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Well Coming up this summer will be a full Year since President Gunn took charge of Amtrak? Please state your opnions and have facts to back them up

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Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak. [View All], AM_ROAD, 10:33 PM, Apr-01-03, (0) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., MJLriak, Apr-01-03, 11:05 PM, (1) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., IcyFire, Apr-01-03, 11:36 PM, (2) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., sd70mac6662, Apr-02-03, 08:11 AM, (3) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., UP Wings, Apr-02-03, 08:35 AM, (4) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., ssw, Apr-02-03, 08:54 AM, (5) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., chucksc, Apr-02-03, 09:08 AM, (6) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., sd70mac6662, Apr-02-03, 02:31 PM, (7) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., chucksc, Apr-02-03, 03:23 PM, (8) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., sd70mac6662, Apr-02-03, 03:29 PM, (10) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., Macster, Apr-02-03, 03:28 PM, (9) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., Matt Vince, Apr-02-03, 03:45 PM, (13) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., chucksc, Apr-02-03, 03:49 PM, (15) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., Matt Vince, Apr-02-03, 05:43 PM, (16) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., Matt Vince, Apr-02-03, 03:31 PM, (11) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., sd70mac6662, Apr-02-03, 03:36 PM, (12) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., Matt Vince, Apr-02-03, 03:48 PM, (14) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., AM_ROAD, Apr-02-03, 10:31 PM, (17) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., sd70mac6662, Apr-03-03, 10:07 AM, (18) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., AM_ROAD, Apr-04-03, 00:29 AM, (19) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., chucksc, Apr-04-03, 09:33 AM, (21) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., jtr1962, Apr-04-03, 07:30 AM, (20) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., Matt Vince, Apr-04-03, 02:59 PM, (22) RE: Feelings of Gunn on Amtrak., AM_ROAD, Apr-04-03, 09:06 PM, (23)

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Pretty much the same as they were last year. A boat taking on water with a different captian..... is still a boat taking on water.no long term solutions, just replacing the band aid.....
and the always present, give us funding, or we start cutting routes speeches.at least they haven't changed the paint scheme (very) recentlyMatt

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I wish they would change the paint though, Phase 5 is too.. I dunno.. Just blah, go back to 4 or 3 or something
Sincerely,
Shawn Kenselaar
ShawnSSK@Yahoo.com

Train-sim.com Lifer and Screen Shot Forum Mod
Repainter for YLW & TKW

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Get rid of the Acela

formerly known as sd70mac666 until the forum software decided to hate me

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I though Acela was the only thing making money for Amtrak. They were racing the air ports in the Northeast and scence 9-11 they were doing quit well. But I might be wrong.

UP Wings
-Brian-
"Union Pacific-The Overland Route"

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I think Gunn just needs some time.... After all, you can't come into a failing corporation, put some magic dust on it and BOOM! Insta-profitable corporation. I like the Phase IVB paint he has, will look better on trains. One complaint- Amtrak cut the Diner out of the Texas Eagle from FTW-SAS and return, a distance of about 10 train Hrs.

Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas

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Don't pay any attention to him...
He never posts anything except negatives about any manufacturer other than GM...
He saves his best krapola for Bombardier.....
A troll on this subject....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-03 AT 02:33 PM (EDT)

The Acela was supposed to be out in 1998 or 1999, and was not. Therefore I have nothing to say about Acela other than the fact that's it's a piece of shi* on wheels. If you can delay a high speed train launch until December 2000 what's the point? it's still a bunch of garbage. Gunn ain't ordering any of those after the numerous falts on them. I don't balme him, he was head of the TTC before amtrak (which is why I know what his style is)After all I was born and raised in GM land pal. I'm biased, but I like GE, but still, at this point hard to tell. I'll rain fire on Bombardier if I want to. Now if they could get the jetrain to work then, Amtrak could look at it. I could swear like a sailor on Bombardier but I'm not. They make some of the best subway and bi level cars Ive seen. the nightstar coaches are still to be decided although I've heard from people it's good if you don't need to pass people in the aisled. Sleeper space on those coaches get an F because most people are more than 5'3" You like claustrophobia it's for you. my verdic on the subject: Scrap the Acela's and go for the TGV or ICE trains. At least they now have less brakedowns and malfunctions

formerly known as sd70mac666 until the forum software decided to hate me

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-03 AT 03:38 PM (EDT)

