressure at his max, so you must not use more steam than the generated one. Pay particular attention when the fireman (you or the automatic one) opens the injector to load water in the boiler. You will notice that steam usage rate grows suddenly as the fireman uses steam to move water in the boiler, so you may need to reduce a little your regulator until the fireman hasn't finished. One secret is to use less steep portions of the track not to go faster, but to reduce regulator (maintaining the same speed) so that to allow boiler pressure to rebuild to max before encountering the following steeper portion of the track.

Umberto

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Thanks for the tips, Umberto. Still learning something new each day.Bill

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