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Reading the post on `Railfanning Day` has brought to mind other posts concerning the behaviour of officialdom towards railfans. Why are rail security, police and rail employers in general so antagonistic towards train enthusiasts? Is it purely and simply due to security and/or safety considerations? We do need security in this world of ours, especialy in the light of recent events, but we must not allow ourselves to become paranoid concerning it nor let it completly dominate our lives.This suspicion is not limited to railfans either. As an amateur astronomer I have both seen and read about it. One humourous incident, but with a serious undertone comes to mind from an article in Astronomy magazine.Apparently two, (I think it was two), amateurs were setting up their telescopes at dusk in a backwoods field somewhere in the US for a nights observation and photography. Anyway it wasn`t long before they found themselves in the centre of a ring of spotlights and heavily armed men demanding to know why they were setting up rocket launchers or mortar tubes right next to a US millitary installation. Once it was all made clear I think they were just told to move on. It`s really amazing how quick you will attract the attention of the local constabulary if you go prowling around at night carrying a big tube.Getting back to the trains, it saddens me to think that the young rail enthusiasts of today do not have the opportunites to get up close and personal with locomotives except on open days or static displays, `Up the steps, through the cab, out the other side thank you`...`Yes madam we do have public liability in case little Johnny takes a bit of bark off his leg.`
In previous years I found locomotive crews in general were only too pleased to indulge the interest of the enthusiast, young and old alike and I had many a ride in the cab while having the intricacies of the loco`s workings explained.I`m at a bit of a loss to come to terms with the way the world is going in general and concerning railfanning and the restrictions placed upon it in particular and wish that the young ones could experience it the way it was.
Anyhow,enough of my rambling'Your thoughts .... ?Keith.

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Railfans and the Man. [View All], Kwp, 10:34 PM, May-21-02, (0) RE: Railfans and the Man., LAHDPOP, May-21-02, 11:33 PM, (1) RE: Railfans and the Man., jhilden, May-21-02, 11:38 PM, (2) RE: Railfans and the Man., Gandalf, May-22-02, 00:05 AM, (3) RE: Railfans and the Man., Eagleknight, May-22-02, 00:18 AM, (4) RE: Railfans and the Man., joha107, May-22-02, 01:31 AM, (5) RE: Railfans and the Man., chucksc, May-22-02, 08:52 AM, (6) RE: Railfans and the Man., atsfdude, May-22-02, 09:47 AM, (7) RE: Railfans and the Man., concaddy, May-22-02, 10:11 AM, (8) RE: Railfans and the Man., kevarc, May-22-02, 10:21 AM, (10) RE: Railfans and the Man., Kwp, May-22-02, 10:19 AM, (9) RE: Railfans and the Man., carlylet, May-22-02, 10:30 AM, (11) RE: Railfans and the Man., chucksc, May-22-02, 11:38 AM, (12) RE: Railfans and the Man., SharkNose, May-22-02, 11:38 AM, (13) RE: Railfans and the Man., HAC, May-22-02, 12:36 PM, (14) RE: Railfans and the Man., carlylet, May-22-02, 03:37 PM, (15) RE: Railfans and the Man., CSXFan, May-23-02, 06:58 AM, (16) RE: Railfans and the Man., LordTauk, May-23-02, 04:54 PM, (17) RE: Railfans and the Man., lrperkins, May-26-02, 12:58 PM, (18) RE: Railfans and the Man., RAILDOG, May-27-02, 09:40 AM, (19) RE: Railfans and the Man., lrperkins, May-27-02, 10:04 AM, (20) RE: Railfans and the Man., RAILDOG, May-27-02, 10:37 AM, (21) RE: Railfans and the Man., LordTauk, May-27-02, 09:28 PM, (22) RE: Railfans and the Man., McCloud_River_John, May-28-02, 01:26 AM, (23) RE: Railfans and the Man., lrperkins, May-28-02, 02:18 AM, (24)

