Open letter to Nels

WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE OLD ARCHIVES? This has gone far enough.While appreciative of the effort you've put in to improve the appearance of the forum, I'm really annoyed that after all this time there is still no sign of most of the old archive posts.At first I thought that you and Macster had culled just the offensive ones, or that you intended to make the remainder of the archives available. But I'm rethinking this. When I search for posts that I have been particularly interested in, I find that most of the early ones are not brought up in a keyword search. Since we have no means of browsing the archives, it is still a big secret as to how far back they go. In the absence of any information to the contrary, I can thus only conclude that you have deleted most of the old archive posts. First of all, there was no advance warning that you intended to close down the site for repairs. I suppose that would have been acceptable if you intended to leave the archives alone, although some notification would have helped.Second, it would have been polite to advise us maybe a few weeks in advance that you were going to reduce the archives, if that is indeed what you have done.It is now a few weeks since the new forum format. I notice the absence of many regular posters to the old forums and am not surprised.Are we going to be able to access the missing posts or are they gone for good?Are we going to be able to browse the old archives or merely search them?I can't find a smiley that adequately expresses how I feel about this.

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Open letter to Nels [View All], cytrain, 00:17 AM, Jul-08-02, (0) RE: Open letter to Nels, MKT1972, Jul-08-02, 00:40 AM, (1) RE: Open letter to Nels, cytrain, Jul-08-02, 02:47 AM, (4) RE: Open letter to Nels, CajunRon, Jul-08-02, 07:55 PM, (18) RE: Open letter to Nels, chattanooga_choo_choo, Jul-08-02, 00:44 AM, (2) RE: Open letter to Nels, cytrain, Jul-08-02, 02:35 AM, (3) RE: Open letter to Nels, Stooopid_person, Jul-08-02, 06:44 AM, (5) RE: Open letter to Nels, DRGWK36, Jul-08-02, 07:55 AM, (6) RE: Open letter to Nels, dcmorris, Jul-08-02, 09:30 AM, (7) RE: Open letter to Nels, pwillard, Jul-08-02, 09:47 AM, (8) RE: Open letter to Nels, DRGWK36, Jul-08-02, 12:23 PM, (10) RE: Open letter to Nels, kyleh24, Jul-08-02, 10:37 AM, (9) RE: Open letter to Nels, SharkNose, Jul-08-02, 12:26 PM, (11) RE: Open letter to Nels, rpicardi1, Jul-08-02, 12:37 PM, (12) RE: Open letter to Nels, pstraten, Jul-08-02, 01:08 PM, (14) RE: Open letter to Nels, steam4me, Jul-08-02, 06:12 PM, (16) RE: Open letter to Nels, georgi55, Jul-08-02, 01:03 PM, (13) RE: Open letter to Nels, calr, Jul-08-02, 01:48 PM, (15) RE: Open letter to Nels, cytrain, Jul-08-02, 06:35 PM, (17) RE: Open letter to Nels, rick, Jul-08-02, 08:22 PM, (19) RE: Open letter to Nels, cytrain, Jul-08-02, 09:05 PM, (20) RE: Open letter to Nels, Nels_Anderson, Jul-09-02, 02:01 PM, (21) RE: Open letter to Nels, cytrain, Jul-09-02, 08:16 PM, (22)

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If you believe that you could do a better job of running a forum such as this try it sometime. I am willing to bet Nels makes absolutely zero dollars off of this site. It is provided for our convenience and as such I am grateful for it. Many threads were lost during the transition, yeah I know it bites but thats just how it goes. IMHO Nels owes us nothing and in reality we owe him a thank you for providing this place for us. 1972"I am the game and you don't want to play me." Lemmy Kilmister--Motorhead

http://www.trainsimstuff.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 03:06 AM (EDT)

>I am willing to bet Nels
>makes absolutely zero dollars off of this site.How would you know? There's no such thing as a free lunch.>Many threads were lost during the transition, yeah I
>know it bites but thats just how it goes. Why should we accept this? If the hard disk crashed and couldn't be repaired, that's one thing. If we'd been given adequate warning that the old archives might be reduced, that would have been honest and acceptable.>IMHO Nels owes us
>nothing and in reality we owe him a thank you for providing
>this place for us. IMO Nels owes us either an explanation or an apology. Over the time I have been submitting posts, I have put many hours of work into ensuring my posts were understandable and adequately illustrated. I am sure many others are equally disappointed that all their hard work has gone too without the slightest explanation.There is still the possibility that this situation may change or that he may respond directly to my questions above, but am not overly optimistic at this stage. Oh, and if anyone saved a copy of my original post on making the driver aids transparent, which I think was called "I've been wanting to do this for a long time" or something similar, would they please e-mail it to me? I'd like it as a keepsake.Barry Andrews
barryand@melbpc.org.au