>The Acela was supposed to be out in 1998 or 1999, and was
>not. And Bombardier's argument was that most of that delay was due to Amtrak's mismanagement and micromanagement of the contract!
Amtrak of course disputes that and it is up to the courts to settle.
However there is significant legal opinion and documentation ( Much more of it than pro amtrak) supporting Bombardier's position.>Therefore I have nothing to say about Acela other than
>the fact that's it's a piece of shi* on wheels. Too bad the American Public and most of the on-board crews disagree with you! Do you know more about the train then the people who ride and drive it every day? Have you ever ridden it? or seen it up close?>If you can >delay a high speed train launch until December 2000 >what's >the point? Who delayed it? Amtrak? Bombardier? US-DOT/FRA?
That's currently in the courts and the smart money is betting on Bombardier winning unless Amtrak can bully them into a settlement by threatening to prevent them from doing any further business in the US. Think its not possible???? Where was the Bombardier Bid for Metra or LI-RR or MN?>it's still a bunch of garbage. Your opinion only. Not shared by very many other people who drive, work and ride on them. FWIW, I travel on it and have traveled on it on average of at least once every 4 to 6 weeks since its introduction.
I definitely don't agree with you. And I was not aware of any of my fellow passengers who did. Quite the contrary! It is also consistently sold out so it appears a lot of people like it enough to choose it over air travel and pay a premium while they are at it.>Gunn ain't ordering any of those after the numerous falts on them. He and Amtrak have no reason to order more. Unless more routes are electrified he has sufficient equipment capacity to cover existing routes and schedules. His statement, IMO (formed through personal contacts at US-DOT), he was setting a tough negotiating position with Bombardier. The reasoning is simple, If Bombardier wins in court which is a distinct possibility, the stretched out and deferred payments on a loan guaranteed by the Canadian government that financed the "American Flyer" (Original Name) deal and significant damages and costs would be immediately accelerated into an immediate amount due. There is no way in hell Amtrak can cover that!I >don't balme him, he was head of the TTC before amtrak (which
>is why I know what his style is)
>I have had time to observe his style through contacts and contract work at US DOT also....>After all I was born and raised in GM land pal. I'm biased, Finally! Truth in advertising! You should have said this upfront so people would understand your "spin".>but I like GE, but still, at this point hard to tell. I'll
>rain fire on Bombardier if I want to. >Are you aware the Primary Propulsion subcontractor was Alsthom. The people who built the TGV. Same technology!> Now if they could get the jetrain to work then, Amtrak could look at it. Are you aware The Jet Train is over 80% compatible with and a reuse of Acela parts? If one works then so does the other...>I could swear like a sailor on Bombardier but I'm not. They make
>some of the best subway and bi level cars Ive seen. the
>nightstar coaches are still to be decided although I've
>heard from people it's good if you don't need to pass people
>in the aisled. Sleeper space on those coaches get an F
>because most people are more than 5'3" You like
>claustrophobia it's for you.
>In other words they (the NightStars) are $hit for Canadian-American operating conditions, Eh? Even though they were built for premier European service?>my verdic on the subject: Scrap the Acela's and go for the
>TGV or ICE trains. You can't use TGV or ICE unmodified! They do not meet US (and Canadian) safety requirements. If you do make them meet FRA requirements then they are Acelas.
The US requirements were set from real world collision data developed by the 100+ collision on the NEC in the infamous Ricky Gates incident! All US passenger equipment has to meet this standard! End of Discussion!
(note: I think you meant opinion not "verdic" which isn't even a word.)The Acela is based on the TGV design with the addition of tilting! Which was mandated for passenger comfort on the NEC. The NEC has portions of the rail alignment over 150 years old. There is and was no chance that the money would ever be there for the dedicated right of way that the TGV and ICE use for speeds above approx 120mph..
FYI, this is the part of the performance envelope that mandated all the changes that added all the weight that caused some of the problems. > At least they now have less brakedowns and malfunctions Now! But initially their delivery quality was similar to Acela's.Also you should be aware that all of the problems are in fact covered under warranty and are being repaired as Such by Bombardier at no further cost to the American Taxpayer. Unless Amtrak loses to Bombardier in Court. And as recently as February I was told by an Engine Service Crew and a Road Foreman of Engines/Train-master (I wasn't sure of his exact title) that most of the problems are resolved. Most by improving preventative maintenance procedures and inspections. As the RFE/TM put it to me "These are not Steam Engines and we can't fix them with a sledge hammer and it was a culture shock to some people for some of our people!"IMO, The Acela Express was a brilliant concept and an engineering solution that required pushing the envelope. In business these are called "stretch objectives".FYI, The requirements were for a ADA compliant, FRA Tier(whatever) crash-worthiness compliant Train-set capable of operating at or above 150mph for extended distances on existing 150 year old right of way while sharing said right of way with Commuter Trains, Conventional Trains running 30 to 50 mph slower and Freight Traffic. The requirements also called for a high degree of automation to reduce crew workload and improve maintainability. Automation Solutions, Hardware and Software, that did not exist at the time of the original Proposal/Bid. The Train-set also had to be capable of expanding from 6 cars to 10 cars (iirc) (note: that may now be reduced to 8 given the weight creep induced by other changes) and still meet the performance specs with the existing engines. In other words any follow ons would be for more cars not engines. If you get the Jet Train up there in Canada you will get the exact same train with the replacement of the Electric Engines with Fossil Fuel engines which are 80% the same.. Primary differences are replacing the Rectifier and Transformers with the Turbine Package including cooling,fuel and the necessary control mods. Everything else is reported to be interchangeable. So be careful what you condemn! You could be riding F7s and Heritage cars for a long time.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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I see where you are coming from now Chuck
Well met.
Puts a smile on my face.
Thumbs up
I agree with you 100%Talk to you later