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I can't speak to issue concerning the RR Police, because I've never had a run-in with them. But as for the crews, it's pretty cut and dry around here (west central Indiana). The CP, CSX, and UP crews will usually make a special effort to wave at you, especially if the kids are with you. There's one CSX engineer that runs a local mixed freight that even tosses candy to the kids. The ex-Conrail guys are a different story. On a good day, they'll only look at you like you're scum. On a normal day, they'll flip you off for watching their train go by. Real jerks. Now I don't begin to assume that the Conrail guys' attitude toward railfans is uniform across the system. I'm sure in some areas they're very nice. But around here, a Conrail crew is a good chance for a bird sighting.

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Hey,Railroads have been very cautious the past few years. I used to meet with some local area railfans here in Fort Worth TX, and this issue came up a lot in discussion. I also have some friends who work for the railroad and they gave me some insight to why the policies of railroads are very railfan unfriendly. The main word that keeps coming up is “Liability”. I hear lots of stories of idiots trespassing, getting hurt, and then file a suit against the railroad. In some cases the idiot won. Either way, it cost the railroads money to litigate. I was granted official permission for a cab ride on a class one railroad. I had to sign a disclaimer that must have been 5000 words long.

Protection is another big issue. Railfans have a tendency to take unauthorized souvenirs like lanterns, timetables, or anything they can pickup. I witnessed someone run off with a coupler knuckle! Most railroad workers will tell you they will report a railfan in a minute because there a lots of them out there who overstep their boundaries. Plus, they have to because management is breathing down their necks.

Some railroad workers are still very friendly and approachable, especially if you visit the same site frequently and get to know them. Sometimes I’ve made a chow run for a crew when they’re stuck at a signal and told by the dispatcher it will be some time before they can move. Once, the train got the clear signal a lot sooner then expected; I chased them for 20 miles! Most of the time they will not allow you on to the equipment for fear of getting caught by management. Also, my railroad friends remain very anonymous when talking about railroad issues in open forums on the net for fear of the wrath of the railroads.

Joe Hildenbrand

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I think a big part of it is the liability issue. Railroad property, including areas adjacent to tracks is a very dangerous place. If you have common sense and have had the benefit of a family member who worked on a railroad to terrorize you, (Man my grandpa could tell some real hair raisers about rolling freight cars in a yard) and you obey the rules, there is usually no problem. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "railfans" out there who have no common sense...who don't even seem to have any sense at all! I have seen photographers crouch down literally inches away from the rails as a train approaches. If you have ever
known an engineer who's train has struck someone on or by the tracks, they can tell you why some train crews are so unfriendly to railfans (that is if they can talk about it at all...For most it is an emotionally devestating experience). Don't forget too, that the engineer might not know what your intentions are. He doesn't know for sure that you are just raising your hand to wave. From his point of view, you may be holding a rock or worse!The key is to be safe and be sensible. Stay off the railroad property unless you have permission to be there, and if an official or crewmwmber asks you to move on, regardless of where are, do so without raising a fuss.

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Man KWP I wish I could get a ride in a cab. Man that would be so awesome!

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in response to the conrail crews being not so friendly, i can say for a fact it is not systemwide. most of the conrail crews wave up by me in ny, and on one occasion, they invited meup into the cab to take pictures of a meet with an amtrak train. and as far as security goes, as long as you aren't trespassing, they won't give you any problems. which is understandable. but i have hung around railroads right next to the tracks at freight yards on csx, and they really don't care. joe joe

future Penn Central engineer (i'm only 20).