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 08:05 PM (EDT)

(After further consideration, I've decided to removed my reply so as to not contribute to the negativeness that seems to be growing in our forum)My recommendation...everyone take a deep breath, slowly exhale and now imagine your standing right next to the person you're communicating with. You share a common interest with him and he's already done a few nice things for you. You'd be much more polite, courteous and careful in how you worded things wouldn't you?

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What keywords are you using? I did a search and found information back to June 3 2001, which I think was about the time MSTS came out.

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More shunting views by tweaking camcfg.dat
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/9131.htmlEaster egg pics
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/9574.htmlImproved cab views
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=373&forum=DCForumID3&archive=yesKIHA 31 fixed
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/8903.htmlLoad meter bug
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/9677.htmlMajor Breakthrough in Water animation
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7055&forum=DCForumID3&archive=yesYard camera trick
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/9267.htmlWant more?

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 06:45 AM (EDT)

The Engine & livery forum has archivesreply to message 3 The links don't work-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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The archives seem to still be there. I accessed posts from at least a year ago by clicking on the "Archive" link at the top and bottom of the page. The posts included discussions of "Welcome to the New Forum" and how to create realistic topography without having to rely on the modify terrain function (i.e., the whole development of DEM import). So it was fairly early in the forum's history. The Search function doesn't seem to access the archive, though, and that would be very helpful.IMO, the Forum is by far the most useful and informative resource that exists for MSTS. Ignore the flames and other assorted silliness, and with a bit of effort, you can find pretty much anything you need to enjoy the game. Nels and Macster have my gratitude for their efforts in keeping this thing running.We should all remember at least 2 things. First, it's only a game. And second, for most of us, the whole thing is free. Hard to find a better deal. Andy

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This forum costs me zip. I don't even get annoying advertising banners and pop-ups. Thru' this forum I have gained a lot of valuable info. If it disappeared today I am still way ahead of where I was before I first "discovered" it. It also allows one to post about anything. This includes negatives about anyone and any subject. Folks, it doesn't get much better! Those who and maintain this site owe us nothing but they give us something money can't buy. They may or may not have lost some info when they changed the format. If they did, I am sure it will find its way onto this site again. My hat is off to the people who maintain this site and also to the positive contributors who have made my investment in MSTS worth every penny.
Your dedication considering all of the negative comments have got to be appreciated by the vast majority of the participants of this forum.
D.C.

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Stuff happens...
Things Change...Assuming that Nels does this for money is ludicrous. Expecting him tp provide you with explanations beyond what have already been provided... I don't think your gonna be happy. You are probably not going to get an answer that says "everything will be alright" and since the forum is still here, I don't think he needs to apologize for anything.When was the last time you got a resonable explanation or apology from a web site owner that just "disappeared" from the web?My advice to anyone who thinks that certain topics and tidbits might be beneficial for the long term is to do what Rich Garber did... write a FAQ or tutorial based on some of the forum threads.Just my 2 cents, which is more than Nels gets paid to run this forum, I presume.By the way... Nels does answer his email... You might give that a try.
Pete Willard

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After checking again, the Archives link doesn't show up on the MicroSoft Train Simulator forum, but does for the MSTS Route Design. I haven't checked other forums. Just check out the upper right for "Page."Andy

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Might I suggest that you use the save function on your file menu to preserve post that are so dear to you. Use "save as", and then make sure you have "complete web page" selected. I also cut and paste alot, involving just text, that explains anything I'm interested in. It is not reasonable for anyone to expect a bookmark to last indefinately, here, or anywhere else.P.S. I recognize your name as being a contributer from the past, and I'm not trying to start a flame war; however, Your post come across as demanding and impatient. Just though you'd like to know...