formerly known as sd70mac666 until the forum software decided to hate me

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Go with Talgo... the Trainsets here do NOT run with extra trainsets or cars for that matter, the Talgo is more so ontime the Acela and pulls in more money, also the trains lately have been sold out on weekdays and weekends. The Acela while granted, it looks "nice" it's service record and rush into getting it in service blew it from being a true succuss. If those of you that read trains, recall by to December issue.. Talgo had a HEART ATTACK and had phone calls going to Madrid wanting HEADS for a failure.. the talgo runs 98.9% ontime, hardly any needed maintance. It's ability to make up time because it can go through curves at a higher rate of speed makes this a wonderful trainset to have.

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, Wa

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As I posted in a suprisingly similar discussion earlier, Theoretically, Talgos can only tilt up to 3.5 degrees. The Fiat-Ferrovia tilt kit gives tilting more than double that, up to 8 degrees (Pendolinos). Acela Express can tilt at 6.5 deg maximum. Reliability is only one part of the very complex equation, performance is where AE excels. Add to that the fact that the Talgos wouldn't fit on the NEC. Otherwise, they're pretty good.

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Also Brian & Matt the Talgos are not FRA or ADA compliant.
That means legally they can no longer be sold and the existing units are Grandfathered. Which means they are legal until the 1st wreck!
Talgo offers an FRA/ADA compliant model but no demonstrators exist so it is merely a paper train at this point.
IMO, if they build it they will be plagued by many of the same problems the AE has/had.....
Remeber the specs. are still the same so they would have to meet the same specs as the AE did.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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A couple of points:
I wouldn't feel too safe in a Talgo, the whole thing seems a bit 'wobbly' (bad pun about passive tilting trains). Interesting point about Talgos being non-compliant, crashworthiness is an issue which must be taken seriously, it is the 'last line of defence'. One of the greatest examples of a number of things relevant is the 'Great Heck' incident of 2001. Firstly, it showed you don't need grade x-ings to have auto-caused accidents (a Land Rover and trailer plunged off a bridge after the driver fell asleep). Secondly, it showed how modern designs - in this case the Mark 4 - can withstand very high speed collisions with freight trains (in spite of the train operating in push-pull, the locomotive was trailing). The combined impact speed was 142mph (the highest ever recorded in the UK), the drivers of the express and freight, and 8 passengers, were sadly taken from us, but a design not too dissimilar to the AE's trailers, held together in the main (only the front vehicles were write-offs) and saved many more lives. The freight was a GM Class 66 hauled coal train, all of modern hoppers.Second point
Could a 'heavyweight' FRA-compliant Talgo do 150mph? I doubt it, and I doubt whether it could tilt sufficiently to maintain 125mph+ on the Shore Line's curves east of New Haven.

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"The Acela was supposed to be out in 1998 or 1999, and was not"And it doesn't suprise me. Acela Express is not like anything Amtrak has had before, so you are going to have problems initially. And considering they are so high-tech, all computerised, software problems are going to happen. But Alstom being better? c'mon, here in the UK, Alstom's Juniper EMUs haven't all entered service, the Adelantes are late, although all have been accepted, and the only truely successful service entry in recent years has been the Voyager, built by Bombardier!>the nightstar coaches are still to be decided although I've heard from people it's good if you don't need to pass people in the aisled. Sleeper space on those coaches get an F because most people are more than 5'3" You like claustrophobia it's for you. Er, the Nightstars were built by GEC-Alsthom at the former Metro-Cammell works in Washwood Heath, Birmingham, UK. They are 'based' on a UK design known as the Mark 4 (although the body profile is different, Mk4 was designed to tilt, even though this wasn't fitted). They were built to UK specification, to run sleeper services from various parts of the UK to Europe, under the control of Eurostar (hence the name 'Nightstar'). Failure of these services to materialise meant they were redundant, along with the 7 North of London Eurostars (14 half-sets, Class 373/3, nos 3301-3314). 5 of the 7 Eurostars have found gainful employment on hire to UK operator GNER, while the Nightstar vehicles were stored, then sold to VIA at rock-bottom prices. VIA got a good deal, unused sleepers at bargain prices."my verdic on the subject: Scrap the Acela's and go for the TGV or ICE trains. At least they now have less brakedowns and malfunctions"Nice idea, only a couple of slight snags. Firstly, you'd need to convert the traction equipment to take 25Hz and 60Hz power, unlike TGVs (50Hz) and ICEs (16 2/3Hz). This is possible, but you may end up with software problems initially. Secondly, neither ICE nor TGV production models can tilt, and I seriously doubt the US Government's willingness to fund a brand-new line across Connecticut (remember, the whole idea with Acela was to give a 3 hour Bos-NYC time). The nearest thing is the ICT (Electric model), a 135mph tilting train, or the Fiat/Alsthom Pendolino (ETR460/470/480 permitted up to 155mph). Finally, whether the FRA gives permission to run European spec trains is something not even worth considering. They would most likely freak out at the thought of ICE-3s, with their 'observation car' style front comparments. And when was the last 150mph GM-built train (or 125mph for that matter)? Even LRCs used ALCo prime-movers!