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I can speak from personal experience here in the DC area.... VRE and MARC crews are very friendly and will talk to you about anything....
In Union Station before 9/11 (things changed after that for obvious reasons) The Amtrak crews were very friendly and open.... On one memorable trip I had two different crews invite my Grandson (5) and I in their locomotives for a cab tour... and in one case a RFE or equivelent supervisor type was in there and he conducted the tour... in the other case my grandson was allowed to sit in the engineers seat of an Acela Exp and sound the horn (it was the trailing unit pointed away from the station) while the engineer and conductor encouraged him.....
The CSX and NS crews will generally wave and if I have one of the grandsons along they will usually give them a "toot"!------Chuck Schneider---------

-----"Power for You"-------
http://nalw.macfall.com

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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I live in East Point, GA and we have 4 tracks running through town, as well as a small yard. I have never had a any issues with exploring the track and yard, but then again I spent many a day in the San Pablo Ave. yard of the ATSF, so I know how to be on my guard. (My grandfather worked for them and had his office in that yard.) I usually get the wave, and have struck up many conversations with the yard workers. They give me the lowdown about being on the property, then look the other way. I have actually had more problems with the local police when I have my digital camera out and taking pictures of the local industries. Once I explain what I am doing, they usually chuckle and go on thier way. Just be curtious, cautious, and considerate and you should have no issues.ATSFDUDE

-- John Tackett --

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I railfanned between Altoona, PA and Johnstown, PA this past Sunday. I would sayalmost every train we saw, the NS crew waved to us. Of course, it may have been due to the fact that my wife was with me too. But everyone in general seemed pretty nice. John Rosh

John Rosh
TKW Public Relations

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Years ago I went into the IC yard in NO, and they send a guy after me, He was very nice and made sure that I had enough pics before he ran me off.Kevin Arceneaux
Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES

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I see by the replies that it is not all doom and gloom and that there are still friendly train crews around and that the rail company`s restrictions are motivated by safety concerns as well as security issues.Speaking of the dangers around yards and such I watched a t.v documentary some time ago and part of it concerned loose shunting. I am not certain if it was a hump yard or not. There did not appear to be a control tower or any retarders and obviously no computer control (and it was black and white footage too). Some of those wagons came in at a fair rate of knots and when they hit the rest of the train there were some interesting results to say the least. I think the shunter had to jump onto the wagon as it passed him and manualy apply the brakes. Needless to say there were some pretty horrific injuries and fatalities so I suppose it`s understandable that the railways get nervous about the public getting too close. A train can be a pretty unforgiving thing if you get on the wrong side of one.Eagleknight,
My cab rides occured during my early teens ( I`m 52 now ) so it was some time back and railway employees did not seem to be overly concerned about who was wandering around railway property, as long as you behaved you were quite welcome. You might not fare as well these days though, sadly times have changed.
But hey ... we`ve got Train-Sim now !!Thanks for all your input,Keith.

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LAST EDITED ON May-22-02 AT 10:32 AM (EDT)I have been seriously rail fanning for about 20 years, mostly in eastern Virginia and around the CSX and NS in Petersburg, Va. I discovered very quickly that a few rotten apples will spoil the whole barrel. There were the trespassers and there were the thieves who even brought tools with which to dismantle rr property. I learned very quickly to stay on public property and use a good zoom lense and never go on rr property unless offered the opportunity and then with an escort.There is also the liability issue. Here in eastern VA we have a lawyer who is legendary when it comes to suing the CSX and the NS. Railroads are an "attractive nuisance" around which a fence cannot be constructed nor can the property be guarded at all time. This lawyer won almost every case he tried for years. All by jury. The railroad almost always will loose due to deep pockets and the "failure to protect the innocent from the dangerous activity on the property." I have seen engineers with 35 years sue the rr for mental stress due to the noise of the horn. And every person that ever runs in front of a train at a crossing and sued, won!Are you beginning to get the picture?Then there are the vandals and down right mean people that throw rocks at engine crews, deface property and even cut locks on switches to derail passenger trains!Being a rail fan can be a lot of fun, but there are the few idiots out there that tend to try to ruin things for other people!Carlyle