Kyle H

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My advice is to not get your knickers in a twist. I was also a little disappointed when the new forum emerged out of the void. But you've got to learn to roll with the changes. I learned how to work the new user features and have gotten pretty used to the new format. I was even more disappointed when I had just made a lengthy, considerate post to some poor new guy who had a loop in his route and things were crashing on him. When the new forum came up, that thread was gone! I took a deep breath and moved on. He'll post again if he wants to. Or, if not, someone else will encounter the same situation and look to Train-Sim.com for assistance.It's highly likely that the old forum software was in danger of being unsupported by its makers, so Nels might have had no choice but to upgrade or take the risk of trying to solve problems on his own.- Andrew

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I did a search last week to find the thread that discussed enlarging the RE window. Once I used the right keywords, I found the article with the information needed.It's probably taking time to get all the bugs out of this new system and the links in place.SRV Ron

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"It's probably taking time to get all the bugs out of this new system and the links in place."
This would seem to be the case. If you can search and find such information, the archives must still be available in some form. The "mail to" icon in the upper right corner of a message doesn't work presently either, but obviously it is meant to, and undoubtedly it will work at some future time. From personal experience converting data to new programs, I know you can run into problems that can become a nightmare. And Nels has already posted that things didn't go as smoothly as hoped.There is a valid point to be made, though, that we are in the dark from lack of information. It would be helpful, and quash all these fears and arguments, if Nels could find the time to create a brief "status report" about the conversion somewhere on the site and let us know that attempts are being made to activate/reactivate these kinds of features.
PaulS

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Pete Willard wrote
>write a FAQ or tutorial based on some of the forum threads.
SRV Ron wrote
>I did a search last week to find the thread that discussed
>enlarging the RE window.

Over the past few months, I've tried to collect the classic threads on this forum and assemble them on a tutorials page which is available off my main page via the link in the sig. I try to grab the obvious classic threads and preserve them (and have been doing that ever since the early web sites for MSTS started disappearing suddenly without notice).The RE editor fix is there. Many authors have given permission for me to reproduce their tutorials on my page (there's a couple of exceptions who don't even reply to my emails, but that's cool, I'm patient) and the railpage server seems reasonably permanent (as far as anything on the internet can be permanent these days).
RegardsYuri.
-------------------------------------
Webmaster
Australian MSTS Add-ons Page
-------------------------------------

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Nels owes us nothin. He can say "cytrain, you are banned for life" and ban you.
He can delete all the posts if he want. There is no freedom of speach or those amedments here, its privetly owned and operated board.
You can say that "It would have been nice if he did" but he doesnt OWE us neither apology nor explanation.
YOU(us) owe him BIG TIME for this site and forum. Where you will be without this site? Searching throguh Yahoo or from MSTS official wesbsite links? (and MANY of those links are dead - which means you can see how hard it is to operate site like this.)
Lunch has to be paid but train-sim.com and flightsim.com is NOT Nels' job, he is just doing it for fellow simmers.
He doesnt have to but he is willing to spend his time and money so that we can have place to gather and share our work.

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I am fairly certain that Nels is still working on configuring the new forum software and importing data from the old system. I see that the archived messages are present in the Route building forum and I am sure the others will be restored as Nels has time.BTW Nels, do you have a full time day job?? It looks like maintaining two major websites wouldn't allow time for a "paying" job!! We (most of us anyway!) appreciate all your hard work.
Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, ORColumbia Gorge Route (Temporarily on hold, while working on several TSM projects)

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 06:44 PM (EDT)

Thanks guys who have responded so far.It's interesting that neither Nels nor Macster have shown up in these replies. Moderators are supposed to respond relatively quickly in these situations. I didn't e-mail either since I felt this was a public forum and they should respond publicly. However, if they're not willing to speak here I guess I'll just have to send an e-mail.In response to Andy (DRGWK36), you can search the archives simply by ticking the "include archives" box in your search. What intrigues me is that some people say they have been able to access archive posts in some cases going back to the start of the archive. So what is happening? I've kept the same login that I've always had, yet when I search for posts under my name in all forums in all sections including archives, I only seem to find a quarter of them. Has there been some selective deletion? If so, on what basis? Why discriminate? Many of the best posts have had graphic files attached. The sensible thing would have been to either give us notice that older posts were to be deleted, or zip them up into a set of archive files we could download from the files download section. But we still don't know if they're there or not.I quite agree with Andy that "the Forum is by far the most useful and informative resource that exists for MSTS". I'm still learning lots from it, referring people to the earlier posts that still exist, and would like to continue only now we seem to have to reinvent the wheel.It's hard to look a gift horse in the mouth. I'm sad to have to raise my voice like this, and agree that value for money here is great. But if the guys running this show insist on giving us the mushroom treatment, it kinda destroys my confidence in posting or uploading anything here. I still keep hoping that this particular forum's archives will return in due course, or be made available in some way to those of us who want them.