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isin't the fiat a type of car?

formerly known as sd70mac666 until the forum software decided to hate me

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Fiat Ferroviaria - the rail division of Fiat, now owned by Alstom.

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OK I will answer some of these for you. >I wish they would change the paint though, Phase 5 is too.. I dunno.. Just blah, go back to 4 or 3 or something
Gunn really wants to but he is using the money amtrak has right now to better services and repair cars he views that as a first piroity. He has spoken publicly about how he dislikes phase 5 and has a phase 6 in the works on the new Amfleet cars, it looks alot like the phase 3 scheme and Gunn only weres the old Amtrak icon rather then the new one on his jacket. >Get rid of the Acela.
Gunn will keep them but he said "I'll never hire theses Sons of B#$@hes again" LOL Amtrak has shown intrest in the Talgo Express but right now they are commited in restoring Amtrak. >Go with Talgo... the Trainsets here do NOT run with extra trainsets or cars for that matter, the Talgo is more so ontime the Acela and pulls in more money.
See above.

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Chuck is right on his points though. I am in no position to disagree with him, I talked to him in private, and he kinda knows where I'm coming from. But I will admit that i have been alienated because of the bad press on the Acela. I pointed that out to Chuck and he understood. Maybe when I can get down there one day I'll take a ride on one.

formerly known as sd70mac666 until the forum software decided to hate me

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From what I hear on the Acela the passengers love them but hey are a bitch to maintain.

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>From what I hear on the Acela the passengers love them but
>hey are a bitch to maintain. The funny part about that is that the maintenance is done by Bombardier Employees as part of the Total Service Contract with Amtrak.If they are complaining, they are putting their own jobs in jeopardy. FWIW, The people I have heard echoing complaints about the AE's maintenance are not part of the maintenance team.From what I have heard They are complex machines and have a demanding Preventative Maintenance Schedule not unlike an Aircraft's. This is not surprising as the Tier 5 (??) FRA specs (The authorization to do 150mph) are almost twice as demanding as the next lower level... What all this means is that they can not be safely maintained by the typical Car Knocker with a 10lb sledge as is the rest of Amtrak's fleet...
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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OK, back on topic. It's a moot point who's in charge until Amtrak starts getting the same amount of funding as the highways and airlines do. I heard Congress was looking to give the airlines yet another $3 billion because they're complaining about the cost of the new mandated security measures. I think the airlines should quit while they're ahead and consider themselves lucky that they don't have to pay for all the damage the noise and pollution from their stupid planes cause(same goes for car drivers, BTW). Instead of propping up a dying and environmentally unfriendly(both noise and pollution-wise) industry with an abysmal safety record, that money would be better spent on Amtrak. Same goes for this stupid war. $75 billion can build a few thousand miles of dedicated 200 to 250 mph high speed line, which would mean no dependence on foreign oil, and thus no need to invade places like Iraq, or give money to Israel in the first place. As a bonus, the USA might eventually be able to export it's high-speed train technology to other countries if it were good enough.

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>same amount of funding as the highways and airlines doAdd to that fuel taxes. Why should Aviation Fuel be taxed less than diesel, or plain old gasoline?>I heard Congress was looking to give the airlines yet another $3 billion because they're complaining about the cost of the new mandated security measuresThis may offend, but when was the last time a train was hijacked? (Hollywood excepted)>USA might eventually be able to export it's high-speed train technology to other countries if it were good enoughTrouble is, it'll take 10 years and $75bn to simply catch up with what Europe and Japan have already, and you can't take for granted that they won't make a leap forward in that time. So, having a world-beater is difficult...

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>Trouble is, it'll take 10 years and $75bn to simply catch up with what Europe and Japan have already, and you can't take for granted that they won't make a leap forward in that time. So, having a world-beater is difficult...LOL We hace caught up? hahaha

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