Carlyle Thompson
ACL Purple and Silver

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>LAST EDITED ON May-22-02
>AT 10:32 AM (EDT)
>
but
>there are the few idiots
>out there that tend to
>try to ruin things for
>other people!
>
>Carlyle As there is in almost every walk of life....
I will call the NS Cops when I see kids playing on the tracks down below my house if they don't get off when I yell at them (actually I usually walk up and explain to them what they are doing wrong and why and that is normally the end of it - except for the one smart mouthed Teenager (there are allways a few in any group ) who was smoking (he must have been all of 13) and told me to "go f*ck myself" ) That one was interesting because I drug him by the collar 2 blocks to his house and turned him over to his father who apologized profusely for his son's behavior and then booted him into the house for a "discussion"... The funny thing was the dad was a lawyer!------Chuck Schneider---------

-----"Power for You"-------
http://nalw.macfall.com

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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A couple of months ago, I video taped the entire length of the PATCO High-Speed Line from the front seat of the train. This was to get a good view of the entire line and scenery for creation in MSTS. I must say that I was uncomfortable the entire time due to the changed atmosphere regarding public access facilities. I was prepared to answer many questions about what I was doing and why. I even had a letter of references in case I was hauled off and interrogated! Fortunately, nothing like that happened and the operator of the train was very accommodating and friendly. He did ask me why I was video taping and I explained it was for a model railroad. He let me video tape his control panel too.I find that if you are pleasant and honest with railway officials, they will be pleasant and friendly in return.- Andrew PATCO Hi-Speed Line

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Speaking as a real railroader, the issue isn't railfans per se, its the few idiots in that group who spoil it for the others.
Liablity is a very big issue. If you are killed or injured while railfanning, there is the potential for massive lawsuits, which are expensive, and hard to avoid, even if you can the person affected was trespassing. Ask any engineer who has almost
hot someone who was trying to gte that "perfect picture" what they think of railfans.
Story. When 2816 was returning to Calgary, I was drafted by CP Police to help out with crowd control at Edworthy Park, which has a pedestrian crossing. We were doing our best to be open and friendly, and promote rail saftey. We set up a photo line 25 feet back from the tracks, and all the railfans who were there were really good about it, lots of friendly chats and questions, except for this one bozo. He shows up with a camera and tripod,
and has a fairly substantial telephoto. Wearing an engineer;s cap that you couldn't see for RR pins, a demin jacket with RR patches and an attitude that would choke a bull. Sets up two feet off the ballast. When I politely ask him to move to the photo line (after showing him RR id), he tears a strip off me,
saying he's a "safe distance" back, and he's not touching the ballast, so he's on public property. I point ot the facth that the right of way here extends 50 feet back from either side, and is fenced and posted, and that 2 feet is nowhere near safe.
After much argument on his part, I tell him, he can move and have a nice chat with me, or he can speak to my friend Mikey, you know, the guy over there, in black, with the shaved head and the big gun? He moves.. Did he get any pics? I doubt it, he changed camera positions more than most people change socks.
Another huge problem is theft. As someome said above, there are too many railfans who take "souvenirs". What really ticks me of is folks who jog along the tracks, complete with Walkmans.. Stupid!!
The RR's don't hate railfans, on;ly the stupid ones who endanger not only themselves, but also RR personnel. SO be careful, be courteous, most times you won't have a problem.cheers
Harold

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No attempt at one-upmanship here, but back in the early 90's, the Amtrak Colonial hit a dump truck about six miles north of the Newport News station where it begins its run each morning. Very serious wreck with many injuries.A couple of years later, a couple of idiots cut a switch lock very near the same location and caused the inbound Colonial to derail around 8 p.m. at about 45 mph. If my memory serves me correct, they got the idea to derail the train from the previous collision.The idoits were "railfans." Very devious to say the least. They had to have studied railroading a little because they knew to cut the lock and wait until the engine had passed the green signal north of the switch before moving the switch points. The signal was far enough away that the engineer did not see them throw the switch. Thanks to an alert engineer who saw that the switch points were aligned to the siding, he went into emergency and was able to slow down some before derailing.Somehow, the Amtrak, CSX, and Newport News police departments were able to get some leads and arrest the idiots and they are spending several years behind bars.It is no wonder that rr people are suspect of anyone "messing around the property!"Carlyle