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>While appreciative of the effort you've put in to improve
>the appearance of the forum, I'm really annoyed that after
>all this time there is still no sign of most of the old
>archive posts. If the archive posts meant that much to you, YOU should have
saved them.Nels is not responsible for the loss of files. I am. We
had been told that it was a simple upgrade and there would
be few if any problems. We have had quite a few requests by
members for the new features. We made backups before the
"upgrade" and kept them for several days until we thought
everything was ok. The result is that there is NO complete
backup of the archives. I will not try to explain the details
here, just that the whole process was a total disaster as far
as I am concerned.Rick
SysAdmin

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-02 AT 09:08 PM (EDT)

Thank you Rick for your honesty, which is much appreciated. At least we know where we stand now. I guess that explains Nels and Macster's reticence.>>If the archive posts meant that much to you, YOU should have
>>saved them.Luckily, I did backup most of the posts I wanted to keep. The URLs I mentioned above were some of the ones I did save. I am happy to re-post or e-mail any that are needed and hope others are willing to do the same.Although you said "there is no complete backup of the archives", might it be possible to recover any for this or any other forum, or zip them up and upload them to the files download section for a limited time, say a month?"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone.."
- Joni Mitchell, Big Yellow Taxi

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I was just notified about this thread, so let me see if I can answer.I saw some comments about how I am supposed to actively monitor and quickly respond to this sort of thing. Well, if I were to do all the things that flightsimmers and train-simmers seem to think I ought to be doing we'll have to institute a 48 hour day. I'd love to be more active in the forums, but I simply don't have the time every day.I'm afraid things are about as good as they are going to get. The forum software update was supposed to be relatively simple and involve no data loss (so says the author). That turned out to be far from true. I still don't understand the pattern of messages that were lost and I guess never will. Unfortunately, what's gone is gone and we have no way to recover it. There are still problems with the user database that we haven't found a solution for (some have noticed that the email link does not work). We're still trying to find a better solution for the truly awful new system for hosting and inserting images; the old version was much better.We didn't think any major notification was necessary as we thought we'd be done for maybe an hour and then right back up with everything in place under the new software. Obviously that didn't happen.So at this point the best thing to do is accept what we've got and get back on with life. We lost some old messages, but it's hardly the end of the hobby.By the way, we do have a FAQ here where the best questions and answers can be archived. If you write something worth saving email me a copy of it to put in the FAQ as that will make it easier to find and prevent it being lost.

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>I saw some comments about how I am supposed to actively
>monitor and quickly respond to this sort of thing. Well, if
>I were to do all the things that flightsimmers and
>train-simmers seem to think I ought to be doing we'll have
>to institute a 48 hour day. I'd love to be more active in
>the forums, but I simply don't have the time every day. I understand, but isn't that why Macster's supposed to be hanging around?>I'm afraid things are about as good as they are going to
>get. The forum software update was supposed to be relatively
>simple and involve no data loss (so says the author). That
>turned out to be far from true. I still don't understand the
>pattern of messages that were lost and I guess never will.
>Unfortunately, what's gone is gone and we have no way to
>recover it. There are still problems with the user database
>that we haven't found a solution for (some have noticed that
>the email link does not work). We're still trying to find a
>better solution for the truly awful new system for hosting
>and inserting images; the old version was much better. When it all adds up, we seem to have lost a lot more than we gained by this update. Well, at last you've told us the real story.>We didn't think any major notification was necessary as we
>thought we'd be done for maybe an hour and then right back
>up with everything in place under the new software. >So at this point the best thing to do is accept what we've
>got and get back on with life. We lost some old messages,
>but it's hardly the end of the hobby. True, so how about warning us next time next time you're thinking of doing it?You ought to scrap the present archives altogether and set up a system to automatically collect posts more than a month old every 3 to 6 months (removing ads but keeping pics if possible), compress them into archive zip files and upload them so we can download them in one hit. We can only download them post by post, which is pretty tedious.I've now said all I want to say on this.

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