Carlyle Thompson
ACL Purple and Silver

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I live with my dad down in Cayce, SC. I go to the CSX Cayce terminal ALL the time, i'm actualy going down there in a little while now. But anyway the crews there are very nice. I would be taking pictures of trains and they would wave, One tosed me a csx water bottle one time. So there pretty nice down here. My mom lives in Spartanburg, SC and i also go to the CSX terminal up there to, I actually got to speak with the train master there. So over all CSX is a real good railfan friendly railroad company in my opinian.

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Train crews along apart of the Philly Sub I live next too, (CSX, of course) when I give a wave they always wave back or horn a couple short burst or real LONG burst, bells, and have their ditch lights strobe, I always take Binoculers so they know I'm not going to throw something at their windshield, rather I'm a railfain of course - I've never had any problem with being up on CSX property, Im sure local authorities would understand if that circumstance would arrise which it wont, but you never know. I've taken video camera lots of times too. Train crews are just guys like us, just trying to do their job - I guess that's an easy way to explain itMOW guys didn't mind me being there when they were working - I talked to their foreman/boss and he just told me to be careful when walking around their equipment, he was very nice. I have machining experience, so I know machine safety real good. Though, MOW crews don't play around when it's time to go home, come back and they are gone after they get done shutting their rail equipment off, then a mechanic comes out and does preimtive maitenance and fixes anything for about 2 hours.HOWEVER, I did feel disappointed when an SD50 and a few Tie carrying gondolas were parked on a sidetrack up here and a few kids tresspassed into the cab of that SD50, it makes me being the railfan look bad when a CSX crew comes up and see theirs SD50's windshields busted out and then see's me standing there, ya know? Those kids didn't do anything bad thankfully, they just left the windows open.I've seen CSX workers just come out of nowhere driving down the tracks in a pickup truck or whatnot, they see me standing there but since you know I have binoculars in my hands and Im not doing nothing that they seem is bad they just wave and continue whatever they are doingI would like to get to talk to a train crews and other CSX employees when they are working up here or have to make a short stop for some reasons and whatever, the chances arrise a lot here but I'm kinda nervous about that and wouldn't know what to expect. I want to give them a sense that I know a lot about CSX before they make their opinion to stay with the conversation or tell me to get lost .... I'm sure if you get talking to an experienced engineer or conductor he'll let you have a tour of the cab and what not but chances today of that happening are slim like people say.I kinda figure it all depends on what type of person see's you watching the railroad do its work, Im sure some disgruntled guy might have a problem with it but most wont aslong as you're not throwing rocks at a parked boxcar because you're bored or whatever. I myself stay out of the way when there is a lot of work going on, but I'm not too affraid to watch - it is really cool.

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I have had thankfully brief encounters with Union Pacific security personel. My first encounter was with a UP Special Agent. He was apart of the security team that traveled with UP Olympic Train. He was very polite, and was just simply doing his job...checking things out...My next encounter was with the UP Police. I was sitting on a rock one morning just last week, waiting for a westbound freight to roll by. I think that he was going to ask me what I was doing there when he saw my camera's. He asked if I was from the area, and we started talking about the increase in security and some do's and dont's about public safety, and being a smart railfan. He even told me of a few places where I could get some great pictures. An advantage that I have, is that I know a couple of the guys that work in the yard tower here. I can call in the morning and get an idea of when to expect rail traffic through this area.Part of how they respond to us railfans is how we respond to them. They have concerns that far outweigh our needs, wants, and desires to get closer to something that we enjoy. And as a person that works in security, I have and still work with some not so nice people. If you have an encounter with a not so nice security person...do yourselves a big favor...smile, say thanks, and walk away.Anything more than that, and you give them an oportunity to exercise thier newly found authority. Have a great and safe weekend..........LP

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LAST EDITED ON May-27-02 AT 10:22 AM (EDT)LAST EDITED ON May-27-02 AT 09:46 AM (EDT)Well this happened a couple of nights ago some JACKASSES set a couple of locomotives on fire they were involved in a derailment I tell you guys,I hope the police catches them And make them pay for damages.But hey I admit it I have trespassed a couple of times on or in locomotives around MOW equipment but I have quit,cause I dont want to pay the consequenses.I was a local one day i was talking to some other railfans I think they were they had cameras,the local was approaching a switch to set out some cars he stuck his hand out the window and boom the bird was flying case you guys don't the bird means the finger.What was funny though one took a picture of'em fliping us off.but he got pay back though while swithing the cars he was going to fast backing up& last car derailed and hit the side of a building wish it could have been the police department but no it was a chicken factory I think he was for not paying any attention to what he was doing.And there was another time I was watching a train getting in a crossing.I was surprised it was a woman Engineer I thought she was about to wave her arm of waving at us.But i was all hey baby you can blow my Horn any time she was young probably mid 20's sadly that was the last time I saw'er well, that's my stories.

Jeremy Smith West Plains,MO
BNSF Engineer (In Training)

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I hear ya'There's a place here that I tend to stop on my way to work in the morning and about half the time there are a couple of BNSF engines sitting idle next a warehouse...I would imagine that they're just warming up getting ready for the days work. This time last year I would have thought nothing of climbing up and taking a look, or even try to find the crew. But I steer clear of that situation now. Trouble just loves open doors.The sad thing to me are the youngsters. They hear stories from their parents and grandparents about how nice and friendly the railroad people used to be...they sill are for the most part, but the odds are that these kids are not going to have the same experience that their grandparents or perhaps even their parents did. A sign of the changing times that we now live in.LP

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I can remember one time I was messing around a SD40-2 my favorite locomotive I just had to get inside the cab and so I did wasn't nothing to special.then I saw a flashLight through the mirror I thought oh my god im caught then I ran out the cab after running into the brake wheel I jumped down the steps and ran into some brush I stopped to see who it was a police man checking on the Engine.While running out of the cab I left the door open on accident cause didn't want to get caught and the cop stayed there until the crew came back.After that I quit tresspassing cause its not worth it

Jeremy Smith West Plains,MO
BNSF Engineer (In Training)

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Even though the locomotive crew and police dont own the locomotive, they will still be pretty on the side that you are trying to do something bad and automatically approach with a "These guys are trying to do something bad" always for the most part. I mean, if you were walking up into the cab of your railroads CW6000AC and saw everything screwed up in the cab - windows open and controls messed with, wouldn't you be a little pissed off? Some crews might let you get into a cab if they are idling at a yard or siding that's going to be for a few, but just dont ask them for tours when they are done for the day - railroad employees dont play around when its time to go home >:- )Seeing someone of the train crew like the conductor give you the finger, that's mean but I bet it would look kinda funny if you think about it. Probably a bad day for that guy/gal. Train crew guys are just regular people doing their job, give them credit for that though. I wouldnt think bad about that if I saw that happen, which most CSX train crews here aren't that way

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I'll speak on Cajon Pass. Respect the Railroad Right of Way, and remember all three lines run through the National Forest, and you need to stay on designated routes, which means you do not drive off the roads to get that once in a lifetime photo of #3965/3751/844/4999 and no campfires if you spend the night, carbon from the locomotives start enough fires on their own.John

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I can understand the finger thing. Spending that amount of time riding steel on steel can't be a nice comfy ride. I mean that's got be like sitting on a skateboard for 8 or more hours a day on a gravel road.LP